the challenges with policing on the ground _ the challenges with policing on the ground is— the challenges with policing on the ground is achieving the level of certainty— ground is achieving the level of certainty around exactly... and i think_ certainty around exactly... and i think if— certainty around exactly... and i think if you _ certainty around exactly... and i think if you take that final paragraph there, that is highlighted in red. _ paragraph there, that is highlighted in red, there is so much in their back— in red, there is so much in their back gate — in red, there is so much in their back gate is— in red, there is so much in their back gate is open to interpretation, and that— back gate is open to interpretation, and that makes that very difficult power _ and that makes that very difficult power for— and that makes that very difficult power for anyone to confidently use on the _ power for anyone to confidently use on the street that, as it happens and as— on the street that, as it happens and as it — on the street that, as it happens and as it turned out, in fact... perhaps — and as it turned out, in fact... perhaps for— and as it turned out, in fact... perhaps for that reason it wasn't a power that really featured during the course of the pandemic. we can probably afford to leave that there. that is to be contrasted is it not with the powers in the second column, the power, the duty, to enforce the various different regulations made relating to the pandemic, and there are just three described here and we bury mind that this document dates from early in 2020. it is right, and we will come to discuss this over the course of the following 12—18 months, that there was a proliferation of similar regulations made, which the police were required to consider.- were required to consider. correct. when that happens _ were required to consider. correct. when that happens where - were required to consider. correct. when that happens where further. when that happens where further versions of this document produce? the process that we went through, by my reckoning, there was something over 140 _ my reckoning, there was something over 140 changes during the period, over140 changes during the period, either— over 140 changes during the period, either a _ over 140 changes during the period, eithera minor over 140 changes during the period, either a minor change or over 140 changes during the period, eithera minor change ora either a minor change or a significant eithera minor change ora significant change that came out. the process that was undertaken and we might— the process that was undertaken and we might talk about this in more detail, _ we might talk about this in more detail, we — we might talk about this in more detail, we would proceed with that and then— detail, we would proceed with that and then provide operational guidance to horses to allow them to have the _ guidance to horses to allow them to have the best understanding they could _ have the best understanding they could of— have the best understanding they could of how —— to forces. for the powers— could of how —— to forces. for the powers that — could of how —— to forces. for the powers that were active at that particular — powers that were active at that particular point in time to stop and that was— particular point in time to stop and that was as — particular point in time to stop and that was as you could imagine our rolling _ that was as you could imagine our rolling process, as things have changed — rolling process, as things have changed and were superseded. so it was pretty— changed and were superseded. so it was pretty much a seven day a week process— was pretty much a seven day a week process to _ was pretty much a seven day a week process to keep up to speed and to ensure. _ process to keep up to speed and to ensure. of— process to keep up to speed and to ensure, of course, we have to bear in nrind— ensure, of course, we have to bear in mind that — ensure, of course, we have to bear in mind that there would often be differences in different countries, and then— differences in different countries, and then add varies later stages when _ and then add varies later stages when we — and then add varies later stages when we ended up in local lockdowns and in _ when we ended up in local lockdowns and in tiers, — when we ended up in local lockdowns and in tiers, within a different police — and in tiers, within a different police force area you would have different — police force area you would have different regulations being in play at the _ different regulations being in play at the same time which created all sorts— at the same time which created all sorts of— at the same time which created all sorts of challenges as you might imagine — sorts of challenges as you might imagine for policing on the ground. i imagine for policing on the ground. i was _ imagine for policing on the ground. i was going — imagine for policing on the ground. i was going to ask you about that. when one did get to the stage of different regulations being made let's say in scotland or, as you say later on particularly with the tiering structure, different regulations within different parts of the country, was it still your role to try and draft, with the college, which you could send to the local police forces? thea;r college, which you could send to the local police forces?— local police forces? they would have been clearly — local police forces? they would have been clearly more _ local police forces? they would have been clearly more specific _ local police forces? they would have been clearly more specific and - been clearly more specific and related — been clearly more specific and related to individual areas and then within— related to individual areas and then within individual police forces, they— within individual police forces, they would have to be managing those processes _ they would have to be managing those processes themselves, as well, because — processes themselves, as well, because it — processes themselves, as well, because it did get incredibly complex at times. just because it did get incredibly complex at times. because it did get incredibly comlex at times. , , ., ., ., , complex at times. just moving on as far as this document _ complex at times. just moving on as far as this document is _ complex at times. just moving on as far as this document is concerned, l far as this document is concerned, we have looked at column one column two, they were both legal duties, legal matters for the police to enforce. on the third column, you refer to something different which is government guidance. again this is government guidance. again this is a point we will come back to. but, the message is given here, it seems that police officers need to be aware that guidance is not the law, and they should bear that in mind in enforcing particular regulations.