on the subject of exhaustive —— they were the subject of exhaustive cabinet discussion. in were the subject of exhaustive cabinet discussion.— were the subject of exhaustive cabinet discussion. in his witness statement. _ cabinet discussion. in his witness statement, michael— cabinet discussion. in his witness statement, michael gove - cabinet discussion. in his witness statement, michael gove has - cabinet discussion. in his witness| statement, michael gove has said cabinet discussion. in his witness - statement, michael gove has said the wider cabinet were brought into decisions at times too late and too little. mrsaid decisions at times too late and too little. mr said javi in his witness statement that the cavet was designed to place dominic cummings and the prime minister as the decision—makers —— mrjavid. to centralise power at number ten. and in his own witness statement, mr cummings has said the cabinet were largely irrelevant to policy or execution on account of the leaks, your inability to share it, and it because it was seen by number ten is not being a serious place for serious discussion. i not being a serious place for serious discussion.— not being a serious place for serious discussion. i don't think that's true- _ serious discussion. i don't think that's true. i _ serious discussion. i don't think that's true. i think _ serious discussion. i don't think that's true. i think there - serious discussion. i don't think that's true. i think there were l serious discussion. i don't think- that's true. i think there were some really excellent cabinet discussions. about the trade offs. in fact, to make a comment about cabinet as a whole in terms of the speed of lockdowns, which was your... what we're talking about, i think it probably would be fair to say that the cabinet was, on the whole, more reluctant to impose npis necessary then i was, that was true of almost every member of the cabinet but that would be a general comment. the cabinet but that would be a general comment. ,, ., . , ., ., comment. the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march _ comment. the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march 2020 _ comment. the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march 2020 was - comment. the lockdown decision of i the 23rd of march 2020 was debated, as you rightly say, at great length on the sunday, on the monday, by the various bodies, but in particular by cobra but it was debated on monday the 23rd in cobra and the public announcement, we all recall, was made that evening and it went to cabinet on the tuesday. in relation to the first lockdown decision, it is obvious that cabinet debated it after the event. in relation to the second lockdown, that of november 2020, mrjohnson, do you recall whether or not that decision was made by covid ministerial committee or cabinet? i’m made by covid ministerial committee or cabinet? �* . . made by covid ministerial committee orcabinet? . . or cabinet? i'm afraid i can't remember _ or cabinet? i'm afraid i can't remember the _ or cabinet? i'm afraid i can't remember the sequence - or cabinet? i'm afraid i can't i remember the sequence there. or cabinet? i'm afraid i can't - remember the sequence there. just remember the sequence there. just picking you up on the first... the first lockdown, which was actually a sort of crescendo of measures, i'm fairly certain we had a long cabinet call, at least, to discuss it.- call, at least, to discuss it. well, we will look _ call, at least, to discuss it. well, we will look at _ call, at least, to discuss it. well, we will look at that _ call, at least, to discuss it. well, we will look at that in _ call, at least, to discuss it. well, we will look at that in detail - we will look at that in detail later. the inquiry has heard a great deal of evidence, mrjohnson, about the way in which your secretaries of state would naturally enter permissible income at the same issue, whether to have a lockdown, whether to use, whether to have a tiered system from different angles. the secretary of state for health and social care, understandably, would promote the public health consequences and the need to act in the public health. the chancellor would frequently promote the economic considerations. it is obvious that all were aware, to greater or lesser degree, of the societal and economic harm that would result from the decisions that you are having to contemplate making. ultimately, who had to weigh up and determine the competing public interest considerations, public interest considerations, public health, societal harm, economic damage, and so on? on whose shoulders rested that debate? that’s shoulders rested that debate? that's the 'ob shoulders rested that debate? that's the “0b of shoulders rested that debate? that's the job of the — shoulders rested that debate? that's the job of the prime _ shoulders rested that debate? that's the job of the prime minister. - shoulders rested that