serious. that very gloomy and presidential look that they are both trying to affect. but, oh my goodness, as they continue to stand at the podium, i think many people in america, in fact, the majority, almost certainly, will watch this debate will be wondering what on earth is going on. they turned to leave, and at that stage, cnn catch to a wider shot as the president and former president trump leaves the stage. they don't go close to each other. joe biden is there, and there are family members with him on the stage. but the whole thing has been the most rambling, peculiar affair. someone in a focus group, quite early on in the course of the debate said it was a choice between the circus or the nursing home. and there has been a feeling among many people watching that, number one, the questions that were asked were not answered, but number two, this is probably the biggest story of the night, president biden did not look presidential. he did not hit home with the points that he needed to hit home. and there are bound to be questions now about whether he needs to be replaced. welcome to americast. americast. from bbc news. it isjust in, in the americast studio in a worldwide headquarters in london where i have been watching the debate. it is the middle of the night here, but it still been an enormous night where it has been a pleasure to be up. i think i'm right in saying that it is going to be an episode of comings and goings, i should say, at the moment. neither anthony or sarah are with me. they are both in atlanta where the debate was they are both going to join us. sarah is actually in the spin room at the moment hearing what the various people are saying about it. mills tyler taylor is on the line. he is a very good friend of the podcast. kick us off with the things that stood out for you. the thing is people will focus on. the things that will have legs and could make a difference. the that will have legs and could make a difference. .,, that will have legs and could make a difference. ., , ., , difference. the most obvious thing at the beginning _ difference. the most obvious thing at the beginning of— difference. the most obvious thing at the beginning of the _ difference. the most obvious thing at the beginning of the debate - difference. the most obvious thing at the beginning of the debate wasi at the beginning of the debate was the energy of the two candidates. i have said going into this debate that they would be three things to watch. age, range and appeals to populism. all three of those subjects definitely hits during this debate. age was the first and the most obvious. the relative vigour of the candidates is something that is going to be much discussed. donald trump has sometimes had low energy debate performances. they wanted to make sure that in comparison tojoe biden, he seemed vigorous. tonight, he did. the second category i meant, range. —— rage. even though he did. the second category i meant, range. —— rage. even thouthoe biden�*s coating start and mixing up the numbers, he did start to get into his stride after a while. you saw into his stride after a while. you sanoe biden excrete exchanged barbs with donald trump. they were almost as powerful as can's comment about biden not finishing his sentences. it came up multiple times in this debate, which is the line that donald trump's chief of staff, john kelly had said, he said the donald trump called foreign soldiers suckers and losers. questionnaires brought that up tonight. joe biden pushed back very forcefully against that comment. he ended that by saying that donald trump was the secker and the loser. it felt like a schoolyard brawl. it wasjoe biden�*s most powerful moment in the debate. there were moments where he should have hit home and he didn't. i was thinking about abortion and january the 6th. i thinking about abortion and january the 6th. 4' thinking about abortion and january the 6th. ~ ., ., ., the 6th. i think one of the other thins the 6th. i think one of the other things that _ the 6th. i think one of the other things that was _ the 6th. i think one of the other things that was missing - the 6th. i think one of the other things that was missing was - the 6th. i think one of the other things that was missing was the surprisingly limited discussion about the fact that donald trump is about the fact that donald trump is a convicted criminal and are still facing three other pending trials. a lot of people expected this debate would open with nods to the january the 6th insurrection and donald trump being a convicted criminal. those things did not appear until halfway through. that really set the tone for the debate. in a lot of weighted normalised what folks think has been quite an abnormal period in our politics with what has happened with donald trump and his legal cases. and, of course the continual bombast. ~ , , ., ., cases. and, of course the continual bombast. ~ , ., ., ., ., bombast. why did you not manage to land a blow about _ bombast. why did you not manage to land a blow about january _ bombast. why did you not manage to land a blow about january the - bombast. why did you not manage to land a blow about january the sick. i land a blow about january the sick. when they asked if he would accept the result of the next election, there was no pension biden. for a resident there was no pension biden. for a president who _ there was no pension biden. for a president who has _ there was no pension biden. for a president who has focused - there was no pension biden. er?" —. president who has focused on the importance of protecting democracy and fears about the guardrails of the american republic being corroded, this was a big mess. it should have been something that the candidate thatjoe biden wove into answers, even if it wasn't on topic, this is what you are trying to do in politics. if you asked a question and is not the question you want, you answer the question you want. biden missed opportunities throughout this debate to weaving some of those punch lines against donald trump and to highlight the real scope of the significance of this election.