might not be so sure. she's with us, too. paddy harverson knows the royals�* secret world — he used to work with with the waleses. hejoins us, too. a reminder from the stage of the truth — with his new co—star, actor brian cox is back. the great thing about the theatre is what we can do in the theatre, which is happening less and less in the world — particularly in politics — is telling the truth. and we are truth—tellers. morning, morning. with me on this busy sunday, armando ianucci, writer, and satirist and of course creator of the thick of it, victoria newton, the editor of the sun, and imran ahmed, who worked for labour but now is boss of the center for countering digital hate. and since armando�*s here, and as we talk a lot about politics, we couldn't resist a reminder of this. it's a bleep lockdown, right now! oh, come off it! we're not in a prison drama, are we? we are in a prison drama - this is th— shawshank redemption, right? but with more tunnelling through bleep- blee the thick of it. just a warning, the beeper machine might be busy today. jeremy hunt, anneliese dodds. real life or art? when i first saw the masterpiece i was in opposition and i thought it cannot possibly be like that in power.— like that in power. unfortunately i think we can _ like that in power. unfortunately i think we can all _ like that in power. unfortunately i think we can all say _ like that in power. unfortunately i think we can all say there - like that in power. unfortunately i think we can all say there are - think we can all say there are plenty of moments when it is all too true. ~ ., ., . ., true. like a documentary? what did ou think? true. like a documentary? what did you think? i — true. like a documentary? what did you think? i would _ true. like a documentary? what did you think? i would say _ true. like a documentary? what did you think? i would say i _ true. like a documentary? what did you think? i would say i found - you think? i would say i found olitics you think? i would say i found politics to _ you think? i would say i found politics to be _ you think? i would say i found politics to be much _ you think? i would say i found politics to be much less - you think? i would say i found - politics to be much less glamorous than reflected as being in the thick of it, _ than reflected as being in the thick of it. but _ than reflected as being in the thick of it, but probably more good—humoured as well, certainly not as funny— good—humoured as well, certainly not as funny as_ good—humoured as well, certainly not as funny as the programme. the good-humoured as well, certainly not as funny as the programme. the thick of it still as funny as the programme. the thick of it still on — as funny as the programme. the thick of it still on i — as funny as the programme. the thick of it still on i player _ as funny as the programme. the thick of it still on i player and _ as funny as the programme. the thick of it still on i player and always - of it still on i player and always worth a watch. let's crack on. making the news today... the prince and princess of wales dominate nearly all the front pages, saying they are enormously touched by the messages they have received following catherine's cancer diagnosis. the sunday times says the royal couple want social media giants to change, after conspiracy theories spread online about her health. we will talk a lot about that today. only the independent leads on that other huge story — the terrible attack in moscow. four suspects have been detained, after 133 people were killed. there will be plenty of coverage of that significant event across the bbc through the day. let us check in with the panel on the main headlines this morning. victoria, what has happened in the last few days, terrible news around princess catherine's health, huge story, highly unusual video statement released by the palace, was it planned all along do you think? was it a response to some of the craziness? i think? was it a response to some of the craziness?— the craziness? i understand the princess made _ the craziness? i understand the princess made the _ the craziness? i understand the princess made the decision - the craziness? i understand the princess made the decision two i the craziness? i understand the - princess made the decision two weeks ago she was going to do a public statement and the key thing for her as a mother, her priority was protecting her three children, she didn't want them going to school being asked more, already been affected by school, always had plan she would wait until the last day of term. they have endured an incredible amount of social media speculation which has been really hard for them to handle. the priority for her was always the children. this priority for her was always the children. �* , ., ., , ., ,, children. as an outside observer, what have _ children. as an outside observer, what have you — children. as an outside observer, what have you made _ children. as an outside observer, what have you made of _ children. as an outside observer, what have you made of how- children. as an outside observer, what have you made of how it. children. as an outside observer, | what have you made of how it has unfolded? ., ., , u, , what have you made of how it has unfolded? ., ., , , ., unfolded? unfortunately the case now is where there — unfolded? unfortunately the case now is where there is _ unfolded? unfortunately the case now is where there is a _ unfolded? unfortunately the case now is where there is a vacuum, _ unfolded? unfortunately the case now is where there is a vacuum, bad - is where there is a vacuum, bad things— is where there is a vacuum, bad things happen. the conspiracy theories — things happen. the conspiracy theories grow. he also showed there theories grow. he also showed there the events— theories grow. he also showed there the events in moscow. —— you also. it the events in moscow. —— you also. it allowed _ the events in moscow. —— you also. it allowed putin to blame ukraine, artificial— it allowed putin to blame ukraine, artificial intelligence created of someone from ukraine taking responsibility. the vacuum we have created _ responsibility. the vacuum we have created in _ responsibility. the vacuum we have created in our media is getting more toxic and _ created in our media is getting more toxic and dangerous and i don't know how easy— toxic and dangerous and i don't know how easy it— toxic and dangerous and i don't know how easy it is to contain.— how easy it is to contain. imran, this is your _ how easy it is to contain. imran, this is your line _ how easy it is to contain. imran, this is your line of _ how easy it is to contain. imran, this is your line of work - how easy it is to contain. imran, this is your line of work now, - how easy it is to contain. imran, i this is your line of work now, when you saw what happened in the last couple of weeks, did anything surprise you? was it more crazy? perhaps some viewers have encountered some of the stuff for the first time.— the first time. when you have a oun the first time. when you have a young lady _ the first time. when you have a young lady like _ the first time. when you have a young lady like the _ the first time. when you have a young lady like the princess - the first time. when you have a young lady like the princess ofl young lady like the princess of wales— young lady like the princess of wales who _ young lady like the princess of wales who has _ young lady like the princess of wales who has clearly - young lady like the princess of| wales who has clearly suffered young lady like the princess of . wales who has clearly suffered a medical— wales who has clearly suffered a medical emergency, _ wales who has clearly suffered a medical emergency, you - wales who has clearly suffered a medical emergency, you see - wales who has clearly suffered a - medical emergency, you see people flooding _ medical emergency, you see people flooding in— medical emergency, you see people flooding in with _ medical emergency, you see people flooding in with conspiracy - flooding in with conspiracy theories. _ flooding in with conspiracy theories, you _ flooding in with conspiracy theories, you see - flooding in with conspiracy theories, you see them i flooding in with conspiracy i theories, you see them being amplified _ theories, you see them being amplified on _ theories, you see them being amplified on social— theories, you see them being amplified on social media - theories, you see them being - amplified on social media platforms, pushed _ amplified on social media platforms, pushed to— amplified on social media platforms, pushed to millions _ amplified on social media platforms, pushed to millions of _ amplified on social media platforms, pushed to millions of people. - amplified on social media platforms, pushed to millions of people. what i pushed to millions of people. what really— pushed to millions of people. what really i _ pushed to millions of people. what really i think— pushed to millions of people. what really i think i— pushed to millions of people. what really i think i annoyed _ pushed to millions of people. what really i think i annoyed me - pushed to millions of people. what really i think i annoyed me was - really i think i annoyed me was seeing — really i think i annoyed me was seeing she _ really i think i annoyed me was seeing she was— really i think i annoyed me was seeing she was then _ really i think i annoyed me was seeing she was then being - seeing she was then being re—victimised _ seeing she was then being re—victimised by— seeing she was then being re—victimised by being - seeing she was then being - re—victimised by being blamed for not having — re—victimised by being blamed for not having come _ re—victimised by being blamed for not having come out— re—victimised by being blamed for| not having come out immediately. re—victimised by being blamed for. not having come out immediately. of course, _ not having come out immediately. of course, a _ not having come out immediately. of course, a family— not having come out immediately. of course, a family needs _ not having come out immediately. of course, a family needs to _ not having come out immediately. of course, a family needs to have - not having come out immediately. of course, a family needs to have its - course, a family needs to have its time _ course, a family needs to have its time and — course, a family needs to have its time and privacy _ course, a family needs to have its time and privacy. it— course, a family needs to have its time and privacy. it is— course, a family needs to have its time and privacy. it is the - time and privacy. it is the inhumanity— time and privacy. it is the inhumanity of— time and privacy. it is the inhumanity of the - time and privacy. it is the inhumanity of the way- time and privacy. it is the i inhumanity of the way social time and privacy. it is the - inhumanity of the way social media has made — inhumanity of the way social media has made us — inhumanity of the way social media has made us behave, _ inhumanity of the way social media has made us behave, forcing - inhumanity of the way social medial has made us behave, forcing people to talk— has made us behave, forcing people to talk about — has made us behave, forcing people to talk about things _ has made us behave, forcing people to talk about things that _ has made us behave, forcing people to talk about things that can - has made us behave, forcing people to talk about things that can be - to talk about things that can be very deeply— to talk about things that can be very deeply personal. - to talk about things that can be very deeply personal. and - to talk about things that can be very deeply personal. and also| very deeply personal. and also seeing — very deeply personal. and also seeing of— very deeply personal. and also seeing of course _ very deeply personal. and also seeing of course the _ very deeply personal. and also seeing of course the impact. very deeply personal. and also seeing of course the impact of| very deeply personal. and also - seeing of course the impact of that on our— seeing of course the impact of that on our society, _ seeing of course the impact of that on our society, how _ seeing of course the impact of that on our society, how quickly - seeing of course the impact of that on our society, how quickly it - seeing of course the impact of that on our society, how quickly it was. on our society, how quickly it was picked _ on our society, how quickly it was picked up — on our society, how quickly it was picked up try— on our society, how quickly it was picked up by millions— on our society, how quickly it was picked up by millions of— on our society, how quickly it was picked up by millions of people i on our society, how quickly it was i picked up by millions of people and how much— picked up by millions of people and how much it — picked up by millions of people and how much it has _ picked up by millions of people and how much it has done _ picked up by millions of people and how much it has done damage - picked up by millions of people and how much it has done damage to l picked up by millions of people and i how much it has done damage to the royal family — how much it has done damage to the royal family hie _ how much it has done damage to the royal family-— royal family. we will talk a lot about that _ royal family. we will talk a lot about that this _ royal family. we will talk a lot about that this morning. - royal family. we will talk a lot about that this morning. we l royal family. we will talk a lot - about that this morning. we have spoken a lot about social media on the programme. let us think about how it is affecting the royal family and the institution. last night kensington palace issued a statement saying the prince and princess of wales have been enormously touched by the messages they have received from people in this country and around the world. they said they are grateful for the understanding of the request for their privacy asa as a family. paddy harverson was communications secretary to prince william and knows the family well. he first knew catherine as kate when she was william's unknown girlfriend years ago, how do you think they will be coping as a family with this? i will be coping as a family with this? ~ , ., , ., , , this? i think better than probably --eole this? i think better than probably people realise. _ this? i think better than probably people realise. they _ this? i think better than probably people realise. they are - this? i think better than probably people realise. they are very - this? i think better than probably i people realise. they are very strong as a couple and individually. i remember when i first met her as kate every now and then when she was being hounded by the press she would ring me in the middle of the night, i don't want to bother you, there are paparazzi outside, men in the car chasing me. she did not want to make a fuss but she felt she needed help. i am confident in them as a couple and individually they will get through this. irate couple and individually they will get through this.