with harry maguire already ruled out of the squad through injury, fellow centre halfjohn stones missed training today with an illness adding to england's fitness concerns in defence. the sense that southgate will have to draw on all his experience if he's to finally guide his team to glory. dan roan, bbc news, blankenhain. time for a look at the weather. here's stav da naos. tonight, rishi sunak underfire for the conservative government's record, as keir starmer refuses to rule out a series of tax rises. will any of it shift the dial? good evening. welcome to newsnight, with the best insight into tonight's interviews rishi sunak and sir keir starmer gave to sky's beth rigby and the answers they both gave to an audience of voters in grimsby. we're going to talk live to the home secretary and labour's shadow paymaster general. as soon as we establish communications. we can see them, we cannot quite hear them yet. and later, we'll speak to the deputy leader of the greens. ashraf al-qudra. —— zack polanski. our political panel tonight — philip collins — former speechwriter for tony blair and keir starmer, and salma shah, who was special adviser to ex tory home secretary sajid javid. first, some highlights of tonight's battle for number 10 on sky. no tax rises in the next parliament? no tax rises needed in the plans in our manifesto? in the plans? no tax rises for working people. that's income tax, national insurance and vat. ok, so you're not ruling out... over the last year, i feel. like you've fallen into more of a politician than a person that i would have voted _ for to run the country. you seem more like a political robot. - how are you... how are you going to convince others like me to vote for you? _ well, erm... the most... laughter look, i came into politics quite late in life. i'd done other things beforehand. but i took the decision that i couldn't take the issues, make the changes that i thought were necessary unless i went into politics. i was frustrated. it's a catalogue of broken promises. you must surely see why so many voters think it's time for you and the conservatives to get your p45? applause of course i can understand people's frustrations. it's been a very difficult few years. i'm a former conservative party | chair and a lifelong true blue, | but in this election, _ i find myself an undecided voter. actions taken by this government actually make me feel ashamed. | well, i think you had a question earlier from i think there was a junior doctor here, and i think everyone knows the impact the industrial action has had. that's why we haven't made... so it's the doctors�* fault? angry shouting let's go live to the spin room in grimsby and speak to home secretary james cleverly and shadow paymaster generaljon ashworth. thank you very much was speaking to newsnight and to our audience, gentlemen. jonathan ashworth, in 2019, keir starmertold gentlemen. jonathan ashworth, in 2019, keir starmer told the country jeremy corbyn would make a great prime minister. tonight, he claimed he only said that because he knew labour was going to lose. what sort of a man does that?— of a man does that? well, let's be clear, of a man does that? well, let's be clear. that — of a man does that? well, let's be clear, that election _ of a man does that? well, let's be clear, that election in _ of a man does that? well, let's be clear, that election in 2019... - clear, that election in 2019... sorry, i'm getting quite a lot of repeating in my ear. that election in 2019, the labour party got absolutely hammered. in the british electorate sent the labour party a clear message. and we listened to the electorate and what we have done, we have changed the labour party. keir starmer has changed the labour party and he will change the country. and jeremy corbyn is not a labour candidate. but the woman who crashed the economy and sent mortgages soaring, liz truss, is still a conservative party candidate in this general election. that is the difference between the strong leadership of keir starmer and the weak leadership of rishi sunak. qm. weak leadership of rishi sunak. ok, i appreciate — weak leadership of rishi sunak. ok, i appreciate you had to take out the peace in order to answer so i apologise for the technical problems. i wasn't asking you how keir starmer change the party —— take out the earpiece. what sort of a man says one thing in 2019 about jeremy corbyn and he told the country he would make a prime minister —— a great prime minister? tonight, he said he only said it because he knew labour was going to lose. that is either disingenuous or dishonest, which is it? h0 lose. that is either disingenuous or dishonest, which is it?— lose. that is either disingenuous or dishonest, which is it? no do -- no, i don't accept _ dishonest, which is it? no do -- no, i don't accept the _ dishonest, which is it? no do -- no, i don't accept the premise _ dishonest, which is it? no do -- no, i don't accept the premise of- dishonest, which is it? no do -- no, i don't accept the premise of your i i don't accept the premise of your question. i have been in the labour party since 15, keir starmer has been a lifelong member and support of the labour party apart from the time when he was running the crown prosecution service and it was not appropriate to be a member of a political party. we are not making any apology for trying to get labour candidate selected, the labour party is the greatest force for social justice this country has ever seen. everybody knows the labour party was going to get hammered in 2019, i said it. whenjames was party chair, he put out a recording of me saying it. so it is no surprise labour politicians knew that we were not going to win in 2019. the difference is this. we knew we had to change the labour party. keir starmer did change the labour party. jeremy corbyn is not a candidate in this election. the woman who ran our economy off aycliffe and sent mortgages through the roof is a tory party candidate. —— a cliff. rishi sunak will make the same mistakes liz truss made, putting up borrowing to pay for this desperate wish list he produced yesterday and working families facing an increase in the mortgage of £4800. i families facing an increase in the mortgage of £4800.