i think we should let the old people get it and protect others. the pm says a lot of my backbenchers think that and i must say i agree with them. now, the theme in those notes is similar is it not to that whatsapp we looked up between you and the prime minister. it is not saying that the economy is the main argument. it is related but it is different. it is saying look it is only old people who get this disease, why don't we just let them get it so the young people can live their lives? is that something which you think influenced the prime minister during this period? i think ou can minister during this period? i think you can see _ minister during this period? i think you can see from _ minister during this period? i think you can see from the _ minister during this period? i think you can see from the evidence - minister during this period? i think you can see from the evidence i i you can see from the evidence i think he was concerned about the damage on society as a whole and he was trying to view it through that lens. i think some of the language is obviously not what i would have used but for me the core argument was always the same, which was your choice is that we lock down and control the virus and we do so as quick as possible to minimise the cost to health and cost of the economy at the same time. the only reason you have any of these conversations is you have no intention of bringing in further suppression measures which, for me, was always morally and politically a nonstarter. it was never something any responsible government or any responsible prime minister could or would undertake. sol responsible prime minister could or would undertake. so i felt a lot of this was just noise and distraction. and when reality became clearer as it would, he would and you know did take up the measures. i think some of it is important to focus on... i think you reacted too late, particular some of the later lockdown is but he did actually do what i believe to be the moral and responsible course of action it was just later than it should have been. mr cain, thank you very much. those are all my questions. there are two sets of questions from court participants. sets of questions from court participants-_ sets of questions from court participants._ mrl sets of questions from court - participants._ mr cain, i participants. there are. mr cain, i ask questions _ participants. there are. mr cain, i ask questions on _ participants. there are. mr cain, i ask questions on behalf _ participants. there are. mr cain, i ask questions on behalf of - participants. there are. mr cain, i ask questions on behalf of the - participants. there are. mr cain, i. ask questions on behalf of the long covid groups. i don't think we need to go to it but if you need to let me know. there is an e—mail to the cmo's me know. there is an e—mail to the cmo's office dated june 2020 in which it says reported that the cabinet office had asked the hrc to look at communications around the recovery of patients follow the limo following covid—19 infection. were you aware of this request for information about the recovery of patients following covid—19? i was patients following covid-19? i was not, no. patients following covid-19? i was not. no- you _ patients following covid-19? i was not, no. you say _ patients following covid-19? i was not, no. you say you _ patients following covid-19? i was not, no. you say you weren't? - patients following covid-19? i was| not, no. you say you weren't? can ou hel not, no. you say you weren't? can you help us — not, no. you say you weren't? can you help us as — not, no. you say you weren't? can you help us as to _ not, no. you say you weren't? can you help us as to whether- not, no. you say you weren't? can you help us as to whether there i not, no. you say you weren't? can i you help us as to whether there was any discussion in number ten about communicating publicly the risk of long—term health impacts of covid—19 at the time? i long-term health impacts of covid-19 at the time?— at the time? i think initially the understanding _ at the time? i think initially the understanding around - at the time? i think initially the understanding around long - at the time? i think initially the l understanding around long covid at the time? i think initially the - understanding around long covid was minimal in numberten. understanding around long covid was minimal in number ten. i think we were still gathering evidence much of my time which obviously i left in the november of 2020. so during my time i think we were still quite unclear on some of it but it was becoming more pronounced but i don't recall any specific campaigns to it at that point. i think again it would have been the kind of press conferences where we would have discussed it but at the time the evidence was maybe not as advanced as it later became.— as it later became. batted right throu~h as it later became. batted right through to _ as it later became. batted right through to november _ as it later became. batted right through to november 2020 - as it later became. batted right through to november 2020 you as it later became. batted right - through to november 2020 you say? yes? i through to november 2020 you say? yes? , . ., through to november 2020 you say? yes? , ., yes? i see. i might come back to that in a moment. _ yes? i see. i might come back to that in a moment. and _ yes? i see. i might come back to that in a moment. and we - yes? i see. i might come back to that in a moment. and we put i yes? i see. i might come back toj that in a moment. and we put up yes? i see. i might come back to i that in a moment. and we put up to 83370, please? on the 5th ofjuly 2020, nhs england announced your covid recovery service, online rehabilitation service. so simon stephens said the service. so simon stephens said the service would benefit, in quotes and it is there, tens of thousands of people who are suffering long—term effects of coronavirus. you have said today that you met with the nhs regularly, even many times a week. in any of those regular meetings was this announcement ever discussed? this announcement ever discussed ? not this announcement ever discussed? not that i recall but you will appreciate there were a huge number of meetings and issues raised but i don't recall that, no. fik. of meetings and issues raised but i don't recall that, no.