debate? that's the job of the prime minister. there is only the prime minister who can do that. but i think that that wasn't actually a bad way of doing it. to have different interests represented by different secretary of states and departments. zhau of states and departments. zhou meubl , you need _ of states and departments. zhou meubl , you need at _ of states and departments. zhou meubl , you need at the - of states and departments. zrim. meubl , you need at the advice of your close advisers! presumably you needed. the cabinet secretary and those in the civil service in addition to advice from secretaries of state. could you please give the inquiry an indication as to the identity of the persons upon whom you are most reliant in that debate, in that weighing up exercise? weill. in that weighing up exercise? well, i don't. .. in that weighing up exercise? well, i don't- -- i — in that weighing up exercise? well, idon't... i don't— in that weighing up exercise? well, i don't. .. i don't wish _ in that weighing up exercise? well, i don't. .. i don't wish to... - i don't... i don't wish to... embarrassed distinguished public officials by naming them... i don't know what the... i find that civil servants, on the whole, are quite happy to... to remain... anonymous, but i can certainly tell you that i had superb deputy private secretary, a mathematician, an economist, who is brilliant at understanding health care issues, and an absolutely brilliant private secretary for health care.— health care. the inquiry has obviously — health care. the inquiry has obviously heard _ health care. the inquiry has obviously heard from - health care. the inquiry has obviously heard from a - health care. the inquiry has . obviously heard from a number health care. the inquiry has - obviously heard from a number of advisers. i obviously heard from a number of advisers. ~ obviously heard from a number of advisers. ,, , ., . . advisers. i think you have heard from both _ advisers. ! think you have heard from both of— advisers. i think you have heard from both of those _ advisers. i think you have heard from both of those individuals. | advisers. i think you have heard i from both of those individuals. so, there is no — from both of those individuals. so, there is no debate about their identity, mrjohnson. i there is no debate about their identity, mrjohnson.- there is no debate about their identity, mrjohnson. ithink you ma need identity, mrjohnson. ithink you may need to _ identity, mrjohnson. ithink you may need to make _ identity, mrjohnson. ithink you may need to make the _ identity, mrjohnson. ithink you may need to make the question | identity, mrjohnson. i think you | may need to make the question a identity, mrjohnson. i think you - may need to make the question a bit more _ may need to make the question a bit more specific, mr keith. the evidence _ more specific, mr keith. the evidence is, _ more specific, mr keith. the evidence is, mr _ more specific, mr keith. tie: evidence is, mrjohnson, more specific, mr keith. t't;e: evidence is, mrjohnson, that more specific, mr keith. tt9: evidence is, mrjohnson, that he received advice from advisers in number ten. received advice from advisers in number ten-— received advice from advisers in numberten. yes. your chief received advice from advisers in number ten. yes. your chief adviser, mr cummings. yes. _ number ten. yes. your chief adviser, mr cummings. yes. you _ number ten. yes. your chief adviser, mr cummings. yes. you received - mr cummings. yes. you received advice from _ mr cummings. yes. you received advice from the _ mr cummings. yes. you received advice from the cabinet secretary firstly. advice from the cabinet secretary firstl . , advice from the cabinet secretary firstly-- mark— advice from the cabinet secretary firstly. yes. mark sedwill and then martin ease. _ firstly. yes. mark sedwill and then martin case, the _ firstly. yes. mark sedwill and then martin case, the cmo and general chief scientific adviser. yes. martin case, the cmo and general chief scientific adviser.— chief scientific adviser. yes, i should have _ chief scientific adviser. yes, i should have cited _ chief scientific adviser. yes, i should have cited them - chief scientific adviser. yes, i should have cited them first, | chief scientific adviser. yes, i - should have cited them first, yes. it's apparent that on top of the formal advisory structures, the meetings with the cmo and the cabinet secretary, the meetings with your ministers, you had a profusion of meetings with your chief adviser, mr cummings, with your cabinet secretary, with your principal private secretary, and so on. there were a huge number of rolling meetings with your innermost group of advisers. therefore, i want to know to what extent you came to rely on them in the ultimate decision—making process. {lit on them in the ultimate decision-making process. of course, i relied on decision-making process. of course, i relied on the _ decision-making process. of course, i relied on the advice i was given. . i relied on the advice i was given. but the way it works, advisers advise that ministers decide. you received a _ advise that ministers decide. you received a great _ advise that ministers decide. tm. received a great deal of advice from the chief medical officer and the government's scientific adviser and they were a vital source of advice, that's obvious.