that is also true. they can't both be right. well. _ that is also true. they can't both be right. well, sometimes - that is also true. they can't both be right. well, sometimes you l that is also true. they can't both l be right. well, sometimes you can that is also true. they can't both - be right. well, sometimes you can do thins be right. well, sometimes you can do thin . s that be right. well, sometimes you can do things that you _ be right. well, sometimes you can do things that you think _ be right. well, sometimes you can do things that you think are _ things that you think are constitutionally a bit weird. if it will help— constitutionally a bit weird. if it will help the general because of fighting — will help the general because of fighting the pandemic. let me summarise, i think there is an issue — summarise, i think there is an issue it — summarise, i think there is an issue it is _ summarise, i think there is an issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as— issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as big — issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as big as— issue. it is not a huge, huge issue. not as big as the other issues that the inquiry— not as big as the other issues that the inquiry needs to look at but we need _ the inquiry needs to look at but we need to— the inquiry needs to look at but we need to sort it out, we need a better— need to sort it out, we need a better way— need to sort it out, we need a better way to get a unified message for the _ better way to get a unified message for the uk — better way to get a unified message for the uk. mr better way to get a unified message for the uk. ~ g ., better way to get a unified message forthe uk. ~ g. i. better way to get a unified message forthe uk. ~ �* for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't t ve for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard. _ for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard. to — for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard, to use _ for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard, to use your- for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't try very hard, to use your words, i for the uk. mrjohnson, you didn't. try very hard, to use your words, to bring the das with you, because you took the view that, optically, it was wrong to be seen to be meeting with their first ministers because it might look like, to use your words, a mini eu. you ask the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster michael gove to chair the meetings instead and you made it quite clear to the first ministers of the devolved administrations that you had taken the view that they were prone to leaking from the cobra meetings and also prone to taking decisions in this public health crisis for nakedly political reasons. crisis for nakedly political reasuns-_ crisis for nakedly political reasons. �* ., . ., ., reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in — reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so _ reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so many _ reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so many words, - reasons. i'm not certain i said that to them in so many words, maybe | reasons. i'm not certain i said that - to them in so many words, maybe you have some _ to them in so many words, maybe you have some evidence that i did. i certainly— have some evidence that i did. i certainly thought that was a risk, and from — certainly thought that was a risk, and from time to time i felt that the coherence of the uk message was bein- the coherence of the uk message was being undermined and there has to be a way— being undermined and there has to be a way to— being undermined and there has to be a way to fix— being undermined and there has to be a way to fix it. i thought michael huht _ a way to fix it. i thought michael huht did — a way to fix it. i thought michael hunt did an excellentjob. i sometimes wonder whether i could have done — sometimes wonder whether i could have done more in that respect myself— have done more in that respect myself but, frankly, i doubt it. there — myself but, frankly, i doubt it. there were obviously divergences of approach with regard to the substantive responses, tiers, fire breakers, circuit breakers, what was donein breakers, circuit breakers, what was done in relation to schools and so on. and also public communications, the messaging across the united kingdom was not always pointing in the same direction. ultimately, did it matter that there were those differences of approach, epidemiologically, or in terms of communication we were not all singing from the same hymn sheet? i singing from the same hymn sheet? i think it did matter, i think clarity and unity— think it did matter, i think clarity and unity of message was very important. and unity of message was very important-— and unity of message was very imortant. ., , ., , important. dato, plainly the united kinudom important. dato, plainly the united kingdom government _ important. dato, plainly the united kingdom government was, - important. dato, plainly the united kingdom government was, where i important. dato, plainly the united| kingdom government was, where it could, taking decisions in relation to what should be happening in each of the four nations of the united kingdom —— das, plainly. not in public health terms but trying to apply an ally turned unanimous approach. did you feel that you as the prime minister of the united kingdom government had sufficient data, sufficient scientific advice, as to the position on the ground in each of the other nations, epidemiologically? i each of the other nations, epidemiologically?- each of the other nations, epidemiologically? each of the other nations, eidemiolouicall ? ~ ., epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic— epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke _ epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, _ epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, we - epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, we did - epidemiologically? i think that when the pandemic broke out, we did not| the pandemic broke out, we did not even _ the pandemic broke out, we did not even know. — the pandemic broke out, we did not even know. i— the pandemic broke out, we did not even know, i think i said, the number— even know, i think i said, the number of— even know, i think i said, the number of beds in the nhs and it tooka— number of beds in the nhs and it took a long time to distract relevant _ took a long time to distract relevant data.