— mind in enforcing particular reuulations. . ., . , , regulations. that was an incredibly im ortant regulations. that was an incredibly important point. _ regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and _ regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and i'm _ regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and i'm sure - regulations. that was an incredibly important point. and i'm sure that| important point. and i'm sure that we will— important point. and i'm sure that we will talk— important point. and i'm sure that we will talk more about that. but we police _ we will talk more about that. but we police to _ we will talk more about that. but we police to the law, and i think the challenge, — police to the law, and i think the challenge, at times, when things that were — challenge, at times, when things that were guidance were being spoken about in— that were guidance were being spoken about in a _ that were guidance were being spoken about in a way that suggested they were a _ about in a way that suggested they were a regulation was a real challenge for the service. a couple more shut points _ challenge for the service. a couple more shut points in _ challenge for the service. a couple more shut points in this _ challenge for the service. a couple | more shut points in this document. first of all we can see, both at the bottom of column one, and at the bottom of column one, and at the bottom of column two, and note that the powers that are being discussed in each of those columns also apply to children. that was honestly the case. i am going to come back and ask further questions about that in due course, but this clearly was something that you thought it was important to fly officers. absolutely. —— to flag to officers. regulations had, we needed to be as clear as _ regulations had, we needed to be as clear as possible. this was always an exercise — clear as possible. this was always an exercise in reducing the question marks— an exercise in reducing the question marks in— an exercise in reducing the question marks in the — an exercise in reducing the question marks in the minds of the officer on the ground, — marks in the minds of the officer on the ground, because importantly, as ithink— the ground, because importantly, as i think we _ the ground, because importantly, as i think we will come on to talk about, — i think we will come on to talk about, in— i think we will come on to talk about, in ourfour i think we will come on to talk about, in our four e's approach, the second _ about, in our four e's approach, the second of— about, in our four e's approach, the second of those was, when talking to a member— second of those was, when talking to a member of the public could only be done if— a member of the public could only be done if an— a member of the public could only be done if an officer themselves understood the regulations at that time which was very challenging, as things— time which was very challenging, as things progress. the time which was very challenging, as things progress— things progress. the second point noes things progress. the second point aoes back things progress. the second point goes back to _ things progress. the second point goes back to a — things progress. the second point goes back to a point _ things progress. the second point goes back to a point you - things progress. the second point goes back to a point you made - things progress. the second point goes back to a point you made in| things progress. the second point i goes back to a point you made in the context of the power, the duty under the act, directing people to be tested. it applies does it not through the second column as well, in the sense that, what police officers were being asked to do here involved them exercising a very great degree of discretion. one can contrasted perhaps with the straightforward prevention or detection of crime issue. if you see someone shoplifting, you take action. it is a binary thing. here, their task was much more complicated. it their task was much more complicated.— their task was much more complicated. their task was much more comlicated. , ., ., ., complicated. it is fair to say that in everyday _ complicated. it is fair to say that in everyday policing _ complicated. it is fair to say that in everyday policing before - in everyday policing before coronavirus and post coronavirus, police _ coronavirus and post coronavirus, police officers on the ground have discretion — police officers on the ground have discretion. and that is the right way that— discretion. and that is the right way that we operate, they police to the law _ way that we operate, they police to the law but they have discretion on the law but they have discretion on the ground. what this did was bring into play. _ the ground. what this did was bring into play. a — the ground. what this did was bring into play, a whole range of situations that were utterly different from your shoplifter example where the crime is the crime that most— example where the crime is the crime that most people would understand that. that most people would understand that it _ that most people would understand that. it took it into a very different— that. it took it into a very different space. and if i am right, one thing — different space. and if i am right, one thing that i think is important about— one thing that i think is important about the — one thing that i think is important about the second box is when it mentions — about the second box is when it mentions trading standards and local authorities. i think throughout the pandemic— authorities. i think throughout the pandemic i— authorities. i think throughout the pandemic i had a sense of frustration at times, whenever politically people were talking about — politically people were talking about enforcement, that automatically recalled the police and the — automatically recalled the police and the reality was, this was about achieving _ and the reality was, this was about achieving compliance with regulations which were there to protect— regulations which were there to protect people. this pulls out trading — protect people. this pulls out trading standards in local authorities but in other cases there were _ authorities but in other cases there were loads — authorities but in other cases there were loads of businesses, the work that was— were loads of businesses, the work that was done within supermarkets by the staff— that was done within supermarkets by the staff to _ that was done within supermarkets by the staff to enforce, if you like, compliance with the regulations, and ithink— compliance with the regulations, and i think it _ compliance with the regulations, and i think it is _ compliance with the regulations, and i think it is important... there was frustration — i think it is important... there was frustration at — i think it is important... there was frustration at times from my perspective that enforcement with automatically equal to police when it was— automatically equal to police when it was really about a much broader effort _ it was really about a much broader effort to— it was really about a much broader effort to achieve compliance. yes, well, that complexity, _ effort to achieve compliance. yes, well, that complexity, the - effort to achieve compliance. is: well, that complexity, the novelty of what the police were being asked to do was something you sought to address by providing them with a guidance we see in the bottom right—hand corner of the box, to engage, explain, encourage, enforce the guidance. that is something we can see addressed more fully into another document, if you want to go to that, please, 99936. you see there that the four e's that became commonly described, i don't want to read the document out or go through it in fine detail but you can provide us with a summary of the rationale behind this guidance that was provided? this rationale behind this guidance that was provided? 351 rationale behind this guidance that was provided?