— they were a vital source of advice, that's obvious. yes. you were aware that's obvious. yes. you were aware that sa . e that's obvious. yes. you were aware that sage met _ that's obvious. yes. you were aware that sage met hundreds of times, the scientific advisory group for emergencies. did you ever read their minutes or where you wholly reliant on the cmo ngc to essay to relay to you what sage had said. —— cgsa. t you what sage had said. —— cgsa. i looked once or twice at what sage had said and they produced a lot of the documentation. but i think the gsa and the cmo did an outstanding job in leading sage and distilling their views and conveying them to me. .. their views and conveying them to me, ,,., , their views and conveying them to me. ,,. , , : , me. the sage minutes were described as consensus — me. the sage minutes were described as consensus minutes _ me. the sage minutes were described as consensus minutes because - me. the sage minutes were described as consensus minutes because they i as consensus minutes because they were designed to be read at speed and be able to get to the heart of theissue and be able to get to the heart of the issue immediately on reading them. and to ensure that the advice that was being given would be readily and speedily understood. did you ever think of calling, as a general practice, for those minutes, so that you could yourself read them? many of them were only eight or nine pages long. this them? many of them were only eight or nine pages long. abs t them? many of them were only eight or nine pages long.— or nine pages long. as i say, i thinki or nine pages long. as i say, i think! did. — or nine pages long. as i say, i think i did, from _ or nine pages long. as i say, i think i did, from time - or nine pages long. as i say, i think i did, from time to - or nine pages long. as i say, i| think i did, from time to time, or nine pages long. as i say, i- think i did, from time to time, look at the consensus minutes. in retrospect, it might have been valuable to try to hear the sage conversation unpasteurised itself. but i didn't... i was more than content with the... very clear summaries that i was getting from the csa and cmo._ summaries that i was getting from the csa and cmo. they were hundreds of consensus — the csa and cmo. they were hundreds of consensus minutes _ the csa and cmo. they were hundreds of consensus minutes but _ the csa and cmo. they were hundreds of consensus minutes but you - the csa and cmo. they were hundreds of consensus minutes but you were - of consensus minutes but you were only given a fraction of them? —— there were. only given a fraction of them? -- there were-— only given a fraction of them? -- there were. :, ,:, , :, there were. that sounds right to me, es. we there were. that sounds right to me, yes- we will — there were. that sounds right to me, yes. we will look _ there were. that sounds right to me, yes. we will look in _ there were. that sounds right to me, yes. we will look in detail— there were. that sounds right to me, yes. we will look in detail at - there were. that sounds right to me, yes. we will look in detail at some i yes. we will look in detail at some ofthe yes. we will look in detail at some of the scientific _ yes. we will look in detail at some of the scientific debates _ yes. we will look in detail at some of the scientific debates that - of the scientific debates that engage to government, particularly in the middle of march. behavioural fatigue, herd immunity, the debate about the reasonable worst case scenario, and so on.— about the reasonable worst case scenario, and so on. yes. did you not think of... _ scenario, and so on. yes. did you not think of... looking at the scientific horse in the mouth and seen what was actually being said by the government's primary scientific advisory committee on these issues? as now appears to be the case, he became engaged particularly in the debate about behavioural fatigue. why didn't you call for the primary material? t why didn't you call for the primary material? ~ why didn't you call for the primary material? ,, . �* , ~ why didn't you call for the primary material? ,, :, �* , ~ material? i think that's. .. a good question- — material? i think that's. .. a good question- i _ material? i think that's. .. a good question. i was _ material? i think that's. .. a good question. i was very, _ material? i think that's. .. a good question. i was very, very - material? i think that's. .. a good l question. i was very, very much... impressed by and dependent upon the cmo and csa, both of whom are outstanding experts in theirfield. it felt, to me, that i couldn't do better than that. the it felt, to me, that i couldn't do better than that.