chaos by quitting over the migration plans, robertjenrick, is here first for his first interview since going. how will those in government answer that charge? michael gove, the housing secretaryjoins us too. looking on for labour, promising its ready to serve — liz kendall — who looks after the party's plans for work and pensions. and war rages, notjust on in the middle east, but on the edge of our continent — we've been back to ukraine to speak to the first lady, olena zelenska — is western backing for the country on the wane? translation: we cannot get tired of the situation. — translation: we cannot get tired of the situation, because _ translation: we cannot get tired of the situation, because otherwise - translation: we cannot get tired of the situation, because otherwise we | the situation, because otherwise we will die. and if the world gets tired, they will simply let as die. morning, morning, to dissect and debate all of that, bill browder — one of vladimir putin's long—time critics and campaigner. scoop—getter pippa crerar, the guardian's political editor, and the former deputy prime minister, damian green. we have robertjenrick and michael govein we have robertjenrick and michael gove in the studio. have you had a chat since robert quit? michael dare i say you have some experience in surprising your colleagues. robert and i have been discussing the new national framework, robert and i have been discussing the new nationalframework, making sure we have the right homes in the right places. robert, have you had a chat with your colleagues, what has it been like since you walked out? it is a new experience for me but it was an— it is a new experience for me but it was an important point of principle, which _ was an important point of principle, which i'm _ was an important point of principle, which i'm sure we are about to discuss — which i'm sure we are about to discuss. ., ~ , ., ,., which i'm sure we are about to discuss. ., ~ , ., ., ., let's see what's making the news — the observer leads on labour's criticism of israel over their attacks on gaza. the sunday times says since covid britain's social divide's is akin to the victorian era. the sunday telegraph says a group of conservative lawyers say sunak�*s rwanda plans aren't fit for purpose. and the prime minister's told the sunday express if labour vote against the rwanda proposals, "they are not serious about stopping the boats." the sunday mirror reports on tv star's helen flanagan's love life — and they're urging rishi sunak to "tell the truth" at covid inquiry tomorrow. lots of news around and lots to talk about with our panel. pippa, you have been watching tory turmoil for years, how bad do you think things are? , , years, how bad do you think things are? ,,,,,,_ years, how bad do you think things are? , ., , are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst — are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst weeks. _ are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst weeks. he - are? this is probably one of rishi sunak's worst weeks. he loses i are? this is probably one of rishi| sunak's worst weeks. he loses his immigration minister, then the public is reminded of the party gate scandal and of the difficulties we went through during covid by boris johnson's appearance at the covid inquiry. rishi sunak has his own appearance there on monday as well. and finally he has on tuesday, this battle within his party to get emergency legislation through the commons. his party is split, he has the spector of theresa may failing to get her flagship legislation through, which ultimately brought about her downfall and he and the people around him will be very much hoping there is not a repeat of that. ., , ., , , ., that. one of the people they are worried about _ that. one of the people they are worried about is _ that. one of the people they are worried about is you, _ that. one of the people they are worried about is you, damian i that. one of the people they are - worried about is you, damian green. you see yourself as one of the moderates in the party. why are you not sure rishi sunak is doing the right thing on migration? irate not sure rishi sunak is doing the right thing on migration? we insist one of the basic _ right thing on migration? we insist one of the basic tenets _ right thing on migration? we insist one of the basic tenets of - one of the basic tenets of conservative governments should stick to _ conservative governments should stick to it — conservative governments should stick to it is the rule of law and meeting — stick to it is the rule of law and meeting our international obligations. what we are spending this weekend reassuring ourselves, if we can, _ this weekend reassuring ourselves, if we can, but the legislation proposed actually stays within the law. he _ proposed actually stays within the law. �* , , , ., proposed actually stays within the law. ~ , , , ., , ., proposed actually stays within the law. ., ., law. as things stand, you are not convinced — law. as things stand, you are not convinced the _ law. as things stand, you are not convinced the prime _ law. as things stand, you are not convinced the prime minister's i law. as things stand, you are not i convinced the prime minister's plan follows the rule of law? irate convinced the prime minister's plan follows the rule of law?— follows the rule of law? we are auoin to follows the rule of law? we are going to meet _ follows the rule of law? we are going to meet tomorrow, - follows the rule of law? we are going to meet tomorrow, so i follows the rule of law? we are| going to meet tomorrow, so we follows the rule of law? we are - going to meet tomorrow, so we will take the _ going to meet tomorrow, so we will take the decision then. he has said, he has _ take the decision then. he has said, he has been — take the decision then. he has said, he has been quite candid about this in public, _ he has been quite candid about this in public, it— he has been quite candid about this in public, it gets within an inch of things— in public, it gets within an inch of things we — in public, it gets within an inch of things we might find acceptable and we want _ things we might find acceptable and we want that to be true. we things we might find acceptable and we want that to be true.— we want that to be true. we are checkin: we want that to be true. we are checking it- _ we want that to be true. we are checking it. the _ we want that to be true. we are checking it. the stakes - we want that to be true. we are checking it. the stakes are very | checking it. the stakes are very high and the stakes are high in ukraine. we have been back to kyiv, but briefly, how serious do you think things are in kyiv at the moment?— think things are in kyiv at the moment? , , , ., moment? basically they are within weeks of running _ moment? basically they are within weeks of running out _ moment? basically they are within weeks of running out of _ moment? basically they are within i weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, — weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as _ weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as you _ weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as you saw— weeks of running out of ammunition. the russians, as you saw and - the russians, as you saw and president _ the russians, as you saw and president putin— the russians, as you saw and president putin and _ the russians, as you saw and president putin and kim - the russians, as you saw and i president putin and kim jong—un getting _ president putin and kim jong—un getting a — president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole _ president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole bunch _ president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole bunch of- president putin and kim jong—un getting a whole bunch of korean| president putin and kim jong—un . getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate _ getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate ammunition. _ getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate ammunition. all- getting a whole bunch of korean no partygate ammunition. all this - partygate ammunition. all this progress — partygate ammunition. all this progress we _ partygate ammunition. all this progress we have _ partygate ammunition. all this progress we have seen - partygate ammunition. all this progress we have seen of- partygate ammunition. all this i progress we have seen of ukraine pushing _ progress we have seen of ukraine pushing hack— progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will— progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will be _ progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will be for _ progress we have seen of ukraine pushing back will be for nothing i pushing back will be for nothing if we do _ pushing back will be for nothing if we do not — pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh— pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh our— pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh our military- pushing back will be for nothing if we do not refresh our military aid| we do not refresh our military aid and that— we do not refresh our military aid and that looks _ we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like _ we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like it _ we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like it is— we do not refresh our military aid and that looks like it is running. and that looks like it is running out _ and that looks like it is running out. �* . , and that looks like it is running out. ., , ., , and that looks like it is running out. ~ ., , ., out. and that is tangled up on caitol out. and that is tangled up on capitol hill — out. and that is tangled up on capitol mu in _ out. and that is tangled up on capitol hill in washington - out. and that is tangled up on capitol hill in washington at l out. and that is tangled up on i capitol hill in washington at the moment. we will talk about that later in the programme. let's hear then from the man at the centre of this tangle — robertjenrick, friend and ally of rishi sunak, was in charge of the government's immigration plans, but he suddenly quit on the day the prime minister's plans came out — judging the plans simply not up to snuff. in his "dear rishi" letter, he said the proposal was "a triumph of hope over experience". he said "stronger protections" were "required to end the merry—go—round of legal challenges" which could paralyse the scheme. he's with us this morning for his first interview since he resigned. thank you for coming to speak to us this morning. thank you for coming to speak to us this morning-— this morning. good morning, laura. wh did this morning. good morning, laura. why did you — this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? — this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? in _ this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? in government i this morning. good morning, laura. why did you quit? in government if| why did you quit? in government if ou have why did you quit? in government if you have problems _ why did you quit? in government if you have problems with _ why did you quit? in government if you have problems with proposalsl why did you quit? in government if i you have problems with proposals you are leading, it is right you step away. on legal and illegal migration i felt we were not heading in the right direction. i couldn't be the minister who was guarding this critical bill to parliament, recommending it to parliamentarians and the public if i felt, as i do, it is a weak bill that will not work. ~ , ,., i. work. the prime minister said your resignation — work. the prime minister said your resignation was _ work. the prime minister said your resignation was based _ work. the prime minister said your resignation was based on - work. the prime minister said your resignation was based on what - work. the prime minister said your resignation was based on what he l resignation was based on what he described as a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. do you not understand the plans for a wonder, or does the prime minister not understand the plans for a wonder? i not understand the plans for a wonder? ., , , , wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more _ wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than _ wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than anyone - wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than anyone else i wonder? i have immersed myself in this issue more than anyone else in | this issue more than anyone else in government. the prime minister said the other day i was probably the minister who knows more about this topic than any he has met in europe. i think i do understand this issue. he is wrong to say? i i think i do understand this issue. he is wrong to say?