around the government's plans to send some asylum seekers to rwanda, which you remember faced a send some asylum seekers to rwanda, which you rememberfaced a number of legal challenges as soon as they were introduced more than a year and a half ago. the government is expected to introduce a bill that ministers say it will aim to block the legal challenges. there is debate within the conservative party about how far that bill should go, what that bill should include. the first thing is, suella braverman saying, it must come in her view, to supply the european convention on human rights. the second thing, suella braverman was sacked by rishi sunak as home secretary and since then she has really been seen as a potential flag then she has really been seen as a potentialflag bearer then she has really been seen as a potential flag bearer for the then she has really been seen as a potentialflag bearerfor the right potential flag bearer for the right of potentialflag bearerfor the right of the conservative party who want to see tougher action on migration, want to see the prime minister going further to get their plans to send some asylum seekers to rwanda up and running. i think this is part of her setting out her stall to be that flag bearerfor the right of setting out her stall to be that flag bearer for the right of the conservative party and potentially a future conservative leader. in conservative party and potentially a future conservative leader. in doing so does she — future conservative leader. in doing so does she exacerbate _ future conservative leader. in doing so does she exacerbate divisions i so does she exacerbate divisions within the party? do you think this is an early bid for leadership, her own leadership running up to the next election, which, by the way, she mentioned? the next election, which, by the way, she mentioned?— next election, which, by the way, she mentioned? the divisions in the conservative — she mentioned? the divisions in the conservative party _ she mentioned? the divisions in the conservative party on _ she mentioned? the divisions in the conservative party on this _ she mentioned? the divisions in the conservative party on this issue - she mentioned? the divisions in the conservative party on this issue in i conservative party on this issue in particular are very real and very deep. other conservative mp said last night, if the government did to supply the european convention on human rights, go against its commitment to human rights, that would be a red line for them and a lot of ministers are deeply concerned about that prospect. so the divisions within the conservative party are very real, particularly on this issue about how far this bill should go to try and prevent the legal challenges to their plan to send some asylum seekers to rwanda. we are expecting that bill, ministers say, shortly. thank you very much indeed, harry farley from westminster and outlining the main points suella braverman�*s speech. she is the former home secretary and was fired by the current prime minister, rishi sunak. herspeech by the current prime minister, rishi sunak. her speech was primarily centred on the subject of migration. you are watching bbc news. let's return now to the other ongoing story, which is attracting a great deal of attention. the former uk prime minister borisjohnson has been giving evidence to the uk covid inquiry this morning. this afternoon, this is one of two days he will be giving evidence. he has admitted to the covid inquiry he should have tweaked, he put it, how serious the virus was sooner than he did. he also began to realise as soon as he saw footage from italy, which rattled him. he defended not sharing five cobra meetings in early 2020 saying the virus seem to be a cloud on the horizon. here is ali price. to summarise what we seem to be hearing recently in the last hour or so, be hearing recently in the last hour orso, perhaps be hearing recently in the last hour or so, perhaps a be hearing recently in the last hour orso, perhaps a bit be hearing recently in the last hour or so, perhaps a bit more, be hearing recently in the last hour orso, perhaps a bit more, is be hearing recently in the last hour or so, perhaps a bit more, is a description about what happened at the beginning of the pandemic when decisions were being made about restrictions. what can we glean about this change of track by the prime minister? i about this change of track by the prime minister?— prime minister? i think what has been interesting _ prime minister? i think what has been interesting today _ prime minister? i think what has been interesting today has - prime minister? i think what has been interesting today has been| prime minister? i think what has . been interesting today has been the tone about what was going on in those early few months about taking the virus seriously enough and indeed what action needed to be taken because of it. what was interesting, in the last hour we have had borisjohnson felt mass gatherings should have been cancelled area or banned earlier. you may remember he appeared at a rugby match in early march where england beat wales at twickenham. he was seen in the crowd there and then a week later there was the cheltenham festival, the racing festival. he said he felt he shouldn't necessary have listened to the scientific advice. the scientific advice at the time was those mass gatherings could go ahead. we heard from professor sir chris whitty last week, he said he felt that advice was probably wrong. not because there's necessarily massive possibility the virus would spread because of those mass gatherings, but the message it sent out. we heard from borisjohnson today kind of agreeing with that. it is the mixed messaging that made the government not seem like it was taking it seriously enough. we are joined now by a couple of people... just to be clear, his argument was, if you don't allow this mass gatherings to go ahead, what will happen is people will collect in other environments which will be more dangerous?— other environments which will be more dangerous? absolutely right. it seaks to more dangerous? absolutely right. it speaks to the — more dangerous? absolutely right. it speaks to the broader _ more dangerous? absolutely right. it speaks to the broader point - more dangerous? absolutely right. it speaks to the broader point he - more dangerous? absolutely right. it speaks to the broader point he has i speaks to the broader point he has been making this afternoon. it wasn't as straightforward as just banning things. he have to take into account all the other parts to it, if you like, the impact on the economy for example and the impact on what people would do instead. let's bring in a couple of people who have been watching this afternoon. you have been here because he very sadly lost people during the pandemic. it has been a big day, larry byrne, what have you heard from borisjohnson this morning and this afternoon, anything that has changed your mind on what happened? ida. that has changed your mind on what ha ened? ., , that has changed your mind on what hauened? ., , ., , happened? no, sadly. i have “ust been listening i happened? no, sadly. i have “ust been listening to i happened? no, sadly. i have “ust been listening to more i happened? no, sadly. i havejust been listening to more evidencel been listening to more evidence given— been listening to more evidence given that he classed people in care homes _ given that he classed people in care homes as_ given that he classed people in care homes as bed blockers, being taken into hospital and being bed blockers and anybody over the age of 18 years of age _ and anybody over the age of 18 years of age has _ and anybody over the age of 18 years of age has