— it felt, to me, that i couldn't do better than that. the cmo and the csa -- sca _ better than that. the cmo and the csa -- sca were _ better than that. the cmo and the csa -- sca were concerned - better than that. the cmo and the csa -- sca were concerned with l csa —— sca were concerned with medicine and science and sage was concerned, as it says on the tin, with science.— concerned, as it says on the tin, with science. cmo is the professor of ublic with science. cmo is the professor of public health, _ with science. cmo is the professor of public health, he _ with science. cmo is the professor of public health, he knows - with science. cmo is the professor of public health, he knows an - with science. cmo is the professor| of public health, he knows an awful lot about... of public health, he knows an awful lotabout... epidemiology of public health, he knows an awful lot about... epidemiology and public behaviour in an epidemic. ihe lot about. .. epidemiology and public behaviour in an epidemic.— behaviour in an epidemic. he does. you had no — behaviour in an epidemic. he does. you had no advisory _ behaviour in an epidemic. he does. you had no advisory structure - behaviour in an epidemic. he does. i you had no advisory structure around you, however. and, by contrast, dealt with matters such as the economic damage that would be done by the lockdown decisions. there was no pandemic or civil emergency or societal advisory body which might be thought to be an allergist to sage? in hindsight, and with the passage of time, do you suggest that there was an absence of a proper advisory structure to deal with the other issues and the other considerations which weighed in the balance when you came to make those final decisions? t balance when you came to make those final decisions?— final decisions? i thought about that a great _ final decisions? i thought about that a great deal. _ final decisions? i thought about that a great deal. there - final decisions? i thought about that a great deal. there is - final decisions? i thought about that a great deal. there is such | final decisions? i thought about. that a great deal. there is such a body and it is called hm treasury. that is what they do. early on, you referred, mr keith, to the competing perspectives of the whitehall departments and the secretaries of state. and i think for its difficulties, i think it did work well in allowing me to get a balance of the argument. the evidence appears already to suggest that the chancellor of the exchequer and then her majesty's treasury had considerable influence over the ultimate decision—making process because the chancellor would come to see you in bilateral meetings, there were bilateral meetings, there were bilateral meetings in the week of the 16th of march, before the first lockdown decision, in late october, before the second and in the summer of 2! and then again in december of 21, in relation to omicron. and also eat out to help out. but that advice was given to you by the chancellor and her majesty's treasury in a way that wasn't openly transparent to the way that the sage advice was provided to you. there were no minutes disclosed of the advice you are being given to the public, there was no regular production of material or any kind of published economic analysis provided to you. do you think, in hindsight, that that was an error? t hindsight, that that was an error? i think that there was certainly transparent economic analysis of the cost of some of the measures that we were obliged to enact. and the fall in gdp, the cost of cjrs and other schemes was plain to see. that was all public. what was not public and is not traditionally public as ministerial conversations and discussion between ministers. again, the perspective that i was being offered by the treasury was a very useful one, just as a perspective of the department of health was a very useful one. the material, that's _ health was a very useful one. the material, that's to _ health was a very useful one. tt9 material, that's to say diary entries and readouts from minutes and so on, show that the chancellor of the exchequer would, in this difficult context of making the ultimate decisions about lockdowns and easing and tiers and so on, would often get the last word in a bilateral meeting to take place just before you made a final decision. and also the secretary of state for health and social care was occasionally excluded from meetings and public health matters were being discussed. were you aware of that? t discussed. were you aware of that? i think that 's i reject that think that �*s i reject that characterisation of what took place. the overwhelming priority of the government was to protect the nhs, save lives, that was our objective. that was where my officials were coming from. that was what we wanted to do. it was important in that context that there were lots of things we had to do that were very difficult and very costly. and it was a right to have endless conversations with the treasury. that is what we did. qt conversations with the treasury. that is what we did.