That was the general messaging and certainly the feeling, what was believed, what was in the organisation. Believed, what was in the oruanisation. ,. , � , believed, what was in the oruanisation. ,. � ,. , organisation. Sea cant identify an individual . Organisation. Sea cant identify an individual . Know organisation. Sea cant identify an individual . Know and organisation. Sea cant identify an individual . Know and it organisation. Sea cant identify an individual . Know and it would organisation. Sea cant identify an| individual . Know and it would have been over a individual . Know and it would have been over a number individual . Know and it would have been over a number of individual . Know and it would have been over a number of years. Individual . Know and it would have been over a number of years. It. Been over a number of years. It wouldnt have been just one person. That was the understanding within the organisation at the time. There are parts of the organisation i wasnt aware of that ive since seen quite damaging documents on, but i wasnt aware of that. What quite damaging documents on, but i wasnt aware of that. Wasnt aware of that. What are you referrin wasnt aware of that. What are you referring to . Wasnt aware of that. What are you referring to . Just wasnt aware of that. What are you referring to . Just the wasnt aware of that. What are you referring to . Just the comments i wasnt aware of that. What are you referring to . Just the comments in j referring to . Just the comments in the receipts referring to . Just the comments in the receipts and referring to . Just the comments in the receipts and mismatch, referring to . Just the comments in the receipts and mismatch, those | the receipts and mismatch, those types of. We need to keep this quiet, we dont want the Horizon Integrity to become known. Those are the things i referring to. Itruilren integrity to become known. Those are the things i referring to. The things i referring to. When we asked questions the things i referring to. When we asked questions of the things i referring to. When we asked questions of those the things i referring to. When we asked questions of those people i the things i referring to. When we | asked questions of those people at those asked questions of those people at those levels, they say it was the people those levels, they say it was the people above us telling us that horizon people above us telling us that horizon is the largest system out site defence in europe, very secure, processes, site defence in europe, very secure, processes, millions of transactions a day, processes, millions of transactions a day, billions of transactions a year. A day, billions of transactions a year. There a day, billions of transactions a year, there is no faults with horizon. Year, there is no faults with horizon, it has been independently assessed, horizon, it has been independently assessed, auditors have given it a clean assessed, auditors have given it a clean bill assessed, auditors have given it a clean bill of assessed, auditors have given it a clean bill of health, it was the people clean bill of health, it was the people above us, ie you, that were passing people above us, ie you, that were passing that message down us as gold well, it passing that message down us as gold well, it wasnt me at my level then because well, it wasnt me at my level then because i well, it wasnt me at my level then because i wasnt at that level. If you because i wasnt at that level. You look at because i wasnt at that level. If you look at the Distribution List on here, i was one of the morejunior people on this list. As i said, id just started coming to this and therefore i wouldnt have challenged and i would have taken everything on face value at this time because i was new to this space. I face value at this time because i was new to this space. Face value at this time because i was new to this space. I think you were responsible was new to this space. I think you were Responsible For was new to this space. I think you i were Responsible For communicating the post were Responsible For communicating the post office s messaging to ministers, members of parliaments. No. ,. , ministers, members of parliaments. No. ,. ,. , no. Did you not attend meetings with mp5 . I no. Did you not attend meetings with mps . I would no. Did you not attend meetings with mps . I would have no. Did you not attend meetings with mps . I would have but no. Did you not attend meetings with mps . I would have but not no. Did you not attend meetings with mps . I would have but not at no. Did you not attend meetings with mps . I would have but not at this mps . I would have but not at this time. In terms mps . I would have but not at this time. In terms of mps . I would have but not at this time. In terms of the mps . I would have but not at this time. In terms of the meetings i l time. In terms of the meetings i attended with mp5, it was 2012, as we were getting into that second site investigations and obviously we have documents that refer to those. Prior to this, i would have been working in a regionalised role, i might have had some local meetings with mp5 but it would have been other normal business that i cant remember exactly but it was in 2012 i really started getting involved in this. , ~ ,. This. You met with mps twice, i think, on this. You met with mps twice, i think, on the this. You met with mps twice, i think, on the 10th this. You met with mps twice, i think, on the 10th of this. You met with mps twice, i think, on the 10th of may this. You met with mps twice, i think, on the 10th Of May 2012 | this. You met with mps twice, i i think, on the 10th Of May 2012 and the 18th think, on the 