funding _ why we put an enormous amount of funding in_ why we put an enormous amount of funding in place to support them. for social— funding in place to support them. for social care, that largely goes through— for social care, that largely goes through local authorities. so one of the earliest things we did was provide — the earliest things we did was provide billions of pounds extra for local authorities in honouring fenced — local authorities in honouring fenced grants so they would have extra _ fenced grants so they would have extra funds to spend on the things they needed to at the time. that was done, _ they needed to at the time. that was done, i_ they needed to at the time. that was done, i cant— they needed to at the time. that was done, i can't remember exact what date, _ done, i can't remember exact what date, but _ done, i can't remember exact what date, but relatively early on in the pandemic — date, but relatively early on in the pandemic. with regard to social care in particular. — pandemic. with regard to social care in particular, i don't have any strong — in particular, i don't have any strong recollection of the conversations, is not involved with them _ conversations, is not involved with them to— conversations, is not involved with them to the — conversations, is not involved with them to the best of my knowledge. you reference the advice from hmt ministers — you reference the advice from hmt ministers. the minister responsible for spending was the one that was going _ for spending was the one that was going back—and—forth with the department of health on the various options _ department of health on the various options that were available. in the department of health advice, i don't remember— department of health advice, i don't remember the exact date, they considered, but were not convinced it would _ considered, but were not convinced it would achieve its aim. it was already— it would achieve its aim. it was already irr— it would achieve its aim. it was already in the balance. there were conversations happening between the chief secretary in the department, there _ chief secretary in the department, there were not ones i was involved in. , , . there were not ones i was involved in. , , . notto in. did they cross your desk? not to my recollection _ in. did they cross your desk? not to my recollection and _ in. did they cross your desk? not to my recollection and having - in. did they cross your desk? not to i my recollection and having reviewed best i_ my recollection and having reviewed best i can _ my recollection and having reviewed best i can some of the evidence at the time _ best i can some of the evidence at the time of— best i can some of the evidence at the time of the treasury, these specific— the time of the treasury, these specific two proposals on compensation mechanisms and things were dealt— compensation mechanisms and things were dealt with by him. in the event, — were dealt with by him. in the event, a — were dealt with by him. in the event, a general fund was established at some point for the social— established at some point for the social care — established at some point for the social care workforce around this time. _ social care workforce around this time. but — social care workforce around this time. but it— social care workforce around this time, but it wasn't something i was directly— time, but it wasn't something i was directly involved in. the time, but it wasn't something i was directly involved in.— directly involved in. the question i have is aimed _ directly involved in. the question i have is aimed around _ directly involved in. the question i have is aimed around this - directly involved in. the question i have is aimed around this period l have is aimed around this period between the end of 2020 and prior to 2021. my second question is this, given that staff movement was a primary contributor to infections, and there were concerns surrounding increase of incidents, why was there no mechanism to incentivise and compensate the workforce? if i no mechanism to incentivise and compensate the workforce? if i check the details. — compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there _ compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there were _ compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there were some - compensate the workforce? if i check the details, there were some new - the details, there were some new funding _ the details, there were some new funding announced on the 16th of january— funding announced on the 16th of january and the cst considered a proposal— january and the cst considered a proposal from dh about a fund to the social— proposal from dh about a fund to the social workforce and had approved it. it social workforce and had approved it it was _ social workforce and had approved it. it was precisely to support providers— it. it was precisely to support providers to restrict staff movement between _ providers to restrict staff movement between care homes and so on. those conversations — between care homes and so on. those conversations were happening and a fund was _ conversations were happening and a fund was announced, as far as i can tell, fund was announced, as far as i can tell. trut— fund was announced, as far as i can tell. but it — fund was announced, as far as i can tell, but it wasn't something i was directly— tell, but it wasn't something i was directly involved in, that was a chief— directly involved in, that was a chief secretary to the treasury. you a . ree that chief secretary to the treasury. you agree that it — chief secretary to the treasury. mt. agree that it wasn't in place before january 2021, despite the conversation taking place between the department and the chief secretary for the treasury question like yes. i secretary for the treasury question like es. ., �* , , like yes. i don't these remember these conversations. _ like yes. i don't these remember these conversations. it _ like yes. i don't these remember these conversations. it sounds . like yes. i don't these remember l these conversations. it sounds like those _ these conversations. it sounds like those conversations were predominately happening in and around — predominately happening in and around december, with an announcement injanuary. i think there _ announcement injanuary. i think there is— announcement injanuary. i think there is another point that is worth making _ there is another point that is worth making that, in the end, key system partners _ making that, in the end, key system partners no — making that, in the end, key system partners no longer supported it. that— partners no longer supported it. that is— partners no longer supported it. that is something that the secretary of state _ that is something that the secretary of state for health and his officials have also said in their evidence _ officials have also said in their evidence. it wasn'tjust officials have also said in their evidence. it wasn't just the funding. _ evidence. it wasn't just the funding, it was actually the mechanics of making it work were not supported _ mechanics of making it work were not supported by key system partners. one supported by key system partners. 