— families facing an increase in the mortgage of £4800. i will go back to that fi . ure mortgage of £4800. i will go back to that figure because _ mortgage of £4800. i will go back to that figure because that _ mortgage of £4800. i will go back to that figure because that is _ mortgage of £4800. i will go back to that figure because that is as - mortgage of £4800. i will go back to that figure because that is as dodgy l that figure because that is as dodgy as the £2000 figure you accuse the tories of when it came to the labour tax attack on you. james cleverly, despite the tax cuts the conservatives announced yesterday with your manifesto, rishi sunak would not acknowledge that the tax burden if the conservatives win this election will go up. you are going to be honest with the voters tonight and tell them, yes, it will go up. well, the tax burden as a percentage of gdp _ well, the tax burden as a percentage of gdp is _ well, the tax burden as a percentage of gdp is entirely dependent on gdp. and actually, what we have seen because — and actually, what we have seen because of— and actually, what we have seen because of the decisions that the prime _ because of the decisions that the prime minister took, we have seen inflation _ prime minister took, we have seen inflation coming down, that will inevitably have a knock—on effect for public — inevitably have a knock—on effect for public finances. it is why we have _ for public finances. it is why we have the — for public finances. it is why we have the financial headroom to have those _ have the financial headroom to have those targeted tax cuts in our manifesto and tax cuts on families with children, tax cuts and working people _ with children, tax cuts and working peopie. tax — with children, tax cuts and working people. tax cuts on the self—employed. protecting pensioners from a _ self—employed. protecting pensioners from a labour tax grab. and of course, — from a labour tax grab. and of course, the _ from a labour tax grab. and of course, the point about borrowing as a percentage of gdp is entirely dependent on gdp as the prime minister— dependent on gdp as the prime minister said. we don't know what the gdp _ minister said. we don't know what the gdp will be we have a plan to grow it _ the gdp will be we have a plan to grow it and — the gdp will be we have a plan to grow it and therefore, it is not the case _ grow it and therefore, it is not the case that— grow it and therefore, it is not the case that that is an accurate statement. and when it comes to... | statement. and when it comes to... i am statement. and when it comes to... am going to statement. and when it comes to... i am going to pose you if i may? jonathan, i was shocked, genuinely shocked _ jonathan, i was shocked, genuinely shocked when somebody that aspires to be prime minister basically said, oh, to be prime minister basically said, oh. its— to be prime minister basically said, oh. its fine— to be prime minister basically said, oh, it's fine for me to lie because i oh, it's fine for me to lie because i never_ oh, it's fine for me to lie because i never thought i would be caught out. i never thought i would be caught out~ i_ i never thought i would be caught out i find — i never thought i would be caught out. i find that genuinely unacceptable. three weeks out from a general— unacceptable. three weeks out from a general election, somebody who aspires— general election, somebody who aspires to — general election, somebody who aspires to be prime minister basically— aspires to be prime minister basically says, it's fine as long as you don't— basically says, it's fine as long as you don't get caught.— basically says, it's fine as long as you don't get caught. voters will be renerall you don't get caught. voters will be generally shocked _ you don't get caught. voters will be generally shocked that _ you don't get caught. voters will be generally shocked that you - you don't get caught. voters will be generally shocked that you cannot l generally shocked that you cannot say the tax take for this year is 36.5% of gdp and if you get back in and an actual tax cuts, it will rise to 36.7% of gdp. so that is higher than now, which means the tax burden is going up, correct? trio. than now, which means the tax burden is going op. correct?— is going up, correct? no, that is a projection. what _ is going up, correct? no, that is a projection. what we _ is going up, correct? no, that is a projection. what we have - is going up, correct? no, that is a projection. what we have seen - is going up, correct? no, that is a l projection. what we have seen with is going up, correct? no, that is a i projection. what we have seen with a lot of— projection. what we have seen with a lot of projections, they have underestimated the performance of the uk _ underestimated the performance of the uk economy. the underestimated the performance of the uk economy.— underestimated the performance of the uk economy. the obr is not good enou:h for the uk economy. the obr is not good enough for you _ the uk economy. the obr is not good enough for you any — the uk economy. the obr is not good enough for you any more. _ the uk economy. the obr is not good enough for you any more. we - the uk economy. the obr is not good enough for you any more. we were i enough for you any more. we were ro'ected enough for you any more. we were projected to _ enough for you any more. we were projected to have _ enough for you any more. we were projected to have the _ enough for you any more. we were projected to have the longest - projected to have the longest downturn in a century, that turned out not _ downturn in a century, that turned out not to — downturn in a century, that turned out not to be the case, we got the econonry— out not to be the case, we got the economy back into growth. we were projected _ economy back into growth. we were projected to have very high inflation rates for an extended period. — inflation rates for an extended period, we brought those down. so projections — period, we brought those down. so projections have been consistently wrong _ projections have been consistently wrong in _ projections have been consistently wrong in terms of the performance of the uk _ wrong in terms of the performance of the uk economy. so those protections are just _ the uk economy. so those protections are just that, projections, we don't agree _ are just that, projections, we don't agree with — are just that, projections, we don't agree with them and that's why the prime _ agree with them and that's why the prime minister... agree with them and that's why the prime minister. . ._ agree with them and that's why the prime minister... hang on, they are obr projections _ prime minister... hang on, they are obr projections you _ prime minister... hang on, they are obr projections you don't _ prime minister... hang on, they are obr projections you don't agree - prime minister... hang on, they are| obr projections you don't agree with the obr any more, you are turning into liz truss, are you? he. the obr any more, you are turning into liz truss, are you?