positions. is that a fair analysis, do you think?— positions. is that a fair analysis, do you think? got completely but i understand — do you think? got completely but i understand their _ do you think? got completely but i understand their point _ do you think? got completely but i understand their point of - do you think? got completely but i understand their point of view. - do you think? got completely but i understand their point of view. for nicola sturgeon's evidence, she asks, do i agree with michael gove's decisions and whether collegiate? yes, and she also goes on to say there were some suggestions she made about policy the uk government did not follow—up. but she did not necessarily expect us to do so. it is in the nature of devolution that decision—making on a uk wide level we take by the uk government, it is better that is informed by the views of the devolved administrations, and i always thought to make colleagues aware of how devolved administrations felt and when i felt they were making a good argument, i would pass that on as clearly as i could. . , , would pass that on as clearly as i could. ., , , ., , could. the reality is that different arts of could. the reality is that different parts of the _ could. the reality is that different parts of the uk — could. the reality is that different parts of the uk have _ could. the reality is that different parts of the uk have different - parts of the uk have different problems in different ways and there may problems in different ways and there ntay be _ problems in different ways and there may be different conclusions on the epidemiological conclusions, in terms — epidemiological conclusions, in terms of— epidemiological conclusions, in terms of the positions on the ground in the _ terms of the positions on the ground in the regions, so there were bound to be _ in the regions, so there were bound to be difficulties.— to be difficulties. yes, that is ri . ht. to be difficulties. yes, that is riuht. if to be difficulties. yes, that is right- if i _ to be difficulties. yes, that is right- if! may. _ to be difficulties. yes, that is right. ifi may, i— to be difficulties. yes, that is right. ifi may, iwould - to be difficulties. yes, that is right. ifi may, iwould make| right. if i may, iwould make another point. you point out health is devolved, but there is a distinction between two different types of public health intervention. on one hand, the straightforward want of keeping ourselves healthy. that is a matter for the devolved administrations, but with pandemic, which is raging across one ireland, great britain, then i do think there is a case for saying there can and should be certain uk wide powers exercised at the centre. i think it is another question to draw those distinctions between two different health dimensions. a point michelle o'neill makes very fairly is that the island of ireland is a single epidemiological area. the island of ireland is a single epidemiologicalarea. it was the island of ireland is a single epidemiological area. it was always regarded so in terms of animal health. so, again, these are difficult issues to manage and i'd not say this is a view i hold passionately, but i think the whole question as to how you can ensure the uk government, short of the civil contingencies act, can say we need to override some of the independent decision—making, i think thatis independent decision—making, i think that is worth considering. being independent decision-making, i think that is worth considering.— that is worth considering. being on the coalface. _ that is worth considering. being on the coalface, as _ that is worth considering. being on the coalface, as you _ that is worth considering. being on the coalface, as you were, - that is worth considering. being on the coalface, as you were, of - that is worth considering. being on the coalface, as you were, of the l the coalface, as you were, of the interface — the coalface, as you were, of the interface between the united kingdom government and the devolved administrations, did you look at any time of— administrations, did you look at any time of the — administrations, did you look at any time of the nature of advice given try time of the nature of advice given by sage, — time of the nature of advice given by sage, to which of course the devotved — by sage, to which of course the devolved administrations were party, as to whether it was overly england centric? _ as to whether it was overly england centric? you will know from witness statements — centric? you will know from witness statements that a number of witnesses say it appears to them that the — witnesses say it appears to them that the commissioning of advice in sage, _ that the commissioning of advice in sage, because it was done generally by the _ sage, because it was done generally by the cabinet office was to england centric _ by the cabinet office was to england centric do _ by the cabinet office was to england centric. do you have a view on that? not a _ centric. do you have a view on that? not a strong — centric. do you have a view on that? not a strong view, no. i think it is in the nature of our university system that you will have people at imperial, oxford, elsewhere that will come from different parts of the uk and indeed from outside the uk. more cosmopolitan environment than the medical faculties and science faculties of our leading universities. i do not think so, no. another issue raised in the witness statements concerns the fiscal tevers — statements concerns the fiscal tevers of — statements concerns the fiscal levers of power available to the united — levers of power available to the united kingdom government. whereas public— united kingdom government. whereas public health is devolved, the means by which _ public health is devolved, the means by which you can address public health— by which you can address public health crisis are reserved to the united — health crisis are reserved to the united kingdom government in terms of the _ united kingdom government in terms of the money, the fiscal resources. the devolved administrations raised concerns— the devolved administrations raised concerns repeatedly, did they not, about _ concerns repeatedly, did they not, about that — concerns repeatedly, did they not, about that dichotomy that they were the ones. _ about that dichotomy that they were the ones, along with