0ne of— supported by key system partners. one of the — supported by key system partners. one of the reasons the regulations were not put in place by that point was the lack of financial package who stop would you agree with that? as i said, it is not something i was not directly — as i said, it is not something i was not directly involved in. i think there — not directly involved in. i think there were separate regulations that had been _ there were separate regulations that had been considered. again, it was not something i was actively involved _ not something i was actively involved in, so it is hard for me to comment— involved in, so it is hard for me to comment much beyond what i've said. thank— comment much beyond what i've said. thank you. _ comment much beyond what i've said. thank you, those are my questions. thank you, those are my questions. thank you. ms harris? i don't if you can see... around the pillar. sorry about the pillars. i pillar. sorry about the pillars. i ask questions on behalf of the covid brief families forjustice wales. my questions — brief families forjustice wales. my questions relate to the interactions with the _ questions relate to the interactions with the devolved administrations and in _ with the devolved administrations and in particular the welsh government. my first topic relates to the _ government. my first topic relates to the eat — government. my first topic relates to the eat out to help out scheme. you have _ to the eat out to help out scheme. you have explained in your evidence that the _ you have explained in your evidence that the devolved administrations were not— that the devolved administrations were not consulted. did the devolved administrations and specifically the rush government have the option of opting _ rush government have the option of opting out— rush government have the option of opting out —— did the welsh government have the option of opting out? i'm _ government have the option of opting out? i'm not— government have the option of opting out? i'm not sure if that was ever raised _ out? i'm not sure if that was ever raised with— out? i'm not sure if that was ever raised with me. i never received it from _ raised with me. i never received it from the _ raised with me. i never received it from the bush government to do that. it is from the bush government to do that. it is not _ from the bush government to do that. it is not something i recall the time — it is not something i recall the time if— it is not something i recall the time. if you have it, i it is not something i recall the time. if you have it, lam happy to have _ time. if you have it, lam happy to have a _ time. if you have it, lam happy to have a look— time. if you have it, lam happy to have a look at it. i don't recall them — have a look at it. i don't recall them having a formal request? is them having a formal request? is that them having a formal request? that not them having a formal request? is that not indicative of the issue question agree have a devolution settlement where the uk government is able to make policy matters that are reserved and devolved governments make policy on topics which are devolved. i governments make policy on topics which are devolved.— which are devolved. i would not exect which are devolved. i would not expect them — which are devolved. i would not expect them to _ which are devolved. i would not expect them to consult - which are devolved. i would not expect them to consult me - which are devolved. i would not expect them to consult me on | which are devolved. i would not - expect them to consult me on things that were _ expect them to consult me on things that were within their devolved competence. they wouldn't expect to consult _ competence. they wouldn't expect to consult the _ competence. they wouldn't expect to consult the uk government on those things. _ consult the uk government on those things, that is how a devolution settlement works. i don't recall them _ settlement works. i don't recall them formally saying to me all the treasury _ them formally saying to me all the treasury that they want to do not participate in the scheme. i don't think— participate in the scheme. i don't think they— participate in the scheme. i don't think they ever did that to stop again. — think they ever did that to stop again. i— think they ever did that to stop again, i don't recall them doing so. you have _ again, i don't recall them doing so. you have answered my second question on that topic, but did the bush government have the opportunity, in your view, to raise concerns if they had them? i your view, to raise concerns if they had them?— your view, to raise concerns if they had them? ~ , . , ., had them? i think they always have an opportunity _ had them? i think they always have an opportunity and _ had them? i think they always have an opportunity and they _ had them? i think they always have an opportunity and they frequentlyl an opportunity and they frequently do. an opportunity and they frequently do if— an opportunity and they frequently do if that— an opportunity and they frequently do. if that was something they wanted — do. if that was something they wanted to raise, i'm sure they would have raised — wanted to raise, i'm sure they would have raised it through the normal channels— have raised it through the normal channels that they have. my second ruestion channels that they have. my second question relates _ channels that they have. my second question relates to _ channels that they have. my second question relates to the _ channels that they have. my second question relates to the public- question relates to the public health decisions in the pandemic. i will