— was provided? as i said earlier, i was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear — was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in _ was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in my _ was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in my mind, - was provided? as i said earlier, i was very clear in my mind, as . was provided? as i said earlier, i i was very clear in my mind, as were the other— was very clear in my mind, as were the other chiefs i was working with, that we _ the other chiefs i was working with, that we had — the other chiefs i was working with, that we had to police the pandemic in a way— that we had to police the pandemic in a way that was consistent with our policing style, the policing style _ our policing style, the policing style is— our policing style, the policing style is a — our policing style, the policing style is a consensual policing style. — style is a consensual policing style, and we knew that we were going _ style, and we knew that we were going to — style, and we knew that we were going to be going into territory that was— going to be going into territory that was highly unusual, and the kind of— that was highly unusual, and the kind of restrictions that would be placed _ kind of restrictions that would be placed on— kind of restrictions that would be placed on people's liberty and movement were incredibly severe. and the reason _ movement were incredibly severe. and the reason for the four e's was that the reason for the four e's was that the approach was very much about, this is— the approach was very much about, this is about, how do you most effectively achieved compliance with the regulation and therefore protect people? _ the regulation and therefore protect people? engaging is entirely what we do policing, it is about talking to people — do policing, it is about talking to people it — do policing, it is about talking to people. it was about explanation. we would _ people. it was about explanation. we would all. _ people. it was about explanation. we would all. i_ people. it was about explanation. we would all, i am sure, except that at various— would all, i am sure, except that at various stages throughout the process— various stages throughout the process there was a lack of clarity about _ process there was a lack of clarity about precisely what individual regulations meant. in some sense there _ regulations meant. in some sense there would always be a degree of that but— there would always be a degree of that but often it was quite difficult. we saw the police officers _ difficult. we saw the police officers as an opportunity to provide _ officers as an opportunity to provide that explanation to people about— provide that explanation to people about the rules, if they were unclear _ about the rules, if they were unclear. then, really importantly, encouraging them to comply. and this is a really— encouraging them to comply. and this is a really important point from the policing _ is a really important point from the policing perspective. that was the object _ policing perspective. that was the object of — policing perspective. that was the object of the exercise. it was not to take _ object of the exercise. it was not to take some action against a person. — to take some action against a person. it _ to take some action against a person, it was to get the person to comply— person, it was to get the person to comply with the regulation so the encourage base was there and then only lastly. — encourage base was there and then only lastly, as you'll see in all of the literature as a last resort if the literature as a last resort if the person refuses to comply, then we would _ the person refuses to comply, then we would move to an enforcement stage _ we would move to an enforcement stage and — we would move to an enforcement stage. and this was the piece of guidance — stage. and this was the piece of guidance that we put out and remain throughout, and was really important because _ throughout, and was really important because we _ throughout, and was really important because we always took it back to that being — because we always took it back to that being the point. and it is another, _ that being the point. and it is another, i_ that being the point. and it is another, i think, that being the point. and it is another, ithink, important point for the _ another, ithink, important point for the inquiry to understand is, when _ for the inquiry to understand is, when people talk about the level of enforcement, they tend to go directly— enforcement, they tend to go directly to you how many fixed penalty — directly to you how many fixed penalty tickets were issued. and there _ penalty tickets were issued. and there is— penalty tickets were issued. and there is a — penalty tickets were issued. and there is a categoric number for that _ there is a categoric number for that. what we cannot measure is the hundreds— that. what we cannot measure is the hundreds of— that. what we cannot measure is the hundreds of thousands if not millions— hundreds of thousands if not millions of engagements that happened where the process ended at one of— happened where the process ended at one of the _ happened where the process ended at one of the first three stages. we did sometimes seek to find if we were _ did sometimes seek to find if we were not— did sometimes seek to find if we were not going to impose a bureaucratic burden to try to find that out— bureaucratic burden to try to find that out but i think that is really important — that out but i think that is really important point for the inquiry to understand, particularly thinking, for any— understand, particularly thinking, for any future pandemic response in the country. — for any future pandemic response in the country, we need more sophisticated sense of thinking of what we — sophisticated sense of thinking of what we mean when we say the word, enforcement. what we mean when we say the word, enforcement-— enforcement. yes, one of the ways ou ut it enforcement. yes, one of the ways you put it in _ enforcement. yes, one of the ways you put it in your— enforcement. yes, one of the ways you put it in your witness _ enforcement. yes, one of the ways | you put it in your witness statement was to say that success was regarded as the ability to secure maximum compliance without the need to resort to precisely that, yes. again, and in terms of thinking to the future, you say that these four e's, this guidance stayed the course as it were, it wasn't changed during the pandemic. can we take it, therefore, that you regard this as being a success and something that could be copied in future? bier? could be copied in future? very stronal . could be copied in future? very strongly- and _ could be copied in future? very strongly. and in _ could be copied in future? very strongly. and in a _ could be copied in future? very strongly. and in a sense - could be copied in future? very strongly. and in a sense it feeds off a _ strongly. and in a sense it feeds off a five — strongly. and in a sense it feeds off a five stage process, i will not io off a five stage process, i will not go into— off a five stage process, i will not go into the — off a five stage process, i will not go into the detail, that policing uses _ go into the detail, that policing uses on — go into the detail, that policing uses on a — go into the detail, that policing uses on a day to day basis. some people _ uses on a day to day basis. some people have the assumption you start from zero _ people have the assumption you start from zero to arresting back there as process— from zero to arresting back there as process that goes through, and i would _ process that goes through, and i would very— process that goes through, and i would very strongly suggest that this approach, for anybody that is involved. — this approach, for