— the obr any more, you are turning into liz truss, are you? no, obr has consistently — into liz truss, are you? no, obr has consistently estimated _ into liz truss, are you? no, obr has consistently estimated -- _ consistently estimated —— underestimated the economy. so the obr ptays _ underestimated the economy. so the obr plays an important role, of course — obr plays an important role, of course it — obr plays an important role, of course it does. but if you look back, — course it does. but if you look back, the _ course it does. but if you look back, the obr has consistently adjusted — back, the obr has consistently adjusted upwards in terms of the performance of the uk economy and that _ performance of the uk economy and that you — performance of the uk economy and that... you can check the figures, that... you can check the figures, that is— that... you can check the figures, that is wait— that... you can check the figures, that is well established fact. i have checked the figures and ijust read them out to you and they come from the obr whichjeremy hunt on the prime minister have been very keen to say is absolutely what they should be using to mark your homework. jonathan ashworth, you said the prime minister was lying last week when he came up with that £2000 tax figure at which he said people would be paying if labour win the election. you have now come up with your own figure. you say if you vote conservative, it will mean 4800 and everyone's mortgage. that is just a spurious, it was called very speculative and based on multiple assumptions today. so you are as misleading and disrespectful to voters as you say the conservatives are. ., ., .., ., , voters as you say the conservatives are. ., ., ., , ., are. no, on the contrary. you will recall that — are. no, on the contrary. you will recall that rishi _ are. no, on the contrary. you will recall that rishi sunak _ are. no, on the contrary. you will recall that rishi sunak lied - are. no, on the contrary. you will recall that rishi sunak lied to - are. no, on the contrary. you will recall that rishi sunak lied to the | recall that rishi sunak lied to the british public last week by claiming that impartial civil servants had done the calculations and exonerated that figure. that was exposed the morning after when the treasury permanent secretary issued a letter debunking that. so rishi sunak lied. he lied about the impartial civil service and he lied to the british people. we have gone through the manifesto of the tory party yesterday using very conservative assumptions and when you read that manifesto, it is a long, desperate wish list as long as your arm. it is a commitment where they cannot find the funding from savings which will not materialise. the money is simply not materialise. the money is simply not there and if you add up, if you add up all those commitments, it can only be paid for by borrowing which will put pressure on interest rates and put up mortgage rates. i don't know why you _ and put up mortgage rates. i don't know why you sound _ and put up mortgage rates. i don't know why you sound so _ and put up mortgage rates. i don't know why you sound so angry. - and put up mortgage rates. i don't know why you sound so angry. i i and put up mortgage rates. i don't i know why you sound so angry. i don't know why you sound so angry. i don't know why you sound so angry. i don't know why you sound so angry because what you have done is come up with one assumption and said, if this happens and then if this happens, and then if this happens, this might happen. it is embarrassing! meiji. and then if this happens, this might happen. it is embarrassing!- happen. it is embarrassing! well, i don't think i _ happen. it is embarrassing! well, i don't think i am _ happen. it is embarrassing! well, i don't think i am angry _ happen. it is embarrassing! well, i don't think i am angry particularly. | don't think i am angry particularly. but i am angry on behalf of working people paying so much more on their mortgage thanks to the decisions taken by the conservatives. so yes, i am angry for people who have are really struggling and have seen their mortgage go up by hundreds of thousands —— by hundreds a month and i am sorry if you thing and gets too much, but i am angry british people are paying so much under the conservatives.— are paying so much under the conservatives. , . , , ., conservatives. james cleverly, do ou think conservatives. james cleverly, do you think rishi _ conservatives. james cleverly, do you think rishi sunak _ conservatives. james cleverly, do you think rishi sunak looks - conservatives. james cleverly, do you think rishi sunak looks like i conservatives. james cleverly, do | you think rishi sunak looks like his heart was in it tonight?