england, facing the ones, along with england, facing the crisis _ the ones, along with england, facing the crisis but the means of providing money to support the united — providing money to support the united kingdom, was that issue ever resotved _ united kingdom, was that issue ever resotved or— united kingdom, was that issue ever resolved or did itjust tends united kingdom, was that issue ever resolved or did it just tends to rumble — resolved or did it just tends to rumble on? it resolved or did it 'ust tends to rumble onvh resolved or did it 'ust tends to rumble on? .,, ., . ,, ., rumble on? it was a background issue. it did _ rumble on? it was a background issue. it did rumble. _ rumble on? it was a background issue. it did rumble. and - rumble on? it was a background issue. it did rumble. and it - rumble on? it was a background| issue. it did rumble. and it goes rumble on? it was a background i issue. it did rumble. and it goes to the heart of one of the challenges of devolution, which is that the executives in the devolved administrations will sometimes want to implement policy but it is the exchequer which ends up paying for it. devolved administrations, particularly the scottish government, do now have tax—raising, although they are in power so there is flexibility overpowering, in addition, there is now interministerial given across the uk which is enables some of these issues to be resolved between the treasury and finance ministers. i sympathise with the leaders of devolved administrations, the way in which devolution exists was itself constrained in the ability to act at certain moments of what we think is right. but these devolved arrangements are designed to ensure that there is an appropriate level of discretion and responsibility at each level. they will always be, between central government and devolved administrations or central government and local government sometimes, concerned that this subsidiary tier of government does not have the tax—raising powers necessary. taste not have the tax-raising powers necessary-— necessary. we are focusing on coronavirus — necessary. we are focusing on coronavirus. the _ necessary. we are focusing on coronavirus. the additional. coronavirus. the additional tax—raising powers of the scottish government in particular is a power oben _ government in particular is a power open to— government in particular is a power open to it. — government in particular is a power open to it, but it wasn't a power that— open to it, but it wasn't a power that was— open to it, but it wasn't a power that was first and foremost in the response — that was first and foremost in the response to the coronavirus crisis. we are _ response to the coronavirus crisis. we are dealing here with a massive need _ we are dealing here with a massive need for— we are dealing here with a massive need for fiscal resources from central— need for fiscal resources from central government to all parts of the united kingdom, so that really is, with— the united kingdom, so that really is, with respect, not relevant to this issue — is, with respect, not relevant to this issue. the question is, nicola sturgeon — this issue. the question is, nicola sturgeon wrote to boris johnson, this issue. the question is, nicola sturgeon wrote to borisjohnson, the prime _ sturgeon wrote to borisjohnson, the prime minister, on the 23rd of september, as you are aware because the disclosed material is therefore you, raising again what she perceived to be the lack of leaders within— perceived to be the lack of leaders within the — perceived to be the lack of leaders within the jurisdiction of the scottish— within the jurisdiction of the scottish administration, to be able to provide — scottish administration, to be able to provide economic support. it is reliant— to provide economic support. it is retiant and — to provide economic support. it is reliant and remains reliant on westminster government. does the factual— westminster government. does the factual road, along with colleagues in the _ factual road, along with colleagues in the devolved administrations, to the prime — in the devolved administrations, to the prime minister that this problem was incapable of resolution at the chancellor — was incapable of resolution at the chancellor of duchy level? it was a significant — chancellor of duchy level? it was a significant problem for devolved administrations. , ., , administrations. understandably, the devolved administrations _ administrations. understandably, the devolved administrations would - administrations. understandably, the devolved administrations would have| devolved administrations would have liked more money, and they would have liked more money to implement public health measures considered appropriate. but it is always the case, this was my point, that devolved administrations or in england local government, would like to have additional resource. but they don't have to worry about the broader fiscal framework and fiscal judgments upon which markets and others will make their decisions. so in that sense, that is wired is important to put it in context. —— thatis important to put it in context. —— that is why it is important. another thing i would say, it is the case that the formula ensures, quite rightly, that scotland, wales and northern ireland remain eight receive more generous funding per capita, than england, —— received more generous funding. mr capita, than england, -- received more generous funding. mr gove. .. mr gove. .. more generous funding. mr gove. .. mr gove- -- just — more generous funding. mr gove. .. mr gove- -- just pause. _ more generous funding. mr gove. .. mr gove. .. just pause, please. _ more generous funding. mr gove. .. mr gove. .. just pause, please. you - more generous funding. mr gove. .. mr gove. .. just pause, please. you are . gove. .. just pause, please. you are aware that _ gove. .. just pause, please. you are aware that my — gove. .. just pause, please. you are aware that my question _ gove. .. just pause, please. you are aware that my question is _ gove. .. just pause, please. you are aware that my question is framed . gove. .. just pause, please. you arej aware that my question is framed in the case _ aware that my question is framed in the case of— aware that my question is framed in the case of whether or not there was a significant — the case of whether or not there was a significant problem in the context of the _ a significant problem in the context of the coronavirus crisis and whether— of the coronavirus crisis and whether devolved administrations felt this— whether devolved administrations felt this issue fiscal was properly addressed. the question was not designed — addressed. the question was not designed to elicit political views on that— designed to elicit political views on that formula or the amount of support— on that formula or the amount of support given to devolved administrations.