— he is wrong to say? i respect the prime minister, _ he is wrong to say? i respect the prime minister, but _ he is wrong to say? i respect the prime minister, but our - he is wrong to say? i respect the i prime minister, but our disagreement is on this issue and it is a totemic one to the future of the conservative party and the public. i don't believe this bill will work. i think it will lead to a range of legal claims which will bog down the scheme and will not create the deterrent that he and i set out to achieve. and the test for this is not, can you get one or two symbolic flights off before the next election with a handful of illegal migrants on them. it is can you create a strong deterrent that is sustainable and stops the boats and protects the borders of this country for years to come? that is what i want to achieve and i'm afraid this bill is not it. and you will not vote for it on tuesday?— tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting _ tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting this _ tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting this bill. i tuesday? no, iwill not be supporting this bill. but i l tuesday? no, i will not be i supporting this bill. but i do tuesday? no, i will not be - supporting this bill. but i do think we can fix this. that is what i want to do now, i care about this policy and i care about border security. i am determined we can persuade the government and colleagues in parliament that there is a better way. parliament that there is a better wa . ~ . , parliament that there is a better wa , ~ ., , ., parliament that there is a better wa . ~ ., , ., . ., parliament that there is a better wa. ., ., parliament that there is a better way. what is at the core of this is what ou way. what is at the core of this is what you have — way. what is at the core of this is what you have hinted _ way. what is at the core of this is what you have hinted there, i way. what is at the core of this is what you have hinted there, and | what you have hinted there, and without getting into a legal tangle, but explain to viewers at the heart of this, whether or not migrants would have the right to challenge being sent to rwanda in the courts? it is your belief, which you have made clear that there could be lots of appeals which could gum up the system, what chance does the government's legal advice give the system a chance of working? it is system a chance of working? it is not riaht system a chance of working? it is not right for _ system a chance of working? it is not right for me _ system a chance of working? it is not right for me to _ system a chance of working? it 3 not right for me to speak about private and legal advice. we have seen a report in the press which suggests the government's own view is it has a relatively low likelihood of success. ~ , , , likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying _ likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it — likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it doesn't? - likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it doesn't? is - likelihood of success. why is rishi sunak saying it doesn't? is he i sunak saying it doesn't? is he misleading people?— sunak saying it doesn't? is he misleading people? sunak saying it doesn't? is he misleadin: --eole? ~ . . , misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. _ misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. and _ misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. and i _ misleading people? what matters here is a bill that works. and i said - is a bill that works. and i said very directly to the prime minister that if he and i are going to persuade colleagues in parliament and above all, the public, because this is about the public, that the scheme actually works we have to be absolutely certain it is going to succeed. remember, laura, we have already done two bills. this is the third bill, it is three strikes and you're out. i want this bill to work and create that powerful deterrent. i am afraid it is very clear to all those people who really understand how this system operates, that this bill will not succeed, as you just alluded to, what will happen is that absolutely everyone who comes across on a small boat will put in the claim that rwanda might be generally safe, but for individual reasons, it is not safe for them and that will have a number of practical implications.— have a number of practical implications. have a number of practical imlications. ~ ., ., implications. we have said anyone who understands _ implications. we have said anyone who understands this _ implications. we have said anyone who understands this knows i implications. we have said anyone who understands this knows that l implications. we have said anyone| who understands this knows that it will not really work. yet the prime minister, yourfriend and ally, stood at select urn in downing street this week, quite angrily saying it will work, there is only a vanishingly narrow chance of there being a small number of appeals. so the implication of what you have said is either rishi sunak doesn't understand these proposals or he is somehow massaging his message of the public to pretend this bill will do more than you believe it can? irate more than you believe it can? - respectfully disagree on this one issue. i think a political choice has been made to bring forward a bill which doesn't do the job. and i think that at this moment, when you have got small boats prices where 114,000 have got small boats prices where iilr,000 people have crossed the channel on dangerous, unnecessary, illegal small boats, that we cannot take that risk. the stakes, as you said in your introduction, or simply too high. d0 said in your introduction, or simply too hiuh. ,, , said in your introduction, or simply toohiuh. , too high. do you believe the uk has too high. do you believe the uk has to leave the — too high. do you believe the uk has to leave the european _ too high. do you believe the uk has to leave the european convention i too high. do you believe the uk has| to leave the european convention on human rights to make this work? ida. human rights to make this work? no, i don't. i human rights to make this work? no, i don't- i do — human rights to make this work? i457, i don't. i do think there is a very strong argument for leaving the european convention on human rights, but that is a debate for another day. there are respectable legal arguments for doing all the things i am proposing whilst remaining consistent with international law obligations. irate consistent with international law obligations-— obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened _ obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? - obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? i- obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? iwill- obligations. we do think the bill can be toughened up? i will say| obligations. we do think the bill i can be toughened up? i will say that even if that — can be toughened up? i will say that even if that were _ can be toughened up? i will say that even if that were not _ can be toughened up? i will say that even if that were not the _ can be toughened up? i will say that even if that were not the case, i i even if that were not the case, i will always put the vital national interests of this country and the views and concerns of the british public above contested notions of international law. we are sent to parliament to represent those people, the general public. we are not sent to parliament to be concerned about our reputations on the gilded international circuit. it is absolutely critical be fixed this problem because in myjob, day in, day out i have seen the untold damage that the small boat arrivals are doing to the country. the community cohesion issues, the billions of pounds wasted on hotels, money that could be spent on better things for the british public or making a bigger contribution internationally to supporting those who are genuinely in danger. lives are being lost in the channel and evil people smuggling gangs are feasting on the industry that is being created. we have to stop this once and for all and if you share my determination to do that, bring forward the toughest possible legislation. forward the toughest possible legislation-— forward the toughest possible leaislation. ., ., ., legislation. there are one that oli is legislation. there are one that policy is only _ legislation. there are one that policy is only at _ legislation. there are one that policy is only at the _ legislation. there are one that policy is only at the beginning | legislation. there are one that l policy is only at the beginning to deal with a couple of hundred a year? deal with a couple of hundred a ear? ,. , , , deal with a couple of hundred a ear? ,. , ., year? the scheme is uncapped and has otential to year? the scheme is uncapped and has potential to go — year? the scheme is uncapped and has potential to go much _ year? the scheme is uncapped and has potential to go much higher— year? the scheme is uncapped and has potential to go much higher than i potential to go much higher than that. 50 potential to go much higher than that. , , ., , potential to go much higher than that. y , ., , that. so why is it the answer? i never said _ that. so why is it the answer? i never said it _ that. so why is it the answer? i never said it was _ that. so why is it the answer? i never said it was the _ that. so why is it the answer? i never said it was the only i that. so why is it the answer? i never said it was the only part l that. so why is it the answer? i l never said it was the only part of the solution. i've worked immensely hard over the last year and the work the prime minister and i have done together has led to a more than 30% reduction in the numbers coming across and that is the negotiation with albania, work with france, but the key insight i have learnt is that we will not stop the boats in their entirety unless you interject their entirety unless you interject the strongest possible deterrent and thatis the strongest possible deterrent and that is what the rwanda policy delivers. i that is what the rwanda policy delivers. ., ., ., ~ ., ., delivers. i want to talk about legal miuration, delivers. i want to talk about legal migration. but _ delivers. i want to talk about legal migration, but do _ delivers. i want to talk about legal migration, but do you _ delivers. i want to talk about legal migration, but do you think- delivers. i want to talk about legalj migration, but do you think planes will get off the ground and go to rwanda? i will get off the ground and go to rwanda? ., ., , . .., rwanda? i do, i do. it is critical that they _ rwanda? i do, i do. it is critical that they do- — rwanda? i do, i do. it is critical that they do. i _ rwanda? i do, i do. it is critical that they do. i don't _ rwanda? i do, i do. it is critical that they do. i don't think i rwanda? i do, i do. it is critical that they do. i don't think they| that they do. i don't think they will get up and running under this bill and we will certainly not deliver the serious deterrent, the sustainable deterrent i am looking for unless we change this bill. i hope the prime minister and the government will listen. let’s hope the prime minister and the government will listen. let's talk about legal _ government will listen. let's talk about legal migration. _ government will listen. let's talk about legal migration. we i government will listen. let's talk about legal migration. we have l about legal migration. we have talked about record numbers of people coming to this country for good or for ill. people coming to this country for good orfor ill. there have been some changes the prime minister announced this week. do you think there's changes would have come about if he had not been pushing behind—the—scenes? i about if he had not been pushing behind-the-scenes?_ about if he had not been pushing behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but whatl behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but what i do behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but what i do know— behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but what i do know is _ behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but what i do know is each _ behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but what i do know is each and _ behind-the-scenes? i don't know. but what i do know is each and every i what i do know is each and every conservative mp was elected in 2019 on a manifesto commitment to bring down net migration. it is critical we do that now. leaving the european union was a great reform and it gave us control of the levers of migration for the first time. the argument i have been making in office is we have the levers, use them and it is so important we do that. not because a matter of fundamental trust in democracy because our fellow citizens have been voting for 30 years for lower levels of migration and successive governments of all stripes have failed to do that. you governments of all stripes have failed to do that.