10th Of May 2012 and the 18th of think, on the 10th Of May 2012 and the 18th ofjune 2012. That think, on the 10th Of May 2012 and the 18th of june 2012. The 18th ofjune 2012. That is correct. And the 18th ofjune 2012. That is correct. And that the 18th ofjune 2012. That is correct. And that is the 18th ofjune 2012. That is correct. And that is prior the 18th ofjune 2012. That is correct. And that is prior to l the 18th of june 2012. That is | correct. And that is prior to the second site correct. And that is prior to the second site interim correct. And that is prior to the second site interim report, second site interim report, obviously one year before then. It obviously one year before then. [it was obviously one year before then. Was before obviously one year before then. It was before second site had been engaged, actually. find was before second site had been engaged, actually. Was before second site had been engaged, actually. And can we look at the second engaged, actually. And can we look at the second of engaged, actually. And can we look at the second of those engaged, actually. And can we look at the second of those meetings i at the second of those meetings which at the second of those meetings which you at the second of those meetings which you attended with six mps, i think. Which you attended with six mps, i think. By which you attended with six mps, i think, by looking at the next document. Can you see the Attendee List . Yes. We can see can you see the Attendee List . Yes. We can see that can you see the Attendee List . Yes. We can see that it can you see the Attendee List . Res we can see that it includes you and this is we can see that it includes you and this is the we can see that it includes you and this is the minutes of the meeting of the this is the minutes of the meeting of the 18th ofjune. Can we look please of the 18th ofjune. Can we look please at of the 18th ofjune. Can we look please at the foot of page one . Alice please at the foot of page one . Alice perkins, then the chairman of the company, gave Background Information and the post offices perspective. It is a completely separate perspective. It is a completely separate entity, she became aware of the issue separate entity, she became aware of the issue when she joined in august 201i the issue when she joined in august 201i it the issue when she joined in august 201i it was the issue when she joined in august 2011. It was very serious. The post office 2011. It was very serious. The post office recognised full well the matter office recognised full well the matter was very serious for Sub Postmasters and sup mistress. Over the Sub Postmasters and sup mistress. Over the page. Sub postmasters and sup mistress. Overthe page. Sub mistresses Sub Postmasters and sup mistress. Over the page. Sub mistresses sub postmistress. Treading a tightrope regarding questions of money tightrope regarding questions of money. The post office are stewards of large money. The post office are stewards of large quantities of cash, the cash of large quantities of cash, the cash doesnt belong to the post office, cash doesnt belong to the post office, it cash doesnt belong to the post office, it is in transit as it comes through office, it is in transit as it comes through the office, it is in transit as it comes through the post office. There is the issue through the post office. There is the issue of trying to not put temptation in peoples way. Then paula temptation in peoples way. Then Paula Vennells begins by saying temptation is an issue but that trust temptation is an issue but that trust in temptation is an issue but that trust in the post office is a brand is absolutely paramount. Were you involved is absolutely paramount. Were you involved in is absolutely paramount. Were you involved in briefing Paula Vennells or alice involved in briefing Paula Vennells or Alice Perkins for this meeting . Not in or Alice Perkins for this meeting . Not in relation to the narrative you are seeing here. What i had been asked to do for the may meeting was there was two cases that they wanted me to be able to pull the information together on to be able to talk through at the first meeting and the two cases where Thejo Hamilton Tracey Merit case, they were the constituents for both of those mps. That is what i was asked to do. Then that float, Thejune Meeting was a follow up then that float. With an extended audience. My involvement wasnt in pulling together the Briefing Information other than my specific slot on the agenda, as it were. Other than my specific slot on the agenda, as it were. Where you party to any discussion agenda, as it were. Where you party to any discussion with agenda, as it were. Where you party to any discussion with either agenda, as it were. Where you party to any discussion with either or to any discussion with either or both to any discussion with either or both of to any discussion with either or both of miss perkins or miss vennells both of miss perkins or miss vennells beforehand in which it was decided vennells beforehand in which it was decided that the thing that should be mentioned is the temptation that faces Sub Postmasters . No. We should faces subpostmasters . No. We should t faces Sub Postmasters . No we should try and faces Sub Postmasters . We should try and drop a faces Sub Postmasters . Tip. We should try and drop a little poison in the mps is . Try and drop a little poison in the mps is . ,. Try and drop a little poison in the mps is . ,. ,. ,. , � try and drop a little poison in the mpsis . ,. ,. ,. , mps is . Not at all, wasnt party to that conversation. Mps is . Not at all, wasnt party to that conversation. Was mps is . Not at all, wasnt party to that