and when? >> they're still trying to figure that out. there's significant debate about the next steps. one thing is that republicans have demanded that democrats go through what's known as the budget reconciliation process. that can circumvent a republican filibuster and be approved by simple majority. that takes a couple weeks to go through, a very arduous process because a flurry of amendment votes would happen on the senate floor, putting democrats in a difficult political spot which is why they've essentially ruled out the process. the other option is to get support from republican senators, get 60 votes. that's not going to happen. today republicans will filibuster that. the other thing is to get agreement so this can be approved on a simple majority basis. there's no agreement for that. now there's serious discussion on going about changes in the senate filibuster rules to allow potential one-time carve out to raise the debt ceiling in order to approve this on a simple majority basis. to do that, they need the support of all 50 democratic senators including joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. they've opposed any changes to the senate filibuster rules. yesterday when i caught up with manchin, i asked him if he was open to the possibility on a carveout. >> the democrats have talked about a carve out. is that something you'd even remotely consider? >> they've got to work through it. let the leaders work it out. they vote on what this country needs. we should take care of our country. >> reporter: he's not saying no there, even though earlier in the week i asked him about the saech issue. he said it's not about the filibuster. that appears to be the only option to avoid the first ever debt default. moments ago i talked to senator dick durbin, the number two in the senate democratic caucus. i asked him about that possibility. he didn't want to go there. instead he said democrats are losing patience with republicans. he's demanding they vote today to move forward on the suspension of the debt ceiling. the next steps could very well a change in the senate procedures. guys. >> manu raju, thank you. let's discuss now with democratic congressman dan kildee, the chief democratic whip for the democratic caucus. thank you for taking this time this morning. >> thank you very much. >> you heard manu say out of democratic leaders in the white house, at least for now reconciliation is off the table. is that your view? >> well, we have to use any tool we can to fix this. the problem is reconciliation takes a long time. it's important to examine sort of the mcconnell position. he says if we go through regular order, they'll block it and force a default. he said we should use reconciliation but still would oppose using that tool. they would vote against it. what i'm frustrated with and i think the american people are is this sort of obsolete, quaint filibuster rule which is a remnant of jim crow, is now getting in the way of us just doing the basics, taking care of business, paying our bills when they're due. the idea that senator mcconnell would see such political gain in the default of the united states' obligations and be willing he would do everything he can to sort of engineer that is almost beyond comprehension. >> you know mitch mcconnell. if your bet is waiting for him to bend, you're going to lose the bet. why don't democrats just see that and use reconciliation noting they don't seem to have 50 votes to break filibuster, with manchin and sinema not loving that option. >> the thing that's frustrating about this is reconciliation takes 50 votes. overlooking the filibuster is 50 votes. one takes a long time. the other one we can do right now. the idea that we would hold on to this filibuster rule when mitch mcconnell ignores it every chance he gets, the 2017 tax bill. set that aside, because that was reconciliation. the confirmation of supreme court justices to lifetime appointments, mitch mcconnell looks the other way when it comes to filibuster. why democrats apply rules to ourselves that republicans repeatedly ignore i think is beyond logic. we ought to just face up to the facts that the republicans don't want to govern. we have 50 votes in the senate. we ought to use those 50 snats to meet the minimum obligations. whether it's through reconciliation or by making an exception to the filibuster, it's still 50 votes. we may as well get it done now. >> let me ask you, is a carveout actually a practical thing? there is a view that, listen, even if you say that carve out is just about raising the debt limit, that in reality that opens the flood gates. so what's to stop breaking the filibuster for voting rights or any other legislative priority? >> i would advocate for doing that, so i'm probably not the right person to answer that question. -- get rid of it altogether. when the american people support moving forward on voting rights, we ought not have some old antiquated tool that is not in the constitution be in the way of us expressing the will of the american people. so i think this idea that we have to hang on to it because if we don't as democrats it will be used against us in another time is laughable, because they already ignore it when it suits their purposes. mitch mcconnell does that routinely when he's in the