— governments of all stripes have failed to do that. you have been art of failed to do that. you have been part of those — failed to do that. you have been part of those governments, i failed to do that. you have been part of those governments, we | failed to do that. you have been i part of those governments, we have been a minister for part of those governments, we have been a ministerfor a part of those governments, we have been a minister for a very long time until this week. when did you suddenly wake up and be zealous about the need for action on this? i'v e i've always cared about this. i housing secretary i was deeply concerned about the housing crisis exacerbated by high migration. as a community secretary i worked hard on community secretary i worked hard on community integration and i'm very worried a million new people coming into our country every year is damaging our ability to integrate those people successfully. what's the evidence _ those people successfully. what's the evidence of— those people successfully. what's the evidence of that? _ those people successfully. what's the evidence of that? it's - those people successfully. what's the evidence of that? it's easy i those people successfully. what's the evidence of that? it's easy to | the evidence of that? it's easy to say that to grab headlines and some people find it provocative, what is your evidence that integration isn't working? i your evidence that integration isn't workinu ? ~ . working? i think there are communities _ working? i think there are communities in _ working? i think there are communities in our- working? i think there are l communities in our country working? i think there are - communities in our country where people are leading parallel lives and it's an obvious observation that and it's an obvious observation that a million people coming into our country every year is immensely challenging to successfully integrate and i'm afraid you see that, i've seen that recently for example with the marches through london where i saw some people who simply did not share dish values. i thought that was wrong, it was deeply disturbing. i think we've got to take action to address that. is that connected to migration? i to take action to address that. is i that connected to migration? i think it's connected _ that connected to migration? i think it's connected and _ that connected to migration? i think it's connected and we _ that connected to migration? i think it's connected and we have - that connected to migration? i think it's connected and we have to i that connected to migration? i think| it's connected and we have to change that. it's connected and we have to change that, , ., , it's connected and we have to change that. , .,, i. ., it's connected and we have to change that. , ., , that. some people in your own party and some viewers _ that. some people in your own party and some viewers think _ that. some people in your own party and some viewers think it's - that. some people in your own party and some viewers think it's about i and some viewers think it's about something different, that the tory party is in deep trouble, it's been a shambolic period of time and this is also about your own ambition for the future. if this all collapses into a contest would you rule out running for the leadership? i’m running for the leadership? i'm interested _ running for the leadership? i'm interested in _ running for the leadership? i�*m interested in that, i'm running for the leadership? in interested in that, i'm slowly interested in that, i'm slowly interested in that, i'm slowly interested in this policy. i want the conservative party to win the next general election and make good on its manifesto commitments. we will be in an immeasurably stronger position at the next general election if he we've kept our faith with the british public, we've stopped the boats and met our manifesto commitment on net migration. manifesto commitment on net migration-— migration. and if not, if rishi sunak cannot _ migration. and if not, if rishi sunak cannot get _ migration. and if not, if rishi sunak cannot get these i migration. and if not, if rishi sunak cannot get these plans migration. and if not, if rishi - sunak cannot get these plans through parliament and come toughen them up as you wish, cannot start to see numbers coming down and stop the boats, do the tories have a chance of winning the election you are divided? �* , , . ., ., divided? i've been very clear that the fortunes _ divided? i've been very clear that the fortunes of _ divided? i've been very clear that the fortunes of the _ divided? i've been very clear that the fortunes of the party - divided? i've been very clear that the fortunes of the party hinge i divided? i've been very clear that the fortunes of the party hinge inj the fortunes of the party hinge in good measure on sorting out this issue and we are not unique in that. centre—right parties across europe are facing the same question. if we do not fix this challenge, if we do not meet the public�*s determination to tackle the issue of illegal migration, then we will face the red—hot fury of the public, and i want to see the conservative party meet this moment and tackle a generational challenge.- generational challenge. robert jenrick, thank _ generational challenge. robert jenrick, thank you _ generational challenge. robert jenrick, thank you for - generational challenge. robert jenrick, thank you for giving i generational challenge. robert l jenrick, thank you for giving your jenrick, thank you for giving your first interview since resigning, great to have you in the studio. that was the man who was meant to be in charge of the proposals that rishi sunak has tied himself to and which he defended at a rather tetchy press conference earlier this week. my my patience with this has worn thin. if someone who was a member of the government until a few days ago thinks ministers have got the new plans wrong, and failed for years on a subject so close to voters' hearts, where does that leave the conservatives? michael gove, the housing secretary, is holding the conch for the government today. welcome to the studio. we've heard robertjenrick tell us that your party's robertjenrick tell us that your pa rty�*s electoral fortunes robertjenrick tell us that your party's electoral fortunes depend on sorting this out. is he right? meiiii. sorting this out. is he right? well, i'm not interested _ sorting this out. is he right? well, i'm not interested in _ sorting this out. is he right? well, i'm not interested in electoral- i'm not interested in electoral fortunes, i am interested i'm not interested in electoral fortunes, lam interested in doing what's in the national interest, and the bill that's being brought forward as a robust bill which is legally sound, that will deal effectively with the situation that we face. as robert mentioned earlier, we've taken steps both to deal with legal migration and also with illegal migration. we've already managed to reduce the number of people coming here illegally. this legislation will ensure that the rwanda scheme works and the most important thing i think is not the political consideration, it's the real challenge which robert rightly addresses, of making sure that the public in this country believe that our borders are secure and the migration system works. but promising — migration system works. but promising people a bill that would work and would make a difference, that then does not, can be corrosive to what people believe and how people feel about promises that have been made by the government, and i want to put to use of the things he said, he said the bill is weak, he said, he said the bill is weak, he said anyone who understands all of this properly knows that it will not really work. what do you say to that? ~ ., , really work. what do you say to that? . ., , ,_ really work. what do you say to that? ., , that? well, i have been paying close attention to — that? well, i have been paying close attention to the _ that? well, i have been paying close attention to the words _ that? well, i have been paying close attention to the words of _ that? well, i have been paying close attention to the words of lawyers i attention to the words of lawyers like lord sumption and he is a former supreme courtjustice, he is very clear this bill is a strong and robust and he is also clear that the supreme court, having said that our previous attempts to deport people to rwanda was unlawful, it's important, because people need to know the legal basis on which we are proceeding. jonathan sumption... the proceeding. jonathan sumption. .. the oint proceeding. jonathan sumption... the point here is that michael chang —— robertjenrick and some other lawyers very clear think it will not function as you hope, some of the lawyers do believe that it will be strong, except the prime minister has solemnly promised the country that there is no question that it will work, that there is only a vanishingly narrow chance that people will be able to claim things in the courts that hold it up and there is a legal dispute about this. how can he make that promise when the minister who was in charge of the minister who was in charge of the plans is absolutely convinced that that is not true?— the plans is absolutely convinced that that is not true? because we can all see _ that that is not true? because we can all see what _ that that is not true? because we can all see what is _ that that is not true? because we can all see what is on _ that that is not true? because we can all see what is on the - that that is not true? because we can all see what is on the bill i that that is not true? because we can all see what is on the bill and we can see that it very clearly points out that the only way in which an individual can challenge deportation is if there is an immediate risk of serious and irreversible harm if they were to be deported, and jonathan sumption makes it clear this is such a narrow exemption and it has absolutely nothing to do with rwanda itself. rwanda is clearly a safe country. the legislation makes sure that people can be deported and it deals with many of the cases and many of the reasons that were used beforehand. it strikes out human rights legislation in a way that some people i know find strong meat and it's because the reaction from those who were critical of the bill on one side is so clear that i think that we can take it that this bill is certainly the robust measure. robertjenrick beliefs however, he said to us this morning, everyone could theoretically make a claim, the system would be gummed up. that is not correct- — the system would be gummed up. that is not correct. the _ the system would be gummed up. that is not correct. the point _ the system would be gummed up. that is not correct. the point for— the system would be gummed up. that is not correct. the point for our- is not correct. the point for our viewers this — is not correct. the point for our viewers this morning, - is not correct. the point for our viewers this morning, lawyers l is not correct. the point for our. viewers this morning, lawyers do is not correct. the point for our- viewers this morning, lawyers do not yet agree whether this bill will really, really work and yet the prime minister is making solemn promises to the public that it will make a real difference, and the man who was in charge of this untiljust a few days ago is convinced that it is not enough to stop this is a shambles on a policy that rishi sunak has absolutely wrapped around himself. i sunak has absolutely wrapped around himself. ~' . .., himself. i think the critical thing is to look at _ himself. i think the critical thing is to look at the _ himself. i think the critical thing is to look at the legislation i himself. i think the critical thing| is to look at the legislation itself and again, the legislation makes crystal clear the basis on which people can be deported and i think that most people looking at the bill and recognising that it means that you cannot use existing human rights legislation, you cannot use any of the provisions that were cited in the provisions that were cited in the past, will be able to see that this is precisely the measure required in order to deal with the situation. of course, there are some lawyers who disagree. lawyers are, by their very nature, disputatious, that but the black and white letter of this legislation makes it clear that the number of individual cases that the number of individual cases that can be cited is very small and also it makes it clear that ministers will make a decision about whether or not someone should be deported on the basis of administrative law. ~ ., ., administrative law. what will that number be then? _ administrative law. what will that number be then? the _ administrative law. what will that number be then? the number- administrative law. what will that. number be then? the number sent administrative law. what will that i number be then? the number sent to rwanda. number be then? the number sent to rwanda- the — number be then? the number sent to rwanda. the number— number be then? the number sent to rwanda. the number who _ number be then? the number sent to rwanda. the number who will - number be then? the number sent to | rwanda. the number who will appeal? vanishinul rwanda. the number who will appeal? vanishingly small _ rwanda. the number who will appeal? vanishingly small and _ rwanda. the number who will appeal? vanishingly small and thanks - rwanda. the number who will appeal? vanishingly small and thanks to i vanishingly small and thanks to robert's work and i must pay tribute to him, we managed to secure an agreement with albania which is similar though not identical... what similar though not identical... what ro ortion similar though not identical. .. what proportion of— similar though not identical... what proportion of people _ similar though not identical... what proportion of people do you think may still make sound claims? the albania may still make sound claims? tue: albania provision has may still make sound claims? iie: albania provision has ensured that 90% of people who have arrived here from albania can be returned and the reason why albania is relevant is again we've said albania is a safe country, it is, so my confident expectation would be that the overwhelming majority of people who we choose to sent to rwanda will be sent to rwanda, but more than that, you don't need to take my word for it, you merely need to see what lord sumption and a variety of other lawyers, from cambridge university and others, have said. so lawyers, from cambridge university and others, have said.