put two particular paragraphs that are contained within the first witness statement of the first minister for wales, witness statement of the first ministerforwales, mr witness statement of the first ministerfor wales, mr mark drakeford's statement, exhibits 273, 747, page a0. drakeford's statement, exhibits 273, 747, page 40. it is important to set out to micro points of contacts that you set out within your witness statement. you say in your statement that the uk government provides most of the devolved administrations' funding with quantum to be determined by the barnett formula. you also say that the uk government provided the devolved administrations with an upfront funding guarantee injuly 2021, and that was further up lifted to afford greater inflexibility to respond to the pandemic. with those important points of context in mind and turning to mr drake's statement, at paragraph 136 of the statement, he says this, and i hope that it is on screen in front of you, on the 23rd of october 2020, their welsh fire break came into effect. had we had the confidence that the uk government would provide the money needed to support people, we would have implemented the lockdown earlier. it was hard for wales to take the initiative because that meant we had to take the decision without financial support provided ijy without financial support provided by the uk government. i'm not asking about the merits of the firebreak or otherwise, but do you agree with mr drakeford—lewis met reviews in respect of the lack of financial support? i respect of the lack of financial su ort? ., �* ~ respect of the lack of financial su . ort? ., �* ~ ., respect of the lack of financial su--ort? ., �* ~ ., ., support? i don't. we have a constitutional _ support? i don't. we have a constitutional settlement i support? i don't. we have a constitutional settlement in j support? i don't. we have a - constitutional settlement in the uk whereby— constitutional settlement in the uk whereby funding for devolved administrations comes either through the standard block grant, their own tax-raising — the standard block grant, their own tax—raising powers, but also the barnett — tax—raising powers, but also the barnett formula. so when the uk government decides that it is increasing spending in areas of england. — increasing spending in areas of england, that triggers what are called — england, that triggers what are called barnett consequential saw extra _ called barnett consequential saw extra funding for wales, scotland and northern ireland because they are funded at a larger level and in england — are funded at a larger level and in england. that is the constitutional settlement as it works. because of the nature — settlement as it works. because of the nature of the pandemic, we did something — the nature of the pandemic, we did something different, precisely to -ive something different, precisely to give devolved administrations extra financial— give devolved administrations extra financial flexibility and security. we gave — financial flexibility and security. we gave them money in advance of that treing — we gave them money in advance of that being triggered by a decision treing _ that being triggered by a decision being taken with regard to england, because _ being taken with regard to england, because we recognise that there would _ because we recognise that there would be — because we recognise that there would be some degree of that. it was uplifted _ would be some degree of that. it was uplifted three times, the second time _ uplifted three times, the second time of— uplifted three times, the second time of which, or the first time of which _ time of which, or the first time of which was — time of which, or the first time of which was in _ time of which, or the first time of which was in early october, just before — which was in early october, just before this period. it was a next £5 billion— before this period. it was a next £5 billion for— before this period. it was a next £5 billion for wales, which is a significant amount. they had total freedom _ significant amount. they had total freedom to spend that money as they wished _ freedom to spend that money as they wished. that money was available yon to their— wished. that money was available yon to their existing... again, they have _ to their existing... again, they have tax—raising powers and borrowing powers they can use if they want — borrowing powers they can use if they want to raise extra funding. we have provided in an unprecedented fashion. _ have provided in an unprecedented fashion, money in advance of it being _ fashion, money in advance of it being constitutionally triggered, to -ive being constitutionally triggered, to give them extra financial flexibility. | give them extra financial flexibility.— give them extra financial flexibili . ~ ., , ' flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october _ flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that _ flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that the _ flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that the first - flexibility. i think it was the 9th of october that the first uplift l flexibility. i think it was the 9th i of october that the first uplift was implemented, is that right? yes. of october that the first uplift was implemented, is that right? yes, the u front implemented, is that right? yes, the upfront funding _ implemented, is that right? yes, the upfront funding guarantee _ implemented, is that right? yes, the upfront funding guarantee which - upfront funding guarantee which announced injuly, the first uplift was in _ announced injuly, the first uplift was in october, just before these decisions — was in october, just before these decisions. that funding would be the devolved _ decisions. that funding would be the devolved governments receiving funding — devolved governments receiving funding before it had been triggered through— funding before it had been triggered through something that the uk government had done. the constitutional settlement doesn't normally — constitutional settlement doesn't normally work like that, but it was the government saying, we want you to have _ the government saying, we want you to have extra money, we don't know if this— to have extra money, we don't know if this will— to have extra money, we don't know if this will ever come to pass, it may— if this will ever come to pass, it may well. — if this will ever come to pass, it may well, but we want you to have that extra — may well, but we want you to have that extra certainty now. we have never _ that extra certainty now. we have never done — that extra certainty now. we have never done that before, so we did it and uplifted three times, including 'ust and uplifted three times, including just before this particular moment. you sit _ just before this particular moment. you sit in _ just before this particular moment. you sit in your evidence that wales and all of the devolved administrations have their own tax—raising powers in addition to any of the additional funding that would have been made available by the uk government. yes. would have been made available by the uk government.