a good understanding of the impact on the nhs capacity. what i had a good instinct for was seeing what was happening elsewhere in the world and knowing having had a number of conversations with mr sweeney about the legislation that might be needed, the worst case scenario which worryingly was looking like something that might actually happen, but a worst—case scenario, we hadn't done any of the planning, how people will get fed if they have to stay at home, what will happen to schools if people have to stay at home and it is those, you might expect my policy background as a domestic civil servants that is probably where my mind went to more than else. i probably still at that point fervently hoped that the planning we would have to do for that extreme scenario wasn't in fact going to be needed, but i really knew we had to get that extreme scenario actually worked up. we have heard ou scenario actually worked up. we have heard you describe _ scenario actually worked up. we have heard you describe in _ scenario actually worked up. we have heard you describe in your— scenario actually worked up. we have heard you describe in your statement| heard you describe in your statement as well a series of meetings which took place over that weekend. we will have other witnesses who can help us so i will not take you through in detail but i want to ask about one of the meetings which you describe of paragraph 65 of your witness statement on page 35, and i think it would have been on the saturday, where you state that i think it is in preparation for a large meeting involving more senior decision—makers, there was what you describe as a scratchy meeting with the dhs c and others that mark sweeney chaired where news words you say it is clear the dh sea view was to wait until the last possible moment to tell people we had to stay at home, so what are you trying to convey about that word scratchy and the content of that meeting? i convey about that word scratchy and the content of that meeting?- the content of that meeting? i think ou were the content of that meeting? i think you were right. _ the content of that meeting? i think you were right, there _ the content of that meeting? i think you were right, there were - the content of that meeting? i think you were right, there were lots - the content of that meeting? i think you were right, there were lots of. you were right, there were lots of meeting notes and papers and details of all the meetings that happened on that saturday when we were trying to find the note of this meeting, i think we worked out it was actually on the sunday, so it was the sunday meeting of the prime minister and this was the prep meeting before then to make sure, a classic bit of civil servant, to make sure the civil servant, to make sure the civil servants understand what the other civil servants are going to site and that you have some sort of coordination so you are using the ministerial time most effectively. the reason, i remember this is scratchy, is because at this point it felt we really were in slightly different places in terms of a group of us in the centre who had got much further on how bad this was quite quickly and are perfectly reasonable should say concern from dhsc who knew as well if not better than we did that the planning wasn't there to support this, they needed to be more time to get some of this planning actually done. the scratchy nurse was precisely that at this point we were in an unbelievably urgent hurry to get to where we needed to be as fast as possible. one of the points mr cummings made in his evidence yesterday as we shouldn't assume there was some sort of transition from the containment plan to the suppression plan that everyone agreed with and that it was seamless. in fact over this weekend people were disagreeing, there was uncertainty, it was by no means a smooth transition from plan a to plan b and it sounds like you agreed. i plan b and it sounds like you aareed. ., , , ., plan b and it sounds like you aareed. ., , ., ., ., agreed. i do, because we had got to agreed. i do, because we had got to a different place _ agreed. i do, because we had got to a different place much _ agreed. i do, because we had got to a different place much faster - agreed. i do, because we had got to a different place much faster and i agreed. i do, because we had got to a different place much faster and it| a different place much faster and it is, it is also reasonable if you think about it from the perspective of the dhsc colleagues involved. they were more well—versed, might have understood the consequences better for the health operation. have understood the consequences betterfor the health operation. i wouldn't want to give the impression they didn't have some valid points, ijust think we they didn't have some valid points, i just think we had moved they didn't have some valid points, ijust think we had moved into a different way of thinking about what might happen. different way of thinking about what might happen-— might happen. lastly on this, a coule of might happen. lastly on this, a coume of very _ might happen. lastly on this, a couple of very high _ might happen. lastly on this, a couple of very high level - might happen. lastly on this, a - couple of very high level questions, mr cain yesterday gave evidence that although to be clear no decision to look down was made over that and i think that is commonly