were having to do things that in future ought to be done by other departments or at the centre because it should have been a whole government response earlier. that is my reflection. and what about after the end of february when the cross government machine ramps up on the scale of the crisis is understood and steps have to be taken? to what extent had the department for health and social are got on top of promoting or suggesting the sort of countermeasures and infection control that ultimately were at the heart of the government response? from the end of february when the prime minister took the chair of cobra which was symbolically very important, when the chancellor of the duchy of lancaster got stuck in and you heard from him how he came to a cobra, was alarmed, asked some very good questions, followed that “p very good questions, followed that up with me and from... you might thinki up with me and from... you might think i was unhappy to receive that e—mail on those questions come on the contrary i was delighted and after a discussion about where we were up two he became a very strong ally and driving action all the way through the crisis. so from early march it shifted and it became a whole government effort. of course in march, april, the department continue to have to do much, much more, increasing amounts, and so we were under enormous pressure and enormous stress. we brought in more resources basically from wherever we could find them. and did everything that we could but that ramp up was extremely difficult. i’m that we could but that ramp up was extremely difficult.— extremely difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt. _ extremely difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt. i— extremely difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt, i didn't _ extremely difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt, i didn't realise - extremely difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt, i didn't realise mr- extremely difficult. i'm sorry to i interrupt, i didn't realise mr keith was moving on. going back to the time _ was moving on. going back to the time before the end of february and i appreciate you say central government should have got involved earlier, _ government should have got involved earlier, apart from the fact other government departments might have done some of the work that you felt you department had to come up with anything _ you department had to come up with anything not done stuff i appreciate you shouldn't have been doing it, you shouldn't have been doing it, you say— you shouldn't have been doing it, you say but— you shouldn't have been doing it, you say but was anything not done because _ you say but was anything not done because central government was not involved _ because central government was not involved earlier? i because central government was not involved earlier?— involved earlier? i think for the future the _ involved earlier? i think for the future the plans _ involved earlier? i think for the future the plans for _ involved earlier? i think for the future the plans for what - involved earlier? i think for the future the plans for what npi i involved earlier? i think for the l future the plans for what npi is involved earlier? i think for the i future the plans for what npi is to put in place, that is not a health department thing and false we got the health day structure is properly set up it was a cabinet office thing, quite rightly. it wasn't mid to late february that the system got going on designing npi is and we got to work designing that in the department in the area of the legal things that were needed but that sort of work, hopefully for next time will already be on the books, you know? we should already have published legal draft legislation, published legal draft legislation, published draft legislation that is ready in case it needs to be enacted. back then thanks to the preparation work, one of the areas of preparation of work that went well we had a draft bill that should already be published and scrutinised. so there are two things already. scrutinised. so there are two things alread . a ~ scrutinised. so there are two things alread . ~ , , ., _, already. make me presume and you have “ust already. make me presume and you have just said _ already. make me presume and you have just said it _ already. make me presume and you have just said it was _ already. make me presume and you have just said it was an _ already. make me presume and you have just said it was an incredibly i have just said it was an incredibly difficult task faced by the department of health and social care but by the beginning of march as you were grappling with the emerging scientific advice as to the state of the transmission fabric, how far it had got, how it had become sustained in the uk community, dealing with the absence of plans as you say in your book, having to formulate a battle plan, having to consider for the first time in 100 years some of these extraordinary stringent countermeasures, the dhs seat been under very considerable this was not an obligation that you sort, you were a late government department responding to a whole government until nation crisis? was dhsc under stress, was it in difficulty at the beginning of march? indie stress, was it in difficulty at the beginning of march?