— would have been made available by the uk government. yes, i was giving a next relation — the uk government. yes, i was giving a next relation for _ the uk government. yes, i was giving a next relation for generally _ the uk government. yes, i was giving a next relation for generally of- the uk government. yes, i was giving a next relation for generally of how i a next relation for generally of how the funding settlements work, and borrowing — the funding settlements work, and borrowing powers as well. there was a primer— borrowing powers as well. there was a primer in— borrowing powers as well. there was a primer in there about how to funding— a primer in there about how to funding works in general. thank you. movin: on funding works in general. thank you. moving on in — funding works in general. thank you. moving on in a _ funding works in general. thank you. moving on in a similar— funding works in general. thank you. moving on in a similar vein. - funding works in general. thank you. moving on in a similar vein. mr- moving on in a similar vein. mr drake's goes on at paragraph 138 of his statement to say that october 2020 was a challenging month for intergovernmental relations, and then paragraph 139, he concludes as follows, the chancellor of the exchequer refused to fund the consequences of a decision taken in wales. that decision was, in my view, one of the most misguided decisions of the whole pandemic. it demonstrated that the four nations of the uk were to be treated differently by hm treasury. it was acting as a treasury for england, not a treasury for the uk. this was vividly evidenced by funds to support a firebreak in england were provided by the treasury. the same question, do you agree with mr draco's view? is he being fair? == draco's view? is he being fair? -- mr record's _ draco's view? is he being fair? —— mr record's views will stop. what the uk _ mr record's views will stop. what the uk government demonstrated through— the uk government demonstrated through the pandemic was that there was incredible benefit to the people in wales— was incredible benefit to the people in wales and scotland and northern ireland _ in wales and scotland and northern ireland of— in wales and scotland and northern ireland of being part of the united kingdom — ireland of being part of the united kingdom because the uk as an entity has the _ kingdom because the uk as an entity has the balance sheet strength to adduce _ has the balance sheet strength to adduce things like the furlough scheme. — adduce things like the furlough scheme, which benefited people in the devolved administrations greatly~ _ the devolved administrations greatly. that was a uk government delivering _ greatly. that was a uk government delivering four people across the uk, delivering four people across the uk. at _ delivering four people across the uk, at money was available for people — uk, at money was available for people in— uk, at money was available for people in wales in advance of need, and it— people in wales in advance of need, and it was— people in wales in advance of need, and it was not ring—fenced, it was up and it was not ring—fenced, it was up to— and it was not ring—fenced, it was up to the — and it was not ring—fenced, it was up to the most government how to spend _ up to the most government how to spend that — up to the most government how to spend that money.— up to the most government how to spend that money. thank you. those are my questions. _ spend that money. thank you. those are my questions. thank— spend that money. thank you. those are my questions. thank you, - spend that money. thank you. those are my questions. thank you, my - are my questions. thank you, my lady. are my questions. thank you, my lad . ., ~ are my questions. thank you, my lad . . ~ are my questions. thank you, my lad. . ~, ~. lady. thank you. ms mitchell. over there. prime minister, i appear on behalf of the scottish covid believed. you are balancing economic consequences of a pandemic with decisions that have to be taken on health by those who have to make those decisions. health being a devolved matter, the first minister of scotland was tasked with that responsibility, and the funding of that matter rested with the uk government. can i have the inquiry up, please? this is a letter from the inquiry up, please? this is a letterfrom nicola sturgeon to boris johnson. page one, just for the date, we get it on the 23rd of september 2020. date, we get it on the 23rd of september2020. can date, we get it on the 23rd of september 2020. can we go to the top of page two? i appreciate you won't have received this letter directly unless it was forwarded on to you, but what this says on that date, the 23rd of september, is that if it is not possible to reach a four nations agreement with associated support, what arrangement can be put in place to ensure that devolved administrations are not constrained in making what we judged to administrations are not constrained in making what wejudged to be essential public health decisions, because we lack the financial flexibility to provide support to affected sectors and individuals? you have touched on that issue with my loaded friend who has asked you questions already. what you made aware by mrjohnson or mr gove as to the concerns that the first minister had at that time coaching like i can't recall this specific letter, no. you might not recall the specific letter, but what you made aware of concerns either by mr johnson or mr gove about that particular concern of the first minister?