anybody that is involved, and it will notjust be the police. _ involved, and it will notjust be the police, in trying to achieve compliance with a series of safety regulations, this is the approach that should be adopted. you have mentioned this _ that should be adopted. you have mentioned this point, _ that should be adopted. you have mentioned this point, that - that should be adopted. you have mentioned this point, that you i that should be adopted. you havel mentioned this point, that you had as it were encouraged us to bear in mind the enormous number of engagements that police officers would have had with members of the public during the pandemic, and that sort of unknowable number of engagements that ended with one of the earlier four e's without having toissue the earlier four e's without having to issue a fixed penalty notice, it must be ironic, mustn't it, and it goes to the point about the breadth of discretion, that different officers will have had a slightly different are perhaps very different approach to when it was appropriate toissue approach to when it was appropriate to issue a fixed penalty notice and, beyond that, there may have been different practices, different police forces, different police stations. . . police forces, different police stations. . , ., , , stations. that is absolutely right. there will always _ stations. that is absolutely right. there will always be _ stations. that is absolutely right. there will always be that - stations. that is absolutely right. there will always be that officer i there will always be that officer discretion. i don't think it is particularly controversial to say that _ particularly controversial to say that i'm — particularly controversial to say that. i'm sure at times some officers — that. i'm sure at times some officers didn't get that right. but everyone — officers didn't get that right. but everyone was very clear, and of course. — everyone was very clear, and of course, again, another really important _ course, again, another really important point about policing, policing — important point about policing, policing is always undertaking in its particular context. and that context — its particular context. and that context will be different in different parts of the country or even _ different parts of the country or even different parts within individual police force areas. it will be — individual police force areas. it will be different, as the pit time —— pandemic progressed, and we saw the different— —— pandemic progressed, and we saw the different levels of regulation, the different levels of regulation, the local— the different levels of regulation, the local regulations, it will be different, again, as we saw those areas. _ different, again, as we saw those areas, because some area stayed within— areas, because some area stayed within a _ areas, because some area stayed within a lockdown arrangement for much _ within a lockdown arrangement for much longer than others. so, one within a lockdown arrangement for much longerthan others. so, one has to accept— much longerthan others. so, one has to accept that there will be a degree — to accept that there will be a degree of lockdown fatigue in those areas _ degree of lockdown fatigue in those areas which is inevitable, it is going — areas which is inevitable, it is going to — areas which is inevitable, it is going to alter the interactions between that member of the public and that— between that member of the public and that police officer. so we lived with that _ and that police officer. so we lived with that all the time, but particularly focused in unusual regulations like this. one particularly focused in unusual regulations like this.— particularly focused in unusual regulations like this. one of the reasons i ask _ regulations like this. one of the reasons i ask you _ regulations like this. one of the reasons i ask you about - regulations like this. one of the reasons i ask you about that. reasons i ask you about that divergence, if you like, is that we will come to look at the statistics which, in the way of statistics, are very black and white. and i want to ask you whether, when we do look at those, we really do need to bear in mind that there may have been quite considerable difference in practice in the country, or not. and you explained that your aim was to achieve a level of consistency across the country.— achieve a level of consistency across the country. yes. can you hel us across the country. yes. can you help us with — across the country. yes. can you help us with weather, _ across the country. yes. can you help us with weather, with different stages of the pandemic, that you felt that you really were not achieving that and different forces within the country seem to be having a very different approach to this escalation through these e's or not. i am not sure i would characterise it as _ i am not sure i would characterise it as not _ i am not sure i would characterise it as not achieving. there were undoubtedly at different times during — undoubtedly at different times during the pandemic, different forces — during the pandemic, different forces were faced with a different challenge. so perhaps if i can give one illustration. in the early part of the _ one illustration. in the early part of the pandemic, in the days that we will come _ of the pandemic, in the days that we will come onto later, refer to very hi-h will come onto later, refer to very high levels — will come onto later, refer to very high levels of enforcement in areas that might — high levels of enforcement in areas that might be described as kinda beauty— that might be described as kinda beauty spot areas so, in cumbria, lake _ beauty spot areas so, in cumbria, lake district, north yorkshire, the south—west, and that was a phenomenon that was at the point where _ phenomenon that was at the point where people could go out to do some exercise _ where people could go out to do some exercise. people were travelling in some _ exercise. people were travelling in some cases hundreds of miles, to go to another— some cases hundreds of miles, to go to another part of the country to a beautiful— to another part of the country to a beautiful part of the country to undertake that. so that is what it is. undertake that. so that is what it is and _ undertake that. so that is what it is and we — undertake that. so that is what it is. and we can, i guess, talk about the lack— is. and we can, i guess, talk about the lack of— is. and we can, i guess, talk about the lack of specificity in some of the lack of specificity in some of the regulations, but if you put yourself— the regulations, but if you put yourself in the place of some of the chief— yourself in the place of some of the chief constables in cumbria, using cumbria _ chief constables in cumbria, using cumbria as — chief constables in cumbria, using cumbria as an example, the chief constable — cumbria as an example, the chief constable there has a community that is attempting to comply and to protect— is attempting to comply and to protect themselves, and are quite rightly— protect themselves, and are quite rightly getting quite angry about the fact— rightly getting quite angry about the fact that what they are seeing is lots _ the fact that what they are seeing is lots of— the fact that what they are seeing is lots of people from other parts of the _ is lots of people from other parts of the country coming into those communities, when they are abiding by all— communities, when they are abiding by all the _ communities, when they are abiding by all the