— stress, was it in difficulty at the beginning of march? we were under enormous stress _ beginning of march? we were under enormous stress and _ beginning of march? we were under enormous stress and free _ beginning of march? we were under enormous stress and free but - enormous stress and free but incredibly hard. could we have a test piece from yourself on the 7th of march to borisjohnson, page two. he asks you anything i can do to help. he asks you anything i can do to hel. ., . ., ., he asks you anything i can do to hel _ ., ., ., ., ~' , help. you are doing great, keep anoin. help. you are doing great, keep going- i'm _ help. you are doing great, keep going- i'miust _ help. you are doing great, keep going- i'm just a _ help. you are doing great, keep going. i'm just a kind _ help. you are doing great, keep going. i'mjust a kind of- help. you are doing great, keep going. i'm just a kind of you - help. you are doing great, keep going. i'm just a kind of you to. going. i'm just a kind of you to say, it's not easy, you're doing great too. follow the signs. and you ask for help in relation to all you invite him to start thinking about how he can contribute to a call for a public effort, a clarion call for hand washing and helping old folks, it is a great unifying clarion call for you to lead when the time is right. was that not an opportunity for you to say to the prime minister well, we absolutely have to get on top of the very real difficulties in the absence of real plans for infection control with the development and implementation of countermeasures, with the incredibly difficult issue of funding and planning for vaccines, shielding, all of the other areas that your department was grappling with. bi; department was grappling with. by this point, the prime minister, the cabinet office machine, and number ten were wholly engaged. the prime minister i think chaired the first cobra on the 2nd of march and so we had had almost a week of me being able to say all of that. so i think, you know, he asked if there was anything i could do to help and he said —— i sydney should have a whole national effort at this pretty much all bases. mr national effort at this pretty much all bases. ~ ., . ,, national effort at this pretty much all bases. ~ ., national effort at this pretty much allbases. ~ ., ., ., ., all bases. mr hancock, you are aware all bases. mr hancock, you are aware a very senior — all bases. mr hancock, you are aware a very senior civil— all bases. mr hancock, you are aware a very senior civil servant _ all bases. mr hancock, you are aware a very senior civil servant helen - a very senior civil servant helen mcnamara who was at one stage deputy cabinet secretary described it in evidence as having nuclear levels of confidence which she thought was a problem. do you reject the notion that in your dealings with your colleagues in terms of the impression that you gave, you were overconfident in presenting the undoubtedly extraordinarily difficult issues that your department faced? it depends ro . ress. department faced? it depends progress- -- _ department faced? it depends progress- -- it _ department faced? it depends progress. -- it depends - department faced? it depends progress. -- it depends who l department faced? it depends - progress. -- it depends who with. i progress. —— it depends who with. i had enormous doubts at this point, i would ask people i trusted for advice, i had long discussions with for instance chris wormald, chris whitty, with how we were responding, we work in a trusted environment, we were self—critical about how we were responding, that's only natural because we could see what was happening and we could see that we were in the middle of something that had not happened for decades and it was on a watch, so to speak. it's also, i also thought it was necessary and i can understand how some people would have interpreted the way that i now know that they did but i did not know any of this at the time because nobody raised issues with me at the time, i can see how, my sense of needing to keep the driving system forward might have had this impact on some people, especially those who were more sceptical of the need of the government to act, frankly. we have seen some of the evidence that the same people who are accusing me of overconfidence at the same time blocking the action that i was saying we needed. and so i can now see the dynamics of if they were against action being taken and i was going in the same way, we must do this, there was a huge amount of uncertainty and a huge amount of worry and i basically felt that was my professional duty to try to keep going, to keep driving forward. it was against action being taken? i don't want to point fingers because everyone was doing there best... watch government department were significantly against action being taken? for significantly against action being taken? ., . . taken? for instance the reluctance to net the taken? for instance the reluctance to get the covid _ taken? for instance the reluctance to get the covid machine _ taken? for instance the reluctance to get the covid machine going, i taken? for instance the reluctance l to get the covid machine going, will be seen some of the evidence of certain individuals thinking that movers are overreacting or the world had gone mad, there was a delay, an inexplicable delay at the centre to the publication of the action plan which came on the third and we've seen some evidence of why that happened so there's various examples of that but i basically felt i had to drive this thing forward and i felt that sense of responsibility. of course i understand now that some of course i understand now that some people reacted in the way that they did. but it was a time of enormous uncertainty and a time when ijust felt we needed to keep driving the system forward. indie felt we needed to keep driving the system forward.