— particular concern of the first minister? ., ., ,, . ., , minister? not in a specific sense. in minister? not in a specific sense. in general. _ minister? not in a specific sense. in general, there _ minister? not in a specific sense. in general, there were _ minister? not in a specific sense. i in general, there were conversations throughout— in general, there were conversations throughout the pandemic about points of difference with the das, but i can't _ of difference with the das, but i can't ever— of difference with the das, but i can't ever any specificity around those — can't ever any specificity around those. �* ~' ., , ., those. i'm keen to explore the timescales _ those. i'm keen to explore the timescales you _ those. i'm keen to explore the timescales you have _ those. i'm keen to explore the | timescales you have identified. those. i'm keen to explore the - timescales you have identified. you mentioned july 2020, and i'm wondering ifjuly 2020 is the correct time? both mr draco and ms sturgeon were expressing concerns much later than that, that the issue hadn't been raised and dealt with. the reason i mentioned july was the first time _ the reason i mentioned july was the first time that the upfront funding guarantee was put in place. it was as early— guarantee was put in place. it was as early as — guarantee was put in place. it was as early asjuly guarantee was put in place. it was as early as july before these conversations that the uk government had decided to do something unprecedented, which was to provide extra funding in advance of that funding — extra funding in advance of that funding being triggered constitutionally. it was uplifted three _ constitutionally. it was uplifted three times, the first of which was in october — three times, the first of which was in october. it three times, the first of which was in october-— in october. it would appear... shortly after _ in october. it would appear... shortly after this _ in october. it would appear... shortly after this letter, - in october. it would appear... shortly after this letter, by i in october. it would appear... | shortly after this letter, by the look— shortly after this letter, by the look of— shortly after this letter, by the look of things. it shortly after this letter, by the look of things.— shortly after this letter, by the look of things. it would appear, notwithstanding _ look of things. it would appear, notwithstanding what _ look of things. it would appear, notwithstanding what you've i look of things. it would appear, l notwithstanding what you've told look of things. it would appear, - notwithstanding what you've told us about their still being concerns in relation to the scottish government and welsh government in relate to this particular issue, what i'm saying is that, after the arrangements have been put in place that had been made, were you aware of these further particular concerns in relation to the quandary that scotland and wales found themselves in, with questions of making decisions on public health that might require additional public funding, for example, funding that might be different...?i funding, for example, funding that might be different. . . ?_ funding, for example, funding that might be different. . . ? i don't agree with the sequencing. _ might be different. . . ? i don't agree with the sequencing. i _ might be different. . . ? i don't agree with the sequencing. i think - might be different. . . ? i don't agree with the sequencing. i think that i with the sequencing. i think that date. _ with the sequencing. i think that date. if— with the sequencing. i think that date, if you flick back to the first page _ date, if you flick back to the first page of— date, if you flick back to the first page of the letter,... that date, if you flick back to the first page of the letter, . . ._ date, if you flick back to the first page of the letter, . .. page of the letter,... that can be laced page of the letter,... that can be placed upon _ page of the letter,... that can be placed upon the _ page of the letter,... that can be placed upon the screen. - page of the letter,... that can be placed upon the screen. that - page of the letter,... that can be placed upon the screen. that was page of the letter,... that can be i placed upon the screen. that was on the 23rd of september. _ placed upon the screen. that was on the 23rd of september. two - placed upon the screen. that was on the 23rd of september. two weeks l the 23rd of september. two weeks after that. — the 23rd of september. two weeks after that, there was an uplift. again. — after that, there was an uplift. again. i— after that, there was an uplift. again, i wasn't familiar with this again, iwasn't familiar with this particular— again, i wasn't familiar with this particular letter. subsequent to that. _ particular letter. subsequent to that. if— particular letter. subsequent to that, if there was a concern raised, there _ that, if there was a concern raised, there was— that, if there was a concern raised, there was action in early october to increase _ there was action in early october to increase the funding to the scottish government beyond its constitutional amount— government beyond its constitutional amount that would be due. i make the same _ amount that would be due. i make the same point _ amount that would be due. i make the same point that i made previously, we have _ same point that i made previously, we have an — same point that i made previously, we have an existing constitutional settlement. which obviously reacted in an unprecedented way. i�*m settlement. which obviously reacted in an unprecedented way.— in an unprecedented way. i'm not lookin: in an unprecedented way. i'm not looking for— in an unprecedented way. i'm not looking for that _ in an unprecedented way. i'm not looking for that analysis. - in an unprecedented way. i'm not looking for that analysis. what i in an unprecedented way. i'm not| looking for that analysis. what i'm looking for that analysis. what i'm looking for that analysis. what i'm looking for is specifically to ascertain whether or not is an absence of the barnett formula, so an absence of reacting to what was happening in the rest of the uk and uplifting the amount even in advance, i'm asking separately about the issue... if i can give an example. i don't need to this to be put up, but for the purposes of the inquiry, number235, 213, the statement of nicola sturgeon. in her written evidence to this inquiry, she states that the scottish government had pressed for a more generous approach to financial support for those required to self—isolate. in particular, the scottish government analysis shows that the impact of requiring self isolation was unequal. people able to work from home were unlikely to lose income as a result of complying with self isolation, but people who were not able to work from home were more likely to face a loss of income if they self isolated and did not attend the workforce. firstly, i would like to ask you about this, what conversations did you have with the scottish government in relation to whether a more generous approach to whether a more generous approach to financial support for those who could not work from home but were required to self—isolate? you could not work from home but were required to self-isolate?