basically had their innings _ of age has basically had their innings. and they've seen the best of life _ innings. and they've seen the best of life and — innings. and they've seen the best of life and should be gone, more or less _ of life and should be gone, more or less i_ of life and should be gone, more or less i feel— of life and should be gone, more or less. i feel totally let down, totally — less. i feel totally let down, totally betrayed by himself and the rest of _ totally betrayed by himself and the rest of the government to think that he partied _ rest of the government to think that he partied and things went on behind closed _ he partied and things went on behind closed doors in number ten downing st. i closed doors in number ten downing st ifeel_ closed doors in number ten downing st ifeei it _ closed doors in number ten downing st. i feel it is the tip of the iceberg _ st. i feel it is the tip of the iceberg-— st. ifeel it is the tip ofthe iceberu. �* ., ., iceberg. amos, you have come from manchester — iceberg. amos, you have come from manchester for _ iceberg. amos, you have come from manchester for this _ iceberg. amos, you have come from manchester for this today. _ iceberg. amos, you have come from manchester for this today. anything | manchester for this today. anything you have heard that has changed your... you are not impressed when he spoke this morning? still unimpressed _ he spoke this morning? still unimpressed is _ he spoke this morning? still unimpressed is a _ he spoke this morning? still unimpressed is a good description to say the _ unimpressed is a good description to say the least — unimpressed is a good description to say the least he _ unimpressed is a good description to say the least. he was _ unimpressed is a good description to say the least. he was trying - unimpressed is a good description to say the least. he was trying to - unimpressed is a good description to say the least. he was trying to say. say the least. he was trying to say that he _ say the least. he was trying to say that he followed, _ say the least. he was trying to say that he followed, and _ say the least. he was trying to say that he followed, and he - say the least. he was trying to say that he followed, and he looked . that he followed, and he looked likely— that he followed, and he looked likely try — that he followed, and he looked likely try to— that he followed, and he looked likely try to choreograph - that he followed, and he looked likely try to choreograph his - likely try to choreograph his evidence _ likely try to choreograph his evidence to _ likely try to choreograph his evidence to fit _ likely try to choreograph his evidence to fit in _ likely try to choreograph his evidence to fit in with - likely try to choreograph his evidence to fit in with the l evidence to fit in with the scientific— evidence to fit in with the scientific evidence - evidence to fit in with the scientific evidence and i evidence to fit in with the - scientific evidence and things about asymptomatic, _ scientific evidence and things about asymptomatic, that _ scientific evidence and things about asymptomatic, that she _ scientific evidence and things about asymptomatic, that she seems- scientific evidence and things about asymptomatic, that she seems to l scientific evidence and things about. asymptomatic, that she seems to be more _ asymptomatic, that she seems to be more about — asymptomatic, that she seems to be more about the _ asymptomatic, that she seems to be more about. the reality— asymptomatic, that she seems to be more about. the reality is, _ asymptomatic, that she seems to be more about. the reality is, although| more about. the reality is, although he said _ more about. the reality is, although he said he _ more about. the reality is, although he said he was— more about. the reality is, although he said he was balancing _ more about. the reality is, although he said he was balancing all- more about. the reality is, although he said he was balancing all these . he said he was balancing all these factors— he said he was balancing all these factors together, _ he said he was balancing all these factors together, the _ he said he was balancing all these factors together, the only- he said he was balancing all these i factors together, the only comments that are _ factors together, the only comments that are recorded _ factors together, the only comments that are recorded and _ factors together, the only comments that are recorded and people - factors together, the only comments that are recorded and people talk - that are recorded and people talk about— that are recorded and people talk about are — that are recorded and people talk about are these _ that are recorded and people talk about are these incredibly- that are recorded and people talk about are these incredibly painful and traumatic— about are these incredibly painful and traumatic comments, - about are these incredibly painful and traumatic comments, like . about are these incredibly painful . and traumatic comments, like larry said, _ and traumatic comments, like larry said. people — and traumatic comments, like larry said. people like _ and traumatic comments, like larry said, people like my— and traumatic comments, like larry said, people like my grandma - and traumatic comments, like larry said, people like my grandma who. and traumatic comments, like larry. said, people like my grandma who had had a _ said, people like my grandma who had had a good _ said, people like my grandma who had had a good innings. _ said, people like my grandma who had had a good innings. the _ said, people like my grandma who had had a good innings. the other- had a good innings. the other comments. _ had a good innings. the other comments, they— had a good innings. the other comments, they are - had a good innings. the other comments, they are just - had a good innings. the other comments, they are just not. had a good innings. the other- comments, they are just not there. where _ comments, they are just not there. where are — comments, they are just not there. where are the _ comments, they are just not there. where are the comments— comments, they are just not there. where are the comments being - where are the comments being recorded — where are the comments being recorded saying _ where are the comments being recorded saying i— where are the comments being recorded saying i am _ where are the comments being recorded saying i am finding. where are the comments being i recorded saying i am finding this hard _ recorded saying i am finding this hard to— recorded saying i am finding this hard to make _ recorded saying i am finding this hard to make this— recorded saying i am finding this hard to make this decision. - recorded saying i am finding this hard to make this decision. it. recorded saying i am finding this hard to make this decision. it isi hard to make this decision. it is not, _ hard to make this decision. it is not. it's— hard to make this decision. it is not. it's like _ hard to make this decision. it is not, it's like he's— hard to make this decision. it is not, it's like he's trying - hard to make this decision. it is not, it's like he's trying to - hard to make this decision. it is| not, it's like he's trying to make that up~ — not, it's like he's trying to make that up~ lots— not, it's like he's trying to make that up. lots of— not, it's like he's trying to make that up. lots of comments - not, it's like he's trying to makel that up. lots of comments about not, it's like he's trying to make - that up. lots of comments about the economy— that up. lots of comments about the economy and — that up. lots of comments about the economy and we _ that up. lots of comments about the economy and we know _ that up. lots of