— couple and individually they will get through this. we heard from victoria the _ get through this. we heard from victoria the decision _ get through this. we heard from victoria the decision to - get through this. we heard from victoria the decision to make - get through this. we heard from victoria the decision to make a l victoria the decision to make a statement like this was made before the frantic speculation on social media. who do you point at for creating the situation, creating the pressure? do you think the mainstream media made it worse while social media was doing its crazy thing? it social media was doing its crazy thin? , ., ' social media was doing its crazy thin? , ., , , thing? it feeds off itself, permanent _ thing? it feeds off itself, permanent doom - thing? it feeds off itself, permanent doom loop, l thing? it feeds off itself, l permanent doom loop, the thing? it feeds off itself, - permanent doom loop, the worst i have ever seen. i have been in the media all of my career. ijust think it is partly what frustrates me and i have heard the word vacuum and i understand why people say that but we need to think about time, they are a family, a bit like you and i, lots of families have dealt with this. what do families need facing cancer? time, to come to terms with it individually, as a couple, and with the children. it took quite a bit of time. in that period, they needed to be quite common to process this, as the princess has said. then it was a question, when do we tell everyone else? i'm convinced if we have not had the madness of social media, if we had not had a mother's day photo mistake, they would have still done it like this, they would have waited until the last friday when the schools were breaking up to make the announcement. you when the schools were breaking up to make the announcement.— when the schools were breaking up to make the announcement. you say the mother's day — make the announcement. you say the mother's day photo _ make the announcement. you say the mother's day photo was _ make the announcement. you say the mother's day photo was a _ make the announcement. you say the mother's day photo was a mistake, i make the announcement. you say the | mother's day photo was a mistake, do you think the palace has handled this whole situation well? i do you think the palace has handled this whole situation well? i do but i su ose this whole situation well? i do but i suppose i— this whole situation well? i do but i suppose i am — this whole situation well? i do but i suppose i am biased, _ this whole situation well? i do but i suppose i am biased, some - this whole situation well? i do but i suppose i am biased, some are l i suppose i am biased, some are friends of mine. i think it is very difficult in that situation. it is notjust difficult in that situation. it is not just an difficult in that situation. it is notjust an institution, it is a family. you have to deal with individuals as you would anyone else. you have to give them space. while there might be communications pr thinking going on your mind, you have to remember they are human beings and you have to follow their lead to a certain degree. i take no issue with the way they have dealt with this. i think everything has crowded in on them, other than the minor photo mistake, everyone has made, i'm sure she wanted the picture to be as best as possible, she apologised. i do think we should give them time and space to heal. one final thought about the monarchy as an institution, for very sad coincidence, obviously, the king is now being treated for cancer, so is the princess of wales, the slimmed down monarchy, there are fewer of them to do the job, down monarchy, there are fewer of them to do thejob, do down monarchy, there are fewer of them to do the job, do you feel as someone who gave a lot of your life or working for the monarchy, do you feel that looks like a more fragile institution? i feel that looks like a more fragile institution?— institution? i would not call it fraile, institution? i would not call it fragile. this _ institution? i would not call it fragile, this is _ institution? i would not call it fragile, this is different. - institution? i would not call it fragile, this is different. we l institution? i would not call it i fragile, this is different. we had the blessing when i worked there of three working generations, the queen and the deuce of edinburgh, king charles, william and harry —— the duke of edinburgh. and the other members of the family. we have to come to terms with the new reality, fewer of them, everyone needs to understand that. they will still be busy, they will get over this, i am confident the king who i know well is incredibly strong and resilient and great spiritual person, i know he will get through it, like lies with the princess, and once they are through this sticky patch, —— and likewise with the princess. still very busy doing what they do in their own way.— very busy doing what they do in their own way. great to have you with us, paddy — their own way. great to have you with us, paddy harverson, - their own way. great to have you with us, paddy harverson, thank| their own way. great to have you - with us, paddy harverson, thank you forjoining us. i'm sure everyone watching will wish the royal family well. thank you very much. now, then, from the palace to politics — it was only three weeks ago that we last had jeremy hunt the chancellor in the studio just a few days before the budget — the last before the next general election. but he is, i'm glad to say, back with us today. it's worth saying that is unusual — chancellors are often seen but not particularly heard. after a terrible time, though, the government this week was able to cheer inflation falling to its lowest level in two years, after that uncomfortable spike and a real squeeze on people's incomes. could that news perhaps be why jeremy hunt is with us again today? thank you for being here. we will talk about the difference between you and labour as we head to the election, let's start with the here and now, has the cost of living crisis ended?— and now, has the cost of living crisis ended? . , , _, , ., crisis ended? perhaps i could start b sa in crisis ended? perhaps i could start by saying my _ crisis ended? perhaps i could start by saying my thoughts _ crisis ended? perhaps i could start by saying my thoughts are - crisis ended? perhaps i could start by saying my thoughts are also - crisis ended? perhaps i could start. by saying my thoughts are also with the princess of wales and the king? how much we admired their incredible stoicism. on the cost of living, we have had a very tough patch, caused actually by something you have been talking about this morning, the invasion of ukraine, what has been happening in russia, and i think people will welcome the fact inflation has fallen. but we are not there yet and we need to stick to there yet and we need to stick to the course because we need inflation to get down to 2%, the thing that will make the biggest difference for families up and down the country is when interest rates full and therefore mortgage rates starts to full. —— start to fall. it comes in prospect when inflation is back at 2%. prospect when inflation is back at 296. ., , ., , ., , ., 296. lots of things are still going u - , 296. lots of things are still going up. private _ 296. lots of things are still going up, private rent _ 296. lots of things are still going up, private rent at _ 296. lots of things are still going up, private rent at 996 _ 296. lots of things are still going up, private rent at 996 since - 296. lots of things are still going i up, private rent at 996 since 2023, up, private rent at 9% since 2023, council tax average house at by 5.1%, petrol prices up 2.3 p since january, yet your colleague andrea leadsom said the cost of living crisis has ended. you yourself said this week £100,000 was not a great salary. isn't there a danger you sound like you are in a parallel universe? i sound like you are in a parallel universe?— sound like you are in a parallel universe? . , , universe? i said that because i was talkin to universe? i said that because i was talking to a — universe? i said that because i was talking to a constituent _ universe? i said that because i was talking to a constituent who - universe? i said that because i was talking to a constituent who was i talking to a constituent who was saying even on what most people would think, she recognised what most people would consider is a very high salary, when you have house prices around £600,000, child care, does not go as far as you think. we say you should not take the high level of tax that has been necessary to deal with the costs of the pandemic and the energy crisis as permanent and when it is affordable and responsible, for people at all income levels, we would like to bring down taxes. fin income levels, we would like to bring down taxes.— income levels, we would like to bring down taxes. on that point, i want to press _ bring down taxes. on that point, i want to press you _ bring down taxes. on that point, i want to press you on _ bring down taxes. on that point, i want to press you on this, - bring down taxes. on that point, i want to press you on this, you - bring down taxes. on that point, i | want to press you on this, you said £100,000 is not a huge salary, even in your own area, in surrey, the average full—time wage is not even half of that, £42,000. don't you think to many people hearing you say that, actually it sounds completely out of touch? i was talking to one of my own constituents who are saying that and i do accept that even in those higher salaries people feel under pressure. as you mention, the average salary in the country is £35,000, and what did i do for people in £35,000 in the budget? reduced their national insurance contributions by £900 in the next year. what did i do for people on a leave in lower salary, the national living wage, the lowest legally payable wage? that has gone up by record amounts to £11.44 which means if they work full time they will get an extra £1800. my commitment and the people i prioritise is actually people on lower salaries but i do recognise that everyone is feeling pressure stop all of our viewers know because we have talked about it a lot that, actually, by the end of this parliament most people will be worse off. .,, . this parliament most people will be worseoff. ., ,., , ., ., worse off. those are statistics and calculations _ worse off. those are statistics and calculations done _ worse off. those are statistics and calculations done by _ worse off. those are statistics and calculations done by independentl calculations done by independent organisations. and yet the prime minister is busy telling people the economy is bouncing back even though lots of people are still having a really hard time. do you really think, after everything that has happened, after the liz truss market meltdown, one of our viewers susan has spelt it out clearly. she wrote to say, i find has spelt it out clearly. she wrote to say, ifind it has spelt it out clearly. she wrote to say, i find it amazing that a government who oversaw this boasting of achievement. another viewer has messaged to say, do not allow the chancellor to claim responsibility for the fall in inflation. all they have done is wait for energy costs to come down. what do you say to those people who say you shouldn't be crowing about progress when people have had such a hard time? i people have had such a hard time? i would say we are certainly not. what we are trying to do its thing is things that help families up and down the things we did that helped fall in inflation was the energy price guarantee, which paid for half of people's energy bills, but also because we have the energy price cap, it has meant that prices have not risen as fast as they might. but you talk about living standards. what has actually happened since 2010, they have gone up in real terms by about £1700 for the average family. but obviously when you have a pandemic and an energy crisis, they are going to take a hit. what was encouraging was that the office for budget responsibility, completely independent from the government, said we are going to recover to pre—pandemic living standards next year, two years earlier than they originally thought. so although we are not out of the woods yet, people are feeling a lot of pressure, we can see that now inflation has come down, living standards which the obr it thought would fall last year, they have actually risen. we can see that we are turning a corner but we need to stick to the plan we have got because it is beginning to bear fruit. ~ ., , , because it is beginning to bear fruit. ~ . , , ,, because it is beginning to bear fruit. . . , , ,, ., fruit. we have seen this week and we can see what — fruit. we have seen this week and we can see what you _ fruit. we have seen this week and we can see what you are _ fruit. we have seen this week and we can see what you are trying _ fruit. we have seen this week and we can see what you are trying to - fruit. we have seen this week and we can see what you are trying to do - can see what you are trying to do politically, the prime minister saying the economy is bouncing back, you are trying, perhaps in a more subdued way, to emphasise that things are turning. but do you really think that the public is ready to hear that, when people have been so high depressed? we hear it every week from viewers that inflation was so high and when it was so high you said, that's not down to us, that is because of ukraine. now it is coming down it sounds like you are asking for credit. ~ ., sounds like you are asking for credit. ~ . ., , ., sounds like you are asking for credit. ~ . . , ., ., credit. what we are trying to do oliticall credit. what we are trying to do politically is _ credit. what we are trying to do politically is very _ credit. what we are trying to do i politically is very straightforward. the main reason people vote conservative is because they trust us to take the tough and difficult decisions that get the economy back on track. the decisions that get the economy back on track. . ., ., , decisions that get the economy back on track. _, ., , ., , decisions that get the economy back on track. _, ., , .,, , .,' on track. the economy has been off track wildly — on track. the economy has been off track wildly for _ on track. the economy has been off track wildly for a _ on track. the economy has been off track wildly for a long _ on track. the economy has been off track wildly for a long time. - on track. the economy has been off track wildly for a long time. not - track wildly for a long time. not for a long _ track wildly for a long time. not for a long time. _ track wildly for a long time. fiat for a long time. since 2010, we talked about this before, we have run faster than countries like germany. but in the last three years, yes, we had a once in a century pandemic, we had a 19705 style century pandemic, we had a 19705 5tyle energy shock, and what they have seen from this conservative government is that we have taken the really difficult decisions. i think the first time i spoke to you, the first interview after i became chancellor, i had to put taxes up, very difficult for a conservative chancellor. i had to cut back public spending plans. and there was very difficult decisions, what they expect from a conservative government, we can now see they are bearing