— required to self-isolate? you said ou required to self-isolate? you said you wanted _ required to self-isolate? you said you wanted to _ required to self-isolate? you said you wanted to think— required to self-isolate? you said you wanted to think about - required to self-isolate? you said you wanted to think about this - you wanted to think about this relationship absent of the barnett formula — relationship absent of the barnett formula i— relationship absent of the barnett formula. i genuinely think that is hard _ formula. i genuinely think that is hard to— formula. i genuinely think that is hard to do. — formula. i genuinely think that is hard to do, the barnett formula is the way— hard to do, the barnett formula is the way that the uk government spending — the way that the uk government spending in reserved areas translates into devolved areas and translate _ translates into devolved areas and translate into incremental spending in the _ translate into incremental spending in the devolved administrations. it is have _ in the devolved administrations. it is have to — in the devolved administrations. it is have to abstract away from that, it is the _ is have to abstract away from that, it is the basis of our constitutional financial settlement. we operated it in a way that was more _ we operated it in a way that was more generous than it normally works in order— more generous than it normally works in order to _ more generous than it normally works in order to provide extra funding in advance _ in order to provide extra funding in advance to— in order to provide extra funding in advance to the devolved administrations to use as they wanted. — administrations to use as they wanted, on some of their own ability, — wanted, on some of their own ability, if— wanted, on some of their own ability, if they wanted, to raise more _ ability, if they wanted, to raise more money or borrow money. they have _ more money or borrow money. they have flexible that were available to them _ have flexible that were available to them to _ have flexible that were available to them to do that. in the scottish government's case, on more than one occasion. — government's case, on more than one occasion. with _ government's case, on more than one occasion, with the barnett formula consequence was that they received from the _ consequence was that they received from the uk government, they buy able to— from the uk government, they buy able to implement policies that were more generous than had been implemented in england because they were making different choices and that money enabled them to do that. it is important, you can't abstract away— it is important, you can't abstract away from — it is important, you can't abstract away from it. that is the basis of how it _ away from it. that is the basis of how it works. away from it. that is the basis of how it works-— away from it. that is the basis of how it works. that is the basis of how it works. that is the basis of how it works. that is the basis of how it works. — how it works. that is the basis of how it works, but _ how it works. that is the basis of how it works, but the _ how it works. that is the basis of how it works, but the difficulty . how it works. that is the basis of l how it works, but the difficulty was that in a pandemic, the first minister was in charge of health and was asking the prime minister what assistance they can get, rather than waiting for the rest of the uk... 17 waiting for the rest of the uk... ? my point was that the upfront guarantee was put in place so they didn't— guarantee was put in place so they didn't have — guarantee was put in place so they didn't have to wait. the whole point about _ didn't have to wait. the whole point about it _ didn't have to wait. the whole point about it was — didn't have to wait. the whole point about it was it was funded in advance _ about it was it was funded in advance of that funding being triggered by something consequent down the _ triggered by something consequent down the line. it is because of apathy— down the line. it is because of apathy upfront was put in place. my apathy upfront was put in place. question apathy upfront was put in place. m question was, what apathy upfront was put in place. m1: question was, what conversations apathy upfront was put in place. m1 question was, what conversations did did you have with the scottish government about the unequal labour impact of requiring self isolation for those who could work from home and those who couldn't? i for those who could work from home and those who couldn't?— and those who couldn't? i don't recall any _ and those who couldn't? i don't recall any specific _ and those who couldn't? i don'tl recall any specific conversations. most— recall any specific conversations. most of— recall any specific conversations. most of the financial engagement .oes most of the financial engagement goes through the chief secretary to the treasury. that happened regularly through the pandemic. that would _ regularly through the pandemic. that would be _ regularly through the pandemic. that would be the forum for those discussions.