— conversations with the treasury. that is what we did. of course, you know a great _ that is what we did. of course, you know a great deal— that is what we did. of course, you know a great deal of _ that is what we did. of course, you know a great deal of evidence - that is what we did. of course, you know a great deal of evidence has i know a great deal of evidence has been given to my lady about the operation and competence of your administration. it needs to be stated absolutely plainly, that the inquiry has absolutely no interest inquiry has absolutely no interest in the salacious nurse or the nature of mr cummings' linguistic style or the whatsapps, but it does have an interest, of course, in whether or not his communications revealed an abusive and misogynistic impacts. the whatsapps and the texts shed either —— a direct light on the competence of the government and how well or not the government machinery operated, what do you all thought about each other, and what some of you thought, privately, about the decisions that were being taken. we are going to look in detail at them later. but it's fair to say that, in the round, that material paints a... ds... : the round, that material paints a... ds...: . , the round, that material paints a... ds...: ,: the round, that material paints a... ds... an appalling picture. not all the time but _ ds... an appalling picture. not all the time but in _ ds... an appalling picture. not all the time but in times _ ds... an appalling picture. not all the time but in times of— the time but in times of incompetence and disarray. == the time but in times of incompetence and disarray. -- yes. can i incompetence and disarray. -- yes. can i comment _ incompetence and disarray. -- yes. can i comment on _ incompetence and disarray. -- yes. can i comment on that? _ incompetence and disarray. -- yes. can i comment on that? please? i incompetence and disarray. -- yes. l can i comment on that? please? two thins can i comment on that? please? two things need — can i comment on that? please? two things need to _ can i comment on that? please? two things need to be _ can i comment on that? please? two things need to be separated - can i comment on that? please? two things need to be separated out. - can i comment on that? please? two things need to be separated out. i i things need to be separated out. i think it is certainly true that this inquiry has... and i'm glad... has dredged up a phenomenal quantity of the type of material that would never have been available to any previous inquiry and two doings in number ten because the whatsapp communications of a kind would not have been possible. that is a good thing. you can get it texture, a feeling for the relationships with human beings. i would make a couple of points. firstly, a lot of the language referred to is completely unknown to me. or indeed to anybody else not on that group. i've apologised to one particular person who suffered abuse in one of those publicised whatsapp exchanges. but i would make a distinction between the type of language used and the decision—making processes of the government. and what we got done. and i would submit that any powerful and effective government has... i think of the thatcher government or the blair government, has a lot of talent to competing characters, whose views about each other might not be fit to print. but they get an awful lot done. that's what we did. your own cabinet secretary, mark sedwill, he was, of course, asked to move on and we will come to that later in may 2020. according to sir patrick vallance, he described your administration brutal and cruel and motivated people in number ten in such terrible times, if they were being shot in the back. that would appear to be a reference to the doings of number ten, as you say, to the process and the operation of government, as opposed to the atmospherics, would you not agree? again, ithink atmospherics, would you not agree? again, i think that what you are looking at in all this stuff is a loss of highly talented and highly motivated people that mac is a lot. they are stricken with anxiety about what is happening —— is a lot of highly talented and highly motivated people. like all human beings, they were under great stress and great anxiety about themselves and their own performance. they were inclined to be critical of others. that would have been the same of any administration facing the same sort of challenges on that scale. but administration facing the same sort of challenges on that scale.