— support given to devolved administrations. , ., , support given to devolved administrations. , ., administrations. deal with facts and the fact are — administrations. deal with facts and the fact are relevant. _ administrations. deal with facts and the fact are relevant. let _ administrations. deal with facts and the fact are relevant. let mr - the fact are relevant. let mr gove- -- _ the fact are relevant. let mr gove- -- as _ the fact are relevant. let mr gove. .. as long _ the fact are relevant. let mr gove. .. as long as - the fact are relevant. let mr gove. .. as long as you - the fact are relevant. let mr gove. .. as long as you can l the fact are relevant. let mr - gove. .. as long as you can answer it gove... as long as you can answer it shortty _ gove. .. as long as you can answer it shortl . , , . ., gove. .. as long as you can answer it shortl. ,, . ., . ., , shortly. the essence of the charges that the devolved _ shortly. the essence of the charges that the devolved administrations l that the devolved administrations did not have enough resources, it is the case of... mn did not have enough resources, it is the case of- - -_ the case of... i'm sorry to interrunt. _ the case of. .. i'm sorry to interrunt. i— the case of... i'm sorry to interrupt, i am _ the case of. .. i'm sorry to interrupt, i am not- the case of... i'm sorry to interrupt, i am not askingj the case of... i'm sorry to - interrupt, i am not asking about the quantum _ interrupt, i am not asking about the quantum support, i am asking you to acknowledge that there was a problem that rumbled on and was required to be addressed, was taken to the prime minister _ be addressed, was taken to the prime minister of— be addressed, was taken to the prime minister. of course, because it is in the _ minister. of course, because it is in the nature of a devolved structure _ in the nature of a devolved structure dealing with a national crisis _ structure dealing with a national crisis that— structure dealing with a national crisis that this sort of fiscal issues _ crisis that this sort of fiscal issues would arise. that is all i am seeking _ issues would arise. that is all i am seeking to— issues would arise. that is all i am seeking to deduce, i don't want a lecture _ seeking to deduce, idon't want a lecture on— seeking to deduce, i don't want a lecture on the merits... was there a problem _ lecture on the merits... was there a problem that — lecture on the merits... was there a problem that the united kingdom government had to grapple with in the context of the response to the crisis? _ the context of the response to the crisis? , ., , , , , crisis? the problem is simple, the devolved administrations - crisis? the problem is simple, the devolved administrations wanted i crisis? the problem is simple, the - devolved administrations wanted more money. the case was that they were and indeed, the whole of the uk, had from the treasury and the chancellor of the exchequer, a generous response. ultimately, if the thrust of the question is, does the devolution settlement worth? it does because on the basis of how the exchequer funds the rest of the uk. turning to some of the other structures. cobra, it is obvious from _ structures. cobra, it is obvious from material that devolved administrations were invited to attend — administrations were invited to attend. they largely attended many of those _ attend. they largely attended many of those meetings. in due course, cobra _ of those meetings. in due course, cobra faded out of the picture somewhat, do you assess that they did not _ somewhat, do you assess that they did not... the uss that their attendance at —— did you assess that their attendance at covid o was sufficient? their attendance at covid 0 was sufficient?— their attendance at covid 0 was sufficient?_ i i their attendance at covid 0 was i sufficient?_ i think sufficient? yes. over time. i think the permanent — sufficient? yes. over time. i think the permanent secretary - sufficient? yes. over time. i think the permanent secretary at - sufficient? yes. over time. i think. the permanent secretary at number ten, the permanent secretary at number ten. simon — the permanent secretary at number ten, simon case, he opined on whether— ten, simon case, he opined on whether or— ten, simon case, he opined on whether or not the devolved administration should have a right of access— administration should have a right of access to covid o administration should have a right of access to covid 0 being a rule. is of access to covid 0 being a rule. is that _ of access to covid 0 being a rule. is that what — of access to covid 0 being a rule. is that what eventually to? they did attend _ is that what eventually to? they did attend by— is that what eventually to? they did attend by invitation, but large proportion of the covid o meetings? ithink— proportion of the covid o meetings? i think so _ proportion of the covid o meetings? i think so. . ., ,., proportion of the covid o meetings? i think so. . ., , ., , i think so. evidence also shows the alternative structure _ i think so. evidence also shows the alternative structure of— i think so. evidence also shows the alternative structure of dj - i think so. evidence also shows the alternative structure of dj mc, -- l alternative structure of dj mc, —— jm alternative structure of dj mc, —— jm 0 _ alternative structure of dj mc, —— jm 0 there — alternative structure of dj mc, —— jm c. there was a process by which you offer— jm c. there was a process by which you offer to — jm c. there was a process by which you offer to have regular calls were devotved _ you offer to have regular calls were devolved administrations. the evidence — devolved administrations. the evidence appears to suggest it took a considerable amount of time, from may to— a considerable amount of time, from may to december, for a regular system — may to december, for a regular system of— may to december, for a regular system of liaison to be set up, through— system of liaison to be set up, through because you held, and also that the _ through because you held, and also that the first ministers were not invited — that the first ministers were not invited to— that the first ministers were not invited to covid o that the first ministers were not invited to covid 0 until october. there _ invited to covid 0 until october. there was— invited to covid 0 until october. there was a hiatus between may and the autumn— there was a hiatus between may and the autumn when they were out of the toob _ the autumn when they were out of the toob woutd _ the autumn when they were out of the loop. would you agree? no. the autumn when they were out of the loop. would you agree?