agreed evidence, his impression was that over that weekend it became the collective view, no doubt mr cummingsmy point is but still it became the the collective view that there would need to be a lockdown. do you agree with that. it is certainly — do you agree with that. it is certainly how _ do you agree with that. it is certainly how i _ do you agree with that. it is certainly howl saw - do you agree with that. it is certainly howl saw it. - do you agree with that. it is certainly howl saw it. as i do you agree with that. it is| certainly howl saw it. as we do you agree with that. it is - certainly howl saw it. as we have heard you — certainly howl saw it. as we have heard you dropped _ certainly howl saw it. as we have heard you dropped out _ certainly howl saw it. as we have heard you dropped out of - certainly howl saw it. as we have heard you dropped out of the - certainly howl saw it. as we have i heard you dropped out of the picture because you became unwell, but of course we know the lockdown was announced 10 days later on the monday of the week after. we were expecting the lockdown to happen earlier than that? you have given us a clue to your answer already in terms of how much needed to be done, but your own view, how do you expect it to happen earlier not? i but your own view, how do you expect it to happen earlier not?— it to happen earlier not? i don't know is the _ it to happen earlier not? i don't know is the honest _ it to happen earlier not? i don't know is the honest answer. - it to happen earlier not? i don't know is the honest answer. i i it to happen earlier not? i don't - know is the honest answer. i thought it would happen as soon as it was possible to do it because there were some really big questions to ask and answer. we some really big questions to ask and answer. ~ ., some really big questions to ask and answer. ~ . ., ., ., ., answer. we have heard that a lot went on on _ answer. we have heard that a lot went on on the _ answer. we have heard that a lot went on on the following - answer. we have heard that a lot went on on the following week. went on on the following week involving mrjohnson and others but you were not involved in any of that because your whole family got covid. you were off work from that monday for i think the best part of three weeks. ., , ., _ weeks. the other thing i should say and it might — weeks. the other thing i should say and it might help _ weeks. the other thing i should say and it might help you _ weeks. the other thing i should say and it might help you with - weeks. the other thing i should say and it might help you with the - and it might help you with the evidence in the e—mails and a record, i am evidence in the e—mails and a record, iam not evidence in the e—mails and a record, i am not sure we refer to it as a lockdown at that point, i don't think we were talking about being a lockdown, we were talking about people having to stay at home from memory. people having to stay at home from memo . ~ ., ., people having to stay at home from memo . a, ., ., ., ~ people having to stay at home from memo . a, ., ., ., memory. moving on, looking ahead, he came back to — memory. moving on, looking ahead, he came back to work— memory. moving on, looking ahead, he came back to work on _ memory. moving on, looking ahead, he came back to work on april _ memory. moving on, looking ahead, he came back to work on april the - memory. moving on, looking ahead, he came back to work on april the 2nd - came back to work on april the 2nd which i think was about two weeks ago you were off, and then we have heard you were in post until february of 2021 when he left the cabinet office. during that time, the prime minister was very unwell and there were issues for you to deal with in that regard. your boss marks it resigned and was replaced ijy marks it resigned and was replaced by simon case, you had serious concerns about working conditions at the cabinet office and there were steps you took to try and address that problem. there was an involvement on your part in a number of other covid—related matters so would it be fair to say it was a very busy and demanding time for you following your return to work? undoubtedly. ii following your return to work? undoubtedly.— undoubtedly. if we can look at paragraph _ undoubtedly. if we can look at paragraph 73 _ undoubtedly. if we can look at paragraph 73 of— undoubtedly. if we can look at paragraph 73 of your _ undoubtedly. if we can look at paragraph 73 of your witness l paragraph 73 of your witness statement, age 40, you give, perhaps if we can zoom out to see the whole page, it says the title is presence, but you give us a vignette if you like of an incident that took place on yourfirst like of an incident that took place on your first day back, which we will look but i think you are suggesting that it in fact drew together some of the themes of your experience that was to come, was in fact happened you say was that the relativelyjunior member of the relatively junior member of the staff relativelyjunior member of the staff at number 10 came to europe with a concern about what was going to happen whether prisoners who were in unsafe condition in prisons should be released or not. and without reading out the paragraphs, the essence of it was you were surprised and concerned that a decision hadn't been taken at departmental level at are seen to be a certain amount of