rules. that presents a real pressure into that chief constable, because i has —— as i have _ constable, because i has —— as i have said — constable, because i has —— as i have said before, however long the pandemic— have said before, however long the pandemic was going to go on, we were still going _ pandemic was going to go on, we were still going to _ pandemic was going to go on, we were still going to carry on policing after— still going to carry on policing after that pandemic, and that really came. _ after that pandemic, and that really came. it _ after that pandemic, and that really came, it kind of came to some of the behavioural— came, it kind of came to some of the behavioural science that we got involved — behavioural science that we got involved in early on, and particularly this concept of othering, and in terms of people's preparedness to comply, it eroded when _ preparedness to comply, it eroded when i _ preparedness to comply, it eroded when i think that the other person over there — when i think that the other person over there is having an easier time than _ over there is having an easier time than me _ over there is having an easier time than me. and this particular became relevant _ than me. and this particular became relevant when he started to get local— relevant when he started to get local lockdowns and in some places where _ local lockdowns and in some places where you — local lockdowns and in some places where you would have literally on opposite — where you would have literally on opposite sides of the road, different regulations for people, but i think that became quite a feature — but i think that became quite a feature if— but i think that became quite a feature. if you talk about those beauty — feature. if you talk about those beauty spot areas where people were saying. _ beauty spot areas where people were saying. we _ beauty spot areas where people were saying, we are doing this, we are not moving. _ saying, we are doing this, we are not moving, we are staying local, and these — not moving, we are staying local, and these people are coming in and potentially putting us at risk, and that puts — potentially putting us at risk, and that puts pressure on policing and i think— that puts pressure on policing and i think there — that puts pressure on policing and i think there is were being responded to. i think there is were being responded to ithink— think there is were being responded to i think it — think there is were being responded to. i think it was less that we were getting _ to. i think it was less that we were getting the — to. i think it was less that we were getting the message but whatever the message. _ getting the message but whatever the message, has to be dealt within the individual— message, has to be dealt within the individual and specific context at that moment in time, in particular place _ that moment in time, in particular lace. . , ., ., that moment in time, in particular lace. . ., ., , place. can you slow down a bit? don't worry- _ place. can you slow down a bit? don't worry- i— place. can you slow down a bit? don't worry. i want _ place. can you slow down a bit? don't worry. i want to _ place. can you slow down a bit? don't worry. i want to move - place. can you slow down a bit? don't worry. i want to move on | place. can you slow down a bit? i don't worry. i want to move on and focus on the — don't worry. i want to move on and focus on the question _ don't worry. i want to move on and focus on the question of— don't worry. i want to move on and focus on the question of the - focus on the question of the challenges in providing effective guidance, in relation to the regulations, given the way in which they develop. regulations, given the way in which they develop-— they develop. sorry to interrupt, ou said they develop. sorry to interrupt, you said earlier, _ they develop. sorry to interrupt, you said earlier, mr _ they develop. sorry to interrupt, you said earlier, mr hewitt i they develop. sorry to interrupt, you said earlier, mr hewitt that| they develop. sorry to interrupt, i you said earlier, mr hewitt that the regulations— you said earlier, mr hewitt that the regulations were _ you said earlier, mr hewitt that the regulations were drafted _ you said earlier, mr hewitt that the regulations were drafted by - you said earlier, mr hewitt that the regulations were drafted by the i regulations were drafted by the dapartment— regulations were drafted by the department of— regulations were drafted by the department of health - regulations were drafted by the department of health and i regulations were drafted by the | department of health and social care _ department of health and social care do — department of health and social care do you _ department of health and social care. do you know _ department of health and social care. do you know whether- department of health and social care. do you know whether anyl department of health and social i care. do you know whether any police officers _ care. do you know whether any police officers were — care. do you know whether any police officers were consulted, _ care. do you know whether any police officers were consulted, given - care. do you know whether any police officers were consulted, given the i officers were consulted, given the problems— officers were consulted, given the problems you _ officers were consulted, given the problems you have _ officers were consulted, given the problems you have said _ officers were consulted, given the problems you have said with i officers were consulted, given the | problems you have said with trying to enforce — problems you have said with trying to enforce regulations _ problems you have said with trying to enforce regulations that - problems you have said with trying to enforce regulations that some l problems you have said with tryingl to enforce regulations that some of them _ to enforce regulations that some of them i_ to enforce regulations that some of them i had — to enforce regulations that some of them i had never— to enforce regulations that some of them i had never even— to enforce regulations that some of them i had never even heard - to enforce regulations that some of them i had never even heard of, i to enforce regulations that some ofi them i had never even heard of, the ability— them i had never even heard of, the ability to— them i had never even heard of, the ability to enforce _ them i had never even heard of, the ability to enforce a _ them i had never even heard of, the ability to enforce a test. _ them i had never even heard of, the ability to enforce a test. i— them i had never even heard of, the ability to enforce a test. i would i ability to enforce a test. i would be surprised _ ability to enforce a test. i would be surprised if— ability to enforce a test. i would be surprised if that _ ability to enforce a test. i would be surprised if that was - ability to enforce a test. i would be surprised if that was used i ability to enforce a test. i would be surprised if that was used at| be surprised if that was used at all, be surprised if that was used at all. was — be surprised if that was used at all. was it? _ be surprised if that was used at all, was it? and _ be surprised if that was used at all, was it? and you _ be surprised if that was used at all, was it? and you said - be surprised if that was used at . all, was it? and you said limited. be surprised if that was used at i all, was it? and you said limited. i wonder— all, was it? and you said limited. i wonder if— all, was it? and you said limited. i wonder if there _ all, was it? and you