— loop. would you agree? no. because there were regular— loop. would you agree? no. because there were regular because _ loop. would you agree? no. because there were regular because of - loop. would you agree? no. because there were regular because of a - there were regular because of a variety of kinds with my officials and officials in devolved administrations. covid o and cobra and thejm c are simply a range of mechanisms. others exist, in order to ensure that the devolved administrations and others were part of our broader conversations. there were of course. _ of our broader conversations. there were of course, mr _ of our broader conversations. there were of course, mr gove, _ of our broader conversations. there were of course, mr gove, meetings on other— were of course, mr gove, meetings on other various _ were of course, mr gove, meetings on other various levels, from professor sir chris— other various levels, from professor sir chris whitty on a health level. i sir chris whitty on a health level. i am _ sir chris whitty on a health level. i am asking — sir chris whitty on a health level. i am asking on your level of government. the dj mc process was not operated at all. you put into place _ not operated at all. you put into place that — not operated at all. you put into place that process by which you called _ place that process by which you called the das regularly, but that did not— called the das regularly, but that did not start until the late autumn. meanwhile, at covid o did not start until the late autumn. meanwhile, at covid 0 level, the first ministers were not invited untit— first ministers were not invited until october. that is from your witness — until october. that is from your witness statement. was there in fact hiatus _ witness statement. was there in fact hiatus between may and a late autumn in which _ hiatus between may and a late autumn in which the _ hiatus between may and a late autumn in which the das at this political tevet— in which the das at this political tevet did — in which the das at this political level did not get the same degree of access— level did not get the same degree of access to _ level did not get the same degree of access to the uk government they had hitherto— access to the uk government they had hitherto and thereafter? | access to the uk government they had hitherto and thereafter?— hitherto and thereafter? i think hiatus implies _ hitherto and thereafter? i think hiatus implies halt, _ hitherto and thereafter? i think hiatus implies halt, there - hitherto and thereafter? i think hiatus implies halt, there was i hitherto and thereafter? i think| hiatus implies halt, there was a diminution but not hold. taste hiatus implies halt, there was a diminution but not hold. we can live with that. you _ diminution but not hold. we can live with that. you can _ diminution but not hold. we can live with that. you can say _ diminution but not hold. we can live with that. you can say no _ diminution but not hold. we can live with that. you can say no doubt - diminution but not hold. we can live with that. you can say no doubt thatj with that. you can say no doubt that you but— with that. you can say no doubt that you put into — with that. you can say no doubt that you put into place the rules because he recognised there was a need for it? ~ , ,., , he recognised there was a need for it? �* , ,., , wh he recognised there was a need for it?_ why in _ he recognised there was a need for it?_ why in general - it? absolutely. why in general terms, there _ it? absolutely. why in general terms, there are _ it? absolutely. why in general terms, there are letters - it? absolutely. why in general terms, there are letters to - it? absolutely. why in general| terms, there are letters to you it? absolutely. why in general - terms, there are letters to you from the devolved administration first ministers — the devolved administration first ministers between the 2nd of april, 29th of— ministers between the 2nd of april, 29th of april, 215t of may, 11th of june. _ 29th of april, 215t of may, 11th of june, september, all saying, to use mr drake _ june, september, all saying, to use mr drake for's words, i have repeatedly called for our predictable rhythm of engagement. why did _ predictable rhythm of engagement. why did it take so long to set up that process? i why did it take so long to set up that process?— why did it take so long to set up that process? i think we did have a tood level that process? i think we did have a good level of— that process? i think we did have a good level of engagement. - that process? i think we did have a good level of engagement. not - that process? i think we did have a good level of engagement. not at| that process? i think we did have a i good level of engagement. not at the level of predictability that mark drakeford level of predictability that mark dra keford wanted, level of predictability that mark drakeford wanted, but i had the opportunity to talk to him in the margins of the british irish council last friday and explained i was going to. i reflected then on the nature of our engagement. he felt while it was not perfect, it was good. while it was not perfect, it was tood. ., while it was not perfect, it was ood. ., 4' ., , while it was not perfect, it was tood. ., ~' ., , . while it was not perfect, it was ood. ., 4' ., , , ., good. you know very well it is not our good. you know very well it is not your place — good. you know very well it is not your place to _ good. you know very well it is not your place to give _ good. you know very well it is not your place to give hearsay - good. you know very well it is not | your place to give hearsay evidence and account from another witness and we are _ and account from another witness and we are asking you for your views. the correspondence shows mark drakeford in particular was keen to -et drakeford in particular was keen to get the _ drakeford in particular was keen to get the government to assure this process, _ get the government to assure this process, and it took months to do so even _ process, and it took months to do so even though— process, and it took months to do so even though it was an easy process. you are _ even though it was an easy process. you are familiar no doubt with the correspondence which shows mark drakeford — correspondence which shows mark drakeford repeatedly asking for the united _ drakeford repeatedly asking for the united government's intentions for communications with devolved governments to be made clear. cobra has been _ governments to be made clear. cobra has been stood down, i have called repeatedly — has been stood down, i have called repeatedly for a predictable rhythm of engagement. do you agree with that? _ of engagement. do you agree with that? , ., ., ., ' , that? yes, and i wrote on the 21st of ma to that? yes, and i wrote on the 21st of may to mark — that? yes, and i wrote on the 21st of may to mark drakeford. .. - that? yes, and i wrote on the 21st of may to mark drakeford. .. that| that? yes, and i wrote on the 21st. of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before. of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before- yes. _ of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before. yes, and _ of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before. yes, and i _ of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before. yes, and i note _ of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before. yes, and i note variety - of may to mark drakeford. .. that is before. yes, and i note variety of. before. yes, and i note variety of calls were _ before. yes, and i note variety of calls were first _ before. yes, and i note variety of calls were first ministers - calls were first ministers thereafter as well. so pretty regular contact. to thereafter as well. so pretty regular contact.— thereafter as well. so pretty regular contact. to what extent where their _ regular contact. to what extent where their difficulties - regular contact. to what extent where their difficulties in - regular contact. to what extent where their difficulties in the i where their difficulties in the relationship with the devolved administrations concerning the substance of public communications? pubiic— substance of public communications? public health messages.— substance of public communications? public health messages. there was an occasion in which _ public health messages. there was an occasion in which the _ public health messages. there was an occasion in which the scottish - occasion in which the scottish government had its own actor in and they were anxious to ensure that acronym took precedence over our hands, face space communication. there was some disagreement over that. given the uk wide nature of the bbc and our broadcasters and so on, i was of the view, others in government much more strongly, that it was right to use hands, face, space and the evidence for the scottish government's approach was not strong. however, the first minister of scotland argued she found a level of confidence of handling the pandemic within scotland and that meant it was appropriate for her to use a particular form appropriate for her to use a particularform of appropriate for her to use a particular form of communication. appropriate for her to use a particularform of communication. i think both views have their merits. had their overall been perception on the part— had their overall been perception on the part of— had their overall been perception on the part of the devolved administrations that england centric announcements, mr gove, were not sufficiently— announcements, mr gove, were not sufficiently understood by the united — sufficiently understood by the united kingdom government to be limited _ united kingdom government to be limited only to england, that there were pronunciations about public health _ were pronunciations about public health messages and communications and so _ health messages and communications and so on _ health messages and communications and so on that appeared to be assumed _ and so on that appeared to be assumed by the united kingdom government to be applicable to the whole _ government to be applicable to the whole nation rather thanjust whole nation rather than just england? whole nation rather thanjust england? you are aware of the material — england? you are aware of the material where the devolved administration say you overstepped the mark— administration say you overstepped the mark in terms of the implications. | the mark in terms of the implications.— the mark in terms of the imlications. ., ., , implications. i do not believe it led to any _ implications. i do not believe it led to any particular _ implications. i do not believe it led to any particular detriment| implications. i do not believe it l led to any particular detriment to the effective delivery of policy, though of course at times either the scottish or welsh or northern irish governments might have felt they could have communicated things better. but on the whole, when you are dealing with a virus whose impact is the same across the uk, the clarity of communications, hans face space, i believe is helpful. was the scottish government informed in advance _ was the scottish government informed in advance of the messaging aren't stay—at—home, stay alert. | in advance of the messaging aren't stay-at-home, stay alert.- stay-at-home, stay alert. i don't believe so- _ stay-at-home, stay alert. i don't believe so. so _ stay-at-home, stay alert. i don't believe so. so this _ stay-at-home, stay alert. i don't believe so. so this is _ stay-at-home, stay alert. i don't believe so. so this is a _ stay-at-home, stay alert. i don't believe so. so this is a good i believe so. so this is a good example _ believe so. so this is a good example of— believe so. so this is a good example of a _ believe so. so this is a good example of a failure - believe so. so this is a good example of a failure of- example of a failure of communication. that messaging was not discussed unabated with the scottish— not discussed unabated with the scottish government in advance. i don't scottish government in advance. i don't believe it was, but then i don't believe it was, but then i don't believe it resulted in any particular detriment to the handling of the pandemic. it is particular detriment to the handling of the pandemic.