failure to take a certain amount of failure to take a needed decision, that right? yes. i said in a statement, _ a needed decision, that right? yes. i said in a statement, i _ a needed decision, that right? yes. i said in a statement, i was - a needed decision, that right? jazz i said in a statement, i was worried the decisions would probably have been taken in the department and that wasn't going to be the case, it should have been taken in the cabinet committee structure set up, so the notion that the decision was still high and was dependent a prime minister personally taking a view was a cause for concern for me. and that it had needed to be raised with you by a junior member of staff that you by a “unior member of staff that is not you by a junior member of staff that is not the way _ you by a junior member of staff that is not the way the government should have been running?— is not the way the government should have been running? now, although she was technically — have been running? now, although she was technically still _ have been running? now, although she was technically still in _ have been running? now, although she was technically still in civil _ was technically still in civil service terms ginger, rather brilliant, and a private secretary responsible for home affairs socially was still doing herjob, but the fact that it was a private secretary in number 10 who was having to afford such a big question is not how government should operate. i is not how government should 0 erate. , ., ., ., ., operate. i should have made that clear, operate. i should have made that clear. she — operate. i should have made that clear, she was _ operate. i should have made that clear, she wasjunior_ operate. i should have made that clear, she wasjunior to _ operate. i should have made that clear, she wasjunior to you - operate. i should have made that clear, she wasjunior to you but l clear, she was junior to you but that includes rather a lot of people know the civil service. let's look at paragraph 74, because you say in retrospect many of the systemic problems that caused substantial issues in managing the response were visible in this moment. first of all the sucking into number 1002 much of the sucking into number 1002 much of the decision—making by the political machine, and this compounded a narrow perspective, secondly a general lack of knowledge or understanding of how large parts of the state operate. thirdly and over ideological in your view approach to individual decisions, an absence of the accountable people in departments being involved or sufficiently involving themselves in decision—making, cabinet government not serving its usual purpose, unreasonable pressure on number 10 private office and finally an absence of humanity. we will go to most if not all of those things in the questions i will ask you after a break we may have shortly but i want to pick on magnet very last consideration. you say and absence of humanity. it is a broad term, a powerful term, what did you mean? i am sure we will talk more about this in general, but i think in this particular example it was the fact that there wintry individual prison officers at risk, public servants who were just coming to work and doing theirjob, that individual prisoners who had already in effect been punished for the crime they had committed by being in prison, the lack of care or compassion, there was a responsibility to look after those people, and there was a responsibility to look up to the families of the people for whom the prisoners might be returning back to. itjust felt prisoners might be returning back to. it just felt very cold actually in terms of the decision—making, but all of those broader points are true as well. i included this as an illustration, i am sure there are countless more. we illustration, i am sure there are countless more.— illustration, i am sure there are countless more. we will go on and touch on i — countless more. we will go on and touch on i think _ countless more. we will go on and touch on i think most _ countless more. we will go on and touch on i think most if _ countless more. we will go on and touch on i think most if not - countless more. we will go on and touch on i think most if not all - countless more. we will go on and touch on i think most if not all of l touch on i think most if not all of those things, but i will move on, i went for a break. i those things, but i will move on, i went for a break.— went for a break. i shall return at 11:25am. studio: you are 11:25am. — studio: you are watching a live of the uk covid inquiry on bbc news. we have been hearing from helen macnamara, the former deputy cabinet secretary, she was a key official who wrote briefing papers for boris johnson to take to cabinet but she told the inquiry this morning that he failed to heed some of the caution and those papers. she painted a picture of ministers being far too optimistic about covid. she said that the in meetings was unbelievably bullish and that there was lapping at the italian switch to her felt completely wrong. she said the de facto assumption was that the uk was going to be great at tackling the virus. we can listen to what she said about the government's plan or lack thereof. here is a little of that exchange spots. you lack thereof. here is a little of that exchange spots.