— and others, have said. so you said the overwhelming _ and others, have said. so you said the overwhelming majority, - and others, have said. so you said the overwhelming majority, that's| the overwhelming majority, that's your definition of what you hope will happen and what you know will happen, we'll see what happens in the courts, if indeed this gets through parliament because there is a question about whether it will get through the commons let alone then the house of lords. but you could publish the government's legal advice, put it out there, then everyone can make their own judgment. why not do that? because governments — judgment. why not do that? because governments never _ judgment. why not do that? because governments never publish _ judgment. why not do that? because governments never publish their- governments never publish their legal advice. governments never publish their legal advice-— governments never publish their legal advice. sometimes they are dra: ued legal advice. sometimes they are dragged into _ legal advice. sometimes they are dragged into it. _ legal advice. sometimes they are dragged into it, over _ legal advice. sometimes they are dragged into it, over brexit, - dragged into it, over brexit, theresa may's government was. there is a plethora — theresa may's government was. there is a plethora of — theresa may's government was. there is a plethora of legal _ theresa may's government was. ii—iiff is a plethora of legal opinion out there from people of significant weight but more than that i would want to see what the case against the legislation was and it seems to me that people are saying some of these individuals will use some of these individuals will use some of the excuses orjustifications that they have used in the past, but the bill explicitly ousts them and it is very clear that all of the justifications that have been used will no longer apply, so it is only, and it is a very high legal bar, the immediate risk of serious and irreversible harm relating to the individual characteristics of one person and it is important... fiur person and it is important... our viewers have _ person and it is important... our viewers have heard very clearly the man who just lined, viewers have heard very clearly the man whojust lined, part viewers have heard very clearly the man who just lined, part of designing that legislation, doesn't go far enough. i'd like to ask the wider question. robertjenrick believes essentially as we've heard very clearly that for years your party has failed to grapple with illegal migration and legal migration. do you think immigration of more than 600,000 people coming to this country a year is what leave voters and the brexit campaign were expecting? have you let them down? it's only because we are outside the european union that we can take the steps we are taking now. your question was longer than my answer, you raise an important issue which is when we left the european union did we take back control? yes, we can now take steps to reduce those numbers that we were not able to take before, but more than that you also asked the question, is it acceptable to have those numbers, and i don't believe it is, which is why earlier this week the home secretary introduced measures in order to ensure that we could reduce the number of people coming here through illegal routes, tightened the visas over people coming to work, reduce the number of dependents of those coming here to work and also why we are introduced they rwanda legislation which has an effective deterrent against the people smuggling gangs who take people smuggling gangs who take people here in the league —— illegally and we've also seen thanks to robert and again i want to thank him for his service, a reduction in the number of people coming here over the english channel. but it over the english channel. but if it's all going — over the english channel. but if it's all going so _ over the english channel. but if it's all going so well... - over the english channel. but if it's all going so well... i - over the english channel. but if. it's all going so well... i wouldn't sa it it's all going so well... i wouldn't say it was — it's all going so well... i wouldn't say it was going _ it's all going so well... i wouldn't say it was going well, _ it's all going so well... i wouldn't say it was going well, i _ it's all going so well... i wouldn't say it was going well, i would - it's all going so well... i wouldn't| say it was going well, i would not boast, i think it's unfortunate that people see the context —— i think it's important that people see the context. ~ ., �* , it's important that people see the context. ~ . �* , ., it's important that people see the context. ~ . �*, ., ., context. what's going on here thou~h? context. what's going on here though? we've _ context. what's going on here though? we've had _ context. what's going on here i though? we've had resignations, context. what's going on here - though? we've had resignations, the tory splits are there for all to see, factions all over the place, rishi sunak's unique selling point was meant to be bringing calm back to the conservative party but it's been shambolic, hasn't it come on his flagship policy? his poll ratings are sometimes lower than when liz truss was in charge, we all know what views you took of her administration. would voters be forgiven forjust administration. would voters be forgiven for just having administration. would voters be forgiven forjust having had enough of all of you fighting with each other? ~ , ., , of all of you fighting with each other? ~ ,., , ,., .., other? well, polls, political commentary. _ other? well, polls, political commentary, you _ other? well, polls, political commentary, you have - other? well, polls, political commentary, you have a i other? well, polls, political. commentary, you have a panel other? well, polls, political- commentary, you have a panelwho other? well, polls, political— commentary, you have a panelwho can commentary, you have a panel who can discuss that. myjob as a minister is to deliver policy and it is to make sure that the legislation and the administrative changes that people want to see are enacted appropriately, so my focus earlier this week was looking at the changes that we were making to the legal migration route in order to make sure that we worked and we balanced the need to reduce numbers and protect our borders with making sure that we have access to high quality labour in specific areas, so... what labour in specific areas, so... what would you — labour in specific areas, so... what would you say _ labour in specific areas, so... what would you say to — labour in specific areas, so... what would you say to some _ labour in specific areas, so... what would you say to some of- labour in specific areas, so... what would you say to some of your - would you say to some of your colleagues who are discussing whether or not it's time to think about yet another leadership change, putting on no—confidence letters, what would you say to them? i’d putting on no-confidence letters, what would you say to them? i'd say let's focus on _ what would you say to them? i'd say let's focus on the _ what would you say to them? i'd say let's focus on the job. _ what would you say to them? i'd say let's focus on the job. we _ what would you say to them? i'd say let's focus on the job. we were - let's focus on the job. we were elected in 2019 in order to deliver. we have to ensure we get notjust our migration policy right but we also ensure that numbers on waiting lists in the nhs come down, we need to make sure the economic reforms we needin to make sure the economic reforms we need in order to level up the country are delivered, and that we needin country are delivered, and that we need in particular to ensure that our housing market works effectively for the next generation, so again there is an interesting political commentary and speculation which i completely understand, but myjob is to be part of a government determined to deliver. it’s to be part of a government determined to deliver. it's also cuite determined to deliver. it's also quite important _ determined to deliver. it's also quite important to _ determined to deliver. it's also quite important to our - determined to deliver. it's also quite important to our viewers | quite important to our viewers whether or not they have a government that's functioning properly or is busy fighting amongst itself but i'm sure we are very short on time, before you leave i'd like to ask you about another news story that has broken this morning. will remember the story around baroness mone, the business woman who had ppd contracts with the government, she has admitted for the first time she was involved with the company ppe med pro, which got £200 million worth of contracts during the pandemic. it said you were the first post and she spoke to about this in government. do you regret the way it was handled? there are two things, it is important to stress there is a national crime investigation, so there is a number of limited things i can say while this investigation goes on. the other thing, ministers did not take individual decisions on who should receive contracts during the pandemic. there's decisions were taken by a painstaking process by teams of social seven to assess the readiness of any contract put forward. 50 the suggestion that somehow perform at that somehow ministers were seeking bulut rete to line the pockets of other individuals is totally unjustified. the decisions were only taken after a proper coherent and fair procurement process. like any procurement process. like any procurement process, might it sometimes be the case, the goods which have been bought turn out not to be adequate. that is deeply regrettable but that is a consequence, i regrettable but that is a consequence, lam regrettable but that is a consequence, i am afraid of what happened a pressure during a time when everyone in the public realm was doing their very best to try to ensure that we protected those on the front line. a, ensure that we protected those on the front line.— the front line. a real scramble at the front line. a real scramble at the beginning — the front line. a real scramble at the beginning of— the front line. a real scramble at the beginning of the _ the front line. a real scramble at the beginning of the pandemic. l the beginning of the pandemic. michael gove, thank you. what do you think? let us know. email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak and we'll try and share some of of the conversation later in the show. kepa, michael gove saying this is political investigation and i'm not going to get into under tory turmoil? it going to get into under tory turmoil? ., , going to get into under tory turmoil? . , ., ,. ., going to get into under tory turmoil? . , . ,. ., ., . turmoil? it was fascinating watching michael gove _ turmoil? it was fascinating watching michael gove and _ turmoil? it was fascinating watching michael gove and robert _ turmoil? it was fascinating watching michael gove and robert jenrick - michael gove and robertjenrick sitting there earlier. you can imagine michael gove saying, "you were only supposed to blow the bloody doors off?. i am so surprised we have reached this point, we are on third prime minister after the election and there are tory mps he was there quite seriously questioning whether they want rishi sunak to take them into the next election. it has been more than a dozen who have suggested putting letters of no confidence in and it is unlikely there will be a marked campaign to get rid of rishi sunak in the way we have seen some previous conservative leaders. but there is a danger they will be an accidental leadership bid, leadership push, i should say, as a result of this migration policy. anyone sitting on the outside, whether viewers at home or a journalist and political observers will be watching this and asking why is the conservative party blowing itself up, yet again.