— this election. one of those occasions. _ this election. one of those occasions, he _ this election. one of those occasions, he talked - this election. one of those occasions, he talked about this election. one of those - occasions, he talked about temper's character. he had overseen itching to do that. it was quite late on in the he talked about trump having sex with a pawn staff. it fizzled out as a moment. it with a pawn staff. it fizzled out as a moment-— with a pawn staff. it fizzled out as a moment. . ~ , ~ ., a moment. it makes me think, we have talked about — a moment. it makes me think, we have talked about the _ a moment. it makes me think, we have talked about the double _ a moment. it makes me think, we have talked about the double haters - talked about the double haters before, people who say that neither term or biden is a candidate that they want. the double haters will feel vindicated by this debate. neither candidate really stood out to them. in donald trump they didn't get anything different tonight. nothing to inspire them to choose him. folks... i nothing to inspire them to choose him- folrs---_ nothing to inspire them to choose him. folks... i 'ust wonder whether the rules that — him. folks... ijust wonder whether the rules that everyone _ him. folks... ijust wonder whether the rules that everyone is _ him. folks... ijust wonder whether the rules that everyone is talking i the rules that everyone is talking about and they are really going to curtail donald trump, and is not going to be able to interrupt, i just wonder whether the rules helped him. for my money, he looked, he did randall quite a lot and he said things weren't true. his concluding statement was quite bizarre. it looked as if he kept himself under control and allowed biden and s rope. it seems like his acting violence had told him to do this. he follows a power of the work for him. he wasn't the angry trend that we saw in the debates last time round. even even that, it was a fact checking failure. if your policy in the debate is that the anchors are going to keep it moving, and that you're going to cut off the microphones, one of the upsize of thatis microphones, one of the upsize of that is that you keep the debate on time. one of the downside is that you don't let the candidates fact check each other. this you don't let the candidates fact check each other.— you don't let the candidates fact check each other. this thing was 'ust filled check each other. this thing was just filled with _ check each other. this thing was just filled with whoppers. - check each other. this thing was i just filled with whoppers. including from joe biden. though not as many from joe biden. though not as many from joe biden. let from joe biden. though not as many fromjoe biden-— from joe biden. let us go for a few. what really — from joe biden. let us go for a few. what really stood _ from joe biden. let us go for a few. what really stood out _ from joe biden. let us go for a few. what really stood out for _ from joe biden. let us go for a few. what really stood out for you - from joe biden. let us go for a few. what really stood out for you when | what really stood out for you when it came to donald trump's whoppers. on some of the most hot button issues, donald trump really tried to re—characterise his legacy. one was on veterans. veterans came up a surprising amount in this debate. donald trump said he was the biggest champion veterans. this was an easy one to identify. i recall vividly donald trump wanting to detonate the department of veterans affairs. he didn't like that so many was being spent on it. he has tried to re—characterise himself as a champion veterans. he also tried to re—characterise his position on abortion. he is concerned about how thatis abortion. he is concerned about how that is going to affect him. there were some other whoppers relating to his legal issues.— his legal issues. some of the legal issues, his legal issues. some of the legal issues. some _ his legal issues. some of the legal issues, some of— his legal issues. some of the legal issues, some of the _ his legal issues. some of the legal issues, some of the ones - his legal issues. some of the legal issues, some of the ones i - his legal issues. some of the legal issues, some of the ones i wrote l issues, some of the ones i wrote down was that there was no terror in his administration. talking about terrorism around the world. stop the things he claims about foreign affairs were really bizarre and completely and fact checked. there were things — completely and fact checked. there were things about _ completely and fact checked. there were things about donald _ completely and fact checked. ii—iiff were things about donald trump's personal life that we know to be true. he said out loud that he did not have sex with a pawn staff. i know that most people know that not to be true. jae know that most people know that not to be true. , ., �* ., know that most people know that not to be true. �* ., to be true. joe biden also said something _ to be true. joe biden also said something that _ to be true. joe biden also said something that was _ to be true. joe biden also said i something that was immediately repudiated by the border force union. he said that they had endorsed what he wanted to do on the border. they almost immediately sent out in a tweet saying that that wasn't the case. i thing that really struck me was the rambling lists. a one time he couldn't remember people how many were on the list. economists. it was presidential historians. it was just weird. presidential historian who said the donald trump was the worst president ever. this was byjoe biden talking. he could remember there was hundred and 58 of the more hundred 59 of them. who cares? why are you wasting your time like this? i them. who cares? why are you wasting your time like this?— your time like this? i think there will be a whole _ your time like this? i think there will be a whole slew— your time like this? i think there will be a whole slew of— your time like this? i think there | will be a whole slew of headlines written aboutjoe biden trying to memorise numbers. who on earth advised him to try and memorise so many numbers will stop it was a catastrophe for the president. he conflated billionaires with gillian ayres. thousands with millions. numbers were adjusted upward and downward. this didn'tjust happen one or two times, almost every other answer that the president gave tonight involved a number, and more often than not, he stumbled over the number. it was not a good look, and it certainly held back is answered and having the pension they needed. did you get anything out of it, joe biden? i did you get anything out of it, joe biden? ., , , , , biden? i would be surprised if the second debate _ biden? i would be surprised if the second debate happens _ biden? i would be surprised if the second debate happens on - biden? i would be surprised if the - second debate happens on september the 10th. it was so clearly unhelpful to president biden. i think they will be re—considering whether they want to do a second one. if you got anything out of it was probably the notion that this type of format, these side by side debates are not good forjoe biden if you want to be re—elected. i’ll if you want to be re-elected. i'll be clear if you want to be re—elected. i'll be clear about the answer to the question is a donald trump was asked to. specifically about this hugely important things. let's focus on abortion for a minute. there is no question at all that abortion is one of the big issues at this election. is it clearer now what donald trump believes? he was asked a very central question about whether he would sign a bill if it came to him from republican congress that bans abortion around the united states. he was asked that question. did he give a clear answer? i he was asked that question. did he give a clear answer?