fruit. government, we can now see they are bearing fruit-— bearing fruit. those difficult decisions — bearing fruit. those difficult decisions were _ bearing fruit. those difficult decisions were taken - bearing fruit. those difficult decisions were taken by - bearing fruit. those difficulti decisions were taken by you bearing fruit. those difficult i decisions were taken by you as chancellor because the person who sat in your chair before you had made huge unfunded tax cuts that sent the markets completely crazy. well, that was a mistake but that was corrected very quickly and in fact in terms of the market, they reflected that correction very quickly. the reason inflation was 11.1% when i took over is, i'm afraid, because putin decided to invade ukraine, causing a global energy crisis. that is in common with countries like america, france, germany. we have all felt the impact of that. that took very difficult decisions but there is a way to go but i think we're making progress. let's talk about the next few months because everybody knows the economy is likely to be of the list at the general election. your rival rachel reeves was here a couple of weeks ago and you are both sometimes criticised in5ide ago and you are both sometimes criticised inside your own parties and outside for sounding a little bit similar. some of the things you say are actually remarkably similar. i want to show you a couple of things. higher growth means more opportunity, more prosperity and more funding for our public services. economic growth is essential for raising living standards and funding strong public services. can you tell us which one of you said which sentence? because they are remarkably similar. i can they are remarkably similar. i can because i wrote _ they are remarkably similar. i can because i wrote the _ they are remarkably similar. i can because i wrote the sentence - they are remarkably similar. i can because i wrote the sentence at the top myself, so it was me. but yes, i agree. let me answer your question directly. agree. let me answer your question directl . �* , , agree. let me answer your question directl . �*, , i. agree. let me answer your question directl . �*, , ., directly. let's see if you got it riht. directly. let's see if you got it right- you _ directly. let's see if you got it right. you did! _ directly. let's see if you got it right. you did! you _ directly. let's see if you got it i right. you did! you remembered writing that phrase do you accept that there does seem to be an awful lot in common? the that there does seem to be an awful lot in common?— lot in common? the first thing i will say is _ lot in common? the first thing i will say is i _ lot in common? the first thing i will say is i like _ lot in common? the first thing i will say is i like and _ lot in common? the first thing i will say is i like and respect i will say is i like and respect rachel reeves and i think now this week is a big turning point because she has given a one hour lecture in which she has said what her economic policies are. there are some very profound differences. you are talking about the cost—of—living crisis. the question is not simply, how do we get through current difficulties? but how do we move decisively to higher growth, higher living standards? to do that we have to confront very difficult questions. i would say there are probably three that we need to confront. i don't think rachel has confronted those this week. if we are going to grow the economy, that means businesses will hire more workers. is that going to come from more migration or making work pay with the 6 million adults of working age who are not in work and not at university? she did not mention welfare reform or controlling migration once in over 8000 words of her speech. we have introduced free childcare, we have changed the rules on pensions so that people in their 505 who want to carry on working. mel stride's plans to make, bring people back into work, we will have 1 million people back in work. making work pay is a profoundly important part of the economic change we need to see. irate important part of the economic change we need to see. we will be s-teakin change we need to see. we will be speaking to _ change we need to see. we will be speaking to anneliese _ change we need to see. we will be speaking to anneliese dodds - change we need to see. we will be speaking to anneliese dodds from | speaking to anneliese dodds from leave it but are you saying that if there is a big difference on welfare, do you believe that you can make it harder for people to claim benefits in order to get them back into work? i benefits in order to get them back into work? ~ , ., into work? i think it is a mixture of carrot and _ into work? i think it is a mixture of carrot and stick _ into work? i think it is a mixture of carrot and stick but _ into work? i think it is a mixture of carrot and stick but labour. into work? i think it is a mixture i of carrot and stick but labour have ruled out sanctions and that is a very big thing. we need to say that people who are out of work would be much better off in the majority of cases in work and we need to do that. can i tell you something else? a very profound difference. how will we create the jobs of the future of our children... i we create the jobs of the future of our children. . ._ our children... i want to be clear. would you _ our children... i want to be clear. would you tighten _ our children... i want to be clear. would you tighten and _ our children... i want to be clear. would you tighten and increase i would you tighten and increase sanctions on people to get them back to work? it sounds like that's what you are saying, it should be harder still to claim benefits. that you are saying, it should be harder still to claim benefits.— still to claim benefits. that is what mel _ still to claim benefits. that is what mel stride _ still to claim benefits. that is what mel stride has - still to claim benefits. that is what mel stride has said - still to claim benefits. that is what mel stride has said and| still to claim benefits. that is i what mel stride has said and he still to claim benefits. that is - what mel stride has said and he said if people are out of work at 18 months he will require them to do a work placement. and changes in the work placement. and changes in the work capability assessment he has already announced, the office for budget responsibility says 400,000 fewer people will be getting a higher level of benefit. can i go back tojobs? you higher level of benefit. can i go back to jobs? you asked about differences. we have had many challenges. you talk to me about them on many occasions with the british economy. one thing we have been very good at is creating jobs. 4 million additionaljobs since 2010. that is 8000 people every single working day that the conservatives have been in office. the question is, how do we sustain that? and what we have now, and rachel reeves talked about that, about labour's new deal for workers. you have the president of the cbi, completely independent of government, saying that risks destroying the job—creating factory that the uk has become. you destroying the job-creating factory that the uk has become.— that the uk has become. you have also presided _ that the uk has become. you have also presided over _ that the uk has become. you have also presided over admitted - that the uk has become. you have also presided over admitted it i also presided over admitted it yourself, a lot of people falling out of the workplace often due to ill health, often because they can't get the treatment they need because of nhs waiting list being so long. you have clearly articulated there, i think, that you are open to squeezing the welfare budget further and making it harderfor people squeezing the welfare budget further and making it harder for people to claim on a different form of payment, when it comes to pensioners, what about the triple lock? you hinted this week that the triple lock, which guarantees the income for pensioners, keeps pace with inflation. you hinted that might be reviewed but will the triple lock be in the tory manifesto this time around? l triple lock be in the tory manifesto this time around?— this time around? i can confirm it will be, yes- _ this time around? i can confirm it will be, yes. there _ this time around? i can confirm it will be, yes. there are _ this time around? i can confirm it will be, yes. there are two - this time around? i can confirm it will be, yes. there are two very l will be, yes. there are two very important things i would say. when we came to office in 2010, pensioners were more likely to be in poverty and other income groups. now, because of the triple lock that we introduced, they are less likely to be in poverty and that is a very important social change because, unlike adults of working age, pensioners cannot work. they have retired. and so we need to respect that. but the second thing i would say is that is an expensive commitment.— say is that is an expensive commitment. , , , ., commitment. very expensive popular indeed. commitment. very expensive popular indeed- you — commitment. very expensive popular indeed- you can _ commitment. very expensive popular indeed. you can only _ commitment. very expensive popular indeed. you can only make _ commitment. very expensive popular indeed. you can only make that - indeed. you can only make that commitment if you are confident that she will deliver the economic growth that will pay for it. what we saw in the budget was, because we have a plan for growth, the obr sake we will get back to 2% or so growth over the next... we can make that important commitment. you over the next... we can make that important commitment.— over the next... we can make that important commitment. you have said it will be in the — important commitment. you have said it will be in the manifesto, _ important commitment. you have said it will be in the manifesto, the - it will be in the manifesto, the triple lock. will it be in the tory manifesto that it will be in place to protect pensioners�* incomes for the whole duration of the next parliament if the conservatives were to surprise the polls and turn things around?— to surprise the polls and turn things around? to surprise the polls and turn thins around? ~ ,,., , ., ,, things around? absolutely, we make that commitment _ things around? absolutely, we make that commitment to _ things around? absolutely, we make that commitment to pensioners - things around? absolutely, we make that commitment to pensioners and | that commitment to pensioners and think it is very important. let�*s think it is very important. let's talk about _ think it is very important. let's talk about another _ think it is very important. let's talk about another difference between the two parties. if the economy does grow convincingly, and if you are still in charge, if there is money to spare, what is your priority? giving more of that back to tax or putting it into public services that many believe desperately need cash? those two uestions desperately need cash? those two questions are _ desperately need cash? those two questions are totally _ desperately need cash? those two questions are totally linked. - questions are totally linked. because you... let me answer it directly. we do want to bring down the tax burden and, by the way, reducing the tax burden was not mentioned once in the shadow chancellor�*s speech. you are absolutely right, there is a big difference. l absolutely right, there is a big difference-— absolutely right, there is a big difference. , , , ., ,, ., difference. i will be speaking to labour later— difference. i will be speaking to labour later at. _ difference. i will be speaking to labour later at. we _ difference. i will be speaking to labour later at. we can - difference. i will be speaking to labour later at. we can only i difference. i will be speaking to i labour later at. we can only have a [an to labour later at. we can only have a plan to reduce _ labour later at. we can only have a plan to reduce taxes _ labour later at. we can only have a plan to reduce taxes if— labour later at. we can only have a plan to reduce taxes if you - labour later at. we can only have a plan to reduce taxes if you have i labour later at. we can only have a plan to reduce taxes if you have a i plan to reduce taxes if you have a plan to reduce taxes if you have a plan for public services because taxes fund public services. that is why, in the budget, even though money is very short, i found £3.5 billion to completely transform the efficiency of the nhs, our most precious public service, and our biggest. so if you are going to say we will make our public services better, our answer is we have to run them more efficiently and we are prepared to invest the money to make that possible. this prepared to invest the money to make that possible-— that possible. this is a question of --rincile that possible. this is a question of principle and _ that possible. this is a question of principle and your— that possible. this is a question of principle and your priority. - that possible. this is a question of principle and your priority. when i that possible. this is a question of. principle and your priority. when we asked rachel reeves this question, if there was money to spare, she said education would be her priority. that is where money to spare would go if the economy grows. what would your priority be with that first bit of extra cash if the economy does grow? that that first bit of extra cash if the economy does grow?