— is the conservative party blowing itself up, yet again. damian, why are ou itself up, yet again. damian, why are you trying _ itself up, yet again. damian, why are you trying to _ itself up, yet again. damian, why are you trying to blow _ itself up, yet again. damian, why are you trying to blow each - itself up, yet again. damian, why are you trying to blow each other| itself up, yet again. damian, why i are you trying to blow each other up again? i are you trying to blow each other up auain? ., are you trying to blow each other up auain? . , ., ., , , again? i agree, it is a vanishingly small number— again? i agree, it is a vanishingly small number and _ again? i agree, it is a vanishingly small number and anyone - again? i agree, it is a vanishingly small number and anyone who i again? i agree, it is a vanishingly - small number and anyone who thinks what the _ small number and anyone who thinks what the conservative party or the country _ what the conservative party or the country needs is a change of prime minister— country needs is a change of prime minister is — country needs is a change of prime minister is mad, malicious or both. it is minister is mad, malicious or both. it is a small— minister is mad, malicious or both. it is a small number doing that. as we have _ it is a small number doing that. as we have heard, this is a difficult issue _ we have heard, this is a difficult issue where ministers are grappling with both _ issue where ministers are grappling with both legal and political sensitivities. if i can pick up two points— sensitivities. if i can pick up two points of— sensitivities. if i can pick up two points of what we have just heard. 0ne, _ points of what we have just heard. one. it _ points of what we have just heard. one. it is — points of what we have just heard. 0ne, it is not true that immigration has gone _ 0ne, it is not true that immigration has gone up — 0ne, it is not true that immigration has gone up inexorably through the period _ has gone up inexorably through the period it _ has gone up inexorably through the period. it did come down after we were _ period. it did come down after we were first — period. it did come down after we were first elected in 2010. one of the reasons, to pick up another point _ the reasons, to pick up another point robert made, was indeed that we have _ point robert made, was indeed that we have over the past year or so, been _ we have over the past year or so, been wasting a lot of taxpayer money putting _ been wasting a lot of taxpayer money putting people up in hotels. the solution — putting people up in hotels. the solution to that is solved the way the asylum system works, make it more _ the asylum system works, make it more efficient. that is what we did in 2010 _ more efficient. that is what we did in 2010 and — more efficient. that is what we did in 2010 and that is what robert has been _ in 2010 and that is what robert has been doing — in 2010 and that is what robert has been doing a lot of work on in the past year— been doing a lot of work on in the past year or— been doing a lot of work on in the past year or so. do been doing a lot of work on in the past year or so-— past year or so. do you think anybody _ past year or so. do you think anybody watching _ past year or so. do you think anybody watching the - past year or so. do you think - anybody watching the conversations you are having on immigration and think, then you know what they are doing? we think, then you know what they are doinu ? ~ , think, then you know what they are doinu ? . , ., doing? we will see over the next few months, shimming _ doing? we will see over the next few months, shimming this _ doing? we will see over the next few months, shimming this legislation i months, shimming this legislation progresses... months, shimming this legislation progresses---_ progresses... that is my next question. _ progresses... that is my next question, which _ progresses... that is my next question, which way - progresses... that is my next question, which way are - progresses... that is my next question, which way are you i progresses... that is my next - question, which way are you going to vote? ., ., ., . �* vote? tomorrow i will decide, i'm eatinu vote? tomorrow i will decide, i'm eating colleagues _ vote? tomorrow i will decide, i'm eating colleagues tomorrow - vote? tomorrow i will decide, i'm eating colleagues tomorrow and l vote? tomorrow i will decide, i'm i eating colleagues tomorrow and we will decide. i have said already, the prime — will decide. i have said already, the prime minister says he is within an inch _ the prime minister says he is within an inch of— the prime minister says he is within an inch of going over the top 20 something people would regard as a legal, _ something people would regard as a legal, there rwandan government apparently has said, you cannot do anything _ apparently has said, you cannot do anything that breaks international obligations. we want to test that proposition and if that proposition is true, _ proposition and if that proposition is true, we — proposition and if that proposition is true, we will welcome it. if it is true, we will welcome it. if it is not _ is true, we will welcome it. if it is not true, _ is true, we will welcome it. if it is not true, we won't. that is where we are _ is not true, we won't. that is where we are. ~ ., is not true, we won't. that is where we are. . ., ., ,, is not true, we won't. that is where we are. . ., ., i. ., ~ ., we are. what do you make of this, ou we are. what do you make of this, you spend — we are. what do you make of this, you spend a lot — we are. what do you make of this, you spend a lot of time _ we are. what do you make of this, | you spend a lot of time going round the world on looking at what is going on in different countries but you watch british politics closely. everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room. _ everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room, which _ everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room, which is _ everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room, which is rwanda. - everyone is ignoring the elephant in the room, which is rwanda. the - the room, which is rwanda. the president — the room, which is rwanda. the president of _ the room, which is rwanda. the president of rwanda _ the room, which is rwanda. the president of rwanda is - the room, which is rwanda. the president of rwanda is like - the room, which is rwanda. the president of rwanda is like the i president of rwanda is like the president — president of rwanda is like the president putin— president of rwanda is like the president putin of— president of rwanda is like the president putin of africa. - president of rwanda is like the president putin of africa. i- president of rwanda is like the i president putin of africa. i know him personally. _ president putin of africa. i know him personally, because - president putin of africa. i know him personally, because the - president putin of africa. i knowi him personally, because the man president putin of africa. i know- him personally, because the man who rescued _ him personally, because the man who rescued people — him personally, because the man who rescued people during _ him personally, because the man who rescued people during the _ him personally, because the man who rescued people during the genocide i rescued people during the genocide was critical — rescued people during the genocide was critical of— rescued people during the genocide was critical of the _ rescued people during the genocide was critical of the rwandan - was critical of the rwandan president _ was critical of the rwandan president. the _ was critical of the rwandan president. the idea - was critical of the rwandan president. the idea that i was critical of the rwandan| president. the idea that we was critical of the rwandan i president. the idea that we will was critical of the rwandan - president. the idea that we will be sending _ president. the idea that we will be sending political— president. the idea that we will be sending political refugees - president. the idea that we will be sending political refugees to - president. the idea that we will be sending political refugees to a i sending political refugees to a country— sending political refugees to a country that _ sending political refugees to a country that is _ sending political refugees to a country that is like _ sending political refugees to a country that is like that - sending political refugees to a country that is like that is i sending political refugees to a i country that is like that is absurd. the whole — country that is like that is absurd. the whole thing _ country that is like that is absurd. the whole thing should _ country that is like that is absurd. the whole thing should be - country that is like that is absurd. the whole thing should be torn i country that is like that is absurd. | the whole thing should be torn up and thrown — the whole thing should be torn up and thrown out. _ the whole thing should be torn up and thrown out. if _ the whole thing should be torn up and thrown out. if you _ the whole thing should be torn up and thrown out. if you want - the whole thing should be torn up and thrown out. if you want to i the whole thing should be torn upi and thrown out. if you want to stop uncontrolled — and thrown out. if you want to stop uncontrolled migration _ and thrown out. if you want to stop uncontrolled migration there - and thrown out. if you want to stop uncontrolled migration there are i uncontrolled migration there are other— uncontrolled migration there are other ways, but _ uncontrolled migration there are other ways, but rwanda - uncontrolled migration there are other ways, but rwanda is - uncontrolled migration there are l other ways, but rwanda is absurd. how did _ other ways, but rwanda is absurd. how did the — other ways, but rwanda is absurd. how did the tories _ other ways, but rwanda is absurd. how did the tories get _ other ways, but rwanda is absurd. how did the tories get to - other ways, but rwanda is absurd. how did the tories get to this i how did the tories get to this point, pippa? br; how did the tories get to this point. pippa?— how did the tories get to this oint, piua? j .,~ ., ., point, pippa? by making immigration and stop the boats _ point, pippa? by making immigration and stop the boats is _ point, pippa? by making immigration and stop the boats is one _ point, pippa? by making immigration and stop the boats is one of- point, pippa? by making immigration and stop the boats is one of rishi i and stop the boats is one of rishi sunak's key policies he was going to deliver on... mas sunak's key policies he was going to deliver on- - -— sunak's key policies he was going to deliver on. . ._ i | deliver on... was that a mistake? i can understand _ deliver on... was that a mistake? i can understand why, _ deliver on. .. was that a mistake? i can understand why, if— deliver on... was that a mistake? i can understand why, if you - deliver on... was that a mistake? i can understand why, if you want i deliver on... was that a mistake? i can understand why, if you want to | can understand why, if you want to look at the voters from the previous election, people who previously voted labour voted tory for the first time in 2019, but it is important to say, across the board, the cost of living, the state of the nhs and the cost of living particular... nhs and the cost of living particular. . ._ nhs and the cost of living articular... .,, ., ., particular... cost of living one, nhs is number _ particular... cost of living one, nhs is number two _ particular... cost of living one, nhs is number two and - particular... cost of living one, nhs is number two and then i nhs is number two and then immigration number three. immigration is an important issue, i don't _ immigration is an important issue, i don't think— immigration is an important issue, i don't think it — immigration is an important issue, i don't think it can be ignored. but there _ don't think it can be ignored. but there were — don't think it can be ignored. but there were two big immigration announcements last week. illegal immigration, stopping the boats is important — immigration, stopping the boats is important but it is about 3% of the numbers— important but it is about 3% of the numbers coming here. the most important — numbers coming here. the most important thing the government needs to do is— important thing the government needs to do is have a clear policy to bring — to do is have a clear policy to bring down the overall numbers. actually, — bring down the overall numbers. actually, that's off announcement james _ actually, that's off announcement james cleverly made last week goes a lon- james cleverly made last week goes a long way— james cleverly made last week goes a long way to _ james cleverly made last week goes a long way to doing that. and that is what _ long way to doing that. and that is what you _ long way to doing that. and that is what you need to reassure people, that we _ what you need to reassure people, that we are — what you need to reassure people, that we are not going to have the societal _ that we are not going to have the societal problems that people like robert _ societal problems that people like robertjenrick societal problems that people like robert jenrick have societal problems that people like robertjenrick have been societal problems that people like robert jenrick have been talking about _ robert jenrick have been talking about. ~ ., ., ., robert jenrick have been talking about. ., ., ., ., about. we are going to let you have about. we are going to let you have a si of about. we are going to let you have a sip of water- _ about. we are going to let you have a sip of water. let's _ about. we are going to let you have a sip of water. let's talk _ about. we are going to let you have a sip of water. let's talk about i a sip of water. let's talk about ukraine, we are about to hear from the first lady of ukraine, and he