majority. >> okay. let's talk about where the budget stands. you have president biden saying we ain't going to get $3.5 trillion. you've had this number floated of 1.9 to 2.2. i know it's not just about the number, but the constituent parts of the number. given the blowup within the democratic party last week and public disagreement, is there any movement towards a compromise figure in that range? >> i think there is movement, just from the signals that we're hearing both from comments made by senator manchin and the chair of the progressive caucus, congresswoman jayapal. we understand some middle ground has to be found. we're not quite there yet, but i think it's important to keep this in context. this is the democratic process, even if it's only occurring within the democratic party. this is the give and take, the argument over policy, the argument over scale. when we talk about this, a lot of people refer to this as a breakdown or dysfunction. i think it's the absolute epitome of functionality, we're arguing out our differences. we're not storming the capitol for a violent overthrow. we're arguing out our points. that's a good thing. >> i'm not going to pretend that storming the capitol is better in terms of dom oemocracy. you guys aren't doing great in terms of how the public sees this. republicans want this, just on the top line figure. forget the constituent parts, universal pre-k, child tax credit and so on. how do you turn that around? how do you win back some sort of public support to say, hey, this is what we're pushing for, not pushing to write a blank check. >> i think we have to realize that in this moment we have to argue this out. the most eloquent message is if we get something over the finish line. there's nothing quite as eloquent as a paycheck, as food on the table, as allowing people to get child care so they can get back into the workforce. that's the most eloquent message we can deliver. on the short term, it's difficult. if we can deliver for the american people, that message is overwhelming. >> just quickly, will you have that message of success by october 31st, the new deadline? >> i believe we will. i think we're moving in that direction. the president's engagement is making a difference. i was with him yesterday here in michigan. i think he can bring us together. it's not easy. we have different points of view, but i think we all recognize the common goal and i think we'll get there. >> congressman dan kildee, we'll have you back as we get closer to the end of the month. >> thanks, jim. facebook ceo mark zuckerberg on the defense after a former employee told a senate panel the company is choosing profits over people. whistle-blower frances haugen testifying that they know how to make the platform safer but hasn't done so. >> zuckerberg, not surprising, responded saying, quote, at the heart of these acquisitions is the idea that we prioritize profit over safety and well-being. that just not true. donie sullivan joining us now. lawmakers are calling for zuckerberg to testify, which he's done before, on the hill. this at a more precarious time with bipartisan support, it seems, for some sort of regulation. will that happen? >> possibly. verg zuckerberg posted a 1300 word screed trying to undermine this. senator blumenthal saw that and said, if you've got so much to say, if you think this whistle-blower is wrong, come speak to us. this is what blumenthal had to say this morning. >> if he disagreements with francis haugen or the whistle-blower, if he wants to explain these documents, his own research, his own reports, that show how they're putting profits ahead of people and endangering children, he should come tell it to our committee and to the american people himself. >> her testimony yesterday really resonated. it was quite compelling. she was speaking like a human being. oftentimes when tech executives go to capitol hill, they sort of sound like robe bots. we're going through a period where there's going to be this back-and-forth. but pulling it all back out, the issue is still on the platform, particularly the issue for children and young people. we should not forget that. >> even some of the suggestions that have been thrown out there. francis haugen said maybe part of one solution would be amending section 230. we spoke with tom wheeler who said we need a federal agency for oversight and we have to prepare better for what's coming along. the reality is this is a problem that needs to be addressed yesterday, not even today. that immediacy, that urgency, it's still sort of in question as to what's actually going to be actionable. >> it's quite scary. we've had many people on air over the past 24 hours, researchers saying there are terrible, terrible things on these platforms now, particularly if you are a young teenager. i think what's interesting about all this, though, is what haugen has effectively done and moved the conversation beyond where facebook wanted it to be. they like talking about -- they're okay talking about saying we'll ban this group and ban this, won't do this, won't do this. she's getting at the algorithm. she's saying we need transparency on these algorithms. we need to know how and why you're feeding this stuff. that's why facebook is here, it's the algorithm that makes their money. >> she's