comments about the economy and we know at _ that up. lots of comments about the economy and we know at that - economy and we know at that particular— economy and we know at that particular time, _ economy and we know at that particular time, he _ economy and we know at that particulartime, he hasn't- economy and we know at that. particulartime, he hasn't been asked — particulartime, he hasn't been asked about _ particulartime, he hasn't been asked about this _ particulartime, he hasn't been asked about this this _ particulartime, he hasn't been asked about this this morning, | particular time, he hasn't been. asked about this this morning, but the government— asked about this this morning, but the government was _ asked about this this morning, but the government was focused - asked about this this morning, but the government was focused on i asked about this this morning, but - the government was focused on brexit at the _ the government was focused on brexit at the beginning — the government was focused on brexit at the beginning of— the government was focused on brexit at the beginning of the _ the government was focused on brexit at the beginning of the year, - at the beginning of the year, substantially. _ at the beginning of the year, substantially. he _ at the beginning of the year, substantially. he missed - at the beginning of the year, | substantially. he missed five at the beginning of the year, - substantially. he missed five cobra meetings, _ substantially. he missed five cobra meetings, he — substantially. he missed five cobra meetings, he wasn't _ substantially. he missed five cobra meetings, he wasn't interested - substantially. he missed five cobra meetings, he wasn't interested at. meetings, he wasn't interested at that period — meetings, he wasn't interested at that period and _ meetings, he wasn't interested at that period and the _ meetings, he wasn't interested at that period and the time - meetings, he wasn't interested at that period and the time he - meetings, he wasn't interested at that period and the time he gavel meetings, he wasn't interested at. that period and the time he gave his speech— that period and the time he gave his speech on— that period and the time he gave his speech on the — that period and the time he gave his speech on the fourth _ that period and the time he gave his speech on the fourth or _ that period and the time he gave his speech on the fourth or 5th - that period and the time he gave his speech on the fourth or 5th of - speech on the fourth or 5th of february— speech on the fourth or 5th of february in _ speech on the fourth or 5th of february in greenwich, - speech on the fourth or 5th of february in greenwich, he - speech on the fourth or 5th of| february in greenwich, he was talking — february in greenwich, he was talking about _ february in greenwich, he was talking about some _ february in greenwich, he was talking about some country. february in greenwich, he was. talking about some country taking february in greenwich, he was- talking about some country taking of its clock— talking about some country taking of its clock and — talking about some country taking of its clock and spectacles _ talking about some country taking of its clock and spectacles are - talking about some country taking of its clock and spectacles are not - talking about some country taking of its clock and spectacles are not let . its clock and spectacles are not let the economy— its clock and spectacles are not let the economy suffer. _ its clock and spectacles are not let the economy suffer. that - its clock and spectacles are not let the economy suffer. that was - its clock and spectacles are not let the economy suffer. that was his i the economy suffer. that was his mentality — the economy suffer. that was his mentality and _ the economy suffer. that was his mentality and he's _ the economy suffer. that was his mentality and he's trying - the economy suffer. that was his mentality and he's trying to - mentality and he's trying to retrofit _ mentality and he's trying to retrofit as _ mentality and he's trying to retrofit as evidence - mentality and he's trying to retrofit as evidence looking| mentality and he's trying to - retrofit as evidence looking back at some _ retrofit as evidence looking back at some of— retrofit as evidence looking back at some of the — retrofit as evidence looking back at some of the evidence _ retrofit as evidence looking back at some of the evidence and - retrofit as evidence looking back at some of the evidence and trying i retrofit as evidence looking back at some of the evidence and trying to| some of the evidence and trying to blame _ some of the evidence and trying to blame other— some of the evidence and trying to blame other people. _ some of the evidence and trying to blame other people. he _ some of the evidence and trying to blame other people. he said - some of the evidence and trying to blame other people. he said he i some of the evidence and trying to. blame other people. he said he was going _ blame other people. he said he was going to _ blame other people. he said he was going to apologise _ blame other people. he said he was going to apologise today _ blame other people. he said he was going to apologise today and - blame other people. he said he was going to apologise today and that i going to apologise today and that apology— going to apologise today and that apology has — going to apologise today and that apology has been— going to apologise today and that apology has been so _ going to apologise today and that - apology has been so meaty—mouthed. we don't _ apology has been so meaty—mouthed. we don't know— apology has been so meaty—mouthed. we don't know what _ apology has been so meaty—mouthed. we don't know what he _ apology has been so meaty—mouthed. we don't know what he was— we don't know what he was apologising _ we don't know what he was apologising for— we don't know what he was apologising for and - we don't know what he was apologising for and then . we don't know what he was apologising for and then he j we don't know what he was- apologising for and then he said, it is not _ apologising for and then he said, it is not what — apologising for and then he said, it is not what we _ apologising for and then he said, it is not what we got _ apologising for and then he said, it is not what we got wrong, - apologising for and then he said, it is not what we got wrong, it's - apologising for and then he said, it is not what we got wrong, it's not i is not what we got wrong, it's not really _ is not what we got wrong, it's not really an— is not what we got wrong, it's not really an apology _ is not what we got wrong, it's not really an apology as _ is not what we got wrong, it's not really an apology as far _ is not what we got wrong, it's not really an apology as far as - is not what we got wrong, it's not really an apology as far as i - is not what we got wrong, it's not really an apology as far as i am i really an apology as far as i am concerned _ really an apology as far as i am concerned. it— really an apology as far as i am concerned. it doesn't _ really an apology as far as i am concerned. it doesn't excuse i really an apology as far as i am i concerned. it doesn't excuse the horrendous _ concerned. it doesn't excuse the horrendous death— concerned. it doesn't excuse the horrendous death toll— concerned. it doesn't excuse the horrendous death toll which, - horrendous death toll which, although— horrendous death toll which, although he _ horrendous death toll which, although he wouldn't - horrendous death toll which, although he wouldn't acceptl horrendous death toll which, - although he wouldn't accept this money, — although he wouldn't accept this money, the _ although he wouldn't accept this money, the uk _ although he wouldn't accept this money, the uk has _ although he wouldn't accept this money, the uk has had - although he wouldn't accept this money, the uk has had one - although he wouldn't accept this money, the uk has had one of. although he wouldn't accept this i money, the uk has had one of the worst— money, the uk has had one of the worst death — money, the uk has had one of the worst death tolls _ money, the uk has had one of the worst death tolls in _ money, the uk has had one of the worst death tolls in europe - money, the uk has had one of the worst death tolls in europe and i money, the uk has had one of thei worst death tolls in europe and the rest of— worst death tolls in europe and the rest of the — worst death tolls in europe and the rest of the world. _ worst death tolls in europe and the rest of the world.