said ukraine isjust weeks the first lady of ukraine, and he said ukraine is just weeks away from running out of ammunition is. what are the consequences for all of us if ukraine fails to hold back russia? i if ukraine fails to hold back russia? ., if ukraine fails to hold back russia? ~' , ., , ., russia? i think everyone needs to understand _ russia? i think everyone needs to understand that president - russia? i think everyone needs to understand that president putin's| understand that president putin's .oes understand that president putin's goes not — understand that president putin's goes not to— understand that president putin's goes not to stop _ understand that president putin's goes not to stop ukraine. - understand that president putin's goes not to stop ukraine. if- understand that president putin's. goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine runs out— goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine runs out of— goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine runs out of guns. _ goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine runs out of guns, he _ goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine runs out of guns, he succeeds i goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine runs out of guns, he succeeds in- goes not to stop ukraine. if ukraine| runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion— runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion we — runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion we thought _ runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion we thought he _ runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion we thought he was - runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion we thought he was going i runs out of guns, he succeeds in the invasion we thought he was going to succeed _ invasion we thought he was going to succeed in— invasion we thought he was going to succeed in three _ invasion we thought he was going to succeed in three days _ invasion we thought he was going to succeed in three days in. _ invasion we thought he was going to succeed in three days in. he - invasion we thought he was going to succeed in three days in. he takes. invasion we thought he was going to succeed in three days in. he takes a| succeed in three days in. he takes a piece _ succeed in three days in. he takes a piece of— succeed in three days in. he takes a piece of ukraine _ succeed in three days in. he takes a piece of ukraine and _ succeed in three days in. he takes a piece of ukraine and then _ succeed in three days in. he takes a piece of ukraine and then perhaps. piece of ukraine and then perhaps there _ piece of ukraine and then perhaps there is— piece of ukraine and then perhaps there is a — piece of ukraine and then perhaps there is a short—term _ piece of ukraine and then perhaps there is a short—term low. - piece of ukraine and then perhaps there is a short—term low. he i there is a short—term low. he re-arms— there is a short—term low. he re-arms and _ there is a short—term low. he re—arms and then _ there is a short—term low. he re—arms and then the - there is a short—term low. he re—arms and then the next i there is a short—term low. he i re—arms and then the next thing he does _ re—arms and then the next thing he does is _ re—arms and then the next thing he does is go — re—arms and then the next thing he does is go after— re—arms and then the next thing he does is go after estonia, _ re—arms and then the next thing he does is go after estonia, latvia i re—arms and then the next thing he does is go after estonia, latvia and | does is go after estonia, latvia and lithuania — does is go after estonia, latvia and lithuania. these _ does is go after estonia, latvia and lithuania. these countries- does is go after estonia, latvia and lithuania. these countries are i does is go after estonia, latvia and | lithuania. these countries are nato allies— lithuania. these countries are nato allies and _ lithuania. these countries are nato allies and we — lithuania. these countries are nato allies and we have _ lithuania. these countries are nato allies and we have a _ lithuania. these countries are nato allies and we have a treaty - allies and we have a treaty obligation— allies and we have a treaty obligation to _ allies and we have a treaty obligation to defend - allies and we have a treatyj obligation to defend them. allies and we have a treaty i obligation to defend them. if he succeeds — obligation to defend them. if he succeeds in _ obligation to defend them. if he succeeds in ukraine _ obligation to defend them. if he succeeds in ukraine we - obligation to defend them. if he succeeds in ukraine we are i obligation to defend them. if he i succeeds in ukraine we are faced with a _ succeeds in ukraine we are faced with a terrible _ succeeds in ukraine we are faced with a terrible situation, - succeeds in ukraine we are faced with a terrible situation, which i succeeds in ukraine we are faced with a terrible situation, which isj with a terrible situation, which is do we _ with a terrible situation, which is do we go — with a terrible situation, which is do we go to— with a terrible situation, which is do we go to war— with a terrible situation, which is do we go to war with _ with a terrible situation, which is do we go to war with russia i with a terrible situation, which is do we go to war with russia or. with a terrible situation, which isi do we go to war with russia or do with a terrible situation, which is- do we go to war with russia or do we tear up— do we go to war with russia or do we tear up the _ do we go to war with russia or do we tear up the nato— do we go to war with russia or do we tear up the nato treaty— do we go to war with russia or do we tear up the nato treaty and - do we go to war with russia or do we tear up the nato treaty and let - tear up the nato treaty and let every — tear up the nato treaty and let every man _ tear up the nato treaty and let every man for— tear up the nato treaty and let every man for himself - tear up the nato treaty and let every man for himself in - tear up the nato treaty and let i every man for himself in europe? in either— every man for himself in europe? in either case, — every man for himself in europe? in either case, it— every man for himself in europe? in either case, it is— every man for himself in europe? in either case, it is a _ every man for himself in europe? in either case, it is a much— every man for himself in europe? in either case, it is a much worse i either case, it is a much worse situation — either case, it is a much worse situation than _ either case, it is a much worse situation than to _ either case, it is a much worse situation than to give - either case, it is a much worse situation than to give the - situation than to give the ukrainians— situation than to give the ukrainians what- situation than to give the ukrainians what they - situation than to give the. ukrainians what they need situation than to give the - ukrainians what they need to situation than to give the _ ukrainians what they need to bravely fi-ht ukrainians what they need to bravely fight off— ukrainians what they need to bravely fight off vladimir— ukrainians what they need to bravely fight off vladimir putin _ ukrainians what they need to bravely fight off vladimir putin and - ukrainians what they need to bravely fight off vladimir putin and his - fight off vladimir putin and his murderous _ fight off vladimir putin and his murderous army. _ fight off vladimir putin and his murderous army. we - fight off vladimir putin and his murderous army.— fight off vladimir putin and his murderous army. fight off vladimir putin and his murderous arm . ~ , a, murderous army. we will see what the decisions are — murderous army. we will see what the decisions are made _ murderous army. we will see what the decisions are made in _ murderous army. we will see what the decisions are made in washington, - murderous army. we will see what the decisions are made in washington, dc| decisions are made in washington, dc about the critical funding. thank you for now, talking about different things, including the rwanda policy and the parliament is declaring rwanda a safe policy. you might remember on our very first programme we spoke to the ukrainian first lady, olena zelenska. back then western politicians were falling over themselves to swear their devotion to the cause, and billions of dollars, pounds and euros poured forth, in defiance of the kremlin. not so much any more, with america failing to agree on the latest chunk of support. we have always promised that we would keep talking about what is going on there, on the edge of our continent. so on friday i met up again with olena, in kyiv, just hours after sirens warning of an attack had sounded out over the city. translation: you know, i here in ukraine, we probably get used to it somehow. when i hear a siren, my first thought, if it is daytime and my child is at school, my first thought is whether they have gone down to the shelter. my second thought is how long the alert is going to last and if i will manage to accomplish everything planned. work stops for everyone. air raid alerts are notjust about the fear that a missile will hit, the alerts mean that everything stops. every time it has an effect on the economy, when businesses stop operating and shops close. you mentioned there when the sirens go off you think of your son, is he at school, is he going to the shelter. i know you've taken a big interest in what's happening to all children in ukraine and how they're coping at this time. what is the hardest thing that you've seen and how are you trying to help? translation: the hardest is that i in many cases childhood is on pause. it is stolen. i mean, only one third of the children can physically attend schools and kindergarten. one third of the children in ukraine. because there are physically no shelters. that's why now, as a matter of urgency, shelters are being set up and equipped in ukraine, for as many children as possible to be able to go back to what is at least remotely normal life. recently, in kharkiv, a school was opened under the ground. surely this is nonsense — a school in the metro. the truth is, kharkiv is very close to the front line and the russian border, so missiles reach it very quickly. meaning not a single school in kharkiv can afford to host children. they won't make it to the shelter on time. when that project was launched as far as i know many teachers, parents, adults in general, strongly opposed it. i mean, children have to stay the entire day under the ground without seeing sunlight. now that the project has already been launched, it saw such huge gratitude from children. when you see how happy the children are to see each other again, to be among friends again and to study again, it is happiness. with so many pressures on people here there is also pressure from abroad. when we spoke last time we talked about the huge support that ukraine had had from western allies. the mood seems to have changed somewhat. in america, congress is dragging its feet over granting more important dollars for the ukrainian war effort. if that money doesn't come, what do you fear will happen? translation: well, it's a very complicated situation. - yes, really. we do need aid desperately. in simple terms... ..we cannot get tired of the situation, because otherwise we will die. and if the world gets tired, they will simply let us die. and given what is happening, this danger that the aid will slow down constitutes a mortal danger to us. for this reason it cannot but scare us. it cannot support us and we need any kind of support, even moral. do you feel though that that support has faded and do you worry that the world is forgetting ukraine? translation: yes, we do worry. but being worried won't change anything. the thing is, our military counts the shells they need, and when they run out, what happens next? i don't want to even imagine that. today, we are sitting on a warm office, thank god, and the air strike on kyiv was repulsed because our air defence forces have enough missiles to take down what flies in, but when they run out, then what? i mean, we count losses every day and if the help stops, the losses would be impossible to count. and what would you say then to american politicians right now who are arguing about whether ukraine should get more money? what would you say also to our viewers who might think, well, it's gone on for a long time, it doesn't look like ukraine is able to win, maybe there needs to be a different way of trying to work this out? translation: i think there is a big problem in the world overall. - they are used to the world appearing calm. in fact — and that's what we've been saying for the past two years now — the aggression that is not stopped spreads like a virus. it starts a chain reaction that does not stop. there are many destructive powers in the world waiting for when they can act. when they see that the reaction of large organisations that should protect peace is weak, and that those organisations merely express their concern that an aggressor is not stopped swiftly, that chain reaction continues. the mayor of kyiv recently warned that the president was in danger of becoming an autocrat, that somehow the country was being run on the whims of one man. what do you say to