funding _ why we put an enormous amount of funding in_ why we put an enormous amount of funding in place to support them. for social— funding in place to support them. for social care, that largely goes through— for social care, that largely goes through local authorities. so one of the earliest things we did was provide — the earliest things we did was provide billions of pounds extra for local authorities in honouring fenced — local authorities in honouring fenced grants so they would have extra _ fenced grants so they would have extra funds to spend on the things they needed to at the time. that was done, _ they needed to at the time. that was done, i_ they needed to at the time. that was done, i cant— they needed to at the time. that was done, i can't remember exact what date, _ done, i can't remember exact what date, but _ done, i can't remember exact what date, but relatively early on in the pandemic — date, but relatively early on in the pandemic. with regard to social care in particular. — pandemic. with regard to social care in particular, i don't have any strong — in particular, i don't have any strong recollection of the conversations, is not involved with them _ conversations, is not involved with them to— conversations, is not involved with them to the — conversations, is not involved with them to the best of my knowledge. you reference the advice from hmt ministers — you reference the advice from hmt ministers. the minister responsible for spending was the one that was going _ for spending was the one that was going back—and—forth with the department of health on the various options _ department of health on the various options that were available. in the department of health advice, i don't remember— department of health advice, i don't remember the exact date, they considered, but were not convinced it would _ considered, but were not convinced it would achieve its aim. it was already— it would achieve its aim. it was already irr— it would achieve its aim. it was already in the balance. there were conversations happening between the chief secretary in the department, there _ chief secretary in the department, there were not ones i was involved in. , , . there were not ones i was involved in. , , . notto in. did they cross your desk? not to my recollection _ in. did they cross your desk? not to my recollection and _ in. did they cross your desk? not to my recollection and having - in. did they cross your desk? not to i my recollection and having reviewed best i_ my recollection and having reviewed best i can _ my recollection and having reviewed best i can some of the evidence at the time _ best i can some of the evidence at the time of— best i can some of the evidence at the time of the treasury, these specific— the time of the treasury, these specific two proposals on compensation mechanisms and things were dealt— compensation mechanisms and things were dealt with by him. in the event, — were dealt with by him. in the event, a — were dealt with by him. in the event, a general fund was established at some point for the social— established at some point for the social care — established at some point for the social care workforce around this time. _ social care workforce around this time. but — social care workforce around this time. but it— social care workforce around this time, but it wasn't something i was directly— time, but it wasn't something i was directly involved in. the time, but it wasn't something i was directly involved in.— directly involved in. the question i have is aimed _ directly involved in. the question i have is aimed around _ directly involved in. the question i have is aimed around this - directly involved in. the question i have is aimed around this period l have is aimed around this period between the end of 2020 and prior to 2021. my second question is this, given that staff movement was a primary contributor to infections, and there were concerns surrounding increase of incidents, why was there no mechanism to incentivise and compensate the workforce? if i no mechanism to incentivise and compensate the workforce? if i check the details. — compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there _ compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there were _ compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there were some - compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there were some new - the details, there were some new funding _ the details, there were some new funding announced on the 16th of january— funding announced on the 16th of january and the cst considered a proposal— january and the cst considered a proposal from dh about a fund to the social— proposal from dh about a fund to the social workforce and had approved it. it social workforce and had approved it it was _ social workforce and had approved it. it was precisely to support providers— it. it was precisely to support providers to restrict staff movement between _ providers to restrict staff movement between care homes and so on. those conversations — between care homes and so on. those conversations were happening and a fund was _ conversations were happening and a fund was announced, as far as i can tell, fund was announced, as far as i can tell. trut— fund was announced, as far as i can tell. but it — fund was announced, as far as i can tell, but it wasn't something i was directly— tell, but it wasn't something i was directly involved in, that was a chief— directly involved in, that was a chief secretary to the treasury. you a . ree that chief secretary to the treasury. you agree that it — chief secretary to the treasury. mt. agree that it wasn't in place before january 2021, despite the conversation taking place between the department and the chief secretary for the treasury question like yes. i secretary for the treasury question like es. ., �* , , like yes. i don't these remember these conversations. _ like yes. i don't these remember these conversations. it _ like yes. i don't these remember these conversations. it sounds . like yes. i don't these remember l these conversations. it sounds like those _ these conversations. it sounds like those conversations were predominately happening in and around — predominately happening in and around december, with an announcement injanuary. i think there _ announcement injanuary. i think there is— announcement injanuary. i think there is another point that is worth making _ there is another point that is worth making that, in the end, key system partners _ making that, in the end, key system partners no — making that, in the end, key system partners no longer supported it. that— partners no longer supported it. that is— partners no longer supported it. that is something that the secretary of state _ that is something that the secretary of state for health and his officials have also said in their evidence _ officials have also said in their evidence. it wasn'tjust officials have also said in their evidence. it wasn't just the funding. _ evidence. it wasn't just the funding, it was actually the mechanics of making it work were not supported _ mechanics of making it work were not supported by key system partners. one supported by key system partners. 