also getting at facebook's credibility. >> she is. >> hugely. >> from the inside. it seemed democratic and republican lawmakers were listening to her yesterday. donie sullivan, thanks very much. still to come this hour, an unusual disclosure from the cia. we'll have more on the morning times reports that a troubling number of informants in other countries have been killed or captured. details that the isis-k bomber who killed 13 american service members and dozens of civilians was released just days before that attack. a major raid in new york. why the president of the nypd's second largest union had to resign. what we're learning about the investigation targeting the union. your new pharmacy is here. and here. and here, too. it's here to help you save time and money and trips to the pharmacy. it's here to get you the medication you need when you need it. who knew it could be this easy? your new pharmacy is amazon pharmacy. i'm still drawn to what's next. even with higher stroke risk due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfan that's a trail i want to take. eliquis. eliquis reduces stroke risk . and s less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis has both. n't stop taking eliquis without talking to your doctor as this may increase your risk of stroke. eliquis 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ago, many were exposed and killed, frankly, by beijing. that was the result of a brief. i wonder, do we know, is it just bad practice that is leading to the loss of these acgents, a breach, a combination of those things? >> it could be a combination of those things. i would guess the issue is a broader matter because i think we're seeing this across the agency based on this report, and that is that, look, we've been fighting terrorists and insurgents in war zones and other hostile environments for 20 years. that means there are a lot of officers who entered the agency and who have only or largely had just that experience, and in those environments, what happens is the ci risk goes down, the counterintelligence risk. there are not -- you're not working against a foreign government that has technology and human resources and so many things to use against you, to discover you and stop your operations. you're working against a terrorist organization, for example. they have certain tools. but the ci risk goes down and the physical risk goes up. so in those environments, you need to do things to protect yourself physically. you're often working alone and you're worried about being kidnapped and tortured and ambushed, all these things. the things you do to increase your physical security go up. those things generally make your ci risk mitigation decrease, but you're willing to make that tradeoff because your life is what matters most and the ci risk is low. what's happened now is we still have terrorists to fight and to defeat, but now we've got to focus more on our strategic adversaries, china and russia, et cetera, and that requires a different skill set. if you're operating against them, those operations require a different skill set. i remember during my time i spent a lot of time fighting terrorists, but then transitioned to working against some of our major strategic adversaries. i had to be retrained and retooled. i think that's the critical thing here. we've got to make sure we're taking the time to retrain the officers who are moving on to different missions with different kinds of operations. >> there's a lot to be concerned about i think, bottom line, especially for a lot of people reading it. we do want to talk to you about, as we mentioned, just announced you're running it's interesting when we look at where things stand this morning, there's so much talk about how much hold president trump will still have over the republican party. you're running as an independent. how concerned are you about what that means in utah? >> well, look, i'm concerned about the polarization in this country, the rise of extremism that is making it impossible for us to govern ourselves. we've got a different way of doing things here in utah. utah was originally founded by people who had fled religious persecution, and they came to this desert where many other people who had traveled to the west coast to settle the west coast, et cetera, passed over this land because they thought it was too harsh and impossible to live in. we came here, my ancestors came here because they were seeking refuge and freedom and opportunity, and they had to work together in order to survive here, literally. and because of that, still today in utah we have this way of leadership that tries to find common ground while still sticking to principle in order to solve problems, frankly, because we have to. we live in a harsh environment and that's what we have to do. i think our country needs that. we're not getting that out of our current senator in this seat, senator mike lee, who has become a part of this divisive politics that dominate our country, but we have a better way. that's what i'm running to take to washington on behalf of the people of utah. >> okay. i appreciate the thought. i'm sure many of our viewers do. the fact is the republican party remained enthralled of donald trump. you see that in the polling, in republican leaders