— heart was in it tonight? well, i think what _ heart was in it tonight? well, i think what we _ heart was in it tonight? well, i think what we saw from - heart was in it tonight? well, i i think what we saw from the prime minister was clear and unambiguous answers— minister was clear and unambiguous answers to _ minister was clear and unambiguous answers to tough questions. and they were tough— answers to tough questions. and they were tough questions. and he was completely open about the times when we haven't_ completely open about the times when we haven't achieved what we hoped to achieve _ we haven't achieved what we hoped to achieve i_ we haven't achieved what we hoped to achieve. i think he was very clear that achieve. ! think he was very clear that on— achieve. i think he was very clear that on the — achieve. i think he was very clear that on the priority which was to bring _ that on the priority which was to bring down inflation amongst almost everything else, we have overachieved. we recognise there is work to— overachieved. we recognise there is work to do. — overachieved. we recognise there is work to do, that's why we want to form _ work to do, that's why we want to form the — work to do, that's why we want to form the next government. and with regard _ form the next government. and with regard to _ form the next government. and with regard to the figures that jonathan was talking about, he is using the word _ was talking about, he is using the word light — was talking about, he is using the word light which i think is a strong and completely unjustified word because — and completely unjustified word because you can go on to the treasury— because you can go on to the treasury websites and you can see in the calculations that were done by treasury— the calculations that were done by treasury civil servants letter from simon _ treasury civil servants letter from simon case, the senior civil servant -- the _ simon case, the senior civil servant -- the word — simon case, the senior civil servant —— the word lie. he said the figures were _ —— the word lie. he said the figures were produced by the civil servants and based — were produced by the civil servants and based on conservative estimates. you are _ and based on conservative estimates. you are doing what they are doing. the difference is, victoria.- the difference is, victoria. there is no difference. _ the difference is, victoria. there is no difference. there _ the difference is, victoria. there is no difference. there is. - the difference is, victoria. there is no difference. there is. you i the difference is, victoria. there l is no difference. there is. you can no onto is no difference. there is. you can go onto the _ is no difference. there is. you can go onto the website _ is no difference. there is. you can go onto the website and _ is no difference. there is. you can go onto the website and see - is no difference. there is. you can go onto the website and see the l go onto the website and see the figures — go onto the website and see the figures produced by treasury civil servants — figures produced by treasury civil servants we are using, no such figures — servants we are using, no such figures exist for the made up nonsense jonathan has been talking about _ nonsense jonathan has been talking about. . , ., ., nonsense jonathan has been talking about. ., , ., ., , ., nonsense jonathan has been talking about. . , ., ., �*, about. final question for you. let's fast-forward _ about. final question for you. let's fast-forward a _ about. final question for you. let's fast-forward a month _ about. final question for you. let's fast-forward a month or— about. final question for you. let's fast-forward a month or so - about. final question for you. let's fast-forward a month or so and - about. final question for you. let'sl fast-forward a month or so and let's fast—forward a month or so and let's imagine the polls are accurate and that labour win and the tories are looking for a new leader. you have retained your seat in this scenario, will you stand for the leadership? i am campaigning to win this election and return— am campaigning to win this election and return a conservative government. and the message i would say to— government. and the message i would say to anyone who is daydreaming about _ say to anyone who is daydreaming about what they would do in the aftermath of a conservative defeat is to work— aftermath of a conservative defeat is to work to avoid that conservative defeat. that is what i'm conservative defeat. that is what i'm doing — conservative defeat. that is what i'm doing i— conservative defeat. that is what i'm doing. i have never speculated, i'm doing. i have never speculated, i have _ i'm doing. i have never speculated, i have always answered this the same way. i have always answered this the same way i_ i have always answered this the same way i am _ i have always answered this the same way. i am relentlessly focused on winning _ way. i am relentlessly focused on winning the election, getting myself re—elected and also getting a conservative government is re—elected. that is my exclusive focus _ re-elected. that is my exclusive focus. , , re-elected. that is my exclusive focus. , ., ., focus. just to check, you are not daydreaming _ focus. just to check, you are not daydreaming about _ focus. just to check, you are not daydreaming about being - focus. just to check, you are not daydreaming about being leaderj focus. just to check, you are not i daydreaming about being leader of the tory party after this election? no, absolutely not. this is not the first time — no, absolutely not. this is not the first time i have been asked about this _ first time i have been asked about this i ran— first time i have been asked about this. i ran for leadership back in 2016. i— this. i ran for leadership back in 2016, i wasn't successful. and what i have _ 2016, i wasn't successful. and what i have done is relentlessly tried to serve _ i have done is relentlessly tried to serve the british people to the best of my— serve the british people to the best of my ability, within the foreign, commonwealth and development office and within— commonwealth and development office and within the home office. that is what i remain focused on because this is about service, it is not about personal ambition, it is about service _ about personal ambition, it is about service to _ about personal ambition, it is about service to the british people. and i genuinely— service to the british people. and i genuinely believe the british people are best _ genuinely believe the british people are best served by having a government that has a plan, rather than a _ government that has a plan, rather than a set — government that has a plan, rather than a set of pipe dreams like the labour— than a set of pipe dreams like the labour party. than a set of pipe dreams like the labour party-— than a set of pipe dreams like the labour party. thank you both very much for being — labour party. thank you both very much for being with _ labour party. thank you both very much for being with us _ labour party. thank you both very much for being with us and - labour party. thank you both