thing is we have heard this morning is that sir patrick vallance was suggesting that the scientists put a lot of time into working out when the best moment was to put those interventions in place, that we saw, and then he said, by the time they got to that weekend of 14th, 15th of got to that weekend of 1ath, 15th of march, they realise you could not predict in that precise a way, and they should have potentially gone earlier with that. it was interesting, quite a big issue at the time, he says that he was arguing as early as that weekend for london to go into a lockdown ahead of the rest of the country, he was saying it was because they looked at the data and it worked out that the disease had progressed much faster, more widespread than they thought, as he put it, further along in the pandemic than they had thought they would be. and that is what changed the dial that weekend. and who was at that put the brakes on that decision about london lockdown? it was the chancellor. that, he has skin in the game now, for someone who is prime minister. he talked about how there could have been a learning of lessons when there was a second lockdown, it we could have acted earlier then. rishi sunak, the wrong word is implicated, but maybe we are talking about pressure from the secretary from the then chancellor. that was the indication, he did not explicitly say that the then chancellor rishi sunak put the brakes on it, he said that he reads this in a meeting and that the chancellor had not looked terribly pleased at that moment, and he said it was because the chance i would have been thinking about the impact on the economy, that london was the engine room of the economy. he hasn't gone much further into detail. i am sure that will come back over the course of the inquiry, if not today, as to the treasury response, and how it came to be. he also said, did make it clear, that while he thought lockdown should have gone earlier, really, he is talking a few days. it was conceivable that could have been a few days before that in the timing thanit few days before that in the timing than it actually did. at the time none of us really knew what lockdown actually was. the point was made known had even used the term lockdown. there was plenty of pressure on politicians not to lockdown. even chris petit himself was concerned about the adverse effect on the likes of mental health —— even chris petit. and the impact that was hard on the economy. there were all those factors that they were looking at, as well as controlling the disease and stopping the spread of the disease. back at the spread of the disease. back at the time they were having to think, what would be the impact on the economy, the impact on peoples individual well—being, their mental health effects of being isolated, the physical health effects of not going to get things treated that the otherwise would have done. and we have seen the effects of that play out ever since. that was all coming into this as well. what was interesting and what ministers are likely to have to answer, was that something else that sir patrick vallance made plain today is that he felt that while the site just looking at all of this advice, there was not the operational plan in place to move quickly once they had decided to hit the go button on those restrictions. he talks about them as non—pharmaceutical interventions, that actually those plans were not in place. one interesting detail i got was that he was talking about, we got used to seeing him going in and out of downing street all the time. chief scientific adviser, that is not normal for scientific adviser, that is not normalfor them, scientific adviser, that is not normalforthem, his scientific adviser, that is not normalfor them, his predecessor scientific adviser, that is not normal for them, his predecessor at pretty much met the prime minister, this was entirely different scenario, the role is not policy, not operational, they are to give advice. plenty of, more is not normal, in covid. we can go back to the inquiry now. this is an issue that you touch on in your statements. you don't perhaps go into it and quite as much detail. do you agree with these sentiments? i do. i did not win it first happened. in other words, i do. i did not win it first happened. in otherwords, when i do. i did not win it first happened. in other words, when it was first— happened. in other words, when it was first said, we are following this science, my reaction was, good, they are _ this science, my reaction was, good, they are listening to us, because that is_ they are listening to us, because that is hot— they are listening to us, because that is not always the case in government, for reasons i have laid out. government, for reasons i have laid out but— government, for reasons i have laid out but i_ government, for reasons i have laid out. but i think that their way in which _ out. but i think that their way in which this— out. but i think that their way in which this was both hard and possibly— which this was both hard and possibly meant, in terms of stavishty _ possibly meant, in terms of slavishly following their science, or being — slavishly following their science, or being it — slavishly following their science, or being it at all times, is completely wrong. you can't. i also totatty _ completely wrong. you can't. i also totally agree, there is no such thing — totally agree, there is no such thing as— totally agree, there is no such thing as the science, science by its defihitioh— thing as the science, science by its definition is— thing as the science, science by its definition is a moving body of knowledge that tries to overturn things— knowledge that tries to overturn things by— knowledge that tries to overturn things by testing the whole time. you see — things by testing the whole time. you see when it was first used, you are not opposed to