— don't recall that, no. ok. you have soken don't recall that, no. ok. you have spoken today _ don't recall that, no. ok. you have spoken today about _ don't recall that, no. ok. you have spoken today about individual- spoken today about individual responsibility, saying that people looked to protect themselves in very sensible ways. would you agree, mr cain, that communications about the risks of the long—term effects of covid—19 was important for the public to know so they could protect themselves from this risk? i public to know so they could protect themselves from this risk?- themselves from this risk? i think certainly once _ themselves from this risk? i think certainly once we _ themselves from this risk? i think certainly once we understood i themselves from this risk? i think| certainly once we understood what those dangers were, yes. and certainly once we understood what those dangers were, yes.- certainly once we understood what those dangers were, yes. and do you auree those dangers were, yes. and do you a . ree that those dangers were, yes. and do you agree that you _ those dangers were, yes. and do you agree that you were _ those dangers were, yes. and do you agree that you were aware _ those dangers were, yes. and do you agree that you were aware of - those dangers were, yes. and do you agree that you were aware of that i agree that you were aware of that many months before you left office? i was aware of conversations developing on covid and what it meant —— on long covid and what it meant —— on long covid and what it meant but it was not a primary focus for my work, which was slightly different and more political messaging space. this is the sort of thing that would have been led departmentally or by the nhs. yeah. but departmentally or by the nhs. yeah. ltut following — departmentally or by the nhs. yeah. but following those _ departmentally or by the nhs. yeah. but following those meetings - departmentally or by the nhs. iez:i but following those meetings with the nhs, are you aware as to whether there were any discussions in number ten about raising awareness of the long—term effects of covid—19 at the time of this announcement injuly 2020? i time of this announcement in july 2020? ., , ., , time of this announcement in july 2020? ., , ., ., , 2020? i was not but again it is something _ 2020? i was not but again it is something i— 2020? i was not but again it is something i would _ 2020? i was not but again it is something i would have i 2020? i was not but again it is i something i would have expected to be led departmentally. but something i would have expected to be led departmentally.— something i would have expected to be led departmentally. but you agree that b that be led departmentally. but you agree that by that time _ be led departmentally. but you agree that by that time you _ be led departmentally. but you agree that by that time you were _ be led departmentally. but you agree that by that time you were aware i be led departmentally. but you agree that by that time you were aware of l that by that time you were aware of the long—term effect to risks? to be the long-term effect to risks? to be honest i can't _ the long-term effect to risks? to be honest i can't remember _ the long-term effect to risks? to be honest i can't remember the - the long—term effect to risks? to be honest i can't remember the timings of when i would have been up to speed with what the long—term risks of long covid were. at speed with what the long-term risks of long covid were.— of long covid were. at the very least would — of long covid were. at the very least would you _ of long covid were. at the very least would you agree - of long covid were. at the very least would you agree you i of long covid were. at the very i least would you agree you would certainly have been aware following the announcement in october 2020? probably but again there was a huge man taking place at that point. as i say, it is not an area of focus that i particularly recall in any great detail, which i apologise for. at detail, which i apologise for. git paragraph 89, page 20 of your witness statement you said at the beginning of the covid response, vital public health messages were distributed by a mixture of department of health, department for transport or the cabinet office digital channels. did the fact that different government departments were distributing public health advice result in inconsistent messaging? it advice result in inconsistent messaging?— advice result in inconsistent messauuin? , ., messaging? it is a good question. i think there — messaging? it is a good question. i think there is _ messaging? it is a good question. i think there is a _ messaging? it is a good question. i think there is a general _ messaging? it is a good question. i think there is a general practice i think there is a general practice that a lot of government departments act as sort of communication five dems in their own right and that can sometimes make all sorts of messaging challenges, which is one of the things that we did in covid was create a central campaigning body that reported directly to number ten to try and pull together coherency within our political campaigning, so we didn't have that sort of fighting. i think it is something that is continued thankfully since i left. but the existence _ thankfully since i left. but the existence of _ thankfully since i left. but the existence of those _ thankfully since i left. but the existence of those five - thankfully since i left. but the existence of those five dems, j thankfully since i left. but the i existence of those five dems, as you put it, would you agree did have a genuine risk of inconsistent messaging? i genuine risk of inconsistent messaging?