— of the pandemic. it is an obvious oint, of the pandemic. it is an obvious point. why _ of the pandemic. it is an obvious point. why was _ of the pandemic. it is an obvious point, why was it _ of the pandemic. it is an obvious point, why was it not _ of the pandemic. it is an obvious point, why was it not discussed i of the pandemic. it is an obvious| point, why was it not discussed in advance? — point, why was it not discussed in advance? ., , , advance? there were many things we sou . ht to advance? there were many things we sought to discuss _ advance? there were many things we sought to discuss with _ advance? there were many things we sought to discuss with the _ advance? there were many things we sought to discuss with the scottish i sought to discuss with the scottish government and devolved administrations but not every occasion was exhausted. i don't want to make to much of a political point but it is a matter of fact... with; but it is a matter of fact. .. why was that particular _ but it is a matter of fact... why was that particular important change. _ was that particular important change, perhaps one of the most important — change, perhaps one of the most important changes of public messaging in the course of the crisis. — messaging in the course of the crisis. not _ messaging in the course of the crisis, not communicated to the scottish— crisis, not communicated to the scottish government first? we scottish government first? - communicated a great deal, not everything with them, and i want to be fair. the first thing is, there had been failures in how we communicated to devolved governments at times, but it is also the case that the scottish government, and i admire the way in which nicola sturgeon handled covid in general, but the scottish government was and is led by a political party that has a desire to generate a particular cause for grievance and objection to the uk government's constitutional position and broader policy position. so it will be the case that there will be a temptation for some in the scottish government and scottish national party to exaggerate the impact of a mistake oran exaggerate the impact of a mistake or an error in order to feed a broader political mission. do you acknowledge. — broader political mission. do you acknowledge, mr _ broader political mission. do you acknowledge, mr gove, - broader political mission. do you acknowledge, mr gove, that i broader political mission. do you i acknowledge, mr gove, that nicola sturgeon _ acknowledge, mr gove, that nicola sturgeon and mark drakeford and arlene _ sturgeon and mark drakeford and arlene foster robustly rejected any notion _ arlene foster robustly rejected any notion that they acted for such purely— notion that they acted for such purely venal political motives? | purely venal political motives? would purely venal political motives? i would draw a distinction. purely venal political motives? i would draw a distinction. do i purely venal political motives? i | would draw a distinction. do you acce -t would draw a distinction. do you accept they _ would draw a distinction. do you accept they say _ would draw a distinction. do you accept they say that _ would draw a distinction. do you accept they say that i _ would draw a distinction. do you accept they say that i in - would draw a distinction. do you accept they say that i in their i accept they say that i in their witness — accept they say that i in their witness statements at this inquiry? i do, _ witness statements at this inquiry? i do. but _ witness statements at this inquiry? i do. but i — witness statements at this inquiry? i do, but i also think that it is a matter of that mark drakeford and arlene foster belong to political parties that believe in the maintenance of the united kingdom and nicola sturgeon does not. consideration of vulnerable and at-risk— consideration of vulnerable and at—risk groups in decision—making. another— at—risk groups in decision—making. another important area of your work. that was _ another important area of your work. that was the — another important area of your work. that was the chairing for a while of the gps _ that was the chairing for a while of the gps and its focus on vulnerable children— the gps and its focus on vulnerable children and the non—shielding vulnerable. in relation to children, what _ vulnerable. in relation to children, what sort — vulnerable. in relation to children, what sort of— vulnerable. in relation to children, what sort of issues did the gps consider— what sort of issues did the gps consider in those months between march _ consider in those months between march and — consider in those months between march and may, such as free school meals. _ march and may, such as free school meals. the — march and may, such as free school meals, the risk of exploitation or abuse? _ meals, the risk of exploitation or abuse? give us an idea as to what issues _ abuse? give us an idea as to what issues came — abuse? give us an idea as to what issues came in front of you. exactly those. issues came in front of you. exactly those- knowing _ issues came in front of you. exactly those. knowing children _ issues came in front of you. exactly those. knowing children would i issues came in front of you. exactly those. knowing children would be i issues came in front of you. exactly l those. knowing children would be out of school, a variety of factors considered. eligibility forfree school meals is related to poverty, children out of school, we would have the support of a free school meal when in school not having its because they are not at school. that creates an issue for some of the poorest in society. it is also the case that children being out of school will mean that the ability of professional teachers and others to detect if a child is at risk of abuse or neglect diminishes. the risk of domestic violence and the risk of domestic violence and the risk of domestic violence and the risk of children either being witness to it being the victims of it increases. also, younger children risk having their developments disrupted because they're not in environment in which they are socialising. environment in which they are socialising-— environment in which they are socialisint. . ., . socialising. the committee... when the committee _ socialising. the committee... when the committee was _ socialising. the committee... when the committee was effectively i the committee was effectively disbanded in may of 2020, where did that consideration go to, to which body— that consideration go to, to which body with— that consideration go to, to which body with those functions transferred?