it, was it something about that number of times, the repetition of it, or perhaps the circumstances in which it was used, at what point did it become a negative thing for you? pretty quickly. initially, i thought, good, they are listening and they— thought, good, they are listening and they want to hear the science, that is— and they want to hear the science, that is the — and they want to hear the science, that is the right thing for them to do, that is the right thing for them to do. but _ that is the right thing for them to do. but it's— that is the right thing for them to do, but it's became taken both interpreted widely in the press, and again— interpreted widely in the press, and again possibly inside government as well, again possibly inside government as wett, as— again possibly inside government as well, as a _ again possibly inside government as well, as a sort of direct, following the science, — well, as a sort of direct, following the science, slavish following of it, the science, slavish following of it. which — the science, slavish following of it. which i— the science, slavish following of it, which i agree these are difficult _ it, which i agree these are difficult ministerial decisions, precisely what needs to be taken by ministers _ precisely what needs to be taken by ministers to integrate the different forms— ministers to integrate the different forms of— ministers to integrate the different forms of evidence and make those almost _ forms of evidence and make those almost impossible judgment calls, which _ almost impossible judgment calls, which the — almost impossible judgment calls, which the science can't make and should _ which the science can't make and should not— which the science can't make and should not make. did _ should not make. did you speak to borisjohnson or others, asking them not to use that phrase? i others, asking them not to use that hrase? ., , phrase? i cannot remember whether we did that. phrase? i cannot remember whether we did that they — phrase? i cannot remember whether we did that. they knew— phrase? i cannot remember whether we did that. they knew that _ phrase? i cannot remember whether we did that. they knew that this _ phrase? i cannot remember whether we did that. they knew that this was - did that. they knew that this was damaging — did that. they knew that this was damaging at one point and i think it did get— damaging at one point and i think it did get so— damaging at one point and i think it did get so often two, we are being informed — did get so often two, we are being informed by, and i think the prime minister— informed by, and i think the prime minister says that at some point, we are iteing _ minister says that at some point, we are being informed by the science, guite _ are being informed by the science, quite early— are being informed by the science, quite early on, in march or april, i can't _ quite early on, in march or april, i can't remember when. quite early on, in march or april, i can't rememberwhen. in quite early on, in march or april, i can't remember when.— quite early on, in march or april, i can't remember when. in her witness statement. — can't remember when. in her witness statement, helen _ can't remember when. in her witness statement, helen mcnamara - can't remember when. in her witness statement, helen mcnamara made i can't remember when. in her witness i statement, helen mcnamara made the observation in this context, that you would never hear a politician saying that he or she was following the economics, and drawing that distinction. do you think that's one of the reasons why this phrase may have been used was because the politicians did not feel comfortable about their understanding of the science, so they said they were following that scientific advice in a way that they would never say they were following economic advice? i were following economic advice? i think that is true. there is great variability. — think that is true. there is great variability, uncertainty and unfamiliarity with science in government, and my experience is that many— government, and my experience is that many people who have not had a scientific— that many people who have not had a scientific training also view science _ scientific training also view science as giving immutable facts, the rememberat science as giving immutable facts, the remember at school about or thought— the remember at school about or thought of— the remember at school about or thought of the facts about science, the truth _ thought of the facts about science, the truth is — thought of the facts about science, the truth is that site is a process, it is a _ the truth is that site is a process, it is a way— the truth is that site is a process, it is a way of— the truth is that site is a process, it is a way of testing what you currently _ it is a way of testing what you currently know, experiment observation early, overturning hypotheses, advancing and trying to increase _ hypotheses, advancing and trying to increase your knowledge base. a description of what you currently have _ description of what you currently have that — description of what you currently have that can easily be overturned by have that can easily be overturned try new _ have that can easily be overturned by new evidence. that is not widely understood. be the wrong word, but it is not _ understood. be the wrong word, but it is not intuitive to many people. ithink— it is not intuitive to many people. i think therefore there was a bit of dependency, that this was a scientific— dependency, that this was a scientific problem, and that people would _ scientific problem, and that people would listen slavishly to this, and wanted _ would listen slavishly to this, and wanted to— would listen slavishly to this, and wanted to slightly hide behind this, at times _ at times. just going down the page, at times. — just going down the page, paragraph 122, a related but slightly separate point, it is said that siege ended up point, it is said that siege ended up filling a gap in government strategy and decision making which meant government decisions were held off until scientific advice was overwhelming, rather than using scientific input alongside other analysis to take decisions at the most appropriate time.