— that first bit of extra cash if the economy does grow? that is my point. the tax cuts — economy does grow? that is my point. the tax cuts i — economy does grow? that is my point. the tax cuts i have _ economy does grow? that is my point. the tax cuts i have announced - economy does grow? that is my point. the tax cuts i have announced to - the tax cuts i have announced to date. 50 the tax cuts i have announced to date, ., ., . the tax cuts i have announced to date-— let - the tax cuts i have announced to date-— let me i date. so more tax cuts? let me answer. there _ date. so more tax cuts? let me answer. there is _ date. so more tax cuts? let me answer. there is i _ date. so more tax cuts? let me answer. there is i have - date. so more tax cuts? let me i answer. there is i have announced date. so more tax cuts? let me - answer. there is i have announced to date help to grow the economy. the obr says because of the decisions i have taken, gdp will be 0.7% higher thanit have taken, gdp will be 0.7% higher than it would otherwise have been. and so for conservatives, we look around the world and we notice that the parts of the world with lower taxes, north america, asia principally, have higher growth rates. so we say that actually lower tax is part of how you get higher growth and that is how we get money for the nhs and public services in the long run. 50 for the nhs and public services in the long run-— the long run. so you have given a hint of your— the long run. so you have given a hint of your priority. _ the long run. so you have given a hint of your priority. whatever i the long run. so you have given a| hint of your priority. whatever the big principal issues around tax and welfare are, whoever is in yourjob after the next election, they are going to have to deal with some very big unpaid bills, whether that is compensation for people who have been caught up in the infected blood scandal, people who were caught up in the horizon scandal at the post office, or it, this week, the decision from the parliamentary ombudsman to say waspi women who did nothing wrong, didn�*t get a pension expected, should be compensated and the government should do that. it is it the actions of a responsible chancellor to leave those huge unpaid bills or will you commit today, you can tell us, to compensating the waspi women? irate today, you can tell us, to compensating the waspi women? we are not ttushin compensating the waspi women? we are not pushing those — compensating the waspi women? we are not pushing those very _ compensating the waspi women? we are not pushing those very difficult _ not pushing those very difficult challenges to the right at all when it comes to infected blood, we have been absolutely clear we will pay compensation, it is a terrible scandal that has gone on for far too long. we are waiting for the report to be delivered on may the 20th. when it comes to the horizon scandal i have had a constituent of my own who was terribly affected. we absolutely will pay compensation, we are changing the law to make that possible. with the waspi women, it is genuinely more complicated and the reason is this. we have the ombudsman�*s report on thursday but we have also had a report from the high courtand we have also had a report from the high court and the court of appeal in 2020 that says that the department for work and pensions behaved completely within the law and did not discriminate. so it appears to say something different. and we do need to get to the bottom of that apparent difference between the two. 50 of that apparent difference between the two, , .,, of that apparent difference between thetwo. , ., . the two. so people watching will have to wait. — the two. so people watching will have to wait, even _ the two. so people watching will have to wait, even after - the two. so people watching will have to wait, even after years i the two. so people watching will| have to wait, even after years in. the two. so people watching will. have to wait, even after years in. i hope not. we want to resolve as we can but there is no vault, secret vault of money. the money we would pay in compensation has to so we do have to take time to get this fair. jeremy hunt, thank you very much for being in the studio. so soon after last time but always great to have you with us and later we will speak about the economy with labour�*s anneliese dodds. what do you think? let us know. email us at [email protected], or on social use the hashtag #bbclaurak for x and instagram. you can sign up to at bbc.co.uk/lauraknewsletter. goodness me. jeremy hunt, you can hear perhaps more subdued than some of his colleagues, victoria, trying to say, things are on the turn. do you think that government will get credit for what are perhaps some of the mythic green shoots or the economy getting worst? l the mythic green shoots or the economy getting worst? i think post-april _ economy getting worst? i think post-april interest _ economy getting worst? i think post-april interest rates - economy getting worst? i think post-april interest rates will i economy getting worst? i think i post-april interest rates will come post—april interest rates will come down and people�*s mortgages should come down but it remains to be seen how much an impact it will have before us expected october election, will they feel better off? that is the challenge for the conservatives. do you think people are starting to feel better off at all? hot do you think people are starting to feel better off at all?— feel better off at all? not yet. i think they _ feel better off at all? not yet. i think they will _ feel better off at all? not yet. i think they will do. _ feel better off at all? not yet. i think they will do. they - feel better off at all? not yet. i think they will do. they are i feel better off at all? not yet. i | think they will do. they are very much and decided who to support, a matter of trust, do they trust labour but equally are they really fed up with the tories, the question we ask all the time? figs fed up with the tories, the question we ask all the time?— we ask all the time? as well as all our we ask all the time? as well as all your writing _ we ask all the time? as well as all your writing with _ we ask all the time? as well as all your writing with the _ we ask all the time? as well as all your writing with the child - we ask all the time? as well as all your writing with the child poverty \ your writing with the child poverty action group, listening tojeremy hunt, what went through your mind? the very week the poverty report came _ the very week the poverty report came out — the very week the poverty report came out saying child poverty has gone _ came out saying child poverty has gone up _ came out saying child poverty has gone up yet again and it is almost like we _ gone up yet again and it is almost like we are — gone up yet again and it is almost like we are in a charles dickens novei— like we are in a charles dickens novel rather than the sixth biggest economy— novel rather than the sixth biggest economy in the world, now 3.6 million — economy in the world, now 3.6 million children in poverty. for every— million children in poverty. for every average class of 30, nine are in poverty — every average class of 30, nine are in poverty. to say that we are turning — in poverty. to say that we are turning a _ in poverty. to say that we are turning a corner and we are on the right— turning a corner and we are on the right track, — turning a corner and we are on the right track, while ignoring that, it was hard — right track, while ignoring that, it was hard for me to hear him use that phrase _ was hard for me to hear him use that phrase carrol— was hard for me to hear him use that phrase carrot and stick... was hard for me to hear him use that phrase carrot and stick. . ._ phrase carrot and stick... talking about welfare. _ phrase carrot and stick... talking about welfare. the _ phrase carrot and stick... talking about welfare. the implication i phrase carrot and stick... talking . about welfare. the implication being ou need a about welfare. the implication being you need a stick— about welfare. the implication being you need a stick to _ about welfare. the implication being you need a stick to beat _ about welfare. the implication being you need a stick to beat those - about welfare. the implication being you need a stick to beat those on . you need a stick to beat those on welfare. — you need a stick to beat those on welfare, those in poverty. lay aside the emotion— welfare, those in poverty. lay aside the emotion and psychological impact poverty— the emotion and psychological impact poverty has on children, shame, embarrassment, kids going to school pretending _ embarrassment, kids going to school pretending to have a packed lunch when _ pretending to have a packed lunch when they— pretending to have a packed lunch when they don't have anything in the box, not _ when they don't have anything in the box, not having had breakfast, going to school— box, not having had breakfast, going to school tired and stressed, laid out all— to school tired and stressed, laid out all the — to school tired and stressed, laid out all the side, it actually helps the economy, the fewer people we have in— the economy, the fewer people we have in poverty because it has the cutest _ have in poverty because it has the cutest impact on other services, education. — cutest impact on other services, education, children services, health " it— education, children services, health -- it has— education, children services, health " it has a— education, children services, health —— it has a huge impact will stop the more — —— it has a huge impact will stop the more people in deprivation. at the more people in deprivation. at the moment we are in a situation where _ the moment we are in a situation where we — the moment we are in a situation where we are coming up with policies putting _ where we are coming up with policies putting more people into poverty and therefore _ putting more people into poverty and therefore having a greater impact and detriment to the economy because of it. ., and detriment to the economy because of it. . , ., and detriment to the economy because of it. . y., ., ., “ and detriment to the economy because of it. . i. ., ., ~ ., of it. imran, when you look at the olitical of it. imran, when you look at the political situation, _ of it. imran, when you look at the political situation, used _ of it. imran, when you look at the political situation, used to - of it. imran, when you look at the political situation, used to work. of it. imran, when you look at the \ political situation, used to work in westminster, how do you assess what is going on? the economic debate is at the forefront, i know you are in the states now, how do you assess the states now, how do you assess the situation? i the states now, how do you assess the situation?— the situation? i still run an organisation _ the situation? i still run an organisation with - the situation? i still run an organisation with 20 - the situation? i still run an organisation with 20 staffl the situation? i still run an. organisation with 20 staff in the situation? i still run an - organisation with 20 staff in the uk and last— organisation with 20 staff in the uk and last year— organisation with 20 staff in the uk and last year was _ organisation with 20 staff in the uk and last year was really— organisation with 20 staff in the uk and last year was really difficult - and last year was really difficult having — and last year was really difficult having to — and last year was really difficult having to deal _ and last year was really difficult having to deal with _ and last year was really difficult having to deal with inflation - and last year was really difficult} having to deal with inflation pay rises _ having to deal with inflation pay rises for— having to deal with inflation pay rises for everyone, _ having to deal with inflation pay rises for everyone, we - having to deal with inflation pay rises for everyone, we are - having to deal with inflation pay rises for everyone, we are a - rises for everyone, we are a nonprofit— rises for everyone, we are a nonprofit making _ rises for everyone, we are a nonprofit making it- rises for everyone, we are a | nonprofit making it tougher. rises for everyone, we are a i nonprofit making it tougher. 0f nonprofit making it tougher. of course — nonprofit making it tougher. of course good _ nonprofit making it tougher. of course good news _ nonprofit making it tougher. of course good news for— nonprofit making it tougher. of course good news for us - nonprofit making it tougher. of course good news for us and i nonprofit making it tougher. ofl course good news for us and our staff— course good news for us and our staff as — course good news for us and our staff as well _ course good news for us and our staff as well because _ course good news for us and our staff as well because of- course good news for us and our staff as well because of course l course good news for us and our. staff as well because of course the cost of _ staff as well because of course the cost of living — staff as well because of course the cost of living crisis _ staff as well because of course the cost of living crisis has _ staff as well because of course the cost of living crisis has hit- staff as well because of course the cost of living crisis has hit them. l cost of living crisis has hit them. the opposition— cost of living crisis has hit them. the opposition you _ cost of living crisis has hit them. the opposition you made - cost of living crisis has hit them. the opposition you made he - cost of living crisis has hit them. the opposition you made he was cost of living crisis has hit them. - the opposition you made he was very subdued, _ the opposition you made he was very subdued, i've — the opposition you made he was very subdued, i've often _ the opposition you made he was very subdued, i've often found _ the opposition you made he was very subdued, i've often found with - subdued, i've often found with politicians, _ subdued, i've often found with politicians, the _ subdued, i've often found with politicians, the more - subdued, i've often found with politicians, the more frenetic. subdued, i've often found with . politicians, the more frenetic they are more — politicians, the more frenetic they are more likely— politicians, the more frenetic they are more likely to _ politicians, the more frenetic they are more likely to be _ politicians, the more frenetic they are more likely to be covering - politicians, the more frenetic they are more likely to be covering upl are more likely to be covering up bad news — are more likely to be covering up bad news with— are more likely to be covering up bad news with high _ are more likely to be covering up bad news with high energy. - are more likely to be covering up bad news with high energy. i- are more likely to be covering up. bad news with high energy. i think he was _ bad news with high energy. i think he was delivering _ bad news with high energy. i think he was delivering good _ bad news with high energy. i think he was delivering good news. - bad news with high energy. i think he was delivering good news. still} bad news with high energy. i think. he was delivering good news. still a party— he was delivering good news. still a party that— he was delivering good news. still a party that has — he was delivering good news. still a party that has delivered _ he was delivering good news. still a party that has delivered a _ he was delivering good news. still a party that has delivered a lot - he was delivering good news. still a party that has delivered a lot of- party that has delivered a lot of chaos _ party that has delivered a lot of chaos in— party that has delivered a lot of chaos in the _ party that has delivered a lot of chaos in the last _ party that has delivered a lot of chaos in the last few— party that has delivered a lot of chaos in the last few years. - party that has delivered a lot of| chaos in the last few years. four prime _ chaos in the last few years. four prime ministers— chaos in the last few years. four prime ministers since _ chaos in the last few years. four prime ministers since i- chaos in the last few years. four prime ministers since i left- chaos in the last few years. four prime ministers since i left the i chaos in the last few years. four. prime ministers since i left the uk. it is frankly— prime ministers since i left the uk. it is frankly bananas. _ prime ministers since i left the uk. it is frankly bananas. i— prime ministers since i left the uk. it is frankly bananas. ithink- prime ministers since i left the uk. it is frankly bananas. i think many. it is frankly bananas. i think many people _ it is frankly bananas. i think many people will— it is frankly bananas. i think many people will be _ it is frankly bananas. i think many people will be going, _ it is frankly bananas. i think many people will be