— lack thereof. here is a little of that exchange spots. you do say that around this time, _ that exchange spots. you do say that around this time, in _ that exchange spots. you do say that around this time, in march _ that exchange spots. you do say that around this time, in march she - around this time, in march she started asking for the plans, so called, used inverted commas, so you could dovetail the advice that she would be giving with the plans that you thought would be taken out of the drawer and implemented, did you everfind the drawer and implemented, did you ever find those plans?— the drawer and implemented, did you everfind those plans? irlape. do you ever find those plans? nope. do you think they existed. _ ever find those plans? nope. do you think they existed. i _ ever find those plans? nope. do you think they existed. i don't _ ever find those plans? nope. do you think they existed. i don't know. - think they existed. i don't know. they didn't _ think they existed. i don't know. they didn't exist _ think they existed. i don't know. they didn't exist in _ think they existed. i don't know. they didn't exist in a _ think they existed. i don't know. they didn't exist in a way - think they existed. i don't know. they didn't exist in a way that i think they existed. i don't know. i they didn't exist in a way that was usable _ they didn't exist in a way that was usable or— they didn't exist in a way that was usable or that anybody had, and i think_ usable or that anybody had, and i think there — usable or that anybody had, and i think there is the cabinet office crisis _ think there is the cabinet office crisis response plan but also the pandemic— crisis response plan but also the pandemic readiness was the responsibility of the department of health, _ responsibility of the department of health, so the working assumption, incorrect. _ health, so the working assumption, incorrect, was at the department of health _ incorrect, was at the department of health had — incorrect, was at the department of health had a whole series of plans that were — health had a whole series of plans that were ready for this and that there _ that were ready for this and that there then was a sequential or a related — there then was a sequential or a related series of plans with the cabinet — related series of plans with the cabinet office to coordinate, but i don't _ cabinet office to coordinate, but i don't think— cabinet office to coordinate, but i don't think anybody in the cabinet office _ don't think anybody in the cabinet office but— don't think anybody in the cabinet office but the beginning middle and end of— office but the beginning middle and end of the whole job was responding to the _ end of the whole job was responding to the pandemic, they were supposed to the pandemic, they were supposed to be coordinating the plans that other— to be coordinating the plans that other people had that had existed and were — other people had that had existed and were practised, i don't think i saw plan — and were practised, i don't think i saw plan for— and were practised, i don't think i saw plan for that either, i am not saying _ saw plan for that either, i am not saying both — saw plan for that either, i am not saying both of these things existed but it— saying both of these things existed but it is— saying both of these things existed but it is sort of a gap on a gap. 30 but it is sort of a gap on a gap. sc plans but it is sort of a gap on a gap. plans that but it is sort of a gap on a gap. if plans that should but it is sort of a gap on a gap. 5r plans that should have been a different places but at least part of the problem, what she really wanted to see whether response for the department of health focusing on this pandemic preparedness set of issues? . this pandemic preparedness set of issues? , ., �* ~' this pandemic preparedness set of issues? , ., �* ~ ., issues? yes. i don't think it would be possible. _ issues? yes. i don't think it would be possible, there _ issues? yes. i don't think it would be possible, there might- issues? yes. i don't think it would be possible, there might be - issues? yes. i don't think it would be possible, there might be good| be possible, there might be good reasons— be possible, there might be good reasons why you can publish these but i _ reasons why you can publish these but i attached my witness statement to the _ but i attached my witness statement to the eurozone contingency plans that we _ to the eurozone contingency plans that we had in the cabinet office and there — that we had in the cabinet office and there was an operations manual, and there was an operations manual, a meetings _ and there was an operations manual, a meetings manual, communications, it is basically— a meetings manual, communications, it is basically a lot of groundwork which _ it is basically a lot of groundwork which even — it is basically a lot of groundwork which even if there had been plans they wouldn't have been perfect for this time, _ they wouldn't have been perfect for this time, i— they wouldn't have been perfect for this time, i think it is important to say— this time, i think it is important to say that, _ this time, i think it is important to say that, but that is a sort of thing _ to say that, but that is a sort of thing that— to say that, but that is a sort of thing that i_ to say that, but that is a sort of thing that i thought existed, and or something — thing that i thought existed, and or something like