- most appropriate time. again, sentiments — most appropriate time. again, sentiments that _ most appropriate time. again, sentiments that you _ most appropriate time. again, sentiments that you endorse? | most appropriate time. again, | sentiments that you endorse? i most appropriate time. again, - sentiments that you endorse? i agree that we _ sentiments that you endorse? i agree that we ended up filling gaps, and there _ that we ended up filling gaps, and there are — that we ended up filling gaps, and there are several examples where we did step _ there are several examples where we did step into places that we thought 'ust did step into places that we thought just needed some attention, and we tried to _ just needed some attention, and we tried to provide that. there are several— tried to provide that. there are several examples in my statement. i also think— several examples in my statement. i also think it — several examples in my statement. i also think it is true that other inputs— also think it is true that other inputs were not as visible, and not as obvious, — inputs were not as visible, and not as obvious, and there was not that overt— as obvious, and there was not that overt ability— as obvious, and there was not that overt ability to trade off between them, _ overt ability to trade off between them, and i think i made that point to economic— them, and i think i made that point to economic analysis, it was not obvious— to economic analysis, it was not obvious that was coming from, it was not visible _ obvious that was coming from, it was not visible. that led people to assume — not visible. that led people to assume the science was the decision—making force. i don't think i decision—making force. i don't think i disagree _ decision—making force. i don't think i disagree with anything written in the statement. the _ the statement. the point about economic input is one that we will certainly come to in due course. i would like to look to a related subject, which is about the ability, or the ease with which, government ministers, civil servants, decision—makers, understood the advice that you were providing them with. we have ready touched on the point of the proportion of applicants with stem degrees, and this question of non—science graduates struggling to understand science matters is a very old one. in your witness statement, perhaps we can go to page 207, paragraph 612, you describe your general experience of providing science advice to decision—makers. and four orfive lines science advice to decision—makers. and four or five lines down, you say, i am and four or five lines down, you say, iam not and four or five lines down, you say, i am not in doubt that professor whitty, and you give advice from siege, together with the uncertainties, was usually understood by decision—makers, however it was often necessary to explain scientific concepts on many occasions. you see it is entirely appropriate for decision—makers to challenge advice, and so on. in the next matthew say you asked a number of questions about whether the science advice you provided to the prime minister and core decision—makers was understood. you make a point about that as a better place to answer this question, and we can ask the prime minister and others, but you say again, that you took care to explain these concepts in a way that was comprehensible, appropriate. some points had to be explained repeatedly, and some areas proved more difficult to get across than others. and on to the next page that you make the point that some concepts were particularly challenging, for example absolute and relative risks in relation to comorbidities. i want to take you to a few entries in your notes, which touch on the subject, and try and get a feel for whether that is a general position, and whether those reflections apply, particularly to the prime minister, or whether in fact the position was more marked with him. can we go in this schedule, page 42, this is an entry in the 4th of may, by this stage you are making the notes daily? yes. you see, late afternoon meeting with the pm, this is complicated, models will not provide the answer, pm is clearly bamboozled. page 53. you have been watching our ongoing coverage of covid—19 inquiry. use on bbc to leave us now. you can continue watching on bbc news channel and bbc news website. he holds it in his head for a session, then it goes. page 93. watching pm get his head round stats is awful. he finds relative and absolute risk almost impossible to understand. page 124. pm struggled with concept of doubling times, just get it. two more, page 467. this is from later in the year, september. clear gardner talks pm through the graphs, he asked, which line is the dark red one, is he colour—blind? bloody hell, but it is all the seams that he was shown six hours ago. finally, 389. this is in 2021. pm dashboard, is that a reference to a dashboard, is that a reference to a dashboard meeting, taken to the graphs, struggle to get him to understand them. the question then, sir patrick, those paragraphs if you statement that we looked at, yes, you talk about sometimes needing to repeat things, even to explain things in detail. help us and tell us of this is an example of passages that you no longer want to support, but the message that we get from these repeated entries appears to describe something, at least as far as the prime minister is concerned, more serious than a repeated failure to understand graphs, scientific concepts and