- of challenges on that scale. but do ou acce -t of challenges on that scale. but do you accept that _ of challenges on that scale. but do you accept that there _ of challenges on that scale. but do you accept that there is _ of challenges on that scale. but do you accept that there is a - you accept that there is a considerable body of material which addresses notjust their private thoughts of the other individuals in government, of them personally, but relates to the performance of government? to the way in which your administration actually operated, do you accept that? t administration actually operated, do you accept that?— you accept that? i do. and i think that was a _ you accept that? i do. and i think that was a good _ you accept that? i do. and i think that was a good and _ you accept that? i do. and i think that was a good and a _ you accept that? i do. and i think that was a good and a healthy i you accept that? i do. and i think. that was a good and a healthy thing. because we needed constant... given the scale of what we were facing, we needed constantly to challenge ourselves and constantly to try to do better. :, :, : . , do better. your own chief adviser described on _ do better. your own chief adviser described on the _ do better. your own chief adviser described on the 4th _ do better. your own chief adviser described on the 4th of _ do better. your own chief adviser described on the 4th of may, i do better. your own chief adviser described on the 4th of may, mr| described on the ltth of may, mr cummings, something the government has done has been the best success of the whole criminally incompetent government performance. how could that be a good thing?— that be a good thing? because what he ist in: that be a good thing? because what he is trying to _ that be a good thing? because what he is trying to do — that be a good thing? because what he is trying to do is _ that be a good thing? because what he is trying to do is to... _ that be a good thing? because what he is trying to do is to... he - that be a good thing? because what he is trying to do is to... he is... i he is trying to do is to... he is... it's not for me to... explain his quotation, you can ask yourself. but what we were generally trying to do was to make sure that we delivered the best possible service for the people of the uk who were going through an absolutely terrible, terrible time. it would not have been right to have a load of... if we had a load of whatsapps saying aren't we doing brilliantly, folks, isn't this going well? i think your criticisms might have been, frankly, even more pungent. fin criticisms might have been, frankly, even more pungent.— even more pungent. on the 27th of march, even more pungent. on the 27th of march. after _ even more pungent. on the 27th of march. after mr— even more pungent. on the 27th of march, after mr cummings - even more pungent. on the 27th of march, after mr cummings had i march, after mr cummings had asserted that whitehall had nearly killed huge numbers of people and cost millions ofjobs and that mr hancock had failed to get on top of the testing problems, you yourself said these three words, "totally expletive hopeless", that was the reference to government. i would stress the word nearly. your response. — stress the word nearly. your response. mr _ stress the word nearly. your response, mrjohnson. i stress the word nearly. your response, mrjohnson. and | stress the word nearly. your| response, mrjohnson. and i stress the word nearly. your i response, mrjohnson. and i would sa that response, mrjohnson. and i would say that my — response, mrjohnson. and i would say that my job _ response, mrjohnson. and i would say that my job was _ response, mrjohnson. and i would say that my job was not _ response, mrjohnson. and i would say that my job was not to... i say that myjob was not to... uncritically accept that everything that we were doing was good. as it happens, as i said to you, the country, as a whole, had notable achievements during the crisis. my job was to try to get a load of quite disparate and challenging characters to keep going and through a long period and keep doing their level best to protect the country, that was myjob. d0 level best to protect the country, that was my job-— level best to protect the country, that was my job. that was my 'ob. do you accept the evidence that was my job. do you accept the evidence from _ that was my job. do you accept the evidence from helen _ that was my job. do you accept the evidence from helen mcnamara, i that was my job. do you accept the i evidence from helen mcnamara, about which you will be aware and also from former cabinet secretaries that mr cummings himself contributed to such a toxic atmosphere that civil servants simply didn't want to work in the heart of government? helen mcnamara said the relationships of number ten and the cabinet office had a real and damaging impact. you were told directly by simon case on the 2nd ofjuly, lots of top drawer people had refused to come to work because of the toxic reputation of your... i emphasise your operation. were you aware that there