— felt we needed to keep driving the system forward. we will look at some ofthe system forward. we will look at some of the areas — system forward. we will look at some of the areas in — system forward. we will look at some of the areas in fact _ system forward. we will look at some of the areas in fact all— system forward. we will look at some of the areas in fact all of— system forward. we will look at some of the areas in fact all of the - of the areas in fact all of the areas you have identified, mr hancock. forthere areas you have identified, mr hancock. for there may have been evidence of the government machine being delayed or of action not being taken when it could reasonably have been taken. may the inquiry person and conclude from what you have said about the difficulties in getting the government machine going, that they were these instances are people pushing back or not doing perhaps what they should have done? that by and large, there was overall therefore an unavoidable delay? between the beginning of february and we will look now at the material available to you and to the machine and the lockdown decision of the 23rd of march. itjust did not have to have been that long.— to have been that long. could i answer that — to have been that long. could i answer that question _ answer that question contemporaneously and then with hindsight. contemporaneously people were doing theirjobs to the best of their ability. the cabinet secretary had a reason for not wanting to call a cover unnecessarily undertook 48 hours to persuade them and that was because he thought they were over years previously and he was worried it was used for cake negotiation purposes, i did not want it for communication purposes but rather for substantive reasons to get the government machine moving and people had good reasons at the time and may be because they were not faced like i was with the daily evidence of this growing crisis, they simply did not cotton on to the fact that this enormous waste was coming. so i don't think it's fair to criticise people for making professional judgements at the time. with hindsight, knowing what we know now, it is obvious to everybody that there should have been a whole government response from earlier but you've got to remember the fog of uncertainty and the lack of data. there weren't cases in the uk until the end of january, there weren't cases in the uk until the end ofjanuary, the there weren't cases in the uk until the end of january, the first uk death very sadly was on the 1st of march. so this was very, very early. you have described, mr hancock, how you saw the government machine trying to ramp itself up, you could see the difficulty is your evidence, the department and yourself encountered. you have given evidence about the instances in which people push back or whether there was a failure to act reasonably speedily so you must have been aware you were the secretary of state for health and social, that things were not being progressed as you in your own words would have wished so you must have been aware of the delay? yes. the inquiry has no interest in you and rightly so trying to not identify individuals to blame. you must have been aware that across government, systemically, the united kingdom government was failing to respond sufficiently, speedily, and well in this crisis? it's not a matter of hindsight, you could see it happening at the time? i matter of hindsight, you could see it happening at the time?- it happening at the time? i found frustrations _ it happening at the time? i found frustrations and _ it happening at the time? i found frustrations and areas _ it happening at the time? i found frustrations and areas i _ it happening at the time? i found frustrations and areas i wanted . it happening at the time? i found | frustrations and areas i wanted to push forward at the time. the evidence i am giving is that now having seen it from the inside, in many cases people have reasonable arguments for why they were doing that, they were behaving professionally. there was of course also this very unpleasant toxic culture. but i think that became a problem later rather than earlier. i think it was just reasonable people doing theirjobs saying really? there are known costs to the things i was going to do and on benefits because at this time it might have been contained within china so people saying are you sure you want to do this, do we want to tell the public we might shut down whole cities? i did want to do that so i am trying to empathise with how people reacted the way that they did at the time. you people reacted the way that they did at the time. ., ., ., at the time. you have mentioned lans and at the time. you have mentioned plans and the _ at the time. you have mentioned plans and the lack— at the time. you have mentioned plans and the lack of— at the time. you have mentioned plans and the lack of planning . at the time. you have mentioned plans and the lack of planning is| at the time. you have mentioned l plans and the lack of planning is an important part of the examination in this area. in your statement and you've acknowledged it already, you observe there was no book report on the shelf to tell us how to handle a pandemic but in a whatsapp message from you to mr cummings on the 12th of march, can we have 483813, page 68? in the context, to put this in its correct context, watching question time we need to be clear on winning the public argument so it's in the context of the debate that was then rumbling on, in fact, about reasonable worst—case scenario, herd immunity, behaviourfatigue and reasonable worst—case scenario, herd immunity, behaviour fatigue and so on? you are saying we are better prepared than other countries. by the 12th of march you were surely aware that meat were not better prepared than other countries? there was a jew have acknowledged it already there was a complete understanding that there was no scaled up test, trace, isolate, contact isolate system beyond the first few hundred cases and there was no effective means of infection control. there was no border plants or quarantine system in place. you knew there was sustained community transmission in the uk by this stage and you knew the infection fatality rate was 1% of all infected people would die. what did you say we are better prepared than other countries?