— worst death tolls in europe and the rest of the world. something he has debated this — rest of the world. something he has debated this morning, _ rest of the world. something he has debated this morning, depending i rest of the world. something he has| debated this morning, depending on which statistics you look at. he explained some of the whatsapp messages being messages that were not really meant to be seen, subsequently. gallows humour, it has been described as in the past, but it doesn't make for easy viewing, quite clearly. what do you say to this argument that politicians are only human?— this argument that politicians are onl human? , ., , , only human? they are politicians but the also only human? they are politicians but they also leading _ only human? they are politicians but they also leading the _ only human? they are politicians but they also leading the country - only human? they are politicians but they also leading the country and - they also leading the country and they also leading the country and they have — they also leading the country and they have set such a bad example by they have set such a bad example by the way _ they have set such a bad example by the way they have handled it. it is the way they have handled it. it is the betrayal and the lies that have been _ the betrayal and the lies that have been told — the betrayal and the lies that have been told. they broke the rules, they— been told. they broke the rules, they partied, they wheeled suitcase down the _ they partied, they wheeled suitcase down the road full of booze, full of snacks _ down the road full of booze, full of snacks and — down the road full of booze, full of snacks and everything else. they had music. _ snacks and everything else. they had music. they— snacks and everything else. they had music, they partied while we all suffered. — music, they partied while we all suffered. i— music, they partied while we all suffered. i had to bury my father under— suffered. i had to bury my father under extreme circumstances. it was the second _ under extreme circumstances. it was the second death in my family within seven— the second death in my family within seven weeks and i had to go by their rules— seven weeks and i had to go by their rules and _ seven weeks and i had to go by their rules and their regulations and only have ten— rules and their regulations and only have ten people at my father's funeral. — have ten people at my father's funeral. under extreme times, i had to try— funeral. under extreme times, i had to tryand _ funeral. under extreme times, i had to try and talk to the undertakers because — to try and talk to the undertakers because they had run out of coffins. i because they had run out of coffins. i had _ because they had run out of coffins. i had just— because they had run out of coffins. i had just left the hospital and an hour and — i had just left the hospital and an hour and a — i had just left the hospital and an hour and a half later they called me to tell— hour and a half later they called me to tell me _ hour and a half later they called me to tell me they had no room in the morgue _ to tell me they had no room in the morgue and — to tell me they had no room in the morgue and would i organise for my father— morgue and would i organise for my father to _ morgue and would i organise for my father to be — morgue and would i organise for my father to be removed. it wasjust unbelievable and horrendous times. they seem — unbelievable and horrendous times. they seem to sit on a pedestal, make the rules. _ they seem to sit on a pedestal, make the rules, but break them. they seem to sit on a pedestal, make the rules, but breakthem. is they seem to sit on a pedestal, make the rules, but break them.— the rules, but break them. is there an hinu the rules, but break them. is there anything you _ the rules, but break them. is there anything you could _ the rules, but break them. is there anything you could hear _ the rules, but break them. is there anything you could hear this - anything you could hear this afternoon that would mitigate any of your feelings? afternoon that would mitigate any of yourfeelings? ida. afternoon that would mitigate any of your feelings?— your feelings? no, i don't think so. on our your feelings? no, i don't think so. on your last _ your feelings? no, i don't think so. on your last point, _ your feelings? no, i don't think so. on your last point, they _ your feelings? no, i don't think so. on your last point, they are - on your last point, they are supposed _ on your last point, they are supposed to— on your last point, they are supposed to be _ on your last point, they are supposed to be humans, i on your last point, they are l supposed to be humans, but unfortunately _ supposed to be humans, but unfortunately the _ supposed to be humans, but unfortunately the comments j supposed to be humans, but- unfortunately the comments and the way they— unfortunately the comments and the way they have — unfortunately the comments and the way they have behaved _ unfortunately the comments and the way they have behaved isn't - unfortunately the comments and the way they have behaved isn't like - way they have behaved isn't like that. _ way they have behaved isn't like that. it's — way they have behaved isn't like that. it's like _ way they have behaved isn't like that. it's like they— way they have behaved isn't like that. it's like they were - way they have behaved isn't like that. it's like they were in - way they have behaved isn't like that. it's like they were in an - that. it's like they were in an ivory— that. it's like they were in an ivory tower. _ that. it's like they were in an ivory tower, forgetting - that. it's like they were in an ivory tower, forgetting about that. it's like they were in an - ivory tower, forgetting about what it was _ ivory tower, forgetting about what it was like — ivory tower, forgetting about what it was like to — ivory tower, forgetting about what it was like to be _ ivory tower, forgetting about what it was like to be in _ ivory tower, forgetting about what it was like to be in the _ ivory tower, forgetting about whatj it was like to be in the population. what's _ it was like to be in the population. what's more. _ it was like to be in the population. what's more, there _ it was like to be in the population. what's more, there were - it was like to be in the population. i what's more, there were politicians around _ what's more, there were politicians around the — what's more, there were politicians around the world, _ what's more, there were politicians around the world, jacinda _ what's more, there were politicians around the world, jacinda dern - what's more, there were politicians around the world, jacinda dern whoj around the world, jacinda dern who said at— around the world, jacinda dern who said at the — around the world, jacinda dern who said at the beginning _ around the world, jacinda dern who said at the beginning when - around the world, jacinda dern who said at the beginning when she - around the world, jacinda dern who said at the beginning when she had| around the world, jacinda dern who. said at the beginning when she had a bad boris _ said at the beginning when she had a bad borisjohnson's _ said at the beginning when she had a bad borisjohnson's approach, - said at the beginning when she had a bad boris johnson's approach, it - said at the beginning when she had a bad borisjohnson's approach, it is. bad borisjohnson's approach, it is not an— bad borisjohnson's approach, it is not an approach _ bad borisjohnson's approach, it is not an approach she _ bad borisjohnson's approach, it is not an approach she could - bad borisjohnson's approach, it is not an approach she could follow. not an approach she could follow because — not an approach she could follow because people's _ not an approach she could follow because people's lives _ not an approach she could follow because people's lives are - because people's lives are important. _ because people's lives are important. she _ because people's lives are important. she respectedl because people's lives are - important. she respected those because people's lives are _ important. she respected those lives and she _ important. she respected those lives and she did _ important. she respected those lives and she did protect— important. she respected those lives and she did protect them. _ important. she respected those lives and she did protect them. this- and she did protect them. this afternoon _ and she did protect them. this afternoon when _ and she did protect them. this afternoon when he _ and she did protect them. this afternoon when he said - and she did protect them. this. afternoon when he said protecting lives was — afternoon when he said protecting lives was important, _ afternoon when he said protecting lives was important, it _ afternoon when he said protecting lives was important, it didn't - afternoon when he said protecting lives was important, it didn't feell lives was important, it didn't feel like that. — lives was important, it didn't feel like that. it — lives was important, it didn't feel like that. it wasn't _ lives was important, it didn't feel like that. it wasn't and _ lives was important, it didn't feel like that. it wasn't and now- lives was important, it didn't feel like that. it wasn't and now we i lives was important, it didn't feel. like that. it wasn't and now we can see the _ like that. it wasn't and now we can see the results. _ like that. it wasn't and now we can see the results. i— like that. it wasn't and now we can see the results.— see the results. i will let you go back in because _ see the results. i will let you go back in because the _ see the results. i will let you go back in because the evidence i see the results. i will let you go | back in because the evidence will start again in the next few minutes. it has been a very busy day at the inquiry and borisjohnson is due to give more evidence tomorrow. it is going to go on. to give you a quick update, we have had the apology from borisjohnson, and as you have heard, it wasn't enough for many people, particularly those campaigners who have travelled hundreds of miles to be here, just to appear on the outside, not necessarily get into the room, but just to be here and witness this evidence being given. we have heard about the toxic culture within downing street, something we have heard about so much over the last few weeks. boris johnson heard about so much over the last few weeks. borisjohnson seemingly defending that. anyway he said he liked the atmosphere of challenge. it had been similar in previous governments, just that previous governments, just that previous governments didn't necessarily have the whatsapp messages to show for it. as you mentioned earlier, this admission we should have, choose his words, tweaked earlier. seeing some of the pictures coming out of italy made me focus the minds of the government. but a sense around the political classes in the february time, that covid simply hadn't broken as a concept for politicians at the time. broken as a concept for politicians at the time-— at the time. thank you very much indeed, at the time. thank you very much indeed. we _ at the time. thank you very much indeed, we are _ at the time. thank you very much indeed, we are going _ at the time. thank you very much indeed, we are going straight - at the time. thank you very much | indeed, we are going straight back to the covid inquiry for as long as it is going on. borisjohnson has apologised for the pain and the loss and suffering during the pandemic, acknowledging that mistakes were made. 50 acknowledging that mistakes were made, ., , acknowledging that mistakes were made. ., , , , , acknowledging that mistakes were made. . , , , ' made. so many people suffered, so many people _ made. so many people suffered, so many people lost — made. so many people suffered, so many people lost their _ made. so many people suffered, so many people lost their lives. - many people lost their lives. inevitably, in the course of trying to handle — inevitably, in the course of trying to handle a — inevitably, in the course of trying to handle a very, very difficult pandemic, in which we had to balance appalling _ pandemic, in which we had to balance appalling harms on either side of the decision, we may have made mistakes. — the decision, we may have made mistakes. i— the decision, we may have made mistakes. i don't want to try to anticipate — mistakes. i don't want to try to anticipate the discussion, which i am sure — anticipate the discussion, which i am sure we — anticipate the discussion, which i am sure we will get into about the timings— am sure we will get into about the timings of— am sure we will get into about the timings of lockdowns, of npis. we -ot timings of lockdowns, of npis. we got something wrong. i thought we were doing our best at the time, given— were doing our best at the time, given the — were doing our best at the time, given the information i had available at the time, we did level best. _ available at the time, we did level best. where there are things we should _ best. where there are things we should have been differently? unquestionably.— should have been differently? unquestionably. should have been differently? unuuestionabl . _ ., unquestionably. boris johnson, the former prime _ unquestionably. boris johnson, the former prime minister— unquestionably. boris johnson, the former prime minister giving - former prime minister giving evidence in the covid inquiry. this is the first of two days in which he will be doing so and they have really taken will be doing so and they have really ta ken a will be doing so and they have really taken a chronological view of the pandemic, starting with some of now, where they have got to some of the decisions that were being made at the start of the various lockdowns and restrictions. let's listen in. ., ., , ., listen in. you made plain in your statement _ listen in. you made plain in your statement you _ listen in. you made plain in your statement you were _ listen in. you made plain in your statement you were extremely l listen in. you made plain in your- statement you were extremely keen to reopen schools, was that because you felt that keeping children out of school was arguably one of the greatest harms of the lockdown? absolutely. greatest harms of the lockdown? absolutely-— greatest harms of the lockdown? absolutel . ., ., ,, ., ., absolutely. you addressed the nation on the 10th of — absolutely. you addressed the nation on the 10th of may _ absolutely. you addressed the nation on the 10th of may and _ absolutely. you