conversation. Was there mps is . Not at all, wasnt party to that conversation. Was there a that conversation. Was there a deliberate that conversation. Was there a deliberate strategy that conversation. Was there a deliberate strategy to that conversation. Was there a deliberate strategy to put that conversation. Was there a deliberate strategy to put that | that conversation. Was there a deliberate strategy to put that idea in the deliberate strategy to put that idea in the mps mind right in the beginning of the meeting, focusing on the beginning of the meeting, focusing on the Temptation Faced by Sub Postmasters . | on the Temptation Faced by subpostmasters . On the Temptation Faced by subpostmasters . On the Temptation Faced by sub ostmasters . , � ~ subpostmasters . I dont think there was but i cant subpostmasters . I dont think there was but i cant comment. Subpostmasters . I dont think there was but i cant comment. If subpostmasters . I dont think there was but i cant comment. If i subpostmasters . I dont think there was but i cant comment. If i go was but i cant comment. If i go back to the may meeting, i wasnt in all of the meeting with the mp5 so the formats of the running order was that it was alice and paula, im not sure if alwyn actually met with the mp5. The agenda had a number of people on there, i was one of them and i had a slot so basically we were waiting outside the meeting room in the cafe area of the building, i think. Room in the cafe area of the building, ithink. We room in the cafe area of the building, i think. We were called in to do our slots. I wasnt party to the preamble for that meeting. Miss vennells continues. The preamble for that meeting. Miss vennells continues. Of the 11,800 employed, vennells continues. Of the 11,800 employed, only a tiny number are present employed, only a tiny number are present in employed, only a tiny number are present in cases where there is an issue present in cases where there is an issue of present in cases where there is an issue of alleged fraud. The problem issue of alleged fraud. The problem is therefore relatively small. The horizon is therefore relatively small. The Horizon System is very secure, every keystroke Horizon System is very secure, every keystroke used by someone using the system keystroke used by someone using the system is keystroke used by someone using the system is recorded and auditable. Did you system is recorded and auditable. Did you know that that was the case . Not first hand, no. Did did you know that that was the case . Not firsthand, no. Not firsthand, no. Did you believe what she said not firsthand, no. Did you believe what she said that not firsthand, no. Did you believe what she said that every not firsthand, no. Did you believe what she said that every keystroke | what she said that every keystroke used by what she said that every keystroke used by anyone using the system is recorded used by anyone using the system is recorded and auditable . | used by anyone using the system is recorded and auditable . I believed, that was my recorded and auditable . I believed, that was my ceo, recorded and auditable . I believed, that was my ceo, i recorded and auditable . I believed, that was my ceo, i had recorded and auditable . I believed, that was my ceo, i had no recorded and auditable . I believed, that was my ceo, i had no reason l recorded and auditable . I believed, l that was my ceo, i had no reason not to believe her. D0 that was my ceo, i had no reason not to believe her to believe her. Do you know who briefed her . To believe her. Do you know who briefed her . I to believe her. Do you know who briefed her . I dont. To believe her. Do you know who briefed her . I dont. What to believe her. Do you know who briefed her . I dont. What would normally happen briefed her . I dont. What would normally happen is briefed her . I dont. What would normally happen is the briefed her . I dont. What would normally happen is the briefing i normally happen is the briefing would come from the relevant departments, i would would come from the relevant departments, iwould have would come from the relevant departments, i would have expected it to come from our it function and that would have been, leslie was the chief Information Officer at the time. ~. ,. , time. Would you expect therefore that to come time. Would you expect therefore that to come from time. Would you expect therefore that to come from leslie time. Would you expect therefore that to come from leslie saul, i time. Would you expect therefore | that to come from leslie saul, the chief that to come from leslie saul, the chief Information Officer . That would be my chief Information Officer . Trust would be my expectation but i dont know if that happened. Flan would be my expectation but i dont know if that happened. Would be my expectation but i dont know if that happened. Can we move on in the meeting know if that happened. Can we move on in the meeting please, know if that happened. Can we move on in the meeting please, to know if that happened. Can we move on in the meeting please, to page i on in the meeting please, to page three . On in the meeting please, to page three . One of the mps, Andrew Brixton three . One of the mps, Andrew Brixton at three . One of the mps, Andrew Brixton at the top of the page, Asked Brixton at the top of the page, asked where there had been any case where asked where there had been any case where the asked where there had been any case where the discrepancy had been. Three where the discrepancy had been. Three passages up from the foot that is been three passages up from the foot that is been displayed there, Paula Vennells is been displayed there, Paula Vennells said tha