— took a long time to distract relevant data. . , ., ., relevant data. there was a general continuin: relevant data. there was a general continuing concern _ relevant data. there was a general continuing concern raised - relevant data. there was a general continuing concern raised with - relevant data. there was a general continuing concern raised with you | continuing concern raised with you because mr chen wrote to you in september 2020 —— because nicola sturgeon wrote to you in september 2020 about whether the devolved administrations were receiving another financial —— enough financial support, because they do not have access to the same levers physical power as the uk government. how was that result, or did it continue throughout the crisis? the issue of financial support was obviously allied with the issue of divergences of approach. clearly if it was— divergences of approach. clearly if it was open to a da to take, for instance. — it was open to a da to take, for instance. a _ it was open to a da to take, for instance, a much more precautionary approach _ instance, a much more precautionary approach or— instance, a much more precautionary approach or say they wanted to do xyz policy— approach or say they wanted to do xyz policy that would be more expensive, then that was something that the _ expensive, then that was something that the whole of the uk exchequer was going _ that the whole of the uk exchequer was going to have to cover. now, it was going to have to cover. now, it was hot _ was going to have to cover. now, it was hot that— was going to have to cover. now, it was not that i wanted unity of message _ was not that i wanted unity of message for that reason, but that was certainly an extra complication. in was certainly an extra complication. in his _ was certainly an extra complication. in his statement, michael gove says in the early stages of the response there were times when insufficient notice was given to the devolved administrations of decisions to be taken, and ms sturgeon said in her witness statement, i believe that communication should have been better and more importantly that devolved administration should have been integral to decision—making. would you accept, perhaps with hindsight, that the decision—making process was not as good as it might have been?— process was not as good as it might have been? ., ., ., have been? some form of integrated decision-making _ have been? some form of integrated decision-making but _ have been? some form of integrated decision-making but doesn't - have been? some form of integrated decision-making but doesn't leak - have been? some form of integrated decision-making but doesn't leak is l decision—making but doesn't leak is what you _ decision—making but doesn't leak is what you are after, i think. local government. _ what you are after, i think. local government, it _ what you are after, i think. local government, it would _ what you are after, i think. local government, it would seem - what you are after, i think. local government, it would seem that| what you are after, i think. local government, it would seem that in march 2020 there was a deliberate decision in downing street not to invite the mayor of london to meetings until the 16th of march. he says he made repeated requests to attend, he requested to attend cobra on the second, ninth and 12th of march but was not permitted to do so. did you know that and do you agree with that?— so. did you know that and do you agree with that? certainly london was ve , agree with that? certainly london was very. very — agree with that? certainly london was very, very much _ agree with that? certainly london was very, very much at _ agree with that? certainly london was very, very much at the - agree with that? certainly london i was very, very much at the forefront in the _ was very, very much at the forefront in the early— was very, very much at the forefront in the early stages of the pandemic, i in the early stages of the pandemic, i know— in the early stages of the pandemic, i know the _ in the early stages of the pandemic, i know the mayor of london was repeatedly consulted by advisers in number— repeatedly consulted by advisers in number ten. repeatedly consulted by advisers in numberten. there repeatedly consulted by advisers in number ten. there was a lot of traffic— number ten. there was a lot of traffic between them and sadiq khan. i traffic between them and sadiq khan. ithink. _ traffic between them and sadiq khan. i think, from traffic between them and sadiq khan. ithink, from memory, he was traffic between them and sadiq khan. i think, from memory, he was invited to a meeting — i think, from memory, he was invited to a meeting on the 16th, but i certainly— to a meeting on the 16th, but i certainly spoke with him pretty early _ certainly spoke with him pretty early on. — certainly spoke with him pretty early on, but right at the end of the last— early on, but right at the end of the last session, as you said then, we thought— the last session, as you said then, we thought we might begin with london — we thought we might begin with london first but we dropped that. the mayor— london first but we dropped that. the mayor of london was not invited to the government's formal crisis machinery, cobra, after the first national measures had been imposed, is that right?— is that right? because in the end we did not do london _ is that right? because in the end we did not do london first _ is that right? because in the end we did not do london first measures, . did not do london first measures, and there — did not do london first measures, and there was some sensitivity about other— and there was some sensitivity about other metro mayors. | and there was some sensitivity about other metro mayors.— other metro mayors. i think it relation to — other metro mayors. i think it relation to the _ other metro mayors. i think it relation to the metro - other metro mayors. i think iti relation to the metro mayors, other metro mayors. i think it - relation to the metro mayors, save on one occasion, october 12, when the mayor of liverpool, and you rather run, attended, no metro mayor was invited to attend cobra at any time. —— the mayor of liverpool, andy rotherham. the evidence from sadiq khan, andy burnham and andy rotherham was insufficient information is generally given to local leaders. and in the context of the local restrictions in the summer of 2020 and of course the tier system in october and december of 2020, that was a very significant feeling, was it not?— feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful _ feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful to _ feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful to andy _ feeling, was it not? first of all, i am grateful to andy rotherham, i feeling, was it not? first of all, i- am grateful to andy rotherham, andy burnham, _ am grateful to andy rotherham, andy burnham, sadiq khan, or of the mayors— burnham, sadiq khan, or of the mayors for— burnham, sadiq khan, or of the mayors for the work that they did and the _ mayors for the work that they did and the leadership they gave to their— and the leadership they gave to their own — and the leadership they gave to their own communities. you talk about— their own communities. you talk about andy— their own communities. you talk about andy burnham, several parts of the country _ about andy burnham, several parts of the country barely came out of measures— the country barely came out of measures for the whole of the year. manchester. measures for the whole of the year. manchester-— manchester. exactly. they had a ve , manchester. exactly. they had a very. very _ manchester. exactly. they had a very. very tough _ manchester. exactly. they had a very, very tough time. _ manchester. exactly. they had a very, very tough time. we - manchester. exactly. they had a very, very tough time. we did i manchester. exactly. they had a. very, very tough time. we did our best— very, very tough time. we did our best to _ very, very tough time. we did our best to offer support and engage with them and help, but some of the negotiations, as i am sure we will come _ negotiations, as i am sure we will come to, — negotiations, as i am sure we will come to, were extremely difficult. one of— come to, were extremely difficult. one of sir— come to, were extremely difficult. one of sir patrick vallance's entries appears to suggest that in relation to manchester and mr burnham, a covid meeting at which you were present openly drew a distinction between the support and measures that would be given to manchester as opposed to liverpool for nakedly political reasons. would you agree? did that happen? i am for nakedly political reasons. would you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there — you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there is _ you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there is a _ you agree? did that happen? i am not certain there is a conservative - certain there is a conservative mayor — certain there is a conservative mayor of _ certain there is a conservative mayor of liverpool. a certain there is a conservative mayor of liverpool.— certain there is a conservative mayor of liverpool. a view was taken u on the mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature _ mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature of— mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature of the _ mayor of liverpool. a view was taken upon the nature of the local - upon the nature of the local leadership in manchester and davy was taken about how cooperative... oh, i see. was taken about how cooperative... oh, isee. therefore was taken about how cooperative... oh, i see. therefore manchester would be treated differently to liverpool. i would be treated differently to liverool. ., �* , ., ., liverpool. i don't remember that at all. i liverpool. i don't remember that at all- i think — liverpool. i don't remember that at all. ithinkthat_ liverpool. i don't remember that at all. i think that liverpool _ all. i think that liverpool certainly was... the people of liverpool— certainly was... the people of liverpool were heroic in trying to -et liverpool were heroic in trying to get mass — liverpool were heroic in trying to get mass testing going and, again, there _ get mass testing going and, again, there was— get mass testing going and, again, there was a — get mass testing going and, again, there was a true hardship because of there was a true hardship because of the lockdowns but they were vital to the lockdowns but they were vital to the campaign to get mass testing going _ the campaign to get mass testing anoin. . ., the campaign to get mass testing aoian.�* ., , ., the campaign to get mass testing aoain.�* ., , ., ,, going. another separate issue, . lease, going. another separate issue, please. the _ going. another separate issue, please, the consideration - going. another separate issue, please, the consideration of. please, the consideration of vulnerable and at—risk groups and you will appreciate that on account of your position as prime minister, many of these issues would only perhaps fittingly have come to your attention and only at the highest possible level, therefore there is a distinct restriction on the detail into which we can go in debating them. helen macnamara, in her statement, makes this general point, that of course the advice and discussions and cabinet office in the heart of government there was a striking absence of humanity or perspective about how people or families actually lived —— that a cross at the advice and discussions. her sense was that the group of people in your inner coterie and the cabinet most homogenous group of people and were taking decisions that probably called for a much broader representation across society. would you agree with a general proposition? i society. would you agree with a general proposition?— society. would you agree with a general proposition? i think there is some force _ general proposition? i think there is some force in _ general proposition? i think there is some force in that. _ general proposition? i think there is some force in that. some - general proposition? i think there is some force in that. some force | general proposition? i think there l is some force in that. some force in the description of the people in and around _ the description of the people in and around those meetings at some of those _ around those meetings at some of those key— around those meetings at some of those key times. i do not accept what _ those key times. i do not accept what helen says about the measures we took, _ what helen says about the measures we took, she said some things, i pay tribute _ we took, she said some things, i pay tribute to— we took, she said some things, i pay tribute to helen, she did an amazing 'ob, tribute to helen, she did an amazing job, but— tribute to helen, she did an amazing job, but i_ tribute to helen, she did an amazing job, but i think it is not right or fair to— job, but i think it is not right or fair to say— job, but i think it is not right or fair to say that policy was conceived and driven forward without regard _ conceived and driven forward without regard to _ concei