very much for being with us and coping with the technical problems, we really thank you. —— appreciate it. nick is there in grimsby. so what are people around you saying about how well or otherwise both leaders did? naturally, we are in the spin room so there has been an awful lot of spinning involving the two politicians you have just had. i was in the other spin room for the press down that corridor and the debate had barely ended and in marched jon ashworth saying keir starmer knocked it out of the park. shortly after that, we had so mark spencer from the conservatives who gave rishi sunak a good eight out of. the tories thought they needed to pump up tories thought they needed to pump up the volume a bit, so in walks james cleverly and he said zero out of ten for keir starmer. so a lot of spinning and it did remind me of that great line from primary colours. loses spin, winners green. so maybe they both lost. but there was a snap yougov poll that's it keir starmer won 64—36. it is a snap poll, let's see what the other polls show tomorrow. i think this was quite an uncomfortable experience for both politicians. uncomfortable with all those questions from beth rigby, uncomfortable with those questions from the audience focusing on their past and focusing on their future. so as you picked up, keir starmer, why did you wantjeremy corbyn to be prime minister because you are campaigning for a labour victory in 2019? keir starmer said, i never thought he would win. that does not exactly hit the transparency mark. pressure under tax and keir starmer giving that commitment, no rise in vat and national insurance, no rise in income tax. but he would not give such a specific commitment. no plans for other tax rises. beth rigby said, we know what no plans mean. with rishi sunak, beth rigby pointing out you failed to meet most of your promises. and on the future, the point about how you may be saying that individual taxes are coming down, but the overall tax burden is going up, why is that? james cleverly was talking about that. it is a fiscal drag. because the tax bands are not rising with inflation and that brings many more people into the higher tax bands are not due to change until 2028, that is how the tax burden goes up. finally, really interesting, what did they not say? rishi sunak talked about nothing else at the debate last week other than what he claimed was a £2000 tax rise under labour, no mention of that. you talked about that claim from rachel reeves that the conservative manifesto will lead to a £4800 rise in mortgage rates. didn't hear back from keir starmer. philip collins and salma shah are here. who won, in your view? given that rishi sunak said needed something remarkable happened with up to say that keir starmer won the debate because even if there was a draw, keir starmer was winning. because even if there was a draw, keir starmerwas winning. on because even if there was a draw, keir starmer was winning. on the balance of it keir starmer give a basically accomplished performance and rishi sunak at times i thought looked like he was sorta broken. i felt unbalanced that keir starmer one, anyway, but he only needed to not collapse and he is so far ahead that that counts as a victory. i would agree with that assessment. the snap— would agree with that assessment. the snap poll gave a distinctive need _ the snap poll gave a distinctive need for— the snap poll gave a distinctive need for keir starmer. the discomfort that the prime minister felt about trying to defend the government's record was apparent. i think at— government's record was apparent. i think at times he got a little bit shirty— think at times he got a little bit shirty about it, and the apology did not handle — shirty about it, and the apology did not handle that particularly deftly and even — not handle that particularly deftly and even though you're broadcasting to the _ and even though you're broadcasting to the nation, what is happening with the — to the nation, what is happening with the audience, the audience reaction — with the audience, the audience reaction can be an important indicator— reaction can be an important indicator and i think it through most — indicator and i think it through most likely and i think the audience was not _ most likely and i think the audience was not on — most likely and i think the audience was not on the prime minister's side _ was not on the prime minister's side. ., ,., ., , was not on the prime minister's side. ., ., , ., side. you did get some rounds of applause. — side. you did get some rounds of applause. as _ side. you did get some rounds of applause. as did _ side. you did get some rounds of applause, as did keir— side. you did get some rounds of applause, as did keir starmer- side. you did get some rounds of| applause, as did keir starmer and both gentlemen were laughed at some points. can i ask about the ability of keir starmer to rule out rises in income tax, vat and national insurance and conspicuously not ruled out rises in other taxes like capital gains? it ruled out rises in other taxes like capital gains?— capital gains? it is a standard rotocol capital gains? it is a standard protocol tactic _ capital gains? it is a standard protocol tactic not _ capital gains? it is a standard protocol tactic not to - capital gains? it is a standard protocol tactic not to rule - capital gains? it is a standard protocol tactic not to rule outj protocol tactic not to rule out everything. if you rule out every conceivable method of raising revenue that you have nowhere to go. it is very conspicuous now isn't it? it is very conspicuous now isn't it? it is, both sides were conspicuous, those things no doubt i was a conspicuous and labour governments in the past have gone into elections without ruling out increases in those taxes and the other most salient ones for people's income, so thatis salient ones for people's income, so that is conspicuous, but so is the fact that you want to leave yourself some room, who knows what shocks might come to the economy? if you have ruled out everything then it is quite a foolish thing to do. has have ruled out everything then it is quite a foolish thing to do.