the plans for new deal exit — something like the plans for new deal exit exit which were incredibly thorough _ deal exit exit which were incredibly thorough and ready to go in that it was perfectly possible to pick it up and see _ was perfectly possible to pick it up and see what meeting happened in order~ _ and see what meeting happened in order~ the — and see what meeting happened in order. the thing i thought i was doing _ order. the thing i thought i was doing was— order. the thing i thought i was doing wasjust taking order. the thing i thought i was doing was just taking all of that planning — doing was just taking all of that planning and then putting on top of it this _ planning and then putting on top of it this is _ planning and then putting on top of it this is how we will manage cabinet — it this is how we will manage cabinet and collective decision—making and these are the structures— decision—making and these are the structures and pray we should arrange — structures and pray we should arrange ourselves in the cabinet office _ arrange ourselves in the cabinet office i— arrange ourselves in the cabinet office. i don't think even at this time _ office. i don't think even at this time i_ office. i don't think even at this time i really understood that wasn't in fact— time i really understood that wasn't in fact the _ time i really understood that wasn't in fact the question.— in fact the question. there was nothin: in fact the question. there was nothing for _ in fact the question. there was nothing for you _ in fact the question. there was nothing for you to _ in fact the question. there was nothing for you to start - in fact the question. there was nothing for you to start with i in fact the question. there was i nothing for you to start with from the department of health? irla. you the department of health? no. you detail in your statement, you say you have gone back. studio: you'rejoining us on the coverage of the uk covid inquiry and we can go live to our political correspondent nick eardley who has been following this. we have heard a lot about the warnings that helen macnamara gave 10 days before that first lockdown in march 2020. can you expand on what she said? i think the icture you expand on what she said? i think the picture we _ you expand on what she said? i think the picture we are _ you expand on what she said? i think the picture we are getting _ you expand on what she said? i think the picture we are getting from - the picture we are getting from helen macnamara this morning is one that the government was too optimistic in the early days of the pandemic, bullish as she put it about the uk's ability to get through covid. she talked about senior people including the prime minister lapping at what was going on in italy and expecting itjust wouldn't happen in the uk. see also paints a picture of the government being woefully under prepared. the bit that really caught my ear this morning was when she talked about the health secretary at the time of hancock saying to cabinet time and time again that there was a plan to deal with the pandemic. we have heard over the past few days at this inquiry from dominic cummings, martin reynolds who was another top lee cain, and now from ms mcnamara, that there plans just weren't in place. and when it came to the bit they weren't available so she seems to be suggesting by my reading of it that mr hancock wasn't telling a full truth to his cabinet colleagues. there is also this picture that has emerged from various witnesses this week that the government knew 10 days before the first lockdown was introduced in march 2020 that it was going to be inevitable. there was a passage in helen macnamara's evidence which were shown to the inquiry that was really struggling. i want to read it out because i think it is very significant. this is the 13th of march 2020. a good full 10 days before lockdown was announced in the uk. she went in to speak to some other top officials in number 10 and said, "there is no plan, we are in huge trouble, i have come through here to the prime minister office to tell you all we are absolutely expletive. i think this country is heading for disaster. i think we are going to kill thousands of people as disaster. i think we are going to kill thousands of people as soon as i have kill thousands of people as soon as i have been — kill thousands of people as soon as i have been told _ kill thousands of people as soon as i have been told this _ kill thousands of people as soon as i have been told this i _ kill thousands of people as soon as i have been told this i have - kill thousands of people as soon as i have been told this i have come l i have been told this i have come through to see you. it seems from the conversation you are having this is correct." a real remarkable exchange there in the prime minister's study where the deputy cabinet secretary, one of the top civil servants in the country is going to tell senior people in number 10 that the country is in deep trouble and that she thinks thousands of people are going to die from the pandemic. the obvious next question is what does the government to do in those circumstances and have heard a picture that over the next few days, the 13th and 14th and 15th of march 2020, it became clear the uk was going to have to lockdown. one of the key questions that hasn't been answered really is whether that could have happened