said limited. i wonder if there was _ all, was it? and you said limited. i wonder if there was any _ all, was it? and you said limited. i wonder if there was any example. i all, was it? and you said limited. ij wonder if there was any example. i didn't wonder if there was any example. didn't have any. wonder if there was any example. i didn't have any. regulations i wonder if there was any example. i didn't have any. regulations that i didn't have any. regulations that create offences _ didn't have any. regulations that create offences with _ didn't have any. regulations that create offences with penal- create offences with penal consequences _ create offences with penal consequences have - create offences with penal consequences have to i create offences with penal consequences have to bel create offences with penal- consequences have to be clear. correct — consequences have to be clear. correct. , . , , consequences have to be clear. correct. , ., , , correct. did anybody consult your organisation. _ correct. did anybody consult your organisation, or— correct. did anybody consult your organisation, or their _ correct. did anybody consult your organisation, or theirjudges i correct. did anybody consult your organisation, or theirjudges or . organisation, or their judges or lawyers — organisation, or their judges or lawyers asked _ organisation, or theirjudges or lawyers asked to _ organisation, or theirjudges or lawyers asked to the _ organisation, or theirjudges or lawyers asked to the content . organisation, or theirjudges or| lawyers asked to the content of these _ lawyers asked to the content of these regulations— lawyers asked to the content of these regulations or— lawyers asked to the content of these regulations or the - lawyers asked to the content of these regulations or the act? . lawyers asked to the content ofj these regulations or the act? in these regulations or the act? relation tojudges or these regulations or the act? relation to judges or lawyers i cannot— relation to judges or lawyers i cannot answer. there were a limited number— cannot answer. there were a limited number of— cannot answer. there were a limited number of occasions where meetings were being _ number of occasions where meetings were being held to make decisions where _ were being held to make decisions where i_ were being held to make decisions where i was able to be present to give. _ where i was able to be present to give. what — where i was able to be present to give, what would be the implications from a _ give, what would be the implications from a policing perspective. in the vast majority of cases, where there was any— vast majority of cases, where there was any discussion going on in central— was any discussion going on in central government, we were feeding that they— central government, we were feeding that they carry through the home office _ that they carry through the home office. and i have to say that the relationship that my team had with the home — relationship that my team had with the home office team was exceptionally good. and they absolutely understood the challenges that we _ absolutely understood the challenges that we were pacing and they were offering _ that we were pacing and they were offering our advocate... —— we were facing _ offering our advocate... —— we were facing they— offering our advocate... —— we were facing. they understood that. i have to say— facing. they understood that. i have to say on— facing. they understood that. i have to say on a — facing. they understood that. i have to say on a number of occasions when i to say on a number of occasions when i was _ to say on a number of occasions when i was not _ to say on a number of occasions when i was not able — to say on a number of occasions when i was not able to be at meetings i was absolutely assured subsequently that the _ was absolutely assured subsequently that the home secretary at the time had very— that the home secretary at the time had very strongly pressed the position— had very strongly pressed the position that the position was the policing _ position that the position was the policing implications. and i think, really— policing implications. and i think, really importantly as well, not just a policing — really importantly as well, not just a policing implications for dealing with this — a policing implications for dealing with this particular regulation but the policing applications more broadly— the policing applications more broadly for how we police our communities, because the rest policing — communities, because the rest policing were still going on to one extent— policing were still going on to one extent or— policing were still going on to one extent or another. so i think it certainly— extent or another. so i think it certainly was one of our frustrations that we were not able to end _ frustrations that we were not able to end at — frustrations that we were not able to end at an earlier stage to suggest _ to end at an earlier stage to suggest. there were times we got the opportunity but i would argue that, if this— opportunity but i would argue that, if this happened again, and there was clearly going to have to be an enforcement aspect to that, getting those _ enforcement aspect to that, getting those people in, ultimately, without the primary responsibility for that, to be _ the primary responsibility for that, to be how— the primary responsibility for that, to be how this thing moves forward, which _ to be how this thing moves forward, which seem — to be how this thing moves forward, which seem to me to make sense. i was certainly agree. going back to the previous— was certainly agree. going back to the previous page. _ was certainly agree. going back to the previous page, the _ was certainly agree. going back to the previous page, the power- was certainly agree. going back to the previous page, the power to. the previous page, the power to direct— the previous page, the power to direct a — the previous page, the power to direct a test. _ the previous page, the power to direct a test. it _ the previous page, the power to direct a test. it is _ the previous page, the power to direct a test. it is an— direct a test. it is an extraordinary- direct a test. it is an| extraordinary power. direct a test. it is an extraordinary power. should extraordinary power. correct. should not be one extraordinary power. correct. should riot be one to — extraordinary power. correct. should not be one to criticise _ extraordinary power. correct. should not be one to criticise our— extraordinary power. correct. should not be one to criticise our elected i not be one to criticise our elected representatives _ not be one to criticise our elected representatives but _ not be one to criticise our elected representatives but i _ not be one to criticise our elected representatives but i cannot- not be one to criticise our elected representatives but i cannot see. representatives but i cannot see the purpose _ representatives but i cannot see the purpose i_ representatives but i cannot see the purpose i can — representatives but i cannot see the purpose i can see _ representatives but i cannot see the purpose. i can see all— representatives but i cannot see the purpose. i can see all sorts - representatives but i cannot see the purpose. i can see all sorts of i representatives but i cannot see the purpose. i can see all sorts of use . purpose. i can see all sorts of use of uncertainty. _ purpose. i can see all sorts of use of uncertainty, whether— purpose. i can see all sorts of use of uncertainty, whether it - purpose. i can see all