were individuals, civil servants, and advisers, who were not prepared to work in your administration because of the atmosphere and the working relationships which were in play? first of all, no. second... i was not aware of that. secondly, i didn't see any sign of that. i saw brilliantly talented people... when we wanted to recruit for a position in my private office, we had, as far as i can see, no difficulty getting wonderful people to step forward. if i might make... i think... wonderful people to step forward. if i might make... ithink... one self—criticism, another self—criticism, another self—criticism, would be the gender balance of my team should have been better. to your earlier question, looking back at it, when i was running london, it was great and it was 50—50 and it was a very harmonious team. i think sometimes, during the pandemic, too many meetings were too male dominated, if i'm absolutely honest with you. and i'm absolutely honest with you. and i think that was... i tried sometimes to rectify that, i tried to recruit a former colleague from from city hall... but i think that was something we should have done better. ,, :, was something we should have done better, ,, :, ., , was something we should have done better. ,, :, . , :, . , better. simon case, who was then the ermanent better. simon case, who was then the permanent secretary _ better. simon case, who was then the permanent secretary in _ better. simon case, who was then the permanent secretary in at _ better. simon case, who was then the permanent secretary in at number- permanent secretary in at number ten, sent a whatsapp on the 2nd of july to say lots of top drawer people had refused to come because of the toxic reputation of your operation. t of the toxic reputation of your operation-— of the toxic reputation of your 0 eration. :, �* , . operation. i don't remember that. you do? i — operation. i don't remember that. you do? i don't _ operation. i don't remember that. you do? i don't remember - operation. i don't remember that. you do? i don't remember that i operation. i don't remember that. | you do? i don't remember that and operation. i don't remember that. i you do? i don't remember that and my impression... == you do? i don't remember that and my impression- - -— you do? i don't remember that and my impression- - -_ i i impression... -- what did you do? i don't impression. .. -- what did you do? i don't recall— impression... -- what did you do? i don't recall ever _ impression... -- what did you do? i don't recall ever having _ impression... -- what did you do? i don't recall ever having a _ impression... -- what did you do? i don't recall ever having a problem l don't recall ever having a problem recruiting the best people. {0qu don't recall ever having a problem recruiting the best people. could we have, recruiting the best people. could we have. please. _ recruiting the best people. could we have, please, 48313 _ recruiting the best people. could we have, please, 48313 page _ recruiting the best people. could we have, please, 48313 page 16? i recruiting the best people. could we have, please, 48313 page 16? on i recruiting the best people. could we l have, please, 48313 page 16? on the screen. these are communication something mr cummings and yourself in may 2020. we are concerned with the bottom half of the page.— half of the page. sorry, can you... expanded? _ half of the page. sorry, can you... expanded? because _ half of the page. sorry, can you... expanded? because i— half of the page. sorry, can you... expanded? because i can't... i half of the page. sorry, can you... | expanded? because i can't... yes, 7th of may. _ expanded? because i can't... yes, 7th of may, hancock _ expanded? because i can't... yes, 7th of may, hancock is _ expanded? because i can't... yes, 7th of may, hancock is unfit - expanded? because i can't... yes, 7th of may, hancock is unfit for i 7th of may, hancock is unfit for this job. 7th of may, hancock is unfit for thisjob. incompetent, lies and obsession with media thisjob. incompetent, lies and obsession with medi you obsession with media expletive you must ask him — obsession with media expletive you must ask him when _ obsession with media expletive you must ask him when we _ obsession with media expletive you must ask him when we will— obsession with media expletive you must ask him when we will get i obsession with media expletive you must ask him when we will get to i must ask him when we will get to 500,000 a day and where is your plan for testing? 