so on, forgetting things that had been explained to him only the a few hours earlier, repeatedly. was there a more serious problem with him than you described? i think i am right in saying that the prime _ i think i am right in saying that the prime minister at the time gave up the prime minister at the time gave up science — the prime minister at the time gave up science when he was 15. i think it would _ up science when he was 15. i think it would be — up science when he was 15. i think it would be the first to admit it was not — it would be the first to admit it was not his forte, and that he did struggte — was not his forte, and that he did struggle with some of the concepts, and he _ struggle with some of the concepts, and he did _ struggle with some of the concepts, and he did need to repeat them often _ and he did need to repeat them often i— and he did need to repeat them often. i would also see that a meeting _ often. i would also see that a meeting that sticks in my mind was with fellow— meeting that sticks in my mind was with fellow science advisers from across _ with fellow science advisers from across europe, when one of them, i will not _ across europe, when one of them, i will not say— across europe, when one of them, i will not say which country, declared that the _ will not say which country, declared that the leader of that country had enormous — that the leader of that country had enormous problems with exponential curves, _ enormous problems with exponential curves, and _ enormous problems with exponential curves, and the entire phone call trurst— curves, and the entire phone call burst into — curves, and the entire phone call burst into laughter, because it was true in _ burst into laughter, because it was true in every country. sol burst into laughter, because it was true in every country. so i do not think— true in every country. so i do not think that — true in every country. so i do not think that there was necessarily a unique _ think that there was necessarily a unique inability to grasp some of these _ unique inability to grasp some of these concepts with the prime minister— these concepts with the prime minister at the time, but it was hard _ minister at the time, but it was hard work— minister at the time, but it was hard work sometimes to try and make sure that _ hard work sometimes to try and make sure that he _ hard work sometimes to try and make sure that he had understood what a particular— sure that he had understood what a particular graph or piece of data was saying, and i learned from a number— was saying, and i learned from a number of— was saying, and i learned from a number of meetings, including around ctimate. _ number of meetings, including around climate, where there are certain things— climate, where there are certain things that the catches i, and would work for— things that the catches i, and would work for him, and other things that wouldn't _ work for him, and other things that wouldn't work for him. so there were ways of— wouldn't work for him. so there were ways of presenting the data that allowed — ways of presenting the data that allowed him to get better access than others. mr- than others. mr johnson, than others. mrjohnson, it hardly needs than others. — mrjohnson, it hardly needs saying, was the man who was making decisions that had incredibly brought impacts on the whole country, and it was critical, was it not, that he did understand the advice that he was being given? yes. being given? yes- being given? yes. . , being given? yes. . ., , ., ~' being given? yes. . , .,~ being given? yes. . ., , ., ~' ., yes. we have been talking so far about the need _ yes. we have been talking so far about the need to _ yes. we have been talking so far about the need to repeat - yes. we have been talking so far about the need to repeat advice l about the need to repeat advice sometimes, or, as you say, use particular techniques of tags to help him understand matters. was it ever the case that you had the impression that, despite repeating things, explaining things in a particular way, things, explaining things in a particularway, he things, explaining things in a particular way, he actually had completely misunderstood some of the advice that you had given him? it is possible, certainly when i left a — it is possible, certainly when i left a meeting i would usually be persuaded we had got him to understand we were trying to see. that is— understand we were trying to see. that is one — understand we were trying to see. that is one of the extract showed, six hours — that is one of the extract showed, six hours later he might not have remembered what was in the presentation. i can't be sure that he kept — presentation. ican't be sure that he kept it— presentation. ican't be sure that he kept it in— presentation. i can't be sure that he kept it in his mind all the time as he— he kept it in his mind all the time as he was— he kept it in his mind all the time as he was going into whatever the subsequent meetings were that designed policy. iwould subsequent meetings were that designed policy. i would also say, i don't _ designed policy. i would also say, i don't know. — designed policy. i would also say, i don't know, you have to ask him, i think— don't know, you have to ask him, i think he _ don't know, you have to ask him, i think he does— don't know, you have to ask him, i think he does have a technique of almost _ think he does have a technique of almost deliberately going to a sort of misunderstanding just to check that somebody isn't in a different position. — that somebody isn't in a different position, and that is something he would _ position, and that is something he would use — position, and that is something he would use from time to time. but i think— would use from time to time. but i think there — would use from time to time. but i think there was a problem in scientific— think there was a problem in scientific understanding, that is not unusual amongst leaders in western— not unusual amongst leaders in western democracies. and not unusual amongst leaders in western democracies.