- quite a foolish thing to do. has the leadership contest _ quite a foolish thing to do. has the leadership contest in _ quite a foolish thing to do. has the leadership contest in the _ quite a foolish thing to do. has the leadership contest in the tory - quite a foolish thing to do. has the| leadership contest in the tory party be done? james cleverly said he is not daydreaming about being the next tory leader, then reminded us all of the variousjobs he had done in public service. did that sound like him going through his greatest hits? it was interesting that he was referring _ it was interesting that he was referring to public service and not personal— referring to public service and not personal ambition then all of the bil personal ambition then all of the big job _ personal ambition then all of the big job that he enjoyed doing serving — big job that he enjoyed doing serving the public so there was a bit of— serving the public so there was a bit of a _ serving the public so there was a bit of a see — serving the public so there was a bit of a see me flashing da. the conservative leadership contest began _ conservative leadership contest began a — conservative leadership contest began a while ago. who conservative leadership contest began a while ago.— conservative leadership contest began a while ago. who is on the move? all _ began a while ago. who is on the move? all the _ began a while ago. who is on the move? all the other— began a while ago. who is on the move? all the other names - began a while ago. who is on the move? all the other names thatl began a while ago. who is on the i move? all the other names that you are reading — move? all the other names that you are reading about _ move? all the other names that you are reading about in _ move? all the other names that you are reading about in the _ are reading about in the papers, kemi— are reading about in the papers, kemi badenoch, penny mordaunt, suella _ kemi badenoch, penny mordaunt, suella braverman on the reform side of things _ suella braverman on the reform side of things. and suella braverman on the reform side of thins. �* ., , suella braverman on the reform side ofthinas. �* ., , of things. and with those names you have mentioned _ of things. and with those names you have mentioned that you _ of things. and with those names you have mentioned that you say are - have mentioned that you say are on the move, what would you say that each of those has done that means that someone like you know is that they want the top job? it is that someone like you know is that they want the top job?— they want the top “ob? it is not something h they want the top “ob? it is not something that _ they want the topjob? it is not something that they _ they want the topjob? it is not something that they do - they want the top job? it is not l something that they do directly, because — something that they do directly, because we are all in the firmament, it is the _ because we are all in the firmament, it is the way— because we are all in the firmament, it is the way people ask to speak on about— it is the way people ask to speak on about directly, and there are always people behind that, that are in people's— people behind that, that are in people's here and saying that this is not _ people's here and saying that this is not going to go well so we have to think— is not going to go well so we have to think about you is the future, then— to think about you is the future, then they— to think about you is the future, then they start talking people are. it then they start talking people are. it might— then they start talking people are. it might be completely outside of their control, but when you start hearing — their control, but when you start hearing that, you start to become part of— hearing that, you start to become part of the — hearing that, you start to become part of the contest whether you like it or not _ part of the contest whether you like it or not. , .., ., it or not. decode it for the audience. _ it or not. decode it for the audience, why _ it or not. decode it for the audience, why are - it or not. decode it for the audience, why are those l it or not. decode it for the - audience, why are those names on it or not. decode it for the _ audience, why are those names on the list? , , ., ., list? first, who's going to survive the election. _ list? first, who's going to survive the election, we _ list? first, who's going to survive the election, we don't _ list? first, who's going to survive the election, we don't know - list? first, who's going to survive the election, we don't know that| list? first, who's going to survive l the election, we don't know that all of those people will retain their seats, they may or may not so the electorate might have something to say about the next contest for the tory leadership, but the party has a big question to answer about its direction, and the leader is the personification of the direction so if the party response to a defeat by saying we have been rejected for being closer to reform, let's go closer to reform in the mistaken assumption that is a good idea, then they choose a leader, then you think, we have been completely lambasted by the electorate, we need to move back to a more sensible position nearer the centre, then they would choose someone else but my strong suspicion is that they are desperate to indulge themselves as parties often are an election and they will veer backwards towards the right. and that will give even more space... right. and that will give even more sace. .. . right. and that will give even more sace... . ., ., ., ., space... that are following a attern space... that are following a pattern that _ space... that are following a pattern that happened - space... that are following a i pattern that happened post-97 space... that are following a - pattern that happened post-97 so pattern that happened post—97 so looking _ pattern that happened post—97 so looking backwards on this model this is something that is likely to happen _ is something that is likely to happen. if you have names like tom tugendhat. — happen. if you have names like tom tugendhat, who might be more right win- tugendhat, who might be more right wing on _ tugendhat, who might be more right wing on security but more liberal, but all— wing on security but more liberal, but all these questions and all of this manoeuvring, you've got to remember— this manoeuvring, you've got to remember that all of the names in the