500,000 a day and where is your plan fortesting? if 500,000 a day and where is your plan for testing? if you could scroll back out... just pours a second, mr johnson. if you then scroll in, please. ——just johnson. if you then scroll in, please. —— just stop for a second. mr cummings says, "it will certainly be a like mr cummings says, "it will certainly be a_ like everything i mr cummings says, "it will certainly be a_ like everything else | be a expletive like everything else but it will be _ be a expletive like everything else but it will be the _ be a expletive like everything else but it will be the far _ be a expletive like everything else but it will be the far from _ be a expletive like everything else but it will be the far from the i but it will be the far from the worst of our but it will be the far from the worst of ou— but it will be the far from the worst of ou_ ups, | but it will be the far from the i worst of ou_ ups, think but it will be the far from the - worst of ou_ ups, think of worst of our expletive ups, think of billy hancock— worst of our expletive ups, think of billy hancock and _ worst of our expletive ups, think of billy hancock and so _ worst of our expletive ups, think of billy hancock and so on _ worst of our expletive ups, think of billy hancock and so on and - worst of our expletive ups, think of billy hancock and so on and so i billy hancock and so on and so forth. you cannot suggest that you were unaware of the opinion taken by your chief adviser over your secretary of state for health. you cannot suggest you were unaware of the concerns expressed by your cabinet secretary about the toxic reputation of your operation because he sent you a whatsapp directly and you cannot suggest they were not grave concerns expressed at downing street that there were people that would simply not come and work for you because of the atmosphere you allowed to develop. the atmosphere you allowed to develo -. . the atmosphere you allowed to develo -. , :, . the atmosphere you allowed to develo. , :, . : , develop. first of all, in politics, there is never _ develop. first of all, in politics, there is never a _ develop. first of all, in politics, there is never a time _ develop. first of all, in politics, there is never a time when i develop. first of all, in politics, there is never a time when you | develop. first of all, in politics, i there is never a time when you are not... if you are prime minister you are constantly being lobbied by somebody to sack sack somebody else. it's just i'm afraid what happens. it's just i'm afraid what happens. it's part of life. everybody is constantly militating against some other individual for some reason. i'm afraid that is the nature of it. it is powerfully true that this adviser in particular had a low opinion of the health secretary. i thought he was wrong. i stuck by the health secretary. i think the health secretary worked very hard... he may have had defects, but i thought that he was doing his best in very difficult circumstances and i thought he was a good communicator. can we have 303245? your first and then your second cabinet secretary communicate by whatsapped, page nine. mr case refers at the top of the page to how you have told mr cummings out right to stop talking to the media in his presence. "this place is just insane, to the media in his presence. "this place isjust insane, zero discipline" and then the bottom half of the page, "these people are so mad, madly self—defeating, it's hard to ask people to march. it should be to ask people to march. it should be to the sound of gunfire". and then the cabinet secretary, he is head of the cabinet secretary, he is head of the civil service? i've never seen a bunch of people less equipped to run a country. that's not a matter of atmospherics or lobbying or part of the general day in, day out friction within government, is it? yes. the general day in, day out friction within government, is it?— within government, is it? yes, i think it is- _ within government, is it? yes, i think it is- i— within government, is it? yes, i think it is. | think _ within government, is it? yes, i think it is. ithinkthat... - within government, is it? yes, i think it is. ithinkthat... if, - within government, is it? yes, i think it is. ithinkthat... if, as | think it is. i think that... if, as i say, if you had had the views of the mandarinate about the thatcher government in unexpurgated whatsappeds, my lady, ithink government in unexpurgated whatsappeds, my lady, i think you would have found they were pretty fruity. whatsapped conversation is... intended to be... though, clearly it isn't, ephemeral it tends to... to the pejorative and hyperbolic. i think that... the worst vice, in my view, would have been to have had an operation where everybody was so deferential and so reluctant to make waves that they never express their opinion, they never express their opinion, they never challenged, and they never doubted. it was much more important than people who are willing to doubt themselves and each other, and i think that that was creatively useful, rather than the reverse. some of these senior advisers didn't just lack deference, to use your word, mrjohnson. they doubted you and they doubted your ability and your competence, as you now know from having seen the material. could we have, please, 273901, page 188?
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