- not unusual amongst leaders in western democracies. and he wouldn't be the only person _ western democracies. and he wouldn't be the only person that _ western democracies. and he wouldn't be the only person that struggles - be the only person that struggles with grass, — be the only person that struggles with grass, i_ be the only person that struggles with grass, i struggle _ be the only person that struggles with grass, i struggle with - be the only person that struggles with grass, i struggle with grassl with grass, i struggle with grass myself— with grass, i struggle with grass myself occasionally. _ myself occasionally. a couple _ myself occasionally. a couple more - myself occasionally. i a couple more entries, myself occasionally. - a couple more entries, just to myself occasionally. _ a couple more entries, just to try and gauge the issue here. page 163. se tember and gauge the issue here. page 163. september 2020. _ and gauge the issue here. page 163. september 2020. reference - and gauge the issue here. page 163. september 2020. reference to - and gauge the issue here. page 163. september 2020. reference to the l september 2020. reference to the chief constables seeing the rules are too— chief constables seeing the rules are too complex. the subject of different — are too complex. the subject of different evidence we have heard. then, _ different evidence we have heard. then, i_ different evidence we have heard. then, i take different evidence we have heard. then, itake it different evidence we have heard. then, i take it this is a quote from the pm. _ then, i take it this is a quote from the pm. is— then, i take it this is a quote from the pm, is this a mirage, things fottow— the pm, is this a mirage, things follow a — the pm, is this a mirage, things follow a natural pattern whatever you do? — follow a natural pattern whatever you do? incredulity in the room. as it always _ you do? incredulity in the room. as it always like — you do? incredulity in the room. as it always like this. is that an example _ it always like this. is that an example of him perhaps being just provocative, or did that demonstrate 'ust provocative, or did that demonstrate just a _ provocative, or did that demonstrate just a fundamental misunderstanding? it just a fundamental misunderstanding? it was _ just a fundamental misunderstanding? it was a _ just a fundamental misunderstanding? it was a point he raised on several occasions, he would look at the peaks, waves of infection, and ask, are the interventions we are making doing that, isjust are the interventions we are making doing that, is just what would have happened anyway? it would come back to that point, we talked through the evidence, the interventions had made the difference. and it is true that at some point the peak would come down because at some point public behaviour changes, the number of susceptible people changes, the amount of unity in the population changes, they do go up and down, but the point was that these were being manipulated down by interventions. just before we leave this entry, the last sentence, we are in september, cmo stilt— last sentence, we are in september, cmo still keeps offering a slightly slower _ cmo still keeps offering a slightly slower path. we talked already about the caution _ slower path. we talked already about the caution that chris whitty had in march, _ the caution that chris whitty had in march, it— the caution that chris whitty had in march, it looks like you are recording _ march, it looks like you are recording a similar issue later in the year — the year. was it something that the year. — was it something that continued? the point in brackets is important, chris and i discussed the sort of thing often, i still think that he, as chief medical officer, with accountability, was right to raise the problems associated with the measures being taken, and that appropriate caution i think was useful, and it was very helpful for the two of us to be able to discuss that, understand why we were in positions of either greater or slower pace on some of those things. i think it is appropriate. one more of these references, btease — one more of these references, please. page 190. very much the same time, _ please. page 190. very much the same time, september2020, you record that the _ time, september2020, you record that the prime minister come back had from _ that the prime minister come back had from a — that the prime minister come back had from a battle of britain memorial service, starts challenging numbers, _ memorial service, starts challenging numbers, questioning whether they transtate _ numbers, questioning whether they translate into deaths, says it is not exponential, etc, looks broken, head _ not exponential, etc, looks broken, head in— not exponential, etc, looks broken, head in hands a lot, is it because of the _ head in hands a lot, is it because of the great _ head in hands a lot, is it because of the great libertarian nation that we have _ of the great libertarian nation that we have that it has spread so much, maybe _ we have that it has spread so much, maybe we _ we have that it has spread so much, maybe we are licked as a specious. -- ticked _ maybe we are licked as a specious. -- ticked as — maybe we are licked as a specious. -- ticked as a — maybe we are licked as a specious. —— licked as a species. he doesn't seem _ —— licked as a species. he doesn't seem to _ —— licked as a species. he doesn't seem to have _ —— licked as a species. he doesn't seem to have been the easiest of decision—makers for you to provide advice _ decision—makers for you to provide advice to — advice to. this is an example of advice to. — this is an example of wear, i suspect in this meeting, not trying to get across to many scientific concepts, could have waited for the better opportunity to do so and spoken to some others. has better opportunity to do so and spoken to some others.