— body with those functions transferred? . , ., transferred? principally covid 0. and did those _ transferred? principally covid 0. and did those issues _ transferred? principally covid 0. and did those issues remain i transferred? principally covid o. | and did those issues remain with covid _ and did those issues remain with covid 0 _ and did those issues remain with covid o thereafter western yellow yes, but _ covid o thereafter western yellow yes, but it — covid o thereafter western yellow yes, but it was also the case that it was— yes, but it was also the case that it was created early on in the fight against _ it was created early on in the fight against the virus. at that point, we had to— against the virus. at that point, we had to rapidly adjust to make sure that public services were aware of the new _ that public services were aware of the new and unprecedented strains were there. by the time covid o and the covid _ were there. by the time covid o and the covid max task force work established, we were looking at the effectiveness of delivery. and, for example. — effectiveness of delivery. and, for example. i— effectiveness of delivery. and, for example, i think it was the case that .. ., ., , ., that we had already agreed free school meals _ that we had already agreed free school meals would _ that we had already agreed free school meals would be - that we had already agreed free school meals would be made i that we had already agreed free i school meals would be made available to children during holiday and other periods in order to take into account some of those questions. can we have a briefing date, the 19th of october? _ we have a briefing date, the 19th of october? on pages eight and nine, i believe _ october? on pages eight and nine, i believe there is a reference to a fairly— believe there is a reference to a fairly serious observation made by you about — fairly serious observation made by you about the failure of some departments to respond to your proposed — departments to respond to your proposed debate concerning packages of interventions to tackle disproportionate immediate health impacts _ disproportionate immediate health impacts. in the second paragraph, you say, _ impacts. in the second paragraph, you say, it — impacts. in the second paragraph, you say. it is — impacts. in the second paragraph, you say, it is not going to be possible _ you say, it is not going to be possible this pack of interventions in the _ possible this pack of interventions in the statement. could you give us, please, _ in the statement. could you give us, please, some flavour of the extent of your— please, some flavour of the extent of your disappointment or the failure — of your disappointment or the failure in _ of your disappointment or the failure in terms of the responses from _ failure in terms of the responses from the — failure in terms of the responses from the other departments smack you refer to _ from the other departments smack you refer to a _ from the other departments smack you referto a number of from the other departments smack you refer to a number of failed respondents and departments. how did this come _ respondents and departments. how did this come about? | respondents and departments. how did this come about?— this come about? i think in a way the letter speaks _ this come about? i think in a way the letter speaks for _ this come about? i think in a way the letter speaks for itself. i this come about? i think in a way the letter speaks for itself. of i the letter speaks for itself. of course, we are dealing with the specific impact on the most vulnerable in our society, office i should say,... that vulnerable in our society, office i should say.---_ vulnerable in our society, office i should say,... at i'm very sorry, in litht of should say,... at i'm very sorry, in light of the — should say,... at i'm very sorry, in light of the time _ should say,... at i'm very sorry, in light of the time and _ should say,... at i'm very sorry, in light of the time and your - light of the time and your propensity to comment politically, can i propensity to comment politically, can i ask— propensity to comment politically, can i ask you, please, just answer the question. that is, how was it that the — the question. that is, how was it that the departments you criticised came _ that the departments you criticised came to _ that the departments you criticised came to fail to respond to your call to contribute to this package of interventions on which you were working? — interventions on which you were workin: ? . . . interventions on which you were workint ? ., , ., , ., ., working? that is a question that retuires working? that is a question that requires extensive _ working? that is a question that requires extensive political i requires extensive political commentary. requires extensive political commentary-— requires extensive political commentary. requires extensive political commenta .~ , ., , requires extensive political commenta .