— would be the forum for those discussions. ~ , ., ., ., ., discussions. were you aware that such analysis _ discussions. were you aware that such analysis was _ discussions. were you aware that such analysis was done? - discussions. were you aware that such analysis was done? more i such analysis was done? more generally. _ such analysis was done? more generally. the _ such analysis was done? more generally, the uk _ such analysis was done? morej generally, the uk government such analysis was done? more generally, the uk government did in permit— generally, the uk government did in permit a _ generally, the uk government did in permit a scheme for self isolation payments— permit a scheme for self isolation payments and in the early part of the pandemic, i'll introduce a scheme — the pandemic, i'll introduce a scheme to support those who were self—employed. i�*m scheme to support those who were self-employed— scheme to support those who were self-employed. i'm asking about the secific self-employed. i'm asking about the specific issue — self-employed. i'm asking about the specific issue of _ self-employed. i'm asking about the specific issue of those _ self-employed. i'm asking about the specific issue of those who _ self-employed. i'm asking about the specific issue of those who could - specific issue of those who could work from home and self isolating, and those who couldn't. were you aware of that inequality and were you aware of the problem? i aware of that inequality and were you aware of the problem? i think it is self-evident _ you aware of the problem? i think it is self-evident that _ you aware of the problem? i think it is self-evident that there _ you aware of the problem? i think it is self-evident that there would - you aware of the problem? i think it is self-evident that there would be l is self—evident that there would be an inequality between those things. by an inequality between those things. by definition, if you can work from home. _ by definition, if you can work from home, obviously you would be less impacted _ home, obviously you would be less impacted by self isolation requirements.— impacted by self isolation requirements. impacted by self isolation reauirements. ~ . , ., impacted by self isolation reauirements. ~ ., , ., ., requirements. was anything done to e i ualise requirements. was anything done to equalise that — requirements. was anything done to equalise that inequality? _ requirements. was anything done to equalise that inequality? we - equalise that inequality? we introduced _ equalise that inequality? we introduced extra payments for people who were _ introduced extra payments for people who were self isolating, and we obviously — who were self isolating, and we obviously introduced considerable economic— obviously introduced considerable economic support more generally for people's— economic support more generally for people'sjobs and economic support more generally for people's jobs and livelihoods, economic support more generally for people'sjobs and livelihoods, which i people'sjobs and livelihoods, which i touched _ people'sjobs and livelihoods, which i touched on earlier, which is focused _ i touched on earlier, which is focused on the most vulnerable. it was demonstrated to achieve that aim _ was demonstrated to achieve that aim. ., ., .., was demonstrated to achieve that aim. ., ., .. ., aim. you have indicated that he reflected on _ aim. you have indicated that he reflected on your _ aim. you have indicated that he reflected on your time - aim. you have indicated that he reflected on your time as - aim. you have indicated that he - reflected on your time as chancellor and spoke of lessons learned and reflections. we know that prior to this pandemic, we have not heard any evidence of prior economic pandemic planning, despite it being highest risk. what provisions should be put in place to allow the devolved administrations to access additional funding, to allow schemes such as furlough and those we have talked about, to be put in place when they are required in those parts of the uk but not required in england? ie when the barnett formula isn't triggered? when the barnett formula isn't trii iered? . when the barnett formula isn't triggered?— triggered? that speaks to our overall constitutional - triggered? that speaks to our i overall constitutional devolution settlement. it is quite hard to completely unpick that. it may speak to a need _ completely unpick that. it may speak to a need to do more things on a uk wide basis _ to a need to do more things on a uk wide basis next time around. the upfront— wide basis next time around. the upfront system worked fairly well and providing that funding in advance _ and providing that funding in advance to devolved administrations. broadly. _ advance to devolved administrations. broadly, overthe advance to devolved administrations. broadly, over the course of the pandemic. _ broadly, over the course of the pandemic, most things happened at similar— pandemic, most things happened at similar places at similar times. if you step — similar places at similar times. if you step back from all the debate and discussion, broadly that is what happened. — and discussion, broadly that is what happened, is my general recollection of the _ happened, is my general recollection of the time — happened, is my general recollection of the time. ., ., , ., happened, is my general recollection of the time-— of the time. therefore, do you think that broadly — of the time. therefore, do you think that broadly there _ of the time. therefore, do you think that broadly there isn't _ of the time. therefore, do you think that broadly there isn't a _ of the time. therefore, do you think that broadly there isn't a need - of the time. therefore, do you think that broadly there isn't a need to i that broadly there isn't a need to change anything?— change anything? obviously, the iniui change anything? obviously, the inquiry will _ change anything? obviously, the inquiry will no — change anything? obviously, the inquiry will no doubt _ change anything? obviously, the inquiry will no doubt have - change anything? obviously, the | inquiry will no doubt have helpful suggestions. but from an economic support— suggestions. but from an economic support perspective, which is my role at _ support perspective, which is my role at the — support perspective, which is my role at the time, i'm confident that the economic support that be put in place _ the economic support that be put in place achieved its objectives of protecting livelihoods and businesses and disproportionately benefited the most vulnerable across the united kingdom and that is something that i'm proud of and i'm -lad something that i'm proud of and i'm glad it— something that i'm proud of and i'm glad it worked. obviously, there will be _ glad it worked. obviously, there will be helpful suggestions of how to improve it in future. but will be helpful suggestions of how to improve it in future.