that? it's a serious criticism from a prominent figure. translation: i would like to advise to anyone who speaks publicly - to think what consequences it's going to have for the morale of the ukrainians. everyone should do their own job. the mayor of kyiv has plenty of duties and he really needs to pay attention to them. it's very much needed. the pressure on you and your husband and your whole family has been so enormous. has the war changed your husband? translation: it seems to me you can see it even by his looks. _ no one is getting any younger. he does get tired. it's physically noticeable. but he has the strength to carry on, luckily. yes, it's hard for him, like to each of us, but he is in the exact place he needs to be. i'm confident in this. and just lastly, christmas is, you know, such a time ofjoy and hope, traditionally. will you be able to have anything like a normal zelensky family christmas this year? are there any particular traditions that you look forward to? translation: i'm not sure that we'll | be able to do everything we're used| to doing at christmas. one tradition which will definitely be fulfilled is to give gifts to our children. it is a difficult task. i cannot really go anywhere, even to the shops, but fortunately there are online shops, so to be honest i spend lots of time now scrolling the feeds, looking for what i can get as gifts. we will definitely have gifts but unfortunately i can't tell you how we're going to give them to each other. first lady, thank you so much indeed for speaking to us again. it's been such a pleasure. translation: thank you very much. on tuesday, keir starmer hopes to make the most of this moment and proclaim labour is ready to serve. liz kendall, from his top team, is here. welcome to you. thank you. what does he mean by read to thank you. what does he mean by ready to serve _ thank you. what does he mean by ready to serve when _ thank you. what does he mean by ready to serve when it _ thank you. what does he mean by ready to serve when it comes - thank you. what does he mean by ready to serve when it comes to i ready to serve when it comes to migration. your colleague darren jones holders you wanted net migration of around 200,000 people a year. would you believe that the government's proposal to raise the salary threshold of people coming here up to £38,000, is that the right one?— here up to £38,000, is that the riaht one? , ., , ., right one? many of the things that the government _ right one? many of the things that the government has _ right one? many of the things that the government has put _ right one? many of the things that the government has put forward . the government has put forward on raising the salary threshold, removing the 20% deduction on the shortage occupation list, are things we have called for, but, look, i have to say i found it quite astonishing on your programme today. we've got three different conservative ministers saying three completely different things about the rwanda bill on illegal migration and it really does feel like the desperate dying days of this government and labour understands that this is a serious issue dealing with the dangerous boats. it's serious for our national security and because of the potential number of lives being lost, so we need a proper plan to deal with that and my concern is that this endless merry—go—round of bills being put forward by the government means we are not going to deal with an issue which is really important for the country and that the public feels there is a serious issue. keir starmer _ there is a serious issue. keir starmer is — there is a serious issue. keir starmer is saying _ there is a serious issue. keir starmer is saying this - there is a serious issue. keir starmer is saying this week you are ready to serve, so if you would serve, is asking people to have a minimum income of £38,000 to bring family members here, is that the right kind of level? has family members here, is that the right kind of level?— right kind of level? as i've said, we've called _ right kind of level? as i've said, we've called for— right kind of level? as i've said, we've called for the _ right kind of level? as i've said, we've called for the salary - we've called for the salary threshold to be increased, we'd like the migration advisory committee to publish the evidence so we can see that in detail, but i think that the hole at the heart of the migration plans from this government is that they have failed to deal with the skills and training shortages in this country. we need a plan for immigration that works for our economy so we can have a managed and controlled system, and under the conservatives, and robertjenrick was railing about this, net migration has trebled under this parliament and the problem, because this is the root cause of the issue, is that we need to make sure people in this country have the right skills and training and the government's proposals are completely lacking in that basic plan to get people in this country the skills and training they need. there is an important element of this plan and you have said labour agrees that the threshold of income which people need to earn to bring family members here, which is currently £18,000, you say labour agrees it should go up. his £38,000 the right kind of level? the archbishop of canterbury told the house of lords this week it would result in people being prevented from living with family members, they will be separated if they don't have the money, so i'll ask again, is £38,000 a level that labour thinks is the right one? taste is £38,000 a level that labour thinks is the right one? we have called for that _ thinks is the right one? we have called for that to _ thinks is the right one? we have called for that to increase. - thinks is the right one? we have called for that to increase. we i thinks is the right one? we have i called for that to increase. we have said to the government that it's wrong to be able to be paying people 20% left if they are in the shortage occupation lists, but the key thing we are calling for, laura, is a real plan to deal with those skills shortages force like you said the salary threshold, increasing that is part of this plan. and what we would like to see... but part of this plan. and what we would like to see- - -— like to see... but you won't give us a level, like to see... but you won't give us a level. so — like to see... but you won't give us a level, so keir— like to see... but you won't give us a level, so keir starmer— like to see... but you won't give us a level, so keir starmer is - like to see... but you won't give us a level, so keir starmer is going i like to see... but you won't give us a level, so keir starmer is going to| a level, so keir starmer is going to make a big speech on tuesday until our view is that labour is ready to serve but on this important policy you are not ready to say what the policy would be. taste you are not ready to say what the policy would be— policy would be. we are ready to serve and _ policy would be. we are ready to serve and our — policy would be. we are ready to serve and our policy _ policy would be. we are ready to serve and our policy for - policy would be. we are ready to serve and our policy for a - policy would be. we are ready to i serve and our policy for a managed and controlled migration system is based on the key issue here which is we do not want a migration system thatis we do not want a migration system that is used as a sort of alternative, or to plug the gaps because we are not dealing with the skills and training issues in this country. you will know, laura, that engineers have been on the shortage occupation list for ten years, nurses for even longer. the government has onlyjust put construction workers, roof tilers, plasterers, on the shortage occupation list. taste plasterers, on the shortage occupation list.— plasterers, on the shortage occuation list. . ., ., ., ,, occupation list. we are not talking about the list _ occupation list. we are not talking about the list here, _ occupation list. we are not talking about the list here, we _ occupation list. we are not talking about the list here, we are - occupation list. we are not talking about the list here, we are talking about the list here, we are talking about a specific proposal on salary levels. �* , ., , ., levels. i'm trying to explain labour's — levels. i'm trying to explain labour's plan _ levels. i'm trying to explain labour's plan on _ levels. i'm trying to explain labour's plan on this - levels. i'm trying to explain labour's plan on this which| levels. i'm trying to explain . labour's plan on this which has called for an increase in the salary threshold. but called for an increase in the salary threshold. �* , ., ., �* , called for an increase in the salary threshold. �* ., �* , ., threshold. but you won't tell us how hiuh threshold. but you won't tell us how high should — threshold. but you won't tell us how high should go. _ threshold. but you won't tell us how high should go, you've _ threshold. but you won't tell us how high should go, you've made - threshold. but you won't tell us how high should go, you've made that i high should go, you've made that clear. ~ �* ~ high should go, you've made that clear. ~ �* ,, ., , clear. we'd like to see the migration _ clear. we'd like to see the migration of _ clear. we'd like to see the migration of advisory - clear. we'd like to see the - migration of advisory committee set out the evidence and to really work to say you have to have those skills plans in return and you will know, laura, i used to work on the issue of social care, where we've seen a huge increase, and what is the government done? cut the budget for the social care workforce in half. you have got to have a proper plan and that's what keir and yvette cooper have been proposing. you've not said what _ cooper have been proposing. you've not said what level _ cooper have been proposing. you've not said what level the _ cooper have been proposing. you've not said what level the family - cooper have been proposing. you've not said what level the family visasl not said what level the family visas are set, this is important, because people want to live with their elderly relatives and spouses but you will not give us the figure. we've heard from robertjenrick that migration is far too high, your leader has said migration is shockingly high, does labour also agree with robertjenrick that levels are so high, integration, bringing people together, is impossible?— bringing people together, is imossible? ., ., �* , , impossible? no, i don't. i see in my own ci , impossible? no, i don't. i see in my own city, leicester, _ impossible? no, i don't. i see in my own city, leicester, a _ impossible? no, i don't. i see in my own city, leicester, a very - impossible? no, i don't. i see in my own city, leicester, a very diverse l own city, leicester, a very diverse city, that we have for decades worked extremely hard to bring people together and see their common humanity and the contribution people bring and make, but we do want to see those numbers coming down. but let me take a step back here. that migration has trebled under this government, on their watch, migration has trebled under this government, on theirwatch, because they haven't put their proper plan in place —— net migration has trebled under this government. i don't take anyjoy trebled under this government. i don't take any joy from trebled under this government. i don't take anyjoy from this chaos that we see. there are serious issues in this country to deal with, notjust issues in this country to deal with, not just the issues in this country to deal with, notjust the issues you are discussing today, but the cost of living, coming up to christmas people are desperately worried about how they're going to afford to have christmas and pay the bills in the new year, the state of the nhs, with 7.8 million people on waiting lists, and the conservative party today ripping itself apart more about who is going to lead their party in future that who is going to leave the country, and i don't actually take any joy the country, and i don't actually take anyjoy in that. in my own constituency, constituents are desperately struggling, i've got more than a third of children growing up in poverty in leicester and we need a government that's focused on those issues rather than its own future, which is what i'm afraid we've seen laid bare on the show today. liz afraid we've seen laid bare on the show today-— afraid we've seen laid bare on the show today. liz kendall, thank you for “oininu show today. liz kendall, thank you forjoining us— show today. liz kendall, thank you forjoining us in — show today. liz kendall, thank you forjoining us in the _ show today. liz kendall, thank you forjoining us in the studio - show today. liz kendall, thank you forjoining us in the studio this - forjoining us in the studio this morning, i'm sure you'll be back soon. the political choice has been made to bring forward a bill which doesn't do the job and i think that at this moment, when you've got a small boats crisis, where111t,000 people have crossed the channel on dangerous, unnecessary, illegal small boats, that we cannot take that risk. well, that was robertjenrick talking about migration there, we got into a bit tangle, our robot cameras had minds of their own this morning, but let's have a closing conversation with our panel. it's going to be a busy week. what do you think is going to be worse for the prime minister, the vote on tuesday or his appearance at the covert inquiry tomorrow —— the covid inquiry tomorrow —— the covid inquiry tomorrow? the inquiry tomorrow -- the covid inquiry tomorrow?