- spoken to some others. as you mentioned _ spoken to some others. as you mentioned at _ spoken to some others. as you mentioned at the _ spoken to some others. as you mentioned at the outset, - spoken to some others. as you mentioned at the outset, you | spoken to some others. as you i mentioned at the outset, you had worked _ mentioned at the outset, you had worked with other decision—makers, this is— worked with other decision—makers, this is me. _ worked with other decision—makers, this is me, this reception of scientific— this is me, this reception of scientific advice, was it something you were — scientific advice, was it something you were used to, or out of your experience? _ experience? borisjohnson and experience? boris johnson and dominic cummings borisjohnson and dominic cummings were extremely keen to get scientific advice. they had a disproportionate interest in getting science advice, but as you can see it wasn't always easy to provide it in a way that was understood and actionable by the prime minister. i doubt that the sorts of things described here are terribly surprising to most people. i want to add in one extra factor, we know— i want to add in one extra factor, we know the prime minister was unweit— we know the prime minister was unwett for— we know the prime minister was unwell for some period, march, april in 2020 _ unwell for some period, march, april in 2020 the — unwell for some period, march, april in 2020. the extracts i have shown you do _ in 2020. the extracts i have shown you do have — in 2020. the extracts i have shown you do have some in that period, but we have _ you do have some in that period, but we have seen— you do have some in that period, but we have seen that later, it is at the factory— we have seen that later, it is at the factory need to bear in mind with att— the factory need to bear in mind with all this? there was a period, i described it when he was unwell, he was unable to concentrate. when he came back, he ease himself back into things over a few weeks, thereafter there was no obvious change between him and what he was like beforehand. a separate subject, in the first instance — a separate subject, in the first instance about spy b, the behavioural science subgroup of siege _ behavioural science subgroup of siege -- — behavioural science subgroup of siege. —— sage. perhaps we start by looking _ siege. —— sage. perhaps we start by looking at— siege. —— sage. perhaps we start by looking at the sage minutes to set ”p looking at the sage minutes to set up that— looking at the sage minutes to set up that group. 13th february. go to the next _ up that group. 13th february. go to the next page. you were there. did you attend — the next page. you were there. did you attend every sage meeting during this period? i think i missed one. not this— this period? i think i missed one. not this one. this period? i think i missed one. not this one-— this period? i think i missed one. not this one. . ., , . ., not this one. page four, the section ofthe not this one. page four, the section of the minutes— not this one. page four, the section of the minutes headed _ not this one. page four, the section of the minutes headed behavioural. of the minutes headed behavioural science, _ of the minutes headed behavioural science, this was a summary of the discussions — science, this was a summary of the discussions which led to the decision— discussions which led to the decision that a behavioural science subgroup— decision that a behavioural science subgroup would be a good idea? and we have _ subgroup would be a good idea? and we have heard in the way it was set up. we have heard in the way it was set up i_ we have heard in the way it was set up i wanted — we have heard in the way it was set up. i wanted to draw your attention to one _ up. i wanted to draw your attention to one feature of these paragraphs without _ to one feature of these paragraphs without reading them all out, which is that— without reading them all out, which is that there is a repeated reference to messaging, do you see that? _ reference to messaging, do you see that? most— reference to messaging, do you see that? most of these paragraphs refer to importance of messaging, and the link with— to importance of messaging, and the link with behavioural science. is it the fear— link with behavioural science. is it the fear understanding of these paragraphs, that part of the purpose of setting _ paragraphs, that part of the purpose of setting up spy b was to assist with the — of setting up spy b was to assist with the exercise of providing the public— with the exercise of providing the public with appropriate messaging during _ public with appropriate messaging during the pandemic? part public with appropriate messaging during the pandemic?