— better prepared than other countries? ~ ~ �* , ., countries? well, i think there's two wa s to countries? well, i think there's two ways to answer _ countries? well, i think there's two ways to answer that _ countries? well, i think there's two ways to answer that question. - countries? well, i think there's two ways to answer that question. the | ways to answer that question. the first is this is about a communications question and the 12th of march, this was the end of the period in which we were concerned about the timing of lockdown on making sure we did not go too early and i changed my view on that on the 13th. ., ., , , 13th. can i... can i “ust interrupt ou to 13th. can i... can i “ust interrupt you to say h 13th. can i... can i “ust interrupt you to say that — 13th. can i... can i “ust interrupt you to say that as — 13th. can i... can ijust interrupt you to say that as a _ 13th. can i... can ijust interrupt you to say that as a reference i 13th. can i... can ijust interrupt you to say that as a reference to the debate which rumbled on for quite some time about the risk of going to early with any countermeasures that might be in place? countermeasures that might be in lace? ., , ., . countermeasures that might be in lace? ., . ,.,'., place? for instance i look back on the interview _ place? for instance i look back on the interview i _ place? for instance i look back on the interview i gave _ place? for instance i look back on the interview i gave on _ place? for instance i look back on the interview i gave on the - place? for instance i look back on the interview i gave on the 1st - place? for instance i look back on the interview i gave on the 1st of. the interview i gave on the 1st of march, the sunday morning, i said there is a case of going to early and the interview day interviewer said we all understand that so this was a widely shared belief which in hindsight was wrong because our doctorate was wrong as we discussed in the first module so this is a communications recommendation to the guy responsible for communications in number ten downing street. as it happened what i think this shows is the end of the road for this argument, this argument that we did not need to move, it was better to wait. this argument came to its end essentially at this point. the wait. this argument came to its end essentially at this point.— essentially at this point. the point about it being _ essentially at this point. the point about it being a _ essentially at this point. the point about it being a communications l about it being a communications debate is well made, you are obviously being asked in the context of watching question time. but your evidence so far, mr hancock, has been very much to the fact of the dhsc was a siren voice calling for more to be done, trying to push the government machine on but by the 12th of march, as you knew very well, the uk government had reached the end even by that late stage of the end even by that late stage of the containment phase of the strategy. the virus was rife. should you not have been taking this opportunity to tell your colleagues in government, telling the public, the citizens of this nation, this wall of death is coming and we have no effective means to deal with it other than to impose infection control measures urgently and significantly? in control measures urgently and significantly?— significantly? in my public communications - significantly? in my public communications you - significantly? in my public communications you will l significantly? in my public- communications you will know i had at that point been explaining that we might have to do that, yes. but i am also a team player and the government position was not yet so this is a message about how to best explain the government position of not yet but as i say, the position of not yet was running to the end of its road and it was on the very next day that i first told the prime minister that i thought we needed to lockdown. mas minister that i thought we needed to lockdown. ~ . , ., minister that i thought we needed to lockdown. ~ ., , ., ., lockdown. was that the 13th of march? correct. _ lockdown. was that the 13th of march? correct. it's— lockdown. was that the 13th of march? correct. it's not - lockdown. was that the 13th of march? correct. it's not in - lockdown. was that the 13th of| march? correct. it's not in your dia , march? correct. it's not in your diary, so-called, _ march? correct. it's not in your diary, so-called, should - march? correct. it's not in your diary, so-called, should say. . march? correct. it's not in your l diary, so-called, should say. the ent for diary, so-called, should say. the entry for the _ diary, so-called, should say. the entry for the 13th _ diary, so—called, should say. the entry for the 13th of march. makes no reference to you telling the prime minister this vital piece of information that he