who expressed criticism or even alarm in the past, like a nick kki haley. is there a realistic challenge to trump as we face 2024? >> it's not naive. it's what we need. if we're not going to do this kind of campaign that seeks to unite people in the face of the kind of division that you're describing, then we're going to see more chaos, more dysfunction, compounding crises that are making our -- that are negatively impacting our quality of life, weakening the republic. we have to do this. by the way, part of the answer is to unite people, to build new political coalitions. that's why i'm running as an independent. this is the only way to win in this race, and i think it's the kind of leadership that our state and that our country needs, uniting republicans, uniting democrats, uniting independents and members of third parties. we have to be willing to build new coalitions. i think that's partially why the republican party is struggling right now, because it's unwilling to build new coalitions that could put it on healthier ground and more competitive ground. that's what i'm doing as an independent because that's what utah needs and i think that's what the country needs, too. >> evan mcmullin, appreciate you joining us this morning. thank you. >> thank you. still ahead, taiwan says tensions with china are at the most serious point they've been in 40 years. we're going to have the reality check from the region. there's real alarm there, coming up. i don't just play someone brainy on tv - i'm an actual neuroscientist. and i love the science behind neuriva plus. unlike ordinary memory supplements, neuriva plus fuels six key indicators of brain performance. more brain performance? yes, please! neuriva. think bigger. jeff's been to the bottom of the ocean. the tops of mountains. and wherever this guy runs off to. a life well lived should continue at home. with home instead care, older adults can stay home, safe, and happy. home instead. to us, it's personal. you have the best pizza in town and the 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new details this morning about that suicide attack in kabul that killed 13 u.s. service members and dozens of afghans. cnn learned the isis-k bomber who carried out the attack had been released from the abandoned bagram air base. three u.s. officials say that happened when the taliban took control of the area. we heard this morning the taliban are conducting raids against isis-k in kabul. >> cnn international correspondent clarissa ward joining us from kabul. we know many thousands of people were released from prison going back to trump's original deal with the taliban. now you have the reality of the taliban policing a terror group like isis-k. i wonder what kind of future that portends there. >> reporter: i think the first question this raises that everyone in washington will be talking about is the issue of whether the u.s. should have handed over bagram or whether there was a way to hand it over with some kind of guarantee that the more dangerous terrorists -- there were hundreds of very dangerous terrorists being held in bagram at the prison in the air base, whether they could have been moved to a different facility or whatever the case may be. we did hear from the defense secretary lloyd austin, listen, if we wanted to keep control of bagram, that would have entailed leaving 5,000 troops on the group. we know that abdul rehman al loghri, it was the morning we took control of kabul. we were concerned about the security situation because we knew the prisons , parwan and pul-e-charkhi, the taliban took control to let all their priszers in out, but in the process of hundreds of isis-k prisoners potentially also flooded out. now we see the taliban is dealing with the aftermath or the consequences of that because there have been a string of attacks, the most prominently recently the explosion at the mosque here in kabul, but also explosions and attacks in jalalabad. the taliban have been responding with raids here in the capital and throughout the east of the country, but it appears they face a pretty significant challenge now in the form of the isis-k insurgency, jim. >> no question. so much there for the people to bear. clarissa ward, thank you. taiwan's defense minister warning china could have the capability to launch a full-scale attack on them by 2025. china has thrown multiple aircraft into the defense zone in the past few days, more than 150. >> president biden say he choke with chinese president xi jinping, raised his concerns about taiwan. another meeting is set to take place today between the u.s. and china in switzerland. cnn international correspondent ivan watson is in hong kong. ivan, the volume of these air missions over taiwan airspace, plus the genuine concern expressed by taiwanese leaders about a chinese invasion. what is the level of concern right now that that's imminent? >> reporter: it was such that this defense minister was meeting with taiwanese lawmakers to discuss a new military budget, $8.5 billion, with the proposal of taiwan building long-range missiles. the argument he was making is that if china wanted to, they could invade taiwan now. we'd make them pay a price. the price wouldn't be as high in 2025. china's population is 1.4 billion people. taiwan is a democratically