— during the pandemic? part of the reason behind _ during the pandemic? part of the reason behind behavioural- during the pandemic? part of the l reason behind behavioural science, and i think those at this meeting were exceptional, was to make sure that the principles underlying messaging were understood. it wasn't to decide messaging, it was to make sure the principles, like collective ownership of things was important. don't drive fear as the messaging vehicle. spy b produced some really important papers on that. it is because of that that around this time i introduced james rubin and brooke to dominic cummings and alex aitken, who was head of government communications, to make sure there was a vehicle for them to feed in their principles of messaging. this is what i wanted to explore, on the one _ this is what i wanted to explore, on the one hand great emphasis placed on messaging, on the other hand, we asked _ on messaging, on the other hand, we asked professor rubin about the fact that the _ asked professor rubin about the fact that the forerunner to spy b which have _ that the forerunner to spy b which have been— that the forerunner to spy b which have been set up during the swine flu pandemic was called spy b and c, c stantey— flu pandemic was called spy b and c, c stanley for communications, i asked _ c stanley for communications, i asked him — c stanley for communications, i asked him about the lack of a sea this time — asked him about the lack of a sea this time round, accidental, he said, _ this time round, accidental, he said. no, — this time round, accidental, he said. no, a _ this time round, accidental, he said, no, a deliberate decision taken, — said, no, a deliberate decision taken, we _ said, no, a deliberate decision taken, we were not to be involved communications. it is fair to say that— communications. it is fair to say that there — communications. it is fair to say that there is an inconsistency they are, to _ that there is an inconsistency they are, to have — that there is an inconsistency they are, to have on the one hand the committee — are, to have on the one hand the committee which was at least one of its main _ committee which was at least one of its main purpose is to be involved with developing messaging, and on the other— with developing messaging, and on the other hand, to be told, you're not having — the other hand, to be told, you're not having anything to do with communications, is that a fair point? — communications, is that a fair point? i— communications, is that a fair oint? ., communications, is that a fair oint? . ., communications, is that a fair oint? ., ., , communications, is that a fair oint? . ., , ., , point? i am not sure it does. the oint point? i am not sure it does. the point that — point? i am not sure it does. the point that the — point? i am not sure it does. the point that the behavioural - point? i am not sure it does. the point that the behavioural trying | point? i am not sure it does. the i point that the behavioural trying to give is their principles behind messaging, not the actual construct of the communications, i think that distinction is quite important. this is behavioural science and advice into communications and messaging, beyond communications messaging more generally. the ownership of the actual communications had to be within public health england, within the public health system, within government communications, and we spidey could help was making sure that the principles were clear, and indeed on occasions i think they were brought in to help with specific messaging with individuals. maybe i am wrong, but i don't think it would be appropriate to have an academic group designing government communications. i don't want to overstate this, one can see _ idon't want to overstate this, one can see that— i don't want to overstate this, one can see that in principle providing epidemic— can see that in principle providing epidemic direction is one thing, and designing _ epidemic direction is one thing, and designing the communications is a different— designing the communications is a different thing, but the evidence we heard _ different thing, but the evidence we heard from professor rubin and professor— heard from professor rubin and professor yardley, was that how it worked _ professor yardley, was that how it worked out, yes, they did the behavioural science work, they couldn't — behavioural science work, they couldn't see that being taken into account— couldn't see that being taken into account at— couldn't see that being taken into account at all in the communications strategies, _ account at all in the communications strategies, and in fact, they disagreed sometimes quite strongly with several of the main strategies that were — with several of the main strategies that were ruled out. and i think when _ that were ruled out. and i think when we — that were ruled out. and i think when we spoke to lee kane he said, i paid more _ when we spoke to lee kane he said, i paid more attention to my focus groups— paid more attention to my focus groups and what the behavioural scientists — groups and what the behavioural scientists were telling me. perhaps the principal division you display -- you _ the principal division you display —— you described a sustainable, but in practice, — —— you described a sustainable, but in practice, it — —— you described a sustainable, but in practice, it did not work? i think spi-b i think spi—b get very good advice on this. we introduce them to alex deakin, dominic cummings and others. the fact that the government then chose to do things different to that, provided they have understood that, provided they have understood that the input has come, provided they have heard it properly, that is a ministerial decision to do things differently. i happen to think they could have listened more to spi—b on this senate would have been helpful, but it seems to me that is exactly where ministerial accountability comes in. it is the same for this area of science has four other areas of science. to put it even more boldly, following the behavioural science would have been as bad as following the science. bare science would have been as bad as following the science.— following the science. are there lessons to _ following the science. are there lessons to be _ following the science. are there lessons to be learned _ following the science. are there lessons to be learned for - following the science. are there lessons to be learned for next l following the science. are there - lessons to be learned for next time? accepting _ lessons to be learned for next time? accepting your point that ultimately it

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