going, great - it is frankly bananas. i think many people will be going, great news, } people will be going, great news, fantastic. — people will be going, great news, fantastic, but _ people will be going, great news, fantastic, but i _ people will be going, great news, fantastic, but i am _ people will be going, great news, fantastic, but i am not _ people will be going, great news, fantastic, but i am not sure - people will be going, great news, fantastic, but i am not sure if- people will be going, great news, fantastic, but i am not sure if the| fantastic, but i am not sure if the nation _ fantastic, but i am not sure if the nation trust — fantastic, but i am not sure if the nation trust them _ fantastic, but i am not sure if the nation trust them to _ fantastic, but i am not sure if the nation trust them to continue - fantastic, but i am not sure if the nation trust them to continue toi nation trust them to continue to govern— nation trust them to continue to govern this _ nation trust them to continue to govern this country _ nation trust them to continue to govern this country and - nation trust them to continue to govern this country and for - nation trust them to continue to govern this country and for thisi nation trust them to continue to i govern this country and for this not to revert _ govern this country and for this not to revert to— govern this country and for this not to revert to chaos _ govern this country and for this not to revert to chaos we _ govern this country and for this not to revert to chaos we saw - govern this country and for this not to revert to chaos we saw in - govern this country and for this not to revert to chaos we saw in the i to revert to chaos we saw in the last few — to revert to chaos we saw in the last few years _ to revert to chaos we saw in the last few years— to revert to chaos we saw in the last few years. victoria, what do ou sa last few years. victoria, what do you say to _ last few years. victoria, what do you say to that? _ last few years. victoria, what do you say to that? yes, _ last few years. victoria, what do you say to that? yes, no - last few years. victoria, what do you say to that? yes, no doubt i last few years. victoria, what do i you say to that? yes, no doubt the nation does _ you say to that? yes, no doubt the nation does not _ you say to that? yes, no doubt the nation does not want _ you say to that? yes, no doubt the nation does not want to _ you say to that? yes, no doubt the nation does not want to see - you say to that? yes, no doubt the. nation does not want to see another prime minister before an election, loud and clear, that would be absolute insanity. the loud and clear, that would be absolute insanity.— loud and clear, that would be absolute insanity. the fact they are even discussing _ absolute insanity. the fact they are even discussing it... _ absolute insanity. the fact they are even discussing it... light - absolute insanity. the fact they are even discussing it... light bulb - even discussing it... light bulb nronrent— even discussing it... light bulb moment in— even discussing it... light bulb moment in some conservative mps, why don't we _ moment in some conservative mps, why don't we get _ moment in some conservative mps, why don't we get rid of the prime minister? _ don't we get rid of the prime minister?— don't we get rid of the prime minister? , , . ., , minister? the public would be infuriated. _ minister? the public would be infuriated, total _ minister? the public would be infuriated, total madness. - minister? the public would be - infuriated, total madness. important we rive infuriated, total madness. important we give credit _ infuriated, total madness. important we give credit to _ infuriated, total madness. important we give credit to people _ infuriated, total madness. important we give credit to people when - infuriated, total madness. important we give credit to people when they l we give credit to people when they have done — we give credit to people when they have done the _ we give credit to people when they have done the right _ we give credit to people when they have done the right thing. - we give credit to people when they have done the right thing. they- we give credit to people when they i have done the right thing. they have brought— have done the right thing. they have brought inflation— have done the right thing. they have brought inflation down. _ have done the right thing. they have brought inflation down. one - have done the right thing. they have brought inflation down. one of- have done the right thing. they have brought inflation down. one of the l brought inflation down. one of the things— brought inflation down. one of the things about — brought inflation down. one of the things about politics, _ brought inflation down. one of the things about politics, we _ brought inflation down. one of the things about politics, we can - brought inflation down. one of the things about politics, we can be i things about politics, we can be cynical— things about politics, we can be cynical about _ things about politics, we can be cynical about its _ things about politics, we can be cynical about its ability - things about politics, we can be cynical about its ability to - things about politics, we can bel cynical about its ability to deliver what _ cynical about its ability to deliver what we — cynical about its ability to deliver what we need _ cynical about its ability to deliver what we need but _ cynical about its ability to deliver what we need but i _ cynical about its ability to deliver what we need but i know- cynical about its ability to deliver what we need but i know from i cynical about its ability to deliverl what we need but i know from my cynical about its ability to deliver - what we need but i know from my work this torv— what we need but i know from my work this tory government _ what we need but i know from my work this tory government delivered - what we need but i know from my work this tory government delivered the - this tory government delivered the online _ this tory government delivered the online safety— this tory government delivered the online safety act _ this tory government delivered the online safety act for— this tory government delivered the online safety act for example - this tory government delivered the} online safety act for example which has made _ online safety act for example which has made substantial— online safety act for example which has made substantial leaps- online safety act for example which has made substantial leaps and - has made substantial leaps and bringing — has made substantial leaps and bringing more _ has made substantial leaps and bringing more safety— has made substantial leaps and bringing more safety to - has made substantial leaps and bringing more safety to social. has made substantial leaps and - bringing more safety to social media platforms _ bringing more safety to social media platforms and — bringing more safety to social media platforms and the _ bringing more safety to social media platforms and the chancellor - bringing more safety to social media platforms and the chancellor has - platforms and the chancellor has delivered — platforms and the chancellor has delivered the _ platforms and the chancellor has delivered the reduction - platforms and the chancellor has delivered the reduction in- delivered the reduction in inflation, _ delivered the reduction in inflation, everyone - delivered the reduction in| inflation, everyone should delivered the reduction in- inflation, everyone should say thank — inflation, everyone should say thank i_ inflation, everyone should say thank... i feel— inflation, everyone should say thank... i feel like _ inflation, everyone should say thank... i feel like saying, - inflation, everyone should say. thank... i feel like saying, thank you chancellor, _ thank... i feel like saying, thank you chancellor, i— thank... i feel like saying, thank you chancellor, i feel— thank... i feel like saying, thank you chancellor, i feel like - thank... i feel like saying, thank you chancellor, i feel like they. you chancellor, i feel like they have _ you chancellor, i feel like they have done _ you chancellor, i feel like they have done a _ you chancellor, i feel like they have done a good _ you chancellor, i feel like they have done a good job - you chancellor, i feel like they have done a good job on - you chancellor, i feel like they have done a good job on that. | you chancellor, i feel like they. have done a good job on that. let you chancellor, i feel like they have done a good job on that. have done a good 'ob on that. let us talk about the — have done a good job on that. let us talk about the other _ have done a good job on that. let us talk about the other big _ have done a good job on that. let us talk about the other big story - have done a good job on that. let us talk about the other big story we - talk about the other big story we talked about briefly at the beginning and we spoke to paddy harverson who clearly, victoria, in his view, yes, social media has acted in crazy ways, like the wild west, also he was clear the mainstream media has played a part in creating some of the frenzy. a couple of weeks ago, you published this front page which said, lay off eight. pop up in a few seconds... you are sending that message, saying, leave her alone —— lay—off, kate. your paper paid full footage and shopping with william in windsor, i think, and shopping with william in windsor, ithink, and nine pages and shopping with william in windsor, i think, and nine pages in your sunday edition, isn't it a contradiction? } your sunday edition, isn't it a contradiction?— your sunday edition, isn't it a contradiction? i don't think so at all. iwas contradiction? i don't think so at all. i was moved, _ contradiction? i don't think so at all. i was moved, the _ contradiction? i don't think so at all. i was moved, the day - contradiction? i don't think so at all. i was moved, the day of- contradiction? i don't think so at all. i was moved, the day of the| all. i was moved, the day of the photoshop file, the world was attacking her, and wages, this poor woman was clearly ill and desperate that she tweaked a photo to make it look better, so i did the front page, really important, changed the narrative. a lot of the rest of the media started saying, back off, kate. i don't accept what you said earlier. reporting the fact i went out to the windsor farm shop a few days later, they knew if they went out in public and mingled with members of the public they would be seen and potentially photograph because everyone has a camera phone, it wasn't a photographer. i was in discussions with the palace all along and there was no problem with us running the images and it felt the nation was desperate to see her. the problem that the photoshop story came out _ the problem that the photoshop story came out and it was picked up by the likes of— came out and it was picked up by the likes of the _ came out and it was picked up by the likes of the bbc, main headline. can i oint out likes of the bbc, main headline. i point out the likes of the bbc, main headline. can i point out the bbc also use the video we obtained of them going to the farm shop? a tad hypocritical. what do you make of the situation, huge public interest, also people saying, give them privacy? difficult balance. it saying, give them privacy? difficult balance- it is. _ saying, give them privacy? difficult balance. it is, impossible - saying, give them privacy? difficult balance. it is, impossible situation| balance. it is, impossible situation they put— balance. it is, impossible situation they put in. — balance. it is, impossible situation they put in, we expect them to be normal— they put in, we expect them to be normal and — they put in, we expect them to be normal and yet we expect them to be special _ normal and yet we expect them to be special we _ normal and yet we expect them to be special. we expect them to be upfront— special. we expect them to be upfront and open, but we also like them _ upfront and open, but we also like them to— upfront and open, but we also like them to feel a bit distanced and on a pedestal — them to feel a bit distanced and on a pedestal. it is our problem, really. — a pedestal. it is our problem, really, because we come at them with a confused _ really, because we come at them with a confused set of expectations. it has a confused set of expectations. has always a confused set of expectations. up has always been for decades the issue, the contradiction, but now there is a new element with the online world and what happens on platforms like tiktok and x, this is your line of work, imran. tell us how it works. interestingly reported this morning that wales would like social media companies to do more to stem the tide of things that are untrue. what is really going on when we get this kind of frenzy. underlying it is a basic truth about the way— underlying it is a basic truth about the way social— underlying it is a basic truth about the way social media _ underlying it is a basic truth about the way social media platforms . underlying it is a basic truth about i the way social media platforms work. the algorithms. — the way social media platforms work. the algorithms, the _ the way social media platforms work. the algorithms, the way— the way social media platforms work. the algorithms, the way the - the algorithms, the way the platforms _ the algorithms, the way the platforms work, _ the algorithms, the way the platforms work, they- the algorithms, the way the platforms work, they take . the algorithms, the way the i platforms work, they take the the algorithms, the way the - platforms work, they take the most controversial— platforms work, they take the most controversial information _ platforms work, they take the most controversial information and - platforms work, they take the most controversial information and they. controversial information and they push _ controversial information and they push it— controversial information and they push it to — controversial information and they push it to the _ controversial information and they push it to the front, _ controversial information and they push it to the front, the _ controversial information and they push it to the front, the top - controversial information and they push it to the front, the top of- controversial information and they push it to the front, the top of the timeline — push it to the front, the top of the timeline you _ push it to the front, the top of the timeline. you are _ push it to the front, the top of the timeline. you are not— push it to the front, the top of the timeline. you are not really- push it to the front, the top of the timeline. you are not really seen. timeline. you are not really seen what _ timeline. you are not really seen what a _ timeline. you are not really seen what a billion— timeline. you are not really seen what a billion people _ timeline. you are not really seen what a billion people are - timeline. you are not really seen what a billion people are seeingl timeline. you are not really seen. what a billion people are seeing on social— what a billion people are seeing on social media, — what a billion people are seeing on social media, you _ what a billion people are seeing