~ , . , commentary. well, my lady. you are not commentary. well, my lady. you are rrot the — commentary. well, my lady. you are not the first _ commentary. well, my lady. you are not the first politician _ commentary. well, my lady. you are not the first politician to - commentary. well, my lady. you are not the first politician to make . are not the first politician to make are not the first politician to make a comment— are not the first politician to make a comment in— are not the first politician to make a comment in this _ are not the first politician to make a comment in this inquiry. - are not the first politician to make a comment in this inquiry. it- are not the first politician to make a comment in this inquiry. it is. a comment in this inquiry. it is time _ a comment in this inquiry. it is time more _ a comment in this inquiry. it is time more than _ a comment in this inquiry. it is time more than anything i a comment in this inquiry. it is time more than anything else. j time more than anything else. structuratty, _ time more than anything else. structurally, just— time more than anything else. structurally, just in _ time more than anything else. structurally, just in terms i time more than anything else. structurally, just in terms of. structurally, just in terms of government administration, why have these _ government administration, why have these departments fallen short? just in terms _ these departments fallen short? just in terms of— these departments fallen short? just in terms of their work product, they had failed _ in terms of their work product, they had failed to do what you ask them to do— had failed to do what you ask them to do and _ had failed to do what you ask them to do and you disappointed by their response — to do and you disappointed by their response. why administratively had they dropped the ball? well, response. why administratively had they dropped the ball?— response. why administratively had they dropped the ball? well, when i talk about political _ they dropped the ball? well, when i talk about political commentary, i l talk about political commentary, i don't mean partisan, i mean... just answer the — don't mean partisan, i mean... just answer the question. i _ don't mean partisan, i mean... just answer the question. i will, - don't mean partisan, i mean... just answer the question. i will, but i don't mean partisan, i mean... just answer the question. i will, but the j answer the question. i will, but the ke thin answer the question. i will, but the key thing is — answer the question. i will, but the key thing is the _ answer the question. i will, but the key thing is the question _ answer the question. i will, but the key thing is the question requires l key thing is the question requires extensive answering. there is a tension between being brief and answering your question properly. i note that you want us to keep our answers brief, but it is also the case that you want them answered effectively, i will have to go on at some length. effectively, i will have to go on at some length-— effectively, i will have to go on at some lentth. �* ., ., , some length. i've heard some threats in my time. — some length. i've heard some threats in my time. but— some length. i've heard some threats in my time, but that _ some length. i've heard some threats in my time, but that takes _ some length. i've heard some threats in my time, but that takes the - in my time, but that takes the biscuit — in my time, but that takes the biscuit i— in my time, but that takes the biscuit. i will... in my time, but that takes the biscuit. iwill... it in my time, but that takes the biscuit. i will. . ._ in my time, but that takes the biscuit. i will... it was a promise, not a biscuit. i will... it was a promise, rrot a threat- _ biscuit. i will... it was a promise, not a threat. what _ biscuit. i will... it was a promise, not a threat. what was _ biscuit. i will... it was a promise, not a threat. what was the i biscuit. i will... it was a promise, i not a threat. what was the ambitious acka . e not a threat. what was the ambitious -tackae of not a threat. what was the ambitious package of interventions _ not a threat. what was the ambitious package of interventions you - not a threat. what was the ambitious package of interventions you are i package of interventions you are hoping _ package of interventions you are hoping to— package of interventions you are hoping to announce? _ package of interventions you are hoping to announce?— package of interventions you are hoping to announce? there was a rante hoping to announce? there was a range that _ hoping to announce? there was a range that i _ hoping to announce? there was a range that i was _ hoping to announce? there was a range that i was keen _ hoping to announce? there was a range that i was keen that - hoping to announce? there was a range that i was keen that we i hoping to announce? there was a i range that i was keen that we should announce to help the disabled, to better monitor the impact of the virus on those from visible ethnic minorities and deal in particular with the plight of children face. it is often the case that whoever happens to be the cabinet minister or the chair of happens to be the cabinet minister orthe chair ofany happens to be the cabinet minister or the chair of any cabinet committee will write letters, chiding government departments for theirfailure to deliver chiding government departments for their failure to deliver on a variety of areas. i have done so on everything from levelling up to reform the planning system to a variety of other areas. of course, this is a particularly important issue, because of the nature of the pandemic and the vulnerability of the groups concerned, but it is not a unique example of me or someone doing myjob attempting to challenge other government departments to raise their game. how long did it take? a few more weeks, but at every stage i was progress chasing in my role as mco. as anyone doing theirjob would have and has moving to an entirely separate issue, the local lockdown structure and the summer. the body which ou structure and the summer. the body which you chaired _ structure and the summer. the body which you chaired played _ structure and the summer. the body which you chaired played a _ which you chaired played a significant role in the imposition of these — significant role in the imposition of these ad hoc local lockdown is in the summer— of these ad hoc local lockdown is in the summer of 2020. the evidence shows— the summer of 2020. the evidence shows tocat— the summer of 2020. the evidence shows local action committee might recommend an area goes into lockdown, _ recommend an area goes into lockdown, it would go to you and you decide _ lockdown, it would go to you and you decide whether or not lockdown should — decide whether or not lockdown should be imposed. it is obvious that lester was one of the places, the first— that lester was one of the places, the first place are made

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