quicker. clearly some officials think it should have happened quicker, lee cain told the inquiry yesterday that he thinks it took too long, but then it was also a huge undertaking so there is that question of balance, was there a plan, a lot of people seem to be saying no, did the uk realise quickly enough that it was going to have to lockdown and should it have acted quicker once it realised the lockdown was a notable? brute acted quicker once it realised the lockdown was a notable? we should take this moment _ lockdown was a notable? we should take this moment to _ lockdown was a notable? we should take this moment to say _ lockdown was a notable? we should take this moment to say some - lockdown was a notable? we should take this moment to say some of. lockdown was a notable? we should | take this moment to say some of the evidence we have been hearing has had some bad language so we apologise to viewers for that. she also spoke about blindly following the science and she said that many of those including the fourth trimester borisjohnson didn't trimester boris johnson didn't understand trimester borisjohnson didn't understand the science and it was a problem, can you expand on that? share problem, can you expand on that? are reall problem, can you expand on that? fife: really interesting bit from helen macnamara were some of her e—mails to other government officials were brought up on the inquiry screen and she questioned the idea of treating the science, this kind of praise that started to be used by government quite regularly to mean the advice they were getting from scientists, whether that should be treated as helen mataram and put it to of god and i remember covering a time, political correspondent, there was some scepticism from parts of the scientific community, there was a question about some of the science was and how much of anybody agreed with what the government scientists were telling them but it is fascinating to see top officials in government raising big questions about whether the government was to blindly following the science. that is something else this inquiry is clearly trying to get to the bottom of, whether there was a groupthink almost in government where scientific advisers were saying one thing at the government ministers werejust thing at the government ministers were just saying that is it, we need to go with whatever they are saying, clearly some officials thought that was a problem. clearly some officials thought that was a problem-— clearly some officials thought that was a problem. thank you. you need to net was a problem. thank you. you need to get ready — was a problem. thank you. you need to get ready for _ was a problem. thank you. you need to get ready for when _ was a problem. thank you. you need to get ready for when the _ was a problem. thank you. you need to get ready for when the inquiry - to get ready for when the inquiry begins again. that is nick eardley giving us the latest of the evidence we have heard from helen macnamara. she was also asked about the restrictions at the time in march 2020 about people attending football matches and she said the government position at the time was there was no restriction is required as the games were taking place outdoors but she said bells started ringing and she said bells started ringing and she said bells started ringing and she said nobody in government who was involved in those discussions had ever been to a football game the way most people have done so she was very concerned that they wouldn't be able to identify the potential risks. ., able to identify the potential risks. :, :, able to identify the potential risks. ., ., ., ., , risks. you mentioned also there was no clear pattern _ risks. you mentioned also there was no clear pattern of _ risks. you mentioned also there was no clear pattern of working - risks. you mentioned also there was no clear pattern of working with - risks. you mentioned also there was no clear pattern of working with mr. no clear pattern of working with mr johnson, we will come back to this, but was at an extraordinary matter? that is a very good question, i am not sure _ that is a very good question, i am not sure whether they would never have been— not sure whether they would never have been a normal pattern of working — have been a normal pattern of working for mrjohnson, but i do know— working for mrjohnson, but i do know the — working for mrjohnson, but i do know the monomaniacal focus of him and his— know the monomaniacal focus of him and his political team for reasons which _ and his political team for reasons which i _ and his political team for reasons which i am — and his political team for reasons which i am sure they would happily -ive which i am sure they would happily give on _ which i am sure they would happily give onjust focusing on eu exit from _ give onjust focusing on eu exit from july— give onjust focusing on eu exit from july 2019 and then getting to the election meant that they at least _ the election meant that they at least in — the election meant that they at least in the way it was communicated to us, _ least in the way it was communicated to us, everything else could wait until— to us, everything else could wait until after— to us, everything else could wait until after this question was settled _ until after this question was settled and then there was going to come _ settled and then there was going