brain, — remember that all of the names in the brain, there might be others, they have — the brain, there might be others, they have all gone and had a go at they have all gone and had a go at the leadership —— make the names in the leadership —— make the names in the ring, _ the leadership —— make the names in the ring, but— the leadership —— make the names in the ring, but you don't know what is going _ the ring, but you don't know what is going to _ the ring, but you don't know what is going to happen, and who is actually left in _ going to happen, and who is actually left in this— going to happen, and who is actually left in this campaign and who still wants— left in this campaign and who still wants to — left in this campaign and who still wants to have a shot at it and who might— wants to have a shot at it and who might have — wants to have a shot at it and who might have what kind of support. we might have what kind of support. w's. have a might have what kind of support. - have a graphic showing which of the conservative big beasts, if you want to call them that, cabinet ministers, may lose their seat this time, but we will talk about that in a moment. let's go back to nick, and let's look ahead to the launch of the labour manifesto, which is out tomorrow. do you think there will be any surprises tomorrow? we got a flavour of that surprise tonight. what we will see tomorrow is a labour leader who hails from the left of tony blair, who will govern to the right of tony blair, because keir starmer said unlike previous labour governments, we will not turn on the spending taps. i said to one of keir starmer�*s age, he's not going to be like tony blair, rememberthat tony he's not going to be like tony blair, remember that tony blair stuck to the tory spending limits for two years, then started spending but they are saying that it is different times. the focus tomorrow will alteration, reforming planning rules, to create wealth, but one lesson from the last labour government is if that wealth creation can create a sort of wealth that you got on the bar last labour government that would be £70 billion aircraft for public services. that ou, aircraft for public services. that you. nick. _ aircraft for public services. that you. nick. -- — aircraft for public services. that you, nick. -- £70— aircraft for public services. that you, nick. -- £70 billion - aircraft for public services. that you, nick. —— £70 billion extra. today, the green party launched its manifesto, promising big spending running into hundreds of billions of pounds if you vote for them. they want to get to net zero faster, end tuition fees, privatise all the utilities, and say they would spend 50 billion more for health and social care by 2030. their deputy leader is zack polanski. thank you very much for being with us. . ~' thank you very much for being with us. . ~ , ., thank you very much for being with us. ., ~' i., ., thank you very much for being with us. . ~ i., ., ., thank you very much for being with us. ., ~' i., ., ., bi us. thank you for having me. big sums of money _ us. thank you for having me. big sums of money in _ us. thank you for having me. big sums of money in your _ us. thank you for having me. big l sums of money in your manifesto, increasing tax by a 170 billion per year to fund a 160 billion pounds increase in spending on public services but the iss says it is unlikely that you will measures would raise as much revenue as you would raise as much revenue as you would expect, the accent back? what would expect, the accent back? what the green party _ would expect, the accent back? what the green party are _ would expect, the accent back? transit the green party are offering is would expect, the accent back? twat the green party are offering is real hope and change and with the numbers you are asking about with the iss, it is a mixed bag. what we're looking at is a wealth tax, 1% tax on people with assets of over £10 million or more, and a 2% tax on people with over 2 billion or more,. the iss say that it is unlikely that they would raise the sums they claim i'm certainly not without real economic costs. we i'm certainly not without real economic costs.— i'm certainly not without real economic costs. we have seen in scandinavian _ economic costs. we have seen in scandinavian countries _ economic costs. we have seen in scandinavian countries where - economic costs. we have seen in | scandinavian countries where this has worked. scandinavian countries where this has worked-— has worked. there are three countries — has worked. there are three countries now _ has worked. there are three countries now you _ has worked. there are three countries now you have - has worked. there are three i countries now you have wealth has worked. there are three - countries now you have wealth taxes because they do not raise as much as people think. we because they do not raise as much as people think-— people think. we are talking about a 1% tax on a wealth _ people think. we are talking about a 1% tax on a wealth tax _ people think. we are talking about a 1% tax on a wealth tax so _ people think. we are talking about a 1% tax on a wealth tax so this - people think. we are talking about a 1% tax on a wealth tax so this is - 1% tax on a wealth tax so this is about, you hear stories of a capital flight back people who invest in the world in this country because they are proud of this country, the culture in this country... none of these millionaires _ culture in this country... none of these millionaires and _ culture in this country... none of| these millionaires and billionaires would want to leave the country? but it is about evidence. in other countries millionaires have left because they don't want to pay a wealth tax. in switzerland they have plenty of rich people and plenty of wealthy people there. but it is about patriotism, expecting more from the country, people investing because they want to be aired, not because they want to be aired, not because we are some kind of depository of wealth, that is a bad way to run the economy because wealth becomes stagnant, and we need to defend the national health service. we know the labour party are talking about privatisation through the front door, and by putting £50 billion into the national health service that would ultimately heal it and make it have the support it needs. it is notjust the support it needs. it is notjust the nhs, it is active travel, public transport, building council homes. we have a waiting list of over! million homes, and we need to create those homes and that will require money, and the green party are being straight with people that that will require investment which will require investment which will require a wealth tax. band require investment which will require a wealth tax.