— inquiry tomorrow -- the covid inquiry tomorrow? the covid inquiry, --eole inquiry tomorrow? the covid inquiry, people have — inquiry tomorrow? the covid inquiry, people have made _ inquiry tomorrow? the covid inquiry, people have made up _ inquiry tomorrow? the covid inquiry, people have made up their— inquiry tomorrow? the covid inquiry, people have made up their minds - people have made up their minds already, we saw that with boris johnson, part of that was about him trying to rewrite history but people have made up their minds. they will be difficult questions for rishi sunak because he is not come under the microscope lens in quite the same wayjohnson has, did he get advice on the eat out to help out scheme, was he too gung ho about opening up, one of his senior scientists talked about doctor death, did he know about the parties on the toxic atmosphere in number ten, tuesday is existential, it's about holding his party together. if his party can't stay together over migration it falls apart and they put themselves into a difficult position going into the next election. ., , . , election. how difficult is the osition election. how difficult is the position at _ election. how difficult is the position at the _ election. how difficult is the position at the moment? i election. how difficult is the | position at the moment? it's election. how difficult is the i position at the moment? it's a difficult time, _ position at the moment? it's a difficult time, there _ position at the moment? it's a difficult time, there is - position at the moment? it's a difficult time, there is no - position at the moment? it's a j difficult time, there is no point denying — difficult time, there is no point denying that but the underlying purpose — denying that but the underlying purpose of stopping the boats, of sorting _ purpose of stopping the boats, of sorting out legal migration is an important — sorting out legal migration is an important issue, there are other important — important issue, there are other important issues, the economic outlook— important issues, the economic outlook is — important issues, the economic outlook is improving, we see that labour— outlook is improving, we see that labour have honed their rhetoric tletter— labour have honed their rhetoric better but — labour have honed their rhetoric better but they have no answers, they can't — better but they have no answers, they can't any specific questions so for keir— they can't any specific questions so for keir starmer to make speeches saying _ for keir starmer to make speeches saying they are ready to govern, they are — saying they are ready to govern, they are patently not. bill, saying they are ready to govern, they are patently not.— saying they are ready to govern, they are patently not. bill, what do ou think they are patently not. bill, what do you think make _ they are patently not. bill, what do you think make of— they are patently not. bill, what do you think make of politics - they are patently not. bill, what do you think make of politics in - they are patently not. bill, what do you think make of politics in this i you think make of politics in this country? you think make of politics in this count ? �* . . . you think make of politics in this count ? �*, ., , ., ., you think make of politics in this count ? ., ., ,, you think make of politics in this count ? ., ., country? it's a bit of a mess but let me just _ country? it's a bit of a mess but let me just point _ country? it's a bit of a mess but let me just point out _ country? it's a bit of a mess but let me just point out something j let me just point out something you didn't— let me just point out something you didn't mention _ let me just point out something you didn't mention on _ let me just point out something you didn't mention on the _ let me just point out something you didn't mention on the show, - let me just point out something you didn't mention on the show, which. let me just point out something youl didn't mention on the show, which is that the _ didn't mention on the show, which is that the foreign _ didn't mention on the show, which is that the foreign secretary _ didn't mention on the show, which is that the foreign secretary david - that the foreign secretary david cameron— that the foreign secretary david cameron made _ that the foreign secretary david cameron made a _ that the foreign secretary david cameron made a very, - that the foreign secretary david cameron made a very, very- that the foreign secretary david - cameron made a very, very important announcement — cameron made a very, very important announcement which _ cameron made a very, very important announcement which didn't _ cameron made a very, very important announcement which didn't get - cameron made a very, very important announcement which didn't get a - cameron made a very, very important announcement which didn't get a lot i announcement which didn't get a lot of press, _ announcement which didn't get a lot of press, which _ announcement which didn't get a lot of press, which was _ announcement which didn't get a lot of press, which was as _ announcement which didn't get a lot of press, which was as we _ announcement which didn't get a lot of press, which was as we heard - announcement which didn't get a lot| of press, which was as we heard how ukraine _ of press, which was as we heard how ukraine is— of press, which was as we heard how ukraine is worried _ of press, which was as we heard how ukraine is worried about _ of press, which was as we heard how ukraine is worried about being - of press, which was as we heard how ukraine is worried about being cut. ukraine is worried about being cut off, he _ ukraine is worried about being cut off, he came _ ukraine is worried about being cut off, he came up— ukraine is worried about being cut off, he came up with— ukraine is worried about being cut off, he came up with an _ ukraine is worried about being cut off, he came up with an idea - ukraine is worried about being cut| off, he came up with an idea which is that— off, he came up with an idea which is that we — off, he came up with an idea which is that we have _ off, he came up with an idea which is that we have throws _ off, he came up with an idea which is that we have throws and - is that we have throws and $350 billion_ is that we have throws and $350 billion of— is that we have throws and $350 billion of russian _ is that we have throws and $350 billion of russian central- is that we have throws and $350 billion of russian central bank. billion of russian central bank reserves — billion of russian central bank reserves at _ billion of russian central bank reserves at the _ billion of russian central bank reserves at the beginning - billion of russian central bank reserves at the beginning of. billion of russian central bank. reserves at the beginning of the war, _ reserves at the beginning of the war. that — reserves at the beginning of the war, that money— reserves at the beginning of the war, that money should - reserves at the beginning of the war, that money should be - war, that money should be confiscated _ war, that money should be confiscated and _ war, that money should be confiscated and given - war, that money should be confiscated and given to i war, that money should be - confiscated and given to ukraine to defend _ confiscated and given to ukraine to defend themselves— confiscated and given to ukraine to defend themselves and _ confiscated and given to ukraine to defend themselves and that - confiscated and given to ukraine to defend themselves and that got. defend themselves and that got missed — defend themselves and that got missed try— defend themselves and that got missed by all— defend themselves and that got missed by all the _ defend themselves and that got missed by all the news - defend themselves and that got missed by all the news but- defend themselves and that goti missed by all the news but that's one of— missed by all the news but that's one of the — missed by all the news but that's one of the great _ missed by all the news but that's one of the great things _ missed by all the news but that's one of the great things this - one of the great things this government— one of the great things this government has— one of the great things this government has done - one of the great things this government has done thisi one of the great things this i government has done this last one of the great things this - government has done this last week. do you _ government has done this last week. do you think— government has done this last week. do you think the _ government has done this last week. do you think the chances _ government has done this last week. do you think the chances that - government has done this last week. do you think the chances that will- do you think the chances that will happen? do you think the chances that will ha en? . . do you think the chances that will ha en? ., , ., ., , , do you think the chances that will hauen? ., , ., ., , ,., happen? that is real leadership and it's something _ happen? that is real leadership and it's something that _ happen? that is real leadership and it's something that should - happen? that is real leadership and it's something that should have - it's something that should have happened — it's something that should have happened a _ it's something that should have happened a long _ it's something that should have happened a long time - it's something that should have happened a long time ago - it's something that should have happened a long time ago and i it's something that should have i happened a long time ago and the fact he _ happened a long time ago and the fact he made _ happened a long time ago and the fact he made it _ happened a long time ago and the fact he made it public— happened a long time ago and the fact he made it public last- happened a long time ago and the fact he made it public last week. happened a long time ago and the fact he made it public last week isj fact he made it public last week is something — fact he made it public last week is something i— fact he made it public last week is something i can _ fact he made it public last week is something i can applaud - fact he made it public last week is something i can applaud in - fact he made it public last week is something i can applaud in the . fact he made it public last week is i something i can applaud in the midst of all this— something i can applaud in the midst of all this other— something i can applaud in the midst of all this other nonsense. _ something i can applaud in the midst of all this other nonsense. [it’s - of all this other nonsense. it's nice to have — of all this other nonsense. nice to have something of all this other nonsense. it“: nice to have something to of all this other nonsense.- nice to have something to end of all this other nonsense- nice to have something to end our programme with something to applaud. i applaud you three for coming and giving your insights this morning. damian, paperand bill, thank you, and thank you for watching. it's a busy week, the prime minister at the covid inquiry of the first commons vote on their under plans on tuesday. the divisions and disagreements in the governing party that's been in charge for more than a decade are once again absolutely plain for all to see and i wonder if rishi sunak's unique selling point of creating calm seems to have passed its sell by date for some in his own party. in a few minutes i'll bejoining paddy his own party. in a few minutes i'll be joining paddy o'connell for this sunday's newscast, you can subscribe to that later on bbc sounds. you can watch our programme again on iplayer if you so desire or i will see you next sunday for a lower last show of 2023, can you believe it, it's been quite a year. until then, i'll see you next week, same time, same place, goodbye. live from jerusalem. this is bbc news. israel tells residents to leave the centre of the southern gazan city of khan younis as it becomes the focus of its offensive. the world health organization says the war in gaza is having a catastrophic impact on health care there. i'm devina gupta, in london. also in the programme... another blow for prime minister rishi sunak — former immigration minister robert jenrick says his rwanda plan in unworkable. i'm afraid it's very clear to all those people who really understand how the system operates that this will not succeed. a huge fossil of a 150—million—year—old sea creature has been uncovered from cliffs on the south coast of england. hello, you are watching bbc news. i am a mark foster injerusalem. israel has ordered residents to leave the centre of the gaza strip 5 main southern city of khan younis and there 5 been heavy bombardment of the territory overnight. the head of the israeli army has called for the military campaign in gaza to be stepped up. meanwhile, israeli tanks are reported to be slowly advancing towards the centre of khan younis, as intense battles continue in southern gaza.

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