— give a clear answer? i don't think americans _ give a clear answer? i don't think americans got — give a clear answer? i don't think americans got clarity _ give a clear answer? i don't think americans got clarity on - give a clear answer? i don't think americans got clarity on where i give a clear answer? i don't think - americans got clarity on where trump will go on these things. we try to haveit will go on these things. we try to have it both ways, including on abortion. in my view, he was a stiff breeze he could be. he kept falling back to the point that he wanted to be deferential to the states. but if you read between the lines of a comment like that, that means a lot of americans come in a lot of states around the country, it will mean severe restrictions on reproductive rights and there was a tacit, if not explicit admission from donald trump but that reality would continue. irate but that reality would continue. we are joined by sarah. you have just come _ are joined by sarah. you have just come out — are joined by sarah. you have just come out from the spin room. what was the _ come out from the spin room. what was the mood like down there? that was the mood like down there? that was one of the _ was the mood like down there? trust was one of the more bizarre experiences i've had from thisjob. the party said at their most famous faces to talk to the press. to pump out the lines about how the candidate did. the democrats were running away from us. there were no democrats on the floor at all. there were also the people from the donald trump campaign. nobody from the democrats. they were huddled in a corner, absolutely surrounded by tv cameras. you could not get near them. they set told us not a way that they would take our questions. these were well known people there was the georgia senator there. the senator of california, gavin newsom was also there. they were making rather defensive statements. this was not normal by any standards. there was a big difference in the body language between the democrats and the republicans. this reflected what they had just seen. democrats knew it a disaster. what they were saying was thatjoe biden had a bit of a cold and that was why he had a raspy voice. don't worry about the style and the performance, let's talk about the substance of the debate. let us talk about the lies donald trump told. their hearts weren't in it. they didn't look like people really believe what they were saying. irate people really believe what they were sa inc. ~ ., people really believe what they were sa inc. ~ . ., , people really believe what they were sa in. _ . ., ., , ~' people really believe what they were sa in. ~ . ., m ., saying. we have had this kind of situation before. _ saying. we have had this kind of situation before. obama - saying. we have had this kind of situation before. obama could l saying. we have had this kind of. situation before. obama could not spin very— situation before. obama could not spin very well. neither could george bush _ spin very well. neither could george bush even— spin very well. neither could george bush. even ronald reagan in his first debate did not have a good debate — first debate did not have a good debate. it was very hard for their sunporters— debate. it was very hard for their supporters to put a positive spin on it. supporters to put a positive spin on it but _ supporters to put a positive spin on it but i _ supporters to put a positive spin on it. but i don't think i've seen a presidential debate quite as rough as this _ presidential debate quite as rough as this from joe biden tonight. i heard _ as this from joe biden tonight. i heard that — as this from joe biden tonight. i heard that gavin newsom got asked whether— heard that gavin newsom got asked whether he was going to run for president — whether he was going to run for president. i whether he was going to run for resident. ., , whether he was going to run for president-— whether he was going to run for resident. ., , ., ., , ., , president. i was one of the people are askin: president. i was one of the people are asking that. _ president. i was one of the people are asking that. i _ president. i was one of the people are asking that. i was _ president. i was one of the people are asking that. i was trying - president. i was one of the people are asking that. i was trying to - are asking that. i was trying to film some of it on my mobile phone. i wasn't completely convinced that my cameraman could veto the heads of the otherjournalists. i managed to cut some of it on my phone. while i was asking them was, are you going to change horses? do you need to think about another candidate? they were trying to tell us that it was the substance of the debate that mattered, not the style, not howjoe biden performed. let us look at what they were saying. let's look at all they were saying. let's look at all the untruths from donald trump. it was pretty clear that nobody was buying that. i asked gavin newsom, the california governor, whether he would consider running if the democrats changed horses. doctor no, he said i am back injoe biden. what else could he say. i asked one of the others whether they were worried that it was more likely now that donald trump would be elected? they were all telling me what a disaster would be if donald trump was present. they had prepared all these talking points before the debate began about how he is a danger to the nation. how bad it would be for the nation. how bad it would be for the nation. how bad it would be for the nation to have a convicted felon as its president. what i want to ask them was, don't you think it is now like more likely that he will be elected after that performance? they said