addressed the nation on the 10th of may and included - absolutely. you addressed the nation on the 10th of may and included an i on the 10th of may and included an instruction that those who could not work from home should be actively encouraged to go to work and, "work from home if you can, but you should go to work if you cannot work from home". the witness statement from mr sunak expresses how he was frustrated that there was, as he sees it, over compliance with the stay home messaging. and he believes that the... the possibility, or rather the likelihood that many people would ignore the active encouragement to go to work and not go to work had an exacerbation, exacerbated the economic impact of the lockdown. in your communications with your colleagues on the subject, did you, injuly, say this, injuly 2021, looking back to 2020, i arguably cocked it up last time with finger wagging to everyone to get on and do some work. do you recall saying that, expressing regret a year later that you had got the work from home if you can, but go to work if you cannot work from home message wrong? i if you cannot work from home message wron: ? ~ . ., , ., if you cannot work from home message wron: ? ~ . .,, ., , wrong? i think that it was a very difficult time _ wrong? i think that it was a very difficult time as _ wrong? i think that it was a very difficult time as we _ wrong? i think that it was a very difficult time as we came - wrong? i think that it was a very difficult time as we came out. wrong? i think that it was a very l difficult time as we came out of... the whole — difficult time as we came out of... the whole thing was unbelievably difficult. — the whole thing was unbelievably difficult, but as we came out of lockdown — difficult, but as we came out of lockdown in the early summer of 2020. _ lockdown in the early summer of 2020. for— lockdown in the early summer of 2020, for the first time. some areas remained _ 2020, for the first time. some areas remained undera lot 2020, for the first time. some areas remained under a lot of restrictive measures. — remained under a lot of restrictive measures. i— remained under a lot of restrictive measures. i felt strongly that the people _ measures. i felt strongly that the people had made such a sacrifice to -et people had made such a sacrifice to get the _ people had made such a sacrifice to get the r_ people had made such a sacrifice to get the r down that we must try to allow— get the r down that we must try to allow people some freedom. and i wanted _ allow people some freedom. and i wanted the benefits of the exertion, the effort _ wanted the benefits of the exertion, the effort to get the r down to be felt throughout the country, for people — felt throughout the country, for people to be able to do things again. — people to be able to do things again. and it is probably true that i again. and it is probably true that i wanted — again. and it is probably true that i wanted to— again. and it is probably true that i wanted to see people back at work and i_ i wanted to see people back at work and i think— i wanted to see people back at work and i think that psychologically, emotionally a lot of people were in a very— emotionally a lot of people were in a very different place. they felt they had — a very different place. they felt they had seen a terrifying pandemic, they had seen a terrifying pandemic, they were _ they had seen a terrifying pandemic, they were still very apprehensive and they— they were still very apprehensive and they didn't want the government lecturing _ and they didn't want the government lecturing them about what to do. and that is— lecturing them about what to do. and that is probably what i am getting at. ~ . . that is probably what i am getting at. . . , , , ., ., , at. what is the speed of the release ve hard at. what is the speed of the release very hard to — at. what is the speed of the release very hard to gauge? _ at. what is the speed of the release very hard to gauge? very. - at. what is the speed of the release very hard to gauge? very. insert i very hard to gauge? very. insert patrick vallance's _ very hard to gauge? very. insert patrick vallance's diaries, - very hard to gauge? very. insert patrick vallance's diaries, he - patrick vallance's diaries, he described it as being very bullish and wanting everything to be released sooner than we would. by week, he means the scientist. page 92, in the context of a meeting with the prime minister, actually having a discussion about letting it rip. on the 12th ofjuly, prime minister still wants to push opening too fast. and if you just pause there, then on a whatsapp group extract between yourself and mr hancock in the top team group on the 15th of july. the top team group on the 15th of july, you say i was calling because i'm very worried, we have gone fast and releasing lockdown, i am getting attraction on doing what's needed to protect the nhs. cases of track and trace are starting to rise. that is dated the 15th ofjuly, by which time the nhs track and trace system was up and running. maybe presume from these messages that it was very difficult to decide whether you are going too fast, would you wanting to reopen, let it rip, to use your words of whether or not you are going too fast and then becoming overly concerned about the winter and the rise in cases? first overly concerned about the winter and the rise in cases?— and the rise in cases? first of all, on the whatsapp _ and the rise in cases? first of all, on the whatsapp with _ and the rise in cases? first of all, on the whatsapp with matt - and the rise in cases? first of all, i on the whatsapp with matt hancock, you have _ on the whatsapp with matt hancock, you have got to remember this is a cabinet _ you have got to remember this is a cabinet minister also thinking about his budget. if you read that carefully you can see what he's saying. — carefully you can see what he's saying. he _ carefully you can see what he's saying, he needs more money, which is for— saying, he needs more money, which is for all— saying, he needs more money, which is for all secretary of state rightly _ is for all secretary of state rightly do in their message. that is part of— rightly do in their message. that is part of the — rightly do in their message. that is part of the conversation. but clearly. _ part of the conversation. but clearly, the issue was that i think ialways— clearly, the issue was that i think i always realise, certainly nobody disagreed — i always realise, certainly nobody disagreed with me that when we came out of— disagreed with me that when we came out of lockdown, when we went into lockdown. _ out of lockdown, when we went into lockdown, as patrick said in that first important press conference on march _ first important press conference on march the — first important press conference on march the 12th, you can push it down but with— march the 12th, you can push it down but with a _ march the 12th, you can push it down but with a non—immunised population it will— but with a non—immunised population it will bounce back. and so i always knew _ it will bounce back. and so i always knew that _ it will bounce back. and so i always knew that throughout the summer we were basically in remission, as it were _ were basically in remission, as it were and — were basically in remission, as it were and the thing would come back. it were and the thing would come back. it was _ were and the thing would come back. it was a _ were and the thing would come back. it was a very. — were and the thing would come back. it was a very, very difficult judgment to make. he it was a very, very difficult judgment to make. it was a very, very difficult 'udument to make. ., , judgment to make. he said the last