ruled island of 4 million people. china views taiwan as a breakaway region of china even though the communist party in china has never ever ruled taiwan. the flights that were being conducted. a lot of records were broken over a long holiday weekend in china. the biggest record was 56 chinese warplanes, that's bombers, fighters and other aircraft coming into taiwan's air defense identification zone. that tapered on tuesday to just one warplane. we haven't had any reports of such military flights today. they have caused concern not only in taiwan where you have the defense minister saying this is as tense as i've seen the relations in 43 years of my career, but they also raise concern with the state department putting out 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back in the spring when we did our research, it showed positive messages would get people vaccinated. you want to hug friends and family, want everyday life to go back to normal. they said their more recent research showed a different kind of approach would work, an approach that really informed people that, hey, tlsh actual consequences to not getting vaccinated. we're going to introduce you to people who did not get vaccinated and who suffered those consequences. let's take a look at parts of some of these new ads. >> i've been in the hospital for 76 days now. by the grace of god, i'm still here. it was a lot of dark times. i died three times. they gave me a 5% chance of living. >> i got covid. i was intubated and in a coma for 11 days. >> two months ago i contracted the delta variant of covid-19. i haven't been the same man since. i went from being a man who loved to play outside with his children and exercise to a man who barely has enough energy to make it through the day. >> reporter: so these are real people. these are not actors. the hope is that these personal messages from these covid-19 survivors will resonate with the nearly one of four americans who still has not gotten even a single covid-1919. erica. >> let's hope it breaks through. elizabeth cohen, thanks very much. that message to get people vaccinated is important, but perhaps nowhere is it more needed than in rural america where the vaccination rate is much lower, the mortality rate is double what's seen in urban areas. new data from hhs shows eight states are still at 85% icu capacity. this despite the downward trend we've been talking about in overall cases, but most importantly in hospitalizations. alan morgan is the ceo of national rural health association. good to have you with us. as we look at those numbers, it highlights in many ways issues that have always existed. we know there tend to be people with more comorbidities, perhaps less healthy and with less access to health care. covid has made that worse. what is your biggest concern this morning? >> well, looking at new mortality data just coming out, it's striking in both its disturbing nature and shocking nature. unfortunately it's not surprising. if you live in a rural town and catch covid today, you are more than twice as likely of dying from it than your urban counterparts. that just indicates our strategy to date has president been working, and the fact that you mentioned, that the rates are going down nationally, we're entering a much more disturbing phase of this crisis when it comes to rural americans. >> part of that more disturbing phase has to do with staffing. we talked about staffing shortages around the country, but specifically in rural areas this is a concern. you cited in recent days you have concerns about how vaccine mandates may impact staffing issues. >> yeah, that's absolutely right. because of the workforce shortages we're seeing, it's imperative that all hospital workers become vaccinated today. they really are community assets. we need them healthy and on the job. saying that, we have to recognize we're seeing in some of our rural hospitals unvaccinated rates as high as 40%. it's not a hypothetical. once vaccine mandates go into effect, we are going to see health service difficult rupgss. there needs to be plans put in place by the federal and state governments to deal with these workforce shortages as they arise. >> i know you point to this national disconnect in general, again, one of the many things exacerbated, and now we see in a spotlight because of covid, but the disconnect between rural and urban areas in this country. with this increased spotlight, do you see any real action that could lead to change? >> well, i think the important thing is change how we're talking about this. the focus needs to get away from what the federal government thinks we should be doing, and it needs to be on leadership within these rural communities. what do we need to do to keep our businesses open and our health care up and running? i think that change in conversation has to happen, number one. and number two, we have to get the vaccination rates up. >> the vaccination rates so key. the biden administration announcing an additional billion dollars in at-home testing. how could better access to at-home testing make a difference in rural communities? >> testing is of paramount importance. these rural communities, we have to know what is the prevalence of covid in our rural communities. so testing, tracing, efforts towards