sorts of use of uncertainty, whether it is i of uncertainty, whether it is impractical_ of uncertainty, whether it is impractical having - of uncertainty, whether it is impractical having to - of uncertainty, whether it is impractical having to have l of uncertainty, whether it is impractical having to have a of uncertainty, whether it is - impractical having to have a public health— impractical having to have a public health officer... _ impractical having to have a public health officer... there _ impractical having to have a public health officer... there are - impractical having to have a public health officer... there are so i impractical having to have a publicl health officer... there are so many reasons _ health officer... there are so many reasons why — health officer... there are so many reasons why that _ health officer... there are so many reasons why that is _ health officer... there are so many reasons why that is a _ health officer... there are so many reasons why that is a bad - health officer... there are so many reasons why that is a bad piece i health officer... there are so many reasons why that is a bad piece of. reasons why that is a bad piece of legislation. — reasons why that is a bad piece of legislation-— reasons why that is a bad piece of legislation. yes. again, _ reasons why that is a bad piece of legislation. yes. again, i- reasons why that is a bad piece ofi legislation. yes. again, i shouldn't criticise what _ legislation. yes. again, i shouldn't criticise what i'm _ legislation.“ again, i shouldn't criticise what i'm going _ legislation.“ again, i shouldn't criticise what i'm going to. - legislation. yes. again, i shouldn't criticise what i'm going to. just i legislation. yes. again, i shouldn't criticise what i'm going to. just to l criticise what i'm going to. just to do that from _ criticise what i'm going to. just to do that from a — criticise what i'm going to. just to do that from a practical— criticise what i'm going to. just to do that from a practical policing i do that from a practical policing point _ do that from a practical policing point of— do that from a practical policing point of view. how on earth one form is a reasonable ground to suggest that somebody has or may be affected with a _ that somebody has or may be affected with a virus— that somebody has or may be affected with a virus that you cannot see, seems _ with a virus that you cannot see, seems to— with a virus that you cannot see, seems to me to be quite a challenge in a practical sense.— in a practical sense. sorry, i interrupted, _ in a practical sense. sorry, i interrupted, but _ in a practical sense. sorry, i interrupted, but i _ in a practical sense. sorry, i interrupted, but i think i in a practical sense. sorry, i interrupted, but i think that| in a practical sense. sorry, i. interrupted, but i think that it in a practical sense. sorry, i- interrupted, but i think that it is something — interrupted, but i think that it is something that _ interrupted, but i think that it is something that we _ interrupted, but i think that it is something that we need - interrupted, but i think that it is something that we need to i interrupted, but i think that it is something that we need to go . interrupted, but i think that it is i something that we need to go to, about— something that we need to go to, about whether, _ something that we need to go to, about whether, if _ something that we need to go to, about whether, if we _ something that we need to go to, | about whether, if we have another pandemic— about whether, if we have another pandemic or— about whether, if we have another pandemic orwhen_ about whether, if we have another pandemic or when we _ about whether, if we have another pandemic or when we have - about whether, if we have anotherl pandemic or when we have another pandemic— pandemic or when we have another pandemic that _ pandemic or when we have another pandemic that you _ pandemic or when we have another pandemic that you have _ pandemic or when we have another pandemic that you have on - pandemic or when we have another pandemic that you have on the i pandemic or when we have another. pandemic that you have on the books ready— pandemic that you have on the books ready to _ pandemic that you have on the books ready to go _ pandemic that you have on the books ready to go legislation _ pandemic that you have on the books ready to go legislation that _ pandemic that you have on the books ready to go legislation that is - ready to go legislation that is better— ready to go legislation that is better than— ready to go legislation that is better than this. _ ready to go legislation that is better than this. can - ready to go legislation that is better than this.— ready to go legislation that is better than this. can i take you back to the _ better than this. can i take you back to the first _ better than this. can i take you back to the first question i back to the first question you asked, about consultation and just take us out of the pandemic situation forjust a take us out of the pandemic situation for just a moment. take us out of the pandemic situation forjust a moment. in normal times, where a government department proposing a piece of secondary legislation, a regulation, which one could see the police would be involved in enforcing, would you expect there to be consultation? perhaps that would be one of the functions of the npc c, to engage and be involved in discussions about the drafting of a regulation such as that. . , ., , that. that definitely would be the case. and that _ that. that definitely would be the case. and that is _ that. that definitely would be the case. and that is the _ that. that definitely would be the case. and that is the case - that. that definitely would be the case. and that is the case in i that. that definitely would be the i case. and that is the case in normal circumstances. and that would work again— circumstances. and that would work again through the home office stop the teams in the home office would haveissues the teams in the home office would have issues that we would be working on in any— have issues that we would be working on in any legislative proposal, would — on in any legislative proposal, would be _ on in any legislative proposal, would be working with the respective people _ would be working with the respective people within the npcc and i know that we _ people within the npcc and i know that we didn't cover all of npcc but whilst _ that we didn't cover all of npcc but whilst i _ that we didn't cover all of npcc but whilst i was the chair and i had a small— whilst i was the chair and i had a small team _ whilst i was the chair and i had a small team around me, the way that the npcc_ small team around me, the way that the npcc would operate is that all of the _ the npcc would operate is that all of the key— the npcc would operate is that all of the key areas of policing have a lead person, it would be an existing chief— lead person, it would be an existing chief constable so he or she would do the _ chief constable so he or she would do the job— chief constable so he or she would do the job but they would have people — do the job but they would have people working with them, and we would _ people working with them, and we would be _ people working with them, and we would be intimately engaged with the teams _ would be intimately engaged with the teams within the home office, and in the coronavirus scenario, that was all happening at a rapid speed, but i still— all happening at a rapid speed, but i still think— all happening at a rapid