should lockdown immediately. there is a whole page on how you woke up from the dawn flight to belfast and edinburgh airport, there was the prime ministerial meeting, papers, a video call at 9:30am and according to your dog, you say i call the prime minister and told him we would have to do some very rapid backpedalling on the issue of herd immunity then rang patrick promised to do his best to repair the damage and you then met with first ministers in belfast, you then went to cardiff and so on. yes. ~ , yes. telling the prime minister of this country _ yes. telling the prime minister of this country for _ yes. telling the prime minister of this country for the _ yes. telling the prime minister of this country for the first _ yes. telling the prime minister of this country for the first time - yes. telling the prime minister of this country for the first time thatl this country for the first time that he had to call an immediate lockdown is surely worthy of some recollection, is it not? i is surely worthy of some recollection, is it not? i did not have full access _ recollection, is it not? i did not have full access to _ recollection, is it not? i did not have full access to my - recollection, is it not? i did not have full access to my papers l recollection, is it not? i did not i have full access to my papers for the writing of that and this came to light in researching the papers ahead of this inquiry, nessus after all formal public inquiry. what then happened, that was on the 13th which was the friday, on the 14th we had formal meetings in the cabinet room on this subject and i again made my views very clear. if you think, this shift from we should wait because we have got to get the timing right, too we must act now, happened quickly. so for instance, on the 13th of march, there was a g7 call and it was very struck especially by my italian opposite number because they had put in place the lockdown across the whole of italy by then and he was describing what they were up and he was describing what they were up to and it was harrowing.— up to and it was harrowing. forgive me. your up to and it was harrowing. forgive me- your book— up to and it was harrowing. forgive me. your book says _ up to and it was harrowing. forgive me. your book says the _ up to and it was harrowing. forgive me. your book says the account. up to and it was harrowing. forgive l me. your book says the account that follows has been meticulously pieced together for my formal papers, voice notes, communications, what's up, we know from the press and it records in 555 pages, all the relevant important events as you saw it concerning the coronavirus response. but there is no reference to you telling the prime minister to call for an immediate lockdown on the 13th of march? and yet know that there are no notes and no e—mails in there are no notes and no e—mails in the position of the inquiry because we have given to you that records a conversation? so i am required to ask you how sure are you that you told the prime minister that he had told the prime minister that he had to call for an immediate lockdown in a call on the 13th of march? i cannot remember it and it came to light in looking forward to this inquiry and what's more, they are corroborating evidence, if you like, is that, it is recorded that on the 14th which was the saturday, there was a significant discussion in number ten downing street but which i made this case again. all number ten downing street but which i made this case again.— i made this case again. all right. could we have _ i made this case again. all right. could we have 48313, _ i made this case again. all right. could we have 48313, page - i made this case again. all right. could we have 48313, page five, | could we have 48313, page five, please on—screen? this is a whatsapp message between you and mr cummings on the 23rd of january. evidence message between you and mr cummings on the 23rd ofjanuary. evidence has been given to this inquiry by mr cummings that he messaged you as we can see to ask you to what extent you investigate the preparations for something terrible like flu pandemic or the ebola virus? yes, you say, we have full plants up to and including pandemic levels regularly prepped and refreshed. yes. just posing there, that may give the impression whatever plans they were and however deficient or ineffective they were, they had been recently, because of they had been recently, because of the word refreshed, prepped and brought up to date?— the word refreshed, prepped and brought up to date? yeah. very fairl , brought up to date? yeah. very fairly. you _ brought up to date? yeah. very fairly, you accept _ brought up to date? yeah. very fairly, you accept in _ brought up to date? yeah. very fairly, you accept in your- brought up to date? yeah. very fairly, you accept in your book | brought up to date? new very fairly, you accept in your book and statement that the only plan that the voice was a strategy plan from 2011, in the field of central government response to the pandemic, not nhs surge capacity or bets but the central government response to a pandemic. that was the 2011 strategy. a single document based doctrinally on a completely inappropriate approach? yeah, this is what i thought _ inappropriate approach? yeah, this is what i thought at _ inappropriate approach? yeah, this is what i thought at the _ inappropriate approach? yeah, this is what i thought at the time. - inappropriate approach? yeah, this is what i thought at the time. but l is what i thought at the time. but told you that?