on social media, you are _ what a billion people are seeing on social media, you are seeing - what a billion people are seeing on social media, you are seeing a - social media, you are seeing a curated — social media, you are seeing a curated feed, _ social media, you are seeing a curated feed, curated - social media, you are seeing a curated feed, curated by- social media, you are seeing a curated feed, curated by an i curated feed, curated by an algorithm. _ curated feed, curated by an algorithm, set _ curated feed, curated by an algorithm, set by— curated feed, curated by an algorithm, set by the - curated feed, curated by an - algorithm, set by the platforms, designed — algorithm, set by the platforms, designed to— algorithm, set by the platforms, designed to be _ algorithm, set by the platforms, designed to be as _ algorithm, set by the platforms, designed to be as addictive - algorithm, set by the platforms, designed to be as addictive as i designed to be as addictive as possible _ designed to be as addictive as possible it _ designed to be as addictive as possible. it is _ designed to be as addictive as possible. it is promoting - possible. it is promoting controversy, _ possible. it is promoting controversy, promotingl possible. it is promoting - controversy, promoting conspiracy theories. _ controversy, promoting conspiracy theories. it— controversy, promoting conspiracy theories, it promotes _ controversy, promoting conspiracy theories, it promotes hate, - controversy, promoting conspiracy theories, it promotes hate, not i controversy, promoting conspiracy. theories, it promotes hate, notjust because _ theories, it promotes hate, notjust because people _ theories, it promotes hate, notjust because people agree _ theories, it promotes hate, notjust because people agree with - theories, it promotes hate, notjust because people agree with that - theories, it promotes hate, notjust because people agree with that but| because people agree with that but also because — because people agree with that but also because they _ because people agree with that but also because they disagree - because people agree with that but also because they disagree with - also because they disagree with that, _ also because they disagree with that, so— also because they disagree with that, so you _ also because they disagree with that, so you often _ also because they disagree with that, so you often get - also because they disagree with that, so you often get this - also because they disagree withi that, so you often get this effect where _ that, so you often get this effect where what gets _ that, so you often get this effect where what gets the _ that, so you often get this effect where what gets the promotion. that, so you often get this effectl where what gets the promotion is that, so you often get this effect - where what gets the promotion is the stuff where _ where what gets the promotion is the stuff where people _ where what gets the promotion is the stuff where people go, _ where what gets the promotion is the stuff where people go, it _ where what gets the promotion is the stuff where people go, it is _ where what gets the promotion is the stuff where people go, it is utterly. stuff where people go, it is utterly bonkers. _ stuff where people go, it is utterly bonkers. why— stuff where people go, it is utterly bonkers, why are _ stuff where people go, it is utterly bonkers, why are you _ stuff where people go, it is utterly bonkers, why are you saying - stuff where people go, it is utterly} bonkers, why are you saying that? 0ver— bonkers, why are you saying that? overtime — bonkers, why are you saying that? overtime it — bonkers, why are you saying that? over time it starts _ bonkers, why are you saying that? over time it starts to _ bonkers, why are you saying that? over time it starts to present - bonkers, why are you saying that? l over time it starts to present more frequently— over time it starts to present more frequently theories, _ over time it starts to present more frequently theories, the _ over time it starts to present more frequently theories, the illusory . frequently theories, the illusory truth _ frequently theories, the illusory truth effect, _ frequently theories, the illusory truth effect, the _ frequently theories, the illusory truth effect, the more - frequently theories, the illusoryl truth effect, the more frequently frequently theories, the illusory - truth effect, the more frequently we see something. _ truth effect, the more frequently we see something, the _ truth effect, the more frequently we see something, the more _ truth effect, the more frequently we see something, the more likely- truth effect, the more frequently we see something, the more likely we i see something, the more likely we think— see something, the more likely we think it _ see something, the more likely we think it is _ see something, the more likely we think it is to— see something, the more likely we think it is to be — see something, the more likely we think it is to be true _ see something, the more likely we think it is to be true and _ see something, the more likely we think it is to be true and popular. i think it is to be true and popular. that— think it is to be true and popular. that is— think it is to be true and popular. that is the — think it is to be true and popular. that is the sense _ think it is to be true and popular. that is the sense that _ think it is to be true and popular. that is the sense that everyone l think it is to be true and popular. | that is the sense that everyone is coming _ that is the sense that everyone is coming up — that is the sense that everyone is coming up with— that is the sense that everyone is coming up with conspiracy- that is the sense that everyone isi coming up with conspiracy theories about— coming up with conspiracy theories about x— coming up with conspiracy theories about x and — coming up with conspiracy theories about x and princess _ coming up with conspiracy theories about x and princess kate. - coming up with conspiracy theories about x and princess kate. a - coming up with conspiracy theories . about x and princess kate. a warning i would _ about x and princess kate. a warning i would give — about x and princess kate. a warning i would give to — about x and princess kate. a warning i would give to the _ about x and princess kate. a warning i would give to the media _ about x and princess kate. a warning i would give to the media in - i would give to the media in particular. _ i would give to the media in particular, please, - i would give to the media in particular, please, don't- i would give to the media in . particular, please, don't keep saying— particular, please, don't keep saying that— particular, please, don't keep saying that is _ particular, please, don't keep saying that is what _ particular, please, don't keep saying that is what everyone i particular, please, don't keepl saying that is what everyone is saving — saying that is what everyone is saving social— saying that is what everyone is saying. social media _ saying that is what everyone is saying. social media is - saying that is what everyone is saying. social media is not - saying that is what everyone is saying. social media is not the saying that is what everyone is - saying. social media is not the vox populi _ saying. social media is not the vox populi nor— saying. social media is not the vox populi nor is— saying. social media is not the vox populi nor is it _ saying. social media is not the vox populi nor is it a _ saying. social media is not the vox populi nor is it a safe _ saying. social media is not the vox populi nor is it a safe and - saying. social media is not the vox populi nor is it a safe and clever. populi nor is it a safe and clever place _ populi nor is it a safe and clever place to — populi nor is it a safe and clever place to get— populi nor is it a safe and clever place to get information - populi nor is it a safe and clever place to get information from. i place to get information from. actually. — place to get information from. actually. it _ place to get information from. actually, it can _ place to get information from. actually, it can be _ place to get information from. actually, it can be deeply- place to get information from. - actually, it can be deeply distorted as a lens _ actually, it can be deeply distorted as a lens on — actually, it can be deeply distorted as a lens on the _ actually, it can be deeply distorted as a lens on the world. _ actually, it can be deeply distorted as a lens on the world. these - as a lens on the world. these companies _ as a lens on the world. these companies and _ as a lens on the world. these companies and people - as a lens on the world. these companies and people who i as a lens on the world. these i companies and people who run as a lens on the world. these - companies and people who run the big companies _ companies and people who run the big companies like — companies and people who run the big companies like facebook _ companies and people who run the big companies like facebook and - companies and people who run the big companies like facebook and x, - companies and people who run the big companies like facebook and x, they. companies like facebook and x, they are rich— companies like facebook and x, they are rich enough— companies like facebook and x, they are rich enough and _ companies like facebook and x, they are rich enough and powerful- companies like facebook and x, they are rich enough and powerful enough to be able _ are rich enough and powerful enough to be able to — are rich enough and powerful enough to be able to sort _ are rich enough and powerful enough to be able to sort it _ are rich enough and powerful enough to be able to sort it out. _ are rich enough and powerful enough to be able to sort it out. just - are rich enough and powerful enough to be able to sort it out. just to - to be able to sort it out. just to make _ to be able to sort it out. just to make the — to be able to sort it out. just to make the point, _ to be able to sort it out. just to make the point, it _ to be able to sort it out. just to make the point, it is _ to be able to sort it out. just to make the point, it is not - to be able to sort it out. just to make the point, it is notjust. to be able to sort it out. just to make the point, it is notjust of course — make the point, it is notjust of course conspiracy— make the point, it is notjust of course conspiracy theories - make the point, it is notjust of. course conspiracy theories about princess— course conspiracy theories about princess kate. _ course conspiracy theories about princess kate, also _ course conspiracy theories about princess kate, also about - course conspiracy theories about princess kate, also about jews . course conspiracy theories about i princess kate, also aboutjews post the 7th _ princess kate, also aboutjews post the 7th of _ princess kate, also aboutjews post the 7th of october, _ princess kate, also aboutjews post the 7th of october, causing - princess kate, also aboutjews post the 7th of october, causing real- the 7th of october, causing real harm. _ the 7th of october, causing real harm. eating— the 7th of october, causing real harm, eating disorder— the 7th of october, causing real harm, eating disorder and - the 7th of october, causing real harm, eating disorder and cell. the 7th of october, causing real- harm, eating disorder and cell phone content. _ harm, eating disorder and cell phone content. all— harm, eating disorder and cell phone content. all of — harm, eating disorder and cell phone content, all of these _ harm, eating disorder and cell phone content, all of these are _ harm, eating disorder and cell phone content, all of these are given - harm, eating disorder and cell phone content, all of these are given the i content, all of these are given the advantage — content, all of these are given the advantage by— content, all of these are given the advantage by the _ content, all of these are given the advantage by the way— content, all of these are given the advantage by the way the - content, all of these are given the . advantage by the way the algorithms work -- _ advantage by the way the algorithms work -- eating — advantage by the way the algorithms work —— eating disorder— advantage by the way the algorithms work —— eating disorder content. - advantage by the way the algorithms work —— eating disorder content. imm work -- eating disorder content. we have work —— eating disorder content. have talked a lot about that. work —— eating disorder content.“ have talked a lot about that. maybe we will talk more at the end. thank you for now, all three of you. now he wasn't in the thick of it, but brian cox, no stranger to our studio, did dominate our screens as the brutal businessman logan roy in that epic drama nominated for a bafta just this week. his latest project is on stage in another unhappy family saga, alongside co—star patricia clarkson. i met them during rehearsals and asked, why is their new version of the american classic long day'sjourney into night worth a watch today? well, it's about dysfunctional families. and it seems to me that families since the 19505 have got even more dysfunctional. so i think that's one of the things that's very easy to identify with. i mean, it is... it's about, you know, traumatised people, addiction, which everyone faces in theirfamily. mm. love and forgiveness, which is sometimes the hardest emotions. it was also a play that was extremely difficult for him to write. he was in a lot of pain when he wrote the play, and it was a late play — it was the second—last play he ever wrote. but this play, apparently his wife used to say he would come out of his study and he'd just be weeping. he would just be in a terrible state. but that's what we do all day. we do that every day. i mean, i cried yesterday for about eight hours. yes, you did. oh, no, i had a lunch break. i wasn't there, i missed the lunch break. i got the bit afterwards. feels terrible, rehearsing it? you know, you've got to go there, you know, you can't cheat on it. and this lady is right there. you know, she really does extraordinary work. and, no, you do. thank you. there's no effort in saying that. and that's what's demanding. i mean, the play demands that you have to be totally truthful. as you say, it was a painful play for o'neill to write. i think he said it was written in tears and blood. yeah, it was. oh, yes. it literally was. what do you want people to take away from it, though? because you don't want people to be made miserable, presumably, by watching the performance. i think it's the truth. you know, the great thing about the theatre is what we can do in the theatre, which is happening less and less in the world — particularly in politics — is telling the truth. you know, we are truth—tellers. and that's the strength of the play — is its truth. there's quite a bit of humour in this play. oh, yeah. and we are finding that you realise i've got him — gorgeous him — and our two beautiful sons, and they're welsh and irish. there's a tremendous... there are moments in this play that will lift you... yeah. ..and you will fall again. it's a roller coaster. but it's also what the theatre needs to be. mm—hm. it's not just a question of the fact that it