— to improve it in future. but you don't have _ to improve it in future. but you don't have any _ to improve it in future. but you don't have any helpful - to improve it in future. but you | don't have any helpful solutions to improve it in future. but you - don't have any helpful solutions you can give the inquiry? this don't have any helpful solutions you can give the inquiry?— can give the inquiry? this module is not concerned _ can give the inquiry? this module is not concerned with _ can give the inquiry? this module is not concerned with the _ can give the inquiry? this module is not concerned with the economic i not concerned with the economic decisions — not concerned with the economic decisions that i made, and no doubt iwill— decisions that i made, and no doubt i will be _ decisions that i made, and no doubt i will be back to give extensive evidence — i will be back to give extensive evidence on all of those. this is about— evidence on all of those. this is about decision—making structures and processes _ about decision—making structures and processes. with regard to that, the chief— processes. with regard to that, the chief secretary to the treasury is the one — chief secretary to the treasury is the one that maintains the quadrilateral framework of finance ministers — quadrilateral framework of finance ministers. that has all was been the case _ ministers. that has all was been the case it— ministers. that has all was been the case it is— ministers. that has all was been the case. it is generally worked well. the upfront funding was a good innovation and i'm glad we put it in place _ innovation and i'm glad we put it in place was _ innovation and i'm glad we put it in place was i — innovation and i'm glad we put it in place was i will leave questions for next time — place was i will leave questions for next time. my place was i will leave questions for next time. p . , ., place was i will leave questions for nexttime. g . , ., next time. my lady, and obliged. i ask questions _ next time. my lady, and obliged. i ask questions on _ next time. my lady, and obliged. i ask questions on behalf - next time. my lady, and obliged. i ask questions on behalf of - next time. my lady, and obliged. i ask questions on behalf of a - i ask questions on behalf of a number of children's rights organisations. i turn to the topic of the campaign for free meals for poorer schoolchildren during the summer holidays. lee kane, the former downing street director of communications, told the inquiry that the government's initial resistance in 2020 two marcus rashford's campaign for free meals for poorer schoolchildren in summer holidays was a huge blunder, and that hungry children were not the right place to start shopping public spending restraint form a moral or political standpoint. given the government's subsequent u—turn on this issue, do you agree that lee kane was right about that? i can't trim over the _ kane was right about that? i can't trim over the exact _ kane was right about that? i can't i trim over the exact decision-making trim over the exact decision—making around _ trim over the exact decision—making around that— trim over the exact decision—making around that in any great detail, other— around that in any great detail, other than— around that in any great detail, other than the government spent half £1 other than the government spent half fl billion _ other than the government spent half fl billion in _ other than the government spent half £1 billion in the course of the pandemic, funding free school meals. i put pandemic, funding free school meals. i put in _ pandemic, funding free school meals. i put in place as chancellor a permanent uplift in the provision for vulnerable children called the holiday— for vulnerable children called the holiday activity and food programme, which _ holiday activity and food programme, which responded considerably to provide — which responded considerably to provide notjust food but enriching activities _ provide notjust food but enriching activities for children during holiday— activities for children during holiday times, obviously focused on the most _ holiday times, obviously focused on the most disadvantaged children. that is— the most disadvantaged children. that is now a permanent feature post pandemic— that is now a permanent feature post pandemic of— that is now a permanent feature post pandemic of the support in place for vulnerable _ pandemic of the support in place for vulnerable children. again, i go back— vulnerable children. again, i go back to — vulnerable children. again, i go back to what i said previously about our overall— back to what i said previously about our overall approach during the pandemic, very much being focused on those _ pandemic, very much being focused on those on _ pandemic, very much being focused on those on the _ pandemic, very much being focused on those on the lowest incomes and, as a result. _ those on the lowest incomes and, as a result, they rightly received is proportionately more help and benefited the most. are you saying somebody else in government was initially opposed to funding this? i government was initially opposed to funding this?— funding this? i can't recall the individual _ funding this? i can't recall the individual discussions. - funding this? i can't recall the individual discussions. what l funding this? i can't recall the i individual discussions. what was our view individual discussions. what was your view on _ individual discussions. what was your view on 2020 _ individual discussions. what was your view on 2020 on _ individual discussions. what was your view on 2020 on this - individual discussions. what was i your view on 2020 on this matter? individual discussions. what was - your view on 2020 on this matter? i generally can't remember the exact discussions. in the end we did ultimately fund it. there was a discussion— ultimately fund it. there was a discussion about term time and out of term _ discussion about term time and out of term time. ultimately the government did fund quite considerably free school meals programme and replaced it or added to it with— programme and replaced it or added to it with something more permanent. the very— to it with something more permanent. the very last _ to it with something more permanent. the very last topic he asked you about raised a further meeting on the same topic a year later injune 2021. i didn't understand your answer to his question but can i ask you this,

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