vaccination is all forw understand that rural is not a small version of urban and target federal and state initiatives toward these rural communities. >> alan morgan, good to have you with us, thank you. gabby petito's family believes her fiance is still alive. hear why they're calling laundrie and his parents cowards, after the break. listerine® cleans virtually 100%. helping to prevent gum disease and bad breath. never settle for 25%. always go 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(music) ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ (music) ♪ i think to myself ♪ ♪ what a wonderful world ♪ the outspoken president of the second largest police union in new york city has now resigned. ed mullins stepping down after the fbi raided his home and office at the union's new york city headquarters. this is in connection with an ongoing investigation. >> cnn's brynn gingras has been following this from new york. do we know what this investigation is about. >> reporter: we're still trying to get a better idea exactly what investigators were looking for during the raid. we know the search warrants are sealed, so that would give us a little more information. it's obvious that there were some serious credible allegations against ed mullins, enough for investigators to get that search warrant. we saw them carrying out a number of boxes from those two loca locations, the headquarters of the union and also the home of ed mullins. also it's very notable that within the same day, the executive board of that union met and asked for mullins to resign which he agreed to, all this coming out really in less than 24 hours. i can tell you there are a lot of members of that union that i've spoken to who really felt like they were left in the dark yesterday, not knowing what was going on with their union president who has held that post for nearly two decades, only receiving a letter later in the evening talking about his resignation. i'll read part of it. the nature and scope of this criminal investigation has yet to be determined, however, it is clear that president mullins is apparently the target of the federal investigation. we have no reason to believe that any other member of the sba is involved or targeted in this matter. as you guys said, this is a very outspoken president for the union for the last 20 years, not making friends with many people in the city, especially democrats like the mayor who had a news conference today and talked about the allegations he still faces at a disciplinary level within the nypd which the commissioner didn't comment on. >> brynn, thank you. tensions ratcheting even harder between the families of brian laundrie and gabby petito. laundrie's sister cassie says she hasn't seen her brother in weeks. if she did, she would turn him in. the attorney for her parents made a change now. they now say laundrie left to go hiking on september 13th, a day earlier than the family's original version of events. >> meantime the petito family telling dr. phil they believe brian laundrie is in hiding, and they're calling on him and his parents, calling them, quote, cowards. cnn correspondent jean casarez joining us. it doesn't sound like there's a lot of direct communication between these two families. is it now just out in public? >> not only that. there is not communication between cassie, the sister of brian, and the parents. cassie said i'm going to say some things. she said she wants brian to come forward. she wants law enforcement to find him if he doesn't turn himself in because she has answers. she's saying on august 17th he actually flew from salt lake city back to florida to go through a storage unit that he and gabby had. she said when he came back on september 1st, he did come over to her house. she also said on september 6th when the family went to the desoto campgrounds, that she went with her husband and children and sat around the campfire and had a meal and smores and things. one thing she's not saying is any conversation she had with brian because the obvious is there, especially at the campground. gabby is not there. now, the fbi, she says, knows everything. they quite possibly are asking her to not speak about everything. she's declining to talk about that, but her parents, she says, have been told by the family attorney to not say anything. but does that mean including communicating with gabby's family. listen to what gabby's family said -- her father, when they realized that gabby was missing and they didn't know where she was. >> you called, you called, you called. >> i can't tell you how many times. >> he called. >> what did you get? >> nothing. >> voice mails. >> then i would send texts on top of that. >> no response. >> one of the texts, i'm ' going to call the police, just letting you know, because we have no idea. no responses. a normal parent, when you text someone that they're going to call the cops because you can't find your child, they would reply. >> nothing. >> cnn is in communication with the laundrie family attorney, and we're continuing to try to find out all answers to these questions that are posed by others. >> just heartbreaking for petito's family. thanks to all of you for joining us today. i'm jim sciutto. >> i'm erica hill. 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