speed, but i still think that the lack of an ability— i still think that the lack of an ability for— i still think that the lack of an ability for us to be able directly to a given _ ability for us to be able directly to a given input around quite frankly— to a given input around quite franklyjust the sheer practical achievement, would certainly be something that i would suggest is helpful, _ something that i would suggest is helpful, going forward, and if we could _ helpful, going forward, and if we could look— helpful, going forward, and if we could look at... page 20 of your witness — could look at... page 20 of your witness statement, paragraph 81... it is witness statement, paragraph 81... it is there _ witness statement, paragraph 81... it is there that you really identify this issue. you say that, sometimes, the notice period that you had regulations being changed was only a few hours. therefore, perhaps obviously no opportunity to engage at all in how that regulation might be drafted. and as you have already mentioned, these are not normal times and there might be very good reasons, to me, to change regulations quickly, but with your experience, over the pandemic, regulations quickly, but with your experience, overthe pandemic, do you think that more could have been done to arrange systems so that police input could have been more effectively or simply provided in the drafting and the thinking behind these regulations? i the drafting and the thinking behind these regulations?— these regulations? i think more should have _ these regulations? i think more should have been _ these regulations? i think more should have been done. - these regulations? i think more should have been done. and . these regulations? i think more should have been done. and i l these regulations? i think more - should have been done. and i would extend _ should have been done. and i would extend that, also, to more home office _ extend that, also, to more home office involvement directly as well, because _ office involvement directly as well, because my recollection was that, on occasion, _ because my recollection was that, on occasion, where legislation or regulations would emerge, even the home _ regulations would emerge, even the home office team seemed quite surprised, and we put it there in hours. _ surprised, and we put it there in hours, there was our example of a regulation — hours, there was our example of a regulation that was going to change at one _ regulation that was going to change at one minute past midnight on a particular— at one minute past midnight on a particular day, and we received the signed _ particular day, and we received the signed off— particular day, and we received the signed off regulation, signed off by the secretary of state for help and social— the secretary of state for help and social care, at 11:45, so we had precisely— social care, at 11:45, so we had precisely 16— social care, at 11:45, so we had precisely 16 minutes. the process that we _ precisely 16 minutes. the process that we then undertook, not in that ihcidehce _ that we then undertook, not in that incidence but in all incidences when the final— incidence but in all incidences when the final regulation arrived he would — the final regulation arrived he would look at that, particularly the team _ would look at that, particularly the team working with us from the college — team working with us from the college of policing with work through to provide the operational briefing _ through to provide the operational briefing documents that we would then send out. those documents are to be _ then send out. those documents are to be translated into welsh, for wales, — to be translated into welsh, for wales, then we will share those documents, and in that particular example — documents, and in that particular example when we had 16 minutes, i had conversations and it was very cleai’, _ had conversations and it was very clear. with — had conversations and it was very clear, with the home secretary at the time, — clear, with the home secretary at the time, that we would not be enforcing — the time, that we would not be enforcing that regulation on that day, and — enforcing that regulation on that day, and it was going to take as probably. — day, and it was going to take as probably, probably 24—36 hours, to -et probably, probably 24—36 hours, to get us _ probably, probably 24—36 hours, to get us to— probably, probably 24—36 hours, to get us to a — probably, probably 24—36 hours, to get us to a place where i was confident— get us to a place where i was confident that police officers out there _ confident that police officers out there knew what they needed to do. and, there knew what they needed to do. arid. of— there knew what they needed to do. and, of course, the challenge that came _ and, of course, the challenge that came with — and, of course, the challenge that came with that, a new regulation comes— came with that, a new regulation comes irr— came with that, a new regulation comes in at— came with that, a new regulation comes in at one minute past midnight and you _ comes in at one minute past midnight and you would get to seven o'clock the next _ and you would get to seven o'clock the next morning and the round—off people _ the next morning and the round—off people on— the next morning and the round—off people on tv and radio studios would be talking _ people on tv and radio studios would be talking about this, and i would then have — be talking about this, and i would then have to go and respond and at times— then have to go and respond and at times make — then have to go and respond and at times make it very clear that we would _ times make it very clear that we would not — times make it very clear that we would not be enforcing that immediately because it was unfair to put the _ immediately because it was unfair to put the officers in a position where they did _ put the officers in a position where they did not understand precisely what it— they did not understand precisely what it was they were supposed to be doim} _ what it was they were supposed to be doim} so _ what it was they were supposed to be doin. _ ., ., what it was they were supposed to be doinu. ., ., . doing. so that one policing challenge _ doing. so that one policing challenge which _ doing. so that one policing challenge which was - doing. so that one policing | challenge which was simply doing. so that one policing - challenge which was simply the lack of early involvement for your teams, and then the timing, similar point, the fact that you hadn't had involvement, you might not have had notice of it, and then the timing issues would have provided those. paragraph 80 you describe a different sort of challenge. about the substance of the regulations. in the substance of the regulations. in the first sentence perhaps you identify two different similar points, one is the difficulty where the regulations are black clarity for specificity in themselves. and secondly were possibly additionally in some cases, where the guidance issued by the government about the regulation or government messaging is inconsistent with or goes beyond what the regulation actually says. in paragraphs 83 through to 85, provide us with the worked example of some of of these problems as i emerge in fact in relation to one of those very early once we saw in that document, the regulation which as it were provided the legal backbone to the first looked the regulation making it unlawful to leave your home with a excuse in march 2020, on page 80 sorry

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