whatsa- judgment to make. he said the last whatsapp in _ judgment to make. he said the last whatsapp in the — judgment to make. he said the last whatsapp in the top _ judgment to make. he said the last whatsapp in the top team - judgment to make. he said the last whatsapp in the top team group i judgment to make. he said the last i whatsapp in the top team group there on the page on the screen may be reflective of a secretary of state... is that your wording? this is you saying, i'm very worried about winter and him saying what is the evidence on uk rising cases. is it the other way round? we cannot tell. i it the other way round? we cannot tell. ., . it the other way round? we cannot tell. , ., ., , ., ., tell. i may be totally wrong about this, buti tell. i may be totally wrong about this, but i read _ tell. i may be totally wrong about this, but i read that _ tell. i may be totally wrong about this, but i read that as _ tell. i may be totally wrong about this, but i read that as being i tell. i may be totally wrong about| this, but i read that as being matt hancock— this, but i read that as being matt hancock in — this, but i read that as being matt hancock in the green to me saying we can take _ hancock in the green to me saying we can take a _ hancock in the green to me saying we can take a risk on not building up the nhs— can take a risk on not building up the nhs this winter. what he is really— the nhs this winter. what he is really saying is give us the money and that— really saying is give us the money and that is— really saying is give us the money and that is what i understood partly. — and that is what i understood partly. but also what he's saying is, partly. but also what he's saying is. are _ partly. but also what he's saying is, are rising. and that was no particular— is, are rising. and that was no particular surprise to me. the question— particular surprise to me. the question in summer and autumn is, what's _ question in summer and autumn is, what's the — question in summer and autumn is, what's the tactics. the objective is to save _ what's the tactics. the objective is to save lives. but do we have any new tactics — to save lives. but do we have any new tactics now? it to save lives. but do we have any new tactics now?— to save lives. but do we have any new tactics now? it was apparent to the government — new tactics now? it was apparent to the government and _ new tactics now? it was apparent to the government and he _ new tactics now? it was apparent to the government and he that - new tactics now? it was apparent to the government and he that kaeser| the government and he that kaeser started going up at a relatively early stage. they plateaued but then they came right down after the lockdown and they plateaued for a while but they started to go up so the eat out to help out scheme well in advance of september and october? that is exactly right and contrary to our— that is exactly right and contrary to our hopes in the early phases, certainly— to our hopes in the early phases, certainly by — to our hopes in the early phases, certainly by the end of may, beginning ofjune there is a very small— beginning ofjune there is a very small percentage of the population that has— small percentage of the population that has antibodies. you are looking at a huge _ that has antibodies. you are looking at a huge number of people who are still potential covid victims. that is very. — still potential covid victims. that is very, very difficult. the percentage _ is very, very difficult. the percentage of _ is very, very difficult. the percentage of the - is very, very difficult. iia: percentage of the population is very, very difficult. tia: percentage of the population that have been immunised by virtue of infection was very low at about six or 7%? . . infection was very low at about six or7%? . , , infection was very low at about six or 7%?— herd i or 7%? that is exactly right. herd immunity. _ or 7%? that is exactly right. herd immunity. in _ or 7%? that is exactly right. herd immunity, in fact, _ or 7%? that is exactly right. herd immunity, in fact, very _ or 7%? that is exactly right. herd immunity, in fact, very few i or 7%? that is exactly right. herd | immunity, in fact, very few people were immunised by virtue of infection. were immunised by virtue of infection-— were immunised by virtue of| infection._ to infection. you have got it. to divert to _ infection. you have got it. to divert to a — infection. you have got it. to divert to a different - infection. you have got it. to divert to a different subject, | infection. you have got it. to i divert to a different subject, the devolved administrations, please. in your statement he said the interest of the devolved administrations did not align with england's or the united kingdom's interest. that is an inevitable part of a devolved system. was that a nod to the fact that the united kingdom powers were constrained by public health legislation, the coronavirus act, the public health act, control of diseases act, but on the ground this public health crisis was a devolved issue because it was for each devolved nation to determine its own course in terms of the public health measures it took? did it matter ultimately, there has been a great deal of evidence given about differences of approach in terms of presentation, debate about whether or not politically one or more devolved administrations took a different route for political reasons. also, whether or not when they attended meetings they were simply informed of what the position would be, rather than being encouraged to generally debate the decision? overall, did the constituent parts of the united kingdom generally work well in the face of this crisis?— face of this crisis? yes, i hope what many — face of this crisis? yes, i hope what many of _ face of this crisis? yes, i hope what many of your _ face of this crisis? yes, i hopel what many of your respondents face of this crisis? yes, i hope i what many of your respondents have said, overwhelmingly, the collaboration was excellent. the governments of the devolved administrations, there was far, far more _ administrations, there was far, far more that— administrations, there was far, far more that united is then divided us. it more that united is then divided us. it sounds _ more that united is then divided us. it sounds trite, but it has got to be said — it sounds trite, but it has got to be said and _ it sounds trite, but it has got to be said and it was a really big uk effort _ be said and it was a really big uk effort on — be said and it was a really big uk effort on the country really pulled together. — effort on the country really pulled together. i was making a much more limited _ together. i was making a much more limited point. it is no disrespect to the _ limited point. it is no disrespect to the first— limited point. it is no disrespect to the first minister of scotland or anybody— to the first minister of scotland or anybody else, they, understandably were looking to talk directly to their— were looking to talk directly to their own _ were looking to talk directly to their own electorates. they were going _ their own electorates. they were going to — their own electorates. they were going to be times when they differed from the _ going to be times when they differed from the main uk government message. ithought— from the main uk government message. i thought that was sometimes at risk of being _ i thought that was sometimes at risk of being confusing at a time when we really— of being confusing at a time when we really needed it to land messages simply. _ really needed it to land messages simply. i— really needed it to land messages simply. i could see people endlessly playing _ simply. i could see people