And now terrorism charges. How does she see the rule of law in pakistan and her country's future? imaan mazarihazir, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you for having me. Now, you have become well known in your own country as a human rights lawyer, including taking on key institutions of the state. I wonder, first, what it was in your early life that led you to that work? i think, when you grow up in pakistan, you see a lot of power imbalances. You see the constant derailment of democracy. You see injustices being perpetrated by the state and its agencies against the most vulnerable, whether that's the baloch ethnic community or that's the pashtun ethnic community or sindhis. So you grow up in that environment, and i feel that you're very motivated to fight against that injustice because you see it on such a massive scale. How would you describe the state of human rights in the country today? i would say that the state of human rights is deplorable. We don't have a democracy in pakistan right now, we're living in an undeclared martial law. There's a constant assault on our civil liberties. There's no right to speak if you speak there, the consequences entail enforced disappearances by state agencies, extrajudicial executions, if you belong to the baloch or pashtun community, and a series of other sorts of assaults, whether through registration of criminal cases against you on terrorism charges or other similar, trumpedup charges. So, this is a long list of very serious accusations that you have set out there. Could we focus on one particular issue, for which you are probably best known in your work in human rights, and that is enforced disappearances, which you mentioned. Categorise that for us. What is an enforced disappearance? so, enforced disappearances, much like anywhere else in the world where they're practised, are carried out by state agencies, by the state of pakistan and agencies operating under the control of the federal government of pakistan. And what we see is the same thing we see in any other part of the world, which is the denial of information on the fate and whereabouts of the person that's been forcibly disappeared in pakistan. Unfortunately, what we see is that, even when people are recovered or released after many years, there's an atmosphere, a climate of fear that deters them from identifying their abductors. And there is a general unwillingness on the part of the constitutional courts to hold the perpetrators accountable, because the perpetrators are from the powerful intelligence agencies. So you see a culture of impunity in pakistan for enforced disappearances, where, despite the fact that there is something like over 10,000 registered cases with the commission of inquiry on enforced disappearances, there is no accountability of perpetrators to date. The commission that you're referring to was set up in 2011, i think, as a governmentinitiated commission of inquiry at that time. Is that number credible, 10,000 enforced disappearances? i think this is a very small figure, in fact. The actual figures are something that we can't even imagine, because we can't even begin to imagine the kind of fear that people live in. I know of people who have been forcibly disappeared, whose families did not speak up, whose families were told that if they spoke up and reported the cases, their loved ones would be killed in the state's custody, other family members would be abducted, raped, killed. And so you see a general sort of fear, because of which, there's underreporting of figures. And then. If you also see the commission of inquiry on enforced disappearances' performance in itself, my view is that it's fuelled a culture of impunity, because it's issued something like over 600 production orders. Production orders are issued to intelligence agencies or law enforcement agencies to produce the detinue before the commission, and those production orders are rarely, if ever, complied with. So, these accusations of involvement in abductions and disappearances have quite frequently been levelled at powerful institutions, including the army, and they have regularly been denied. Is there any context that you would acknowledge in which some of these take place for example, the fight against extremism and terrorism? i think that, if that were the case, if the state of pakistan was picking up people who were involved in these activities whether that's religious extremism or some form of terrorism then you wouldn't see this sort of increase in terrorism. And then, if you specifically look at the situation of balochistan over there, what you see is the same sort of pattern, where because there is no civilian structure of governance, there's no accountability, and people are picked up without a trace for ten, 20 years. So, you see that despite the fact that a commission has been formed, despite the fact that the high courts exist and you can file habeas corpus petitions because of the lack of accountability of perpetrators, the practice continues, because those engaging in it know that they are the most powerful in the country, and that noone can dare to question them. And then, when they are questioned, as they were recently by the islamabad high court in several missing persons cases, then you see things that are happening now, like attempted introduction of constitutional packages to limit the powers of the high court to deal with habeas corpus petitions. So, how worrying and dangerous is the overall situation for pakistan that you see at the moment? you are describing serious challenges to the rule of law, some of which, the institutions that you mentioned would deny. However, there is a growing problem, isn't there, with the insurgency in the southwestern province of balochistan. Just last month, in 48 hours of attacks, there was something like 70 people killed, more than 20 civilians among them. So, for balochistan, i think that one needs to assess it from this perspective that, in balochistan, who does the insurgency benefit? and my answer to that would be the state of pakistan, because the state of pakistan continues, particularly the military, to demand more resources to establish its control. And this is an excuse that the state of pakistan uses. So, for example, if you look at the situation in balochistan and talk about enforced disappearances, how does the state think that recruitment for separatist groups is going to be reduced if it continues to target innocent persons? and you see that the state's response is not in conformity with the laws of war, because they do not target the combatants, they do not target the baloch liberation army, the separatist groups, they target the civilians that they forcibly disappeared who are in their custody. So what happens is that the baloch liberation army will have a terrorist attack. And in response to that, the state will start extrajudicially executing people who have been forcibly disappeared for many years and throwing their mutilated corpses in various parts of balochistan, which only increases recruitment for separatist groups. So, one has to ask themselves, who is the beneficiary of this conflict? who gets more resources and who gets more control? it's not the baloch people. And to some extent, it's not even the separatist groups, because they're engaging in this war with the state. 