0ne of— supported by key system partners. one of the — supported by key system partners. one of the reasons the regulations were not put in place by that point was the lack of financial package who stop would you agree with that? as i said, it is not something i was not directly — as i said, it is not something i was not directly involved in. i think there — not directly involved in. i think there were separate regulations that had been _ there were separate regulations that had been considered. again, it was not something i was actively involved _ not something i was actively involved in, so it is hard for me to comment— involved in, so it is hard for me to comment much beyond what i've said. thank— comment much beyond what i've said. thank you. _ comment much beyond what i've said. thank you, those are my questions. thank you, those are my questions. thank you. ms harris? i don't if you can see... around the pillar. sorry about the pillars. i pillar. sorry about the pillars. i ask questions on behalf of the covid brief families forjustice wales. my questions — brief families forjustice wales. my questions relate to the interactions with the _ questions relate to the interactions with the devolved administrations and in _ with the devolved administrations and in particular the welsh government. my first topic relates to the _ government. my first topic relates to the eat — government. my first topic relates to the eat out to help out scheme. you have _ to the eat out to help out scheme. you have explained in your evidence that the _ you have explained in your evidence that the devolved administrations were not— that the devolved administrations were not consulted. did the devolved administrations and specifically the rush government have the option of opting _ rush government have the option of opting out— rush government have the option of opting out —— did the welsh government have the option of opting out? i'm _ government have the option of opting out? i'm not— government have the option of opting out? i'm not sure if that was ever raised _ out? i'm not sure if that was ever raised with— out? i'm not sure if that was ever raised with me. i never received it from _ raised with me. i never received it from the _ raised with me. i never received it from the bush government to do that. it is from the bush government to do that. it is not _ from the bush government to do that. it is not something i recall the time — it is not something i recall the time if— it is not something i recall the time. if you have it, i it is not something i recall the time. if you have it, lam happy to have _ time. if you have it, lam happy to have a _ time. if you have it, lam happy to have a look— time. if you have it, lam happy to have a look at it. i don't recall them — have a look at it. i don't recall them having a formal request? is them having a formal request? is that them having a formal request? that not them having a formal request? is that not indicative of the issue question agree have a devolution settlement where the uk government is able to make policy matters that are reserved and devolved governments make policy on topics which are devolved. i governments make policy on topics which are devolved.— which are devolved. i would not exect which are devolved. i would not expect them — which are devolved. i would not expect them to _ which are devolved. i would not expect them to consult - which are devolved. i would not expect them to consult me - which are devolved. i would not expect them to consult me on | which are devolved. i would not - expect them to consult me on things that were _ expect them to consult me on things that were within their devolved competence. they wouldn't expect to consult _ competence. they wouldn't expect to consult the _ competence. they wouldn't expect to consult the uk government on those things. _ consult the uk government on those things, that is how a devolution settlement works. i don't recall them _ settlement works. i don't recall them formally saying to me all the treasury _ them formally saying to me all the treasury that they want to do not participate in the scheme. i don't think— participate in the scheme. i don't think they— participate in the scheme. i don't think they ever did that to stop again. — think they ever did that to stop again. i— think they ever did that to stop again, i don't recall them doing so. you have _ again, i don't recall them doing so. you have answered my second question on that topic, but did the bush government have the opportunity, in your view, to raise concerns if they had them? i your view, to raise concerns if they had them?— your view, to raise concerns if they had them? ~ , . , ., had them? i think they always have an opportunity _ had them? i think they always have an opportunity and _ had them? i think they always have an opportunity and they _ had them? i think they always have an opportunity and they frequentlyl an opportunity and they frequently do. an opportunity and they frequently do if— an opportunity and they frequently do if that— an opportunity and they frequently do. if that was something they wanted — do. if that was something they wanted to raise, i'm sure they would have raised — wanted to raise, i'm sure they would have raised it through the normal channels— have raised it through the normal channels that they have. my second ruestion channels that they have. my second question relates _ channels that they have. my second question relates to _ channels that they have. my second question relates to the _ channels that they have. my second question relates to the public- question relates to the public health decisions in the pandemic. i will put two particular paragraphs that are contained within the first witness statement of the first minister for wales, witness statement of the first ministerforwales, mr witness statement of the first ministerfor wales, mr