is daunting — everything we talk about, you know, in the negative. but in the end of the day, it's actually an extremely positive experience because it's what the theatre needs and what the theatre wants. and that's why it probably is, you know, arguably to some, the greatest american play ever written. yes. it's interesting you say there, "it's what the theatre needs," actually, in the last few weeks we've talked to some of your fellow actors about what theatre should be. ralph fiennes said, for example, that you should get rid of trigger warnings because people should be shocked. people should be shocked. they should be involved. they should be tested. absolutely. but in terms of the theatre and it demanding things of the audience, there is sometimes concern — particularly in the west end — that too many just hugely famous people are sort of dropped in to theatre in order to sell tickets. and, you know, some people are happy to pay £300 to see sarahjessica parker on the stage. some people don't have £300 to spend on that. but there's a director, jeremy harris, the writer of slave play, had criticised the casting of celebrities in plays, saying it's a sort of disney—fication of theatre. well, it depends what you mean by celebrity. i mean, its people who've earnt their spurs as actors, you know? you know, i've done a fair amount over the years in the theatre, and so has she. sarahjessica parker has done tremendous amounts of theatre, and she's fabulous. i mean, she should be starring in a play. it's kind of nonsense in a way, you know. celebrities, they don't even know what... half the journalists don't know what th they're talking about most of the time, quite frankly. they really don't. they make it up. you know, it's like easy copy. "oh, yeah, celebrities" — what does that mean? you know, they are hard—working actors who've earned their celebrity, through what they've done over and over. i've been doing this for 60 years, for god's sake. and some of the celebrities that have maybe been dropped in, they've never done theatre, but what if they're really great? mm—hm. what if they're really capable? and surprising. what if they're capable and exceptional, and they've been given a chance and you see them do shakespeare for the first time and it's illuminating? yeah. well, it's interesting — both of you, for the last decade or so, most of your work has been not in the theatre — whether in film or on tv screens. what's it like being back? laughter i think it's difficult for patty. i think she finds it hard being back in the theatre. stop! i wasjust here, seven years... well, you... you've been doing more theatre. but i was here seven years ago. you were, that's true. um... it's tough. it's... it's rigorous. and i have more respect for theatre actors than anyone in the world. not that i don't admire television and movie actors, but...this is the work — this is where... this is the grind. you do have a reputation for being tough, yourself. and... dol? we... well! i thought i'm a pussycat! he kind of is, for me. you are very pussycat. well, sarah stook, we talked to recently, and she said a few weeks ago that sometimes on set you would have a rage — you would fly into rages — but she wasn't sure if they were real or not. no, they were all fake! i mean, that was... that was to wake people up. you know, you've got to do that to wake people up because people become so kind of bland and so passe about what they're doing, you know? there's a way of doing it by being so self—absorbed. but you've got to say, - "for- sake, wake up!" i find him quite docile. i've not been daunting to you! i think i've been very sweet. oh, no, you've been... no, you've been lovely. very calming. brian and patricia, thank you very much indeed. thank you so much. you're welcome. thank you. earlier, we heard jeremy hunt keen to persuade us all that the economy's on the turn. but labour — who the opinion polls would suggest are on course to win the next general election — say if they do, they will inherit the worst set of economic circumstances since world war ii. anneliese dodds is chair of the labour party but knows a thing or two about the economy — she was the shadow chancellor. great to have you here for the first time. let's start with the here and now and, as we did withjeremy hunt, we'll talk about the differences between your economic proposals. at the last election you told your local paper, the oxford mail, that labour would compensate the waspi women. yes, for those retired we would work against pop clinical pensioner poverty, compensating waspi women. do you still believe waspi women. do you still believe waspi women. do you still believe waspi women should be compensated? unfortunately of course labour lost the last election. we did not win on the last election. we did not win on the agenda we set out to the general public in 2019 but also the circumstances have changed radically, as well. i think very few of us would have expected the mess, sadly, that liz truss made of our economy and that continues to be made under conservative led government. we are in different circumstances. however, that does not mean that we should not see very, very strong focus from government now that we have that ombudsman report on what happened with the waspi women. we need to see it now a response from government, thatis it now a response from government, that is what the ums bittman has asked for —— check out the ombudsman has asked for and we need to see what happens with this tobacco. waspi women who lost out feel they need compensating after years of complaining. do you still believe in principle that waspi women should be compensated? } principle that waspi women should be compensated?— compensated? i believe in principle those women _ compensated? i believe in principle those women deserve _ compensated? i believe in principle those women deserve respect. - compensated? i believe in principle| those women deserve respect. that compensated? i believe in principle i those women deserve respect. that is not m those women deserve respect. that is rrot my question- _ those women deserve respect. that is rrot my question- i _ those women deserve respect. that is not my question. i was _ those women deserve respect. that is not my question. i was to _ those women deserve respect. that is not my question. i was to sit - those women deserve respect. that is not my question. i was to sit in - not my question. i was to sit in our not my question. i was to sit in your studio _ not my question. i was to sit in your studio and _ not my question. i was to sit in your studio and i _ not my question. i was to sit in your studio and i was _ not my question. i was to sit in your studio and i was to - not my question. i was to sit in your studio and i was to say, i your studio and i was to say, plucking out of the air, this is exactly how, for example, compensation should work are delicate or other elements of the response to the waspi women i don't think there would believe me and nor should they. we need to have a well worked through response to this. that report is really detailed, i read it yesterday, 100 pages. the one thing crystal clear coming out of it is actually around they need to make sure that there are those lessons learnt and we are determined to ensure we would have an ironclad guarantee that people got the information they needed in a timely way, information that was tailored for those impacted by pension changes. obviously that is not what happened with those waspi women. that is very clear. but elements of the report that for example cover compensation are also clear that it is very, very complex and difficult. that is why government needs to look at it, get the civil servants to look at it, and then labour will examine that. } look at it, and then labour will examine that.— look at it, and then labour will examine that. . . ,., examine that. i have read the report and it sa s examine that. i have read the report and it says quite _ examine that. i have read the report and it says quite clearly, _ examine that. i have read the report and it says quite clearly, here - examine that. i have read the report and it says quite clearly, here are i and it says quite clearly, here are the different ways of compensation. it might cost between £3.5 billion and ten billion pounds and i think people listening might think, hang on, in 2019 labour were very happy to say this is how much we would give them. you said you would give them 58.5 and now you are saying, well, we need to look in detail at the reports. that is a change of position, and some of our viewers might think, actually, will this be another thing that keir starmer�*s labour party will ditch, like the promise of free tuition fees, like the idea of getting rid of the cat on families, the two child benefits cap, or ditching the nationalisations that you promised in 2019? is this another thing that will be dropped? } in 2019? is this another thing that will be dropped?— will be dropped? i think viewers exect an will be dropped? i think viewers expect an opposition _ will be dropped? i think viewers expect an opposition party - will be dropped? i think viewers expect an opposition party on i will be dropped? i think viewers| expect an opposition party on an issue of this significance to look at it really carefully stop you are notjust at it really carefully stop you are not just sitting at it really carefully stop you are notjust sitting on a tv studio... in 2019, the circumstances were different. we haven't had that liz truss mini budget which blew up our economy, which many people are still paying for integrated mortgage payments. we didn't see that economic mismanagement that we have seen since. but as i said, unfortunately, the general public actually rejected that manifesto that labour set out in 2019. they didn't support it, and therefore we need to ensure that, going forward, every single commitment that labour makes is fully funded, fully costed, if fully set out, but we also need to make sure that those women are treated with respect, and that is why, above all, as i said before, the critical thing here is that lessons are learnt and the political parties actually take that report seriously from the ombudsman. that is what we are doing. let’s seriously from the ombudsman. that is what we are doing.— is what we are doing. let's talk about what _ is what we are doing. let's talk about what you _ is what we are doing. let's talk about what you believe - is what we are doing. let's talk about what you believe the - about what you believe the differences will be in your economic proposals between you and the conservatives. the chancellor made it quite clear, if there was a spare money in the economy, he would want to cut taxes further. he made it pretty clear he believes you can squeeze the welfare budget further, and he also made it clear that, in his view, public services can be run more efficiently, they don't necessarily need more money. what do you think either differences in what you think either differences in what you would put forward? we you think either differences in what you would put forward?— you think either differences in what you would put forward? we have had 14 ears you would put forward? we have had 14 years now — you would put forward? we have had 14 years now where _ you would put forward? we have had 14 years now where none _ you would put forward? we have had 14 years now where none of - you would put forward? we have had 14 years now where none of those i 14 years now where none of those promises actually have been secured under the conservatives. we are seeing living standards likely to be lower at the end of this parliament than the beginning, the first time in recorded history that has happened. there is a very different approach from labour. rachel reeves has set out a plan to deliver that economic growth that we desperately need. it is on the basis of economic stability, making sure we have those fiscal rules that she set out a very long time fiscal rules that she set out a very longtime ago. fiscal rules that she set out a very long time ago-— fiscal rules that she set out a very long time ago. they are very similar to the conservative _ long time ago. they are very similar to the conservative wheels, - long time ago. they are very similar to the conservative wheels, not - to the conservative wheels, not identical but similar.— to the conservative wheels, not identical but similar. they are not identical but similar. they are not identical because _ identical but similar. they are not identical because we _ identical but similar. they are not identical because we are - identical but similar. they are not identical because we are clear - identical because we are clear government needs to invest to secure our economic future, that government should be able to do that. the conservatives' reels dis— incentivise that investment and frankly we have seen the impact of an inconsistent approach from the conservatives to this over many years. rachel reeves deliver cassette at those fiscal rules of many months ago and did that to provide the stability of a business in particular, so a big difference there. secondly, a big difference around ensuring there is investment. that comes from that stability but also from the national sovereign wealth fund for example that labour set out plans for, and then also because we would reform. the conservative simply cannot deliver reform in the areas that labour is setting out. our new deal for working people to make work pay, they would protect measures and planning also the once in a generation change to planning so we can get britain building again. they reject it, the backbenchers would not protect it, it rishi sunak is too weak. } not protect it, it rishi sunak is too weak-— not protect it, it rishi sunak is too weak. ., ., . . too weak. i was going to ask about our lan too weak. i was going to ask about your plan to _ too weak. i was going to ask about your plan to give — too weak. i was going to ask about your plan to give workers - too weak. i was going to ask about your plan to give workers more - your plan to give workers more rights from day one at work. you would expect the conservatives to criticise it but there has also been concern from some business organisations, some businesses themselves saying, hang on, this will cost an awful lot of money. we may not be up to afford it. even lord mandelson, in your own party, has cautioned you to think very carefully about doing something this big. how do you answer the fact that some businesses mightjust say this will add cost and we will be able to hire fewer people and it will backfire? ~ hire fewer people and it will backfire?— hire fewer people and it will backfire? ~ ., , . ~ . backfire? we cannot 'ust walk away from the need h backfire? we cannot 'ust walk away from the need to — backfire? we cannot just walk away from the need to make _ backfire? we cannot just walk away from the need to make work - backfire? we cannot just walk away from the need to make work pay. l backfire? we cannot just walk away i from the need to make work pay. we cannot do that. we really need to be boosting productivity in our economy, getting my money into people's pockets, and ensuring that we have far better conditions for innovation. if we don't have that new deal for working people to make work pay we just won't be delivering on those areas. we will not be securing the economic growth we need to see. labour is a pro—business party and a pro—worker party. both need to go together, which is what we set out in that new deal. we are going to continue discussing it with business, with trade unions, working people, as you would expect, because we need to make sure that living standards and economic growth are in a fight stronger footing than over the last 14 years.