to come a _ settled and then there was going to come a very large amount of change. we were _ come a very large amount of change. we were just not sure what that change — we were just not sure what that change was ever going to be. apologies, we gave that to you without explaining what it was. it is about helen macdonald armah's evidence that there wasn't a business as usual model injanuary 2020 and she spoke about range of reasons for that including brexit and a 2019 general election and she said there was an awful lot of people who weren't sure whatjobs they had and that she was concerned about a lack of real world experience around the table. she went on to say the cabinet office and whitehall had developed some unhealthy working habits. that is a little of what helen macnamara has been telling the uk covid inquiry. this is of course a fact—finding mission, no one will be found guilty or not guilty as a result of these hearings which are expected to go until at least 2026. what it is is trying to prepare for the next crisis which experts have said is a case of not if but when comets lessons are trying to be learnt from the handling of the government, and this section of the inquiry is looking at the governance and the political decisions that were made at that time and we have heard a lot of evidence about the push and pull between the political aides who we have been hearing from earlier this week and also the civil service who were trying to also come in and to make a lot of decisions. earlier this week we heard from one of boris johnson's former top aides dominic cummings who was very critical, he has since fallen out of boris johnson and he quit in 2020, he was very critical of what happened. we can hear a little bit more of what helen macnamara said. she previously had written a report about the government culture during the pandemic and that showed the weight meetings was held wasn't working and she said that women were talked over and people shouted at each other. helen macnamara was fined for attending a party in the cabinet office during lockdown and later apologised, in her words she said it was an error ofjudgment. we are watching bbc news. we are waiting for the uk covid inquiry to resume. it been hearing a series of evidence. we can take in and out of the live page. these are where all of the updates will be brought and you my colleagues there filing updates as they come. nick eardley who we just heard from has been talking about the stark warning that helen macnamara says she gave 10 days before that first lockdown in march 2020. we also heard about the prison policy, the latest update you can see, she said there was an absence of humanity in terms of the official decisions made earlier in the pandemic particularly relating to people in prisons. she also went on to say it felt very cold in terms of the decision—making. she has also recounted the moment, 10 days before the lockdown, where she had warned, she said she had been told there was a plan but that she didn't see, couldn't find there was one and said the country was headed for disaster and that in her own words she said they were going to kill thousands of people and this is what she told a group at the time, 10 days before that first lockdown in march 2020. she told the inquiry that there was increasing concern that the uk government was radically in the wrong place and there was a sense of foreboding. she said she hopes nobody sitting and that office ever hazard again. this is a break in proceedings at the moment and we are waiting to continue helen macnamara's evidence. she is of course a former deputy cabinet secretary and was one of the most senior civil servants at that time during the pandemic. she described borisjohnson as having a breezy confidence about the unfolding pandemic and she said that charged with her. she spoke about the jovial tone he had and he employed when discussing whether to shake people's hands when he visited a hospital and it does sound like it is resuming now so we will take you there. we had now so we will take you there. e had reached the moment where you returned to work following your period of illness with covid. i think we said your return date was the 2nd of april. one of the issues you had to address as soon as he got back was the question of the prime minister's illness and how the cabinet office was going to respond to that. i think it was a thursday, that 2nd of april, and at that point i think it is right the prime minister was already out and self isolating in his flat in downing street and was admitted to hospital over that next weekend and as we all know became very ill. you describe in your witness statement one of the tasks that you had to address. it was thinking through how as a matter of constitutional propriety the government would continue whilst he was unwell. in particular in the event that he became too ill to communicate his wishes which as we know he did. you describe in your witness stations it might statement discussions that took place and you refer to dominic raab as the first secretary of state with specific responsibilities and in paragraph 94 you refer to making it up —— responsibilities and in paragraph 94 you referto making it up —— might having to make it up as you went along. the sense of your statement is that there were no plans for you to reach for to

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