0n enforced disappearances, you have had clients right across the country, far beyond balochistan. Can we look at your work through the lens of one recent case as an illustration of the kind of work that you do? the journalist and poet fahad shah went missing from his home in may this year. He had been known for social media posts critical of the army. What happened to him that made you get involved in his case? so, his wife reached out to me the morning after his abduction and informed me of the manner in which he had been abducted, and that she had approached the local police station but as usual, as a matter of routine in these cases, no first information report was registered regarding his abduction. We approached the islamabad high court, which we're very grateful, took a very proactive stance and took a position that many constitutional courts have not had the courage or clarity to take, and they ensured, the court ensured that fa had was released. However, what we saw was, again, what we see as a matter of routine in these cases, that when someone is abducted and when a habeas corpus petition is filed, and there's international pressure, domestic pressure through the media and civil society groups, the person is produced in the custody of the state in either a terrorism case, a cyberrelated case, or other such trumpedup charges, and that's exactly what happened with fahad. They showed him in the custody of azad jammu and kashmir police, and then they claimed before the islamabad high court that the islamabad high court doesn't have jurisdiction because the territory of azad jammu and kashmir is a sovereign territory. But eventually, because the islamabad high court had taken a position that the isi sector commander was to appear, the interservices intelligence, the sector commander was supposed to appear, and as a result of that, that generated enough pressure to ensure his release. And it's my view that, if all constitutional courts point the finger where the blame actually rests, on these intelligence agencies, there will be many more recoveries. Would you say that that is fairly typical of the kind of case that you work on? in that case, the courts did say that your client, fahad shah, was illegally arrested and they ordered him to be produced. He remains, i think, charged with serious offences, including antiterror legislation. But does that example not tell us that there is a check and balance on power? yes, i believe there is to some degree, with constitutional courts, but here, it's very subjective because it depends. We have another case that's ongoing in the lahore high court, rawalpindi bench, at this time, which concerns the enforced disappearance of a former deputy superintendent of adiala jail, mr muhammad akram. So, he's a serving officer in the prison department, and he was forcibly disappeared on independence day. And yet you see that the lahore high court has not been able to ensure his recovery because it hasn't gone down the route that constitutional courts must go down to ensure recovery. There's no point in asking the police or attributing blame onto the police when the entire country is well aware of who is behind these disappearances. So, today, your. . . Yourface and your name is very well known in pakistan in connection with your work. Almost all of these kinds of cases, many of them, at least, have your name attached to them. What has the involvement meant for the rest of your life? you were yourself arrested last year. I was arrested, and i'm still facing criminal and antiterrorism charges, trumpedup charges, false cases, because i do speak my mind, because i take up cases of this nature. And i think that there's a lot of threats that one does have to face. You're living under constant surveillance, and you're also being subjected to threats of rape, of abduction, of recalling, of my bail because i'm on bail in three cases right now, including two antiterrorism cases. So, this is a constant threat. But i would like to highlight that, as a lawyer, or as a woman who belongs to the federal capital, i still come from a lot of privilege. The thousands of families across pakistan whose loved ones are disappeared, they don't have that privilege and so they're dealing with a daytoday situation where their otherfamily members are being picked up, where they're being put on watch lists, where they're being put on the fourth schedule under the antiterrorism act. So the threats that they have to face on a daytoday basis are much more severe and serious. You do come from a wellknown family, and your mother served as a minister under imran khan when he was prime minister. Tell me about these threats, rape and abduction, that you face. Are these issued to you? was this when you were in custody that you were threatened in that way, or are they expressed to you in some other way? so, when i was in custody, i was approached by four officials, two belonging to the interservices intelligence, one belonging to the military intelligence and one belonging to the intelligence bureau, all of whom threatened me that i would be shot while walking down the street if i didn't agree to their demands. And their demands, while i was in custody, was that i give an affidavit and i make a video saying that what i said about the pakistan army isn't true, and i support and respect the armed forces and i retract my statement. And i was threatened by them that if i did not do this, first, they would send me to mach jail in balochistan, which is a jail notorious for physical torture on political dissidents and politicians. And i was informed that the courts and the judges are there, so there's no point resisting because there's nothing that i'm doing it for and there's nothing that i'll gain from it. So these sorts of threats were given to me while i was in custody. A rifle was pointed at my head and i was repeatedly asked to give my phone password. Threats of torture were made by a police official. I was put in a room with a police official who had an iron rod, who was hitting that iron rod on the table and demanding that i give up my phone password, which i refused. So, i've been dealing with these threats in custody and outside custody, as well. This is not the first time, and i think that these state agencies also need to realise that when people do the kind of work that i do, they're not going to be deterred by such threats. And you weren't, at no moment in that room, were you deterred or frightened? i, honestly speaking, wasn't scared. I was very angry when they were threatening me in that room, and i expressed that anger to them, as well. And i told them that i would rather die than accede to their demands, because their demands were unfair and their hold on power is unconstitutional. So they can keep me injail. They can recall my bail. I know that they have all the power in the world, but that doesn't mean that people in pakistan will stop resisting. And in pakistan, the history of pakistan is such that the women of pakistan have always been at the forefront of resistance, and i intend to also remain there. We don't have a specific response in relation to your case from the organisations that you're talking about but the case and the charges against you continue. I want to go back to what you alluded to, your comments about the pakistan army, which generated a lot of publicity and which no doubt led to your arrest. You had addressed a rally, hadn't you, a rights rally, and you said to the people who were gathered there that they were being treated as terrorists, whereas the real terrorists, you said, are sitting in ghq, ghq, being pakistan's military headquarters. Do you regret speaking about the army in that way? at least one government minister said he thought that your words were condemnable because the army, he said, were the ones who were fighting terrorism. Ijust have one question in response to this, and that is that how have the terrorists, the tehreeketaliban pakistan, returned to those areas, those areas to which those people belong who i was addressing? how have they returned there if there is no involvement of the state or its agencies? and what kind of military operations have been launched there for the last many years, and money and resources have been taken for those military operations people have been made internally displaced persons. People are under threat both from the taliban and from the state. So i don't think that i did anything wrong by voicing a legitimate grievance of the people over there and i think that this grievance has now been voiced by local police in those