mark drakeford's statement, exhibits 273, 747, page a0. drakeford's statement, exhibits 273, 747, page 40. it is important to set out to micro points of contacts that you set out within your witness statement. you say in your statement that the uk government provides most of the devolved administrations' funding with quantum to be determined by the barnett formula. you also say that the uk government provided the devolved administrations with an upfront funding guarantee injuly 2021, and that was further up lifted to afford greater inflexibility to respond to the pandemic. with those important points of context in mind and turning to mr drake's statement, at paragraph 136 of the statement, he says this, and i hope that it is on screen in front of you, on the 23rd of october 2020, their welsh fire break came into effect. had we had the confidence that the uk government would provide the money needed to support people, we would have implemented the lockdown earlier. it was hard for wales to take the initiative because that meant we had to take the decision without financial support provided ijy without financial support provided by the uk government. i'm not asking about the merits of the firebreak or otherwise, but do you agree with mr drakeford—lewis met reviews in respect of the lack of financial support? i respect of the lack of financial su ort? ., �* ~ respect of the lack of financial su . ort? ., �* ~ ., respect of the lack of financial su--ort? ., �* ~ ., ., support? i don't. we have a constitutional _ support? i don't. we have a constitutional settlement i support? i don't. we have a constitutional settlement in j support? i don't. we have a - constitutional settlement in the uk whereby— constitutional settlement in the uk whereby funding for devolved administrations comes either through the standard block grant, their own tax-raising — the standard block grant, their own tax—raising powers, but also the barnett — tax—raising powers, but also the barnett formula. so when the uk government decides that it is increasing spending in areas of england. — increasing spending in areas of england, that triggers what are called — england, that triggers what are called barnett consequential saw extra _ called barnett consequential saw extra funding for wales, scotland and northern ireland because they are funded at a larger level and in england — are funded at a larger level and in england. that is the constitutional settlement as it works. because of the nature — settlement as it works. because of the nature of the pandemic, we did something — the nature of the pandemic, we did something different, precisely to -ive something different, precisely to give devolved administrations extra financial— give devolved administrations extra financial flexibility and security. we gave — financial flexibility and security. we gave them money in advance of that treing — we gave them money in advance of that being triggered by a decision treing _ that being triggered by a decision being taken with regard to england, because _ being taken with regard to england, because we recognise that there would _ because we recognise that there would be — because we recognise that there would be some degree of that. it was uplifted _ would be some degree of that. it was uplifted three times, the second time _ uplifted three times, the second time of— uplifted three times, the second time of which, or the first time of which _ time of which, or the first time of which was — time of which, or the first time of which was in _ time of which, or the first time of which was in early october, just before — which was in early october, just before this period. it was a next £5 billion— before this period. it was a next £5 billion for— before this period. it was a next £5 billion for wales, which is a significant amount. they had total freedom _ significant amount. they had total freedom to spend that money as they wished _ freedom to spend that money as they wished. that money was available yon to their— wished. that money was available yon to their existing... again, they have _ to their existing... again, they have tax—raising powers and borrowing powers they can use if they want — borrowing powers they can use if they want to raise extra funding. we have provided in an unprecedented fashion. _ have provided in an unprecedented fashion, money in advance of it being _ fashion, money in advance of it being constitutionally triggered, to -ive being constitutionally triggered, to give them extra financial flexibility. | give them extra financial flexibility.— give them extra financial flexibili . ~ ., , ' flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october _ flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that _ flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that the _ flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that the first - flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that the first uplift l flexibility. i think it was the 9th i of october that the first uplift was implemented, is that right? yes. of october that the first uplift was implemented, is that right? yes, the u front implemented, is that right? yes, the upfront funding _ implemented, is that right? yes, the upfront funding guarantee _ implemented, is that right? yes, the upfront funding guarantee which - upfront funding guarantee which announced injuly, the first uplift was in _ announced injuly, the first uplift was in october, just before these decisions — was in october, just before these decisions. that funding would be the devolved _ decisions. that funding would be the devolved governments receiving funding — devolved governments receiving funding before it had been triggered through— funding before it had been triggered through something that the uk government had done. the constitutional settlement doesn't normally — constitutional settlement doesn't normally work like that, but it was the government saying, we want you to have _ the government saying, we want you to have extra money, we don't know if this— to have extra money, we don't know if this will— to have extra money, we don't know if this will ever come to pass, it may— if this will ever come to pass, it may well. — if this will ever come to pass, it may well, but we want you to have that extra — may well, but we want you to have that extra certainty now. we have never _ that extra certainty now. we have never done — that extra certainty now. we have never done that before, so we did it and uplifted three times, including 'ust and uplifted thre