— told you that? public health encland, told you that? public health england. the _ told you that? public health england, the world - told you that? public health england, the world health i england, the world health organization. let'sjust pause organization. let's just pause there, organization. let'sjust pause there, the world health organization does not of course hold the book for the uk plants. ihla does not of course hold the book for the uk plants-— the uk plants. no but it did anal sis the uk plants. no but it did analysis on _ the uk plants. no but it did analysis on which _ the uk plants. no but it did analysis on which countries| the uk plants. no but it did . analysis on which countries are the uk plants. no but it did - analysis on which countries are the best prepared and move in the second overall so all i can tell you is what i thought at the time, it is not what i think now. you what i thought at the time, it is not what i think now. you would not have found — not what i think now. you would not have found a _ not what i think now. you would not have found a the _ not what i think now. you would not have found a the world _ not what i think now. you would not have found a the world health - have found a the world health organization and set foot are our plans, you would have made departmental enquiries and when you make those enquiries, or plans, what information, what description of those plans were you given? it was essentially the _ those plans were you given? it was essentially the output _ those plans were you given? it was essentially the output of _ those plans were you given? it was essentially the output of the - essentially the output of the sickness exercise. the fact we had legislative plans available if necessary, we had both the legislative vehicle of the 1984 public health act and we had the draft bill which by then i will have known about. we had plans to get testing up and running within public health england, that obviously happened far too slowly thereafter but remember at this point public health england had performed extremely well in the early couple of weeks of the pandemic by developing a test within three days of receiving the data from china. we had by then in the department already discussed the vaccine and when it we had a vaccine platform that had been funded in order to respond to the ebola virus that had the potential to be used in response to this new virus, at oxford university. so with hindsight, it would have been for better if i had said i don't know about this, i really need your help, the plans that we have are not up to it but that we have are not up to it but that was not what, it was not what i thought i was being told at the time. ., ., ,, . ., , ., ,, ., time. you are the secretary of state for health and _ time. you are the secretary of state for health and social _ time. you are the secretary of state for health and social careful- time. you are the secretary of state for health and social careful stop - for health and social careful stop the country is facing an unknown but extremely serious pathogenic outbreak on the 23rd of january. nobody knows how far it's going to spread at that stage but you plainly need know what the plans are. my question was put to you to try and elicit what your understanding was from your staff and your advisors and officials of government central infection control plans, prosaically, to reach at schools? do quarantine people? we have hand washing, do we suffice the mac self isolate and have so for how long and isolate and have so for how long and is it individually or for a isolate and have so for how long and is it individually orfor a hassle? those sorts of issues. not pandemic bill proposals. why not? because thatis bill proposals. why not? because that is not the question i asked you? i want to know about what your understanding was of the state of play of the countermeasures, that is to say the infection control measures, not vaccine proposals or sickness reports which did not deal with countermeasures, or legislative proposals but prosaically, how as a country are we going to stop the virus from spreading if it comes? there's a number of things in your question that i need to correct. sickness was involved with legislative proposals. i suggested it wasn't involved _ legislative proposals. i suggested it wasn't involved with _ legislative proposals. i suggested it wasn't involved with proposals. it wasn't involved with proposals for countermeasures, it did not propose particular countermeasures. sickness was contrary to your initial question involved in legislative proposals, furthermore legislative proposals, furthermore legislative proposals, furthermore legislative proposals are countermeasures because you cannot isolate people against their will without legislation. so this attempt in the questioning to split different parts of the overall response is false, that is why i am responding in the way that i am to your question, the premise of the question was wrong. the reason that i held this confident view at that point is because for instance, the global health security index in 2019 said robert the second best prepared country in the world after the us and that we were the best in the world at the subcategory of rapid response to an mitigation of the spread of an epidemic. the who said the uk remains amongst the leaders worldwide and preparing for a pandemic. the soul turned out not to be true but it is what i was being told at the time. on the 6th of february 2020, there was a cabinet meeting, mr hancock. concluding, the secretary of state said... those two cases

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