- require investment which will require a wealth tax. and by 2026, ou will require a wealth tax. and by 2026, you will be — require a wealth tax. and by 2026, you will be borrowing _ require a wealth tax. and by 2026, you will be borrowing £85 - require a wealth tax. and by 2026, you will be borrowing £85 billion i you will be borrowing £85 billion extra a year. that is double what liz truss wanted to borrow for tax cuts. you're going to press the economy. cuts. you're going to press the economy-— cuts. you're going to press the econom. ., , . , cuts. you're going to press the econom. ., , , _ economy. the economy was crushed by liz truss because _ economy. the economy was crushed by liz truss because this _ economy. the economy was crushed by liz truss because this was _ economy. the economy was crushed by liz truss because this was about - liz truss because this was about unfunded tax cuts. taste liz truss because this was about unfunded tax cuts.— liz truss because this was about unfunded tax cuts. we are bringing in the other— unfunded tax cuts. we are bringing in the other end _ unfunded tax cuts. we are bringing in the other end with _ unfunded tax cuts. we are bringing in the other end with a _ unfunded tax cuts. we are bringing in the other end with a wealth - unfunded tax cuts. we are bringing in the other end with a wealth tax l in the other end with a wealth tax on carbon tax. i'm going to pause you there, desperately with voters, you there, desperately with voters, you want to raise taxes, 170 billion a year, the fund at 160 billion increase in spending and on top of that, you're going to borrow the 5 billion, borrow. it was the borrowing that on did liz truss, it was the point marcus who said you cannot borrow that much, liz truss, so we're going to go crazy, you're going to to do more than she did. this is nowhere near spain, france germany and japan are. it is about being straight with people.- being straight with people. you're not being straight with people. you're rrot answering _ being straight with people. you're not answering the _ being straight with people. you're not answering the question. - being straight with people. you're not answering the question. you | being straight with people. you're i not answering the question. you are not. ., ., ., not answering the question. you are not. ., ~ ., , , , ., ., not. you know why because of what ha--ened not. you know why because of what happened in — not. you know why because of what happened in september _ not. you know why because of what happened in september 2022, - not. you know why because of what happened in september 2022, have not. you know why because of what - happened in september 2022, have you not learn from that, in the green party? that was borrowing that was borina. but party? that was borrowing that was boring- itut rrot _ party? that was borrowing that was boring. but not for _ party? that was borrowing that was boring. but not for infrastructure, l boring. but not for infrastructure, and the crumbling _ boring. but not for infrastructure, and the crumbling infrastructure i boring. but not for infrastructure, | and the crumbling infrastructure in this country is one of the biggest thing holding us back. you this country is one of the biggest thing holding us back.— thing holding us back. you think that the markets _ thing holding us back. you think that the markets wouldn't - thing holding us back. you think that the markets wouldn't go i thing holding us back. you think. that the markets wouldn't go crazy if you borrow 85 billion over five years, it is £325 billion, you think the bond markets, financial markets would go, that is fine, you will not go crazy, mortgage rates will not shoot up. go crazy, mortgage rates will not shoot u -. . ., go crazy, mortgage rates will not shootu. . ., ,, ., shoot up. the wealth tax commission, one of their — shoot up. the wealth tax commission, one of their economist _ shoot up. the wealth tax commission, one of their economist don _ shoot up. the wealth tax commission, one of their economist don bbc- one of their economist don bbc verify said that our plans are economically credible. we have people at the university of greenwich we have been doing modelling of what this might look like in future. these are difficult questions, because they are eye watering sums but we are living in a cost of living crisis which is really an inequality crisis are the only way that we will sort it out is by being straight with people that we need to invest huge sums of money because more than anything we have a climate crisis, that gets pitted against the cost of living crisis, but if you insulate every home in britain that needs it, it is a triple victory, it reduces bills, reduces emissions, and preach there is good, greenjobs reduces emissions, and preach there is good, green jobs which exactly answer the questions you come to, by treating those jobs and industry, thatis treating those jobs and industry, that is how we get the economy moving, and if we do politics the same way it has been done for the past 14 years or even under tony blair before that, that has left working—class people in the worst date they have ever been in, we have to stand up for those marginalised communities by redistributing money around the economy.— around the economy. you're widely condemned — around the economy. you're widely condemned policy _ around the economy. you're widely condemned policy to _ around the economy. you're widely condemned policy to reduce - around the economy. you're widely condemned policy to reduce the i condemned policy to reduce the number of cesareans that women have in childbirth, these were the exact was on the website, we will work to reduce the number of interventions in childbirth and change the culture of the nhs so that birth is treated as a normal and non—medical event.