endlessly playing back, scotland says this, england — playing back, scotland says this, england says this, wales is doing a greater— england says this, wales is doing a greater circuit breaker and so on. didnt— greater circuit breaker and so on. didn't help — greater circuit breaker and so on. didn't help yourself, mrjohnson, in this debate. because e—mails between mr cummings and helen mcnamara show that mr cummings said the prime minister's view and mine on cobra, this is about the debate on who should attend cobra, is they are hopeless decision—making entities and cause trouble for communications because some attendees are cobra and mr cummings had in mind the devolved administrations leak immediately afterwards. was that your view? i think sometimes that was the case and that— think sometimes that was the case and that was, in my view, a problem. perhaps _ and that was, in my view, a problem. perhaps we _ and that was, in my view, a problem. perhaps we could have found a better way to _ perhaps we could have found a better way to manage it, but that was certainly— way to manage it, but that was certainly one of the problems. the s stem certainly one of the problems. the system was _ certainly one of the problems. i““ie: system was understood not to certainly one of the problems. i““i2 system was understood not to be working particularly well in terms of the government structures. the sustainer structures at the top and relationship to the devolved administrations. there was the series of the four ministerial limitation groups between march and may and they were then done away with and replaced by covid. you directed following advice from your cabinet secretary that there should be a new rhythm of meetings, the 9am meetings to which the das were invited and you directed that consideration should be given to using thejoint consideration should be given to using the joint ministerial committee. but thejoint using the joint ministerial committee. but the joint ministerial committee. but the joint ministerial committee was never used, was it for the purposes of meeting with the das? . ., .. �* �* the purposes of meeting with the das? , ., ., �* ~ ., das? first of all, cobra has had the roblems das? first of all, cobra has had the problems we — das? first of all, cobra has had the problems we have _ das? first of all, cobra has had the problems we have identified. - das? first of all, cobra has had the problems we have identified. there i problems we have identified. there was a _ problems we have identified. there was a problem with messaging and that was— was a problem with messaging and that was a — was a problem with messaging and that was a serious problem. i think that was a serious problem. i think that in_ that was a serious problem. i think that in future there has to be some way of— that in future there has to be some way of having a joined up, a uk pandemic— way of having a joined up, a uk pandemic and how you get to that, i have got— pandemic and how you get to that, i have got an — pandemic and how you get to that, i have got an open mind. i see a lot of my— have got an open mind. i see a lot of my colleagues are against the civil contingencies act. i am happy to defer— civil contingencies act. i am happy to defer to — civil contingencies act. i am happy to defer to them on that point. i wonder— to defer to them on that point. i wonder whether you could amend the 1984 public health act that has an exemption for pandemics. itjust seems _ exemption for pandemics. itjust seems to— exemption for pandemics. itjust seems to me that something needs to be done _ seems to me that something needs to be done to— seems to me that something needs to be done to fix this whilst taking account— be done to fix this whilst taking account of the legitimate concerns of the _ account of the legitimate concerns of the das, their desire to be involved _ of the das, their desire to be involved and to contribute. but we need _ involved and to contribute. but we need to _ involved and to contribute. but we need to find a better way to get a single _ need to find a better way to get a single message.— need to find a better way to get a single message. there was a body called the review _ single message. there was a body called the review of _ called the review of intergovernmental relations. i think it reported injanuary intergovernmental relations. i think it reported in january 2022, intergovernmental relations. i think it reported injanuary 2022, is just at the end of the crisis, which recommended that the prime minister of the united kingdom should meet with the heads of devolved governments on a regular basis. but that came later. during the crisis, he ordered that michael gove, the chancellor of the duchy of lancashire should share regular meetings with the devolved administrations? but there were difficulties, aware that they're not, in setting up a structure? it took time for those meetings to be arranged, do you recall that? ai a i don't recall the delay but i recall asking _ a i don't recall the delay but i recall asking michael- a i don't recall the delay but i recall asking michael to i a i don't recall the delay but i recall asking michael to do i a i don't recall the delay but i recall asking michael to do it, a i don't recall the delay but i l recall asking michael to do it, i think— recall asking michael to do it, i think he — recall asking michael to do it, i think he was ideally placed to do it and did _ think he was ideally placed to do it and did a _ think he was ideally placed to do it and did a very, very good job of working — and did a very, very good job of working with the da is. that didn't stop some — working with the da is. that didn't stop some of the ruggedness that i have talked about. if i had my time again. _ have talked about. if i had my time again. with — have talked about. if i had my time again, with hindsight, i think it is an area _ again, with hindsight, i think it is an area where i would have tried, even _ an area where i would have tried, even though i was very pushed for time. _ even though i was very pushed for time. i'd _ even though i was very pushed for time, i'd have tried to spend more time _ time, i'd have tried to spend more time with— time, i'd have tried to spend more time with the das and really try to bring _ time with the das and really try to bring them with me, but i'm afraid it may— bring them with me, but i'm afraid it mayjust— bring them with me, but i'm afraid it mayjust be that i am over estimating my ability to get a consensus. there was always the risk of diversions. — consensus. there was always the risk of diversions-— of diversions. with respect, you may be missed -- — of diversions. with respect, you may be missed -- misrepresenting i of diversions. with respect, you may be missed -- misrepresenting your. be missed —— misrepresenting your true views, you said it was optically wrong for the united kingdom prime minister to hold regular meetings with the other da first ministers. i regular meetings with the other da first ministers.— first ministers. i happen to think that is also _ first ministers. i happen to think that is also true. _ first ministers. i happen to think that is also true. they _ first ministers. i happen to think that is also true. they can't i first ministers. i happen to thinkj that is also true. they can't both be riuht. that is also true. they can't both be right. well. _ that is also true. they can't both be right. well, sometimes i that is also true. they can't both be right. well, sometimes you l that is also true. they can't both l be right. well, sometimes you can that is also true. they can't both i be right. well, sometimes you can do

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