— the last 14 years. continuing to discuss suggest _ the last 14 years. continuing to discuss suggest there - the last 14 years. continuing to discuss suggest there may - the last 14 years. continuing to discuss suggest there may be i the last 14 years. continuing to - discuss suggest there may be regal room in the plans. finally, jeremy hunt said clearly the triple lock would be in the tory manifesto. will it be in the labour one? we would be in the tory manifesto. will it be in the labour one?— it be in the labour one? we will set out those plans _ it be in the labour one? we will set out those plans for _ it be in the labour one? we will set out those plans for our _ it be in the labour one? we will set out those plans for our manifesto . it be in the labour one? we will set} out those plans for our manifesto in detail. howeverwe out those plans for our manifesto in detail. however we don't want them to be threatened by the £46 billion black hole that unfortunatelyjeremy hunt is threatened with the national insurance changes.— hunt is threatened with the national insurance changes. anneliese dodds, t reat insurance changes. anneliese dodds, treat to insurance changes. anneliese dodds, great to have — insurance changes. anneliese dodds, great to have you _ insurance changes. anneliese dodds, great to have you in _ insurance changes. anneliese dodds, great to have you in a _ insurance changes. anneliese dodds, great to have you in a studio - insurance changes. anneliese dodds, great to have you in a studio for - great to have you in a studio for the first time. we're nearly at the end of the show, but here's a quick reminder of our earlier interivew withjeremy hunt, the chancellor. i asked if he would commit to the triple lock on pensions throughout the next parliament. here's what he said. i can confirm it will be, yes, and there's two very important things i would say about that. when we came to office in 2010, pensioners were more likely to be in poverty than other income groups. now, because of the triple lock that we introduced, they are less likely to be in poverty. i think that is going to be a huge part of the election campaign to come. armando, if you were writing a satire of politics now and maybe the election, long campaign, what would you call it? election, long campaign, what would ou call it? election, long campaign, what would oucallit? election, long campaign, what would ou callit? , ., you call it? gosh, i stopped doing the thick of _ you call it? gosh, i stopped doing the thick of it _ you call it? gosh, i stopped doing the thick of it when _ you call it? gosh, i stopped doing the thick of it when politicians i the thick of it when politicians like to turn up. i would call it really? because reality has taken a bit of a knock, there is so much fake stuff around. i think it is about getting to the bottom of what people are actually saying and whether it actually stands up and stacks up. we whether it actually stands up and stacks u-. ~ , whether it actually stands up and stacks u ., . , ., whether it actually stands up and stacksu-.~ ,~. , , stacks up. we try our best in the studio every _ stacks up. we try our best in the studio every sunday. _ stacks up. we try our best in the studio every sunday. i'm - stacks up. we try our best in the studio every sunday. i'm not - stacks up. we try our best in the | studio every sunday. i'm not sure stacks up. we try our best in the - studio every sunday. i'm not sure we 100% manage it. going back to one of those concerns earlier about things that are fake circulating online, becoming part of our politics. as another big publication, victoria, how do you deal with that? are you worried about the amount of fake stuff generated? we worried about the amount of fake stuff generated?— worried about the amount of fake stuff generated? we employ lots of 'ournalists stuff generated? we employ lots of journalists to _ stuff generated? we employ lots of journalists to separate _ stuff generated? we employ lots of journalists to separate fact - stuff generated? we employ lots of journalists to separate fact from - journalists to separate fact from fiction _ journalists to separate fact from fiction and fact check as much as we can, fiction and fact check as much as we can. as _ fiction and fact check as much as we can. as do _ fiction and fact check as much as we can, as do the bbc and it is an expensive _ can, as do the bbc and it is an expensive team ofjournalists that does that — expensive team ofjournalists that does that very well which is why we are much— does that very well which is why we are much more trusted, and should be, are much more trusted, and should be. than _ are much more trusted, and should be, than social media.— be, than social media. imran, in terms of where _ be, than social media. imran, in terms of where this _ be, than social media. imran, in terms of where this goes, - be, than social media. imran, in terms of where this goes, what| be, than social media. imran, in i terms of where this goes, what are your concerns question like your organisation at the moment is in a legal battle with elon musk, one of the richest men in the world. it seems like this is a whole new battleground. }t seems like this is a whole new battleground.— seems like this is a whole new battleground. it is, and are very unclear one. — battleground. it is, and are very unclear one, and _ battleground. it is, and are very unclear one, and that _ battleground. it is, and are very unclear one, and that is - battleground. it is, and are very unclear one, and that is part - battleground. it is, and are very unclear one, and that is part of| unclear one, and that is part of what _ unclear one, and that is part of what we — unclear one, and that is part of what we do _ unclear one, and that is part of what we do as— unclear one, and that is part of what we do as an _ unclear one, and that is part of what we do as an organisation, unclear one, and that is part of. what we do as an organisation, we bring _ what we do as an organisation, we bring clarity — what we do as an organisation, we bring clarity to _ what we do as an organisation, we bring clarity to things _ what we do as an organisation, we bring clarity to things that - bring clarity to things that actually _ bring clarity to things that actually platforms - bring clarity to things that actually platforms are - bring clarity to things that i actually platforms are really bring clarity to things that - actually platforms are really trying to hide _ actually platforms are really trying to hide from — actually platforms are really trying to hide from us. _ actually platforms are really trying to hide from us. how— actually platforms are really trying to hide from us. how their- actually platforms are really trying} to hide from us. how their content enforcement— to hide from us. how their content enforcement rules _ to hide from us. how their content enforcement rules were, - to hide from us. how their content enforcement rules were, their- enforcement rules were, their algorithms _ enforcement rules were, their algorithms. the _ enforcement rules were, their algorithms. the research - enforcement rules were, their algorithms. the research we i enforcement rules were, their. algorithms. the research we did enforcement rules were, their- algorithms. the research we did into x which _ algorithms. the research we did into x which caused — algorithms. the research we did into x which caused elon _ algorithms. the research we did into x which caused elon musk _ algorithms. the research we did into x which caused elon musk to - algorithms. the research we did into x which caused elon musk to see - algorithms. the research we did into x which caused elon musk to see usi x which caused elon musk to see us was we _ x which caused elon musk to see us was we looked _ x which caused elon musk to see us was we looked into _ x which caused elon musk to see us was we looked into how— x which caused elon musk to see us was we looked into how many- x which caused elon musk to see us} was we looked into how many times people _ was we looked into how many times people use — was we looked into how many times people use antique _ was we looked into how many times people use antique black, _ was we looked into how many times people use antique black, anti - people use antique black, anti jewish. — people use antique black, anti jewish, anti—lgbtq _ people use antique black, anti jewish, anti—lgbtq words. - people use antique black, anti i jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when people use antique black, anti - jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on— jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on that — jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on that front _ jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on that front page _ jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on that front page of - jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on that front page of the - jewish, anti—lgbtq words. when it went on that front page of the new} went on that front page of the new york times — went on that front page of the new york times it— went on that front page of the new york times it lost _ went on that front page of the new york times it lost him _ went on that front page of the new york times it lost him millions - went on that front page of the new york times it lost him millions in l york times it lost him millions in advertising — york times it lost him millions in advertising and _ york times it lost him millions in advertising and he _ york times it lost him millions in advertising and he sued - york times it lost him millions in advertising and he sued us - york times it lost him millions in advertising and he sued us that. york times it lost him millions in i advertising and he sued us that that is why— advertising and he sued us that that is why we _ advertising and he sued us that that is why we need _ advertising and he sued us that that is why we need statutory— is why we need statutory transparency. _ is why we need statutory transparency. we - is why we need statutory transparency. we have . is why we need statutoryl transparency. we have an is why we need statutory- transparency. we have an online safety _ transparency. we have an online safety act — transparency. we have an online safety act but _ transparency. we have an online safety act but not _ transparency. we have an online safety act but not online - safety act but not online transparency _ safety act but not online transparency and - safety act but not online transparency and we - safety act but not online i transparency and we need safety act but not online - transparency and we need a safety act but not online _ transparency and we need a statutory access _ transparency and we need a statutory access pathway _ transparency and we need a statutory access pathway it _ transparency and we need a statutory access pathway-— access pathway. x have said your organisation _ access pathway. x have said your organisation isn't _ access pathway. x have said your organisation isn't favour - access pathway. x have said your organisation isn't favour of - access pathway. x have said your organisation isn't favour of an i organisation isn't favour of an ideological echo chamber which conforms to your favoured viewpoints. we might see help that legal cases result in the next few days. the final word, armando? } paras days. the finalword, armando? i was talkint days. the finalword, armando? i was talking about — days. the finalword, armando? i was talking about fact _ days. the final word, armando? inn—3 talking about fact checking days. the final word, armando? }n—3 talking about fact checking singly. governments should stop trying to take money away from our public service broadcasters like the bbc and the threat of privatisation with channel 4. as we say, if we want something we can trust, it has to has substance and resources behind it. ~ . has substance and resources behind it. . ., . has substance and resources behind it. ~ . . ., , ., has substance and resources behind it. we have had lots of substance and lots of _ it. we have had lots of substance and lots of great _ it. we have had lots of substance and lots of great conversation - it. we have had lots of substance l and lots of great conversation from year three. thank you for being with us. and thanks to you for watching. i think this morning we have heard our politicians sketch out a few more of the contrasts between the two big parties when it comes to the economy. they are not a million miles apart when it comes to sorting out the current mess. they have the same rules on getting down the country's debt. but you can see the outlines of the different instincts they'd have for our futures. how they fill in the blanks is the work of the next few months to come. remember, you can sign up to our new newsletter that pops into inboxes every thursday, watch anything again on iplayer, including the thick of it from armando. or i'll catch you on bbc sounds with paddy o'connell a bit later today. or for the traditional among you, i'll see you next week — same time, same place. live from london. this is bbc news. ukraine claims to have had two russian ships and other key infrastructure used by russia's black sea fleet in crimea. also, russia launches missile strikes on ukraine — poland says one projectile crossed over its territory. a day of mourning in russia after friday's deadly attack on a concert hall near moscow that killed at least 133 people. the chancellor, jeremy hunt, has said that a triple lock for pensioners will be in the conservative manifesto. and the prince and princess of wales respond to the public support following catherine's announcement she is being treated for cancer. hello, i'm lukwesa burak. welcome to bbc news. our breaking news this hour — the ukrainian military has said it struck two large russian landing ships, a communications centre and other infrastructure used by russia's black sea fleet in crimea. a russian—installed official reported a major ukrainian attack overnight and said that air defences had shot down more than 10 missiles over the crimean port of sevastopol. let's speak to our the bbc world service europe regional editor, danny aeberhard. hello, danny. any for us? at this and that we _ hello, danny. any for us? at this and that we have _ hello, danny. any for us? at this and that we have got _ hello, danny. any for us? at this and that we have got a _ hello, danny. any for us? at this and that we have got a fairly - hello, danny. any for us? at this | and that we have got a fairly broad estate from the ukrainian military summing up what you just said there, that to landing ships had been