— genuine risk of inconsistent messa . in: ? g . messaging? i think we fix that articular messaging? i think we fix that particular problem. _ messaging? i think we fix that particular problem. that i messaging? i think we fix that particular problem. that was l particular problem. that was something i was acutely aware of in part of the changes i wanted to make to the government communication systems so we did that with a kind of command and control cabinet office centre but that, you know, obviously came in in the summer i think, in the summer of 2020. and think, in the summer of 2020. and what was that _ think, in the summer of 2020. .i�*ic what was that central campaigning body? it what was that central campaigning bod ? . . what was that central campaigning bod ? ., , body? it is a group within the cabinet office _ body? it is a group within the cabinet office that _ body? it is a group within the cabinet office that will i body? it is a group within the | cabinet office that will consist body? it is a group within the i cabinet office that will consist of highly trained campaigning professionals, who understand a lot of the newer media techniques. the general thesis would be that the departments themselves would have to pitch into that central body to have campaigns they wanted to do green—lighted because the government spends hundreds of millions on campaigns and 162 a year when i was there, most of which people don't notice. the metrics for measuring them a pretty poor so we just wanted to professionalise that particular area. 50 to professionalise that particular area, y., to professionalise that particular area. ., ., area. so you say through that central body _ area. so you say through that central body there _ area. so you say through that central body there were i area. so you say through that i central body there were attempts to coordinate public health messages communicated by different departments?— communicated by different| departments?- how communicated by different i departments?- how were departments? correct. how were ublic departments? correct. how were public campaigns— departments? correct. how were public campaigns on _ departments? correct. how were public campaigns on covid-19 i departments? correct. how were i public campaigns on covid-19 updated public campaigns on covid—19 updated by the government as information became available? i by the government as information became available?— became available? i think as olicies became available? i think as policies change _ became available? i think as policies change we - became available? i think as policies change we would i became available? i think as policies change we would try became available? i think as i policies change we would try to became available? i think as - policies change we would try to make those amendments into our public communications. pare those amendments into our public communications.— communications. are not sure you have answered — communications. are not sure you have answered the _ communications. are not sure you have answered the question. i communications. are not sure you have answered the question. how| communications. are not sure you i have answered the question. how were the campaigns updated?— the campaigns updated? policies, oli the campaigns updated? policies, policy changes — the campaigns updated? policies, policy changes will _ the campaigns updated? policies, policy changes will be _ the campaigns updated? policies, policy changes will be fed - the campaigns updated? policies, policy changes will be fed into i the campaigns updated? policies, policy changes will be fed into the communications team. we would then look at certain research, the best way to communicate them and then make changes to public announcements, to campaigns or whatever they were as appropriate. so who if anyone was ultimately responsible for communicating through government messaging that there was a risk of long covid? i think it would fall in between the department of health and alex aitken within the cabinet office or indeed the nhs. so there is different areas would pick up different responsibilities. i'm not sure where the full responsibility would lie with that, depends on the severity and i would assume it would be within the cabinet office. 50 i and i would assume it would be within the cabinet office. so i will read into that _ within the cabinet office. so i will read into that there _ within the cabinet office. so i will read into that there is _ within the cabinet office. so i will read into that there is a _ within the cabinet office. so i will read into that there is a danger. within the cabinet office. so i will read into that there is a danger it | read into that there is a danger it would fall between not be read by anyone. i would fall between not be read by an one. ., ., , ., anyone. i would say on the size and scale a government _ anyone. i would say on the size and scale a government that _ anyone. i would say on the size and scale a government that is indeed i scale a government that is indeed possible. scale a government that is indeed ossible. �* ., , , ., possible. and the last question i want to ask _ possible. and the last question i want to ask you, _ possible. and the last question i want to ask you, mr _ possible. and the last question i want to ask you, mr cain, i possible. and the last question i want to ask you, mr cain, is i possible. and the last question i want to ask you, mr cain, is in l possible. and the last question i i want to ask you, mr cain, is in the absence ofa clear want to ask you, mr cain, is in the absence of a clear coordinated communications plan on long covid, do you agree that number ten and the cabinet office failed to alert the public sufficiently about the long—term effects of covid—19? i can long-term effects of covid-19? i can onl reall long-term effects of covid-19? i can only really comment _ long—term effects of covid—19? i can only really comment during my own time and i think part of the problem wasjust developing the time and i think part of the problem was just developing the evidence stream. i think at the time. i think the focus was on the live issue of dealing with the immediate response during my time. i'm not sure how that subsequently changed as i departed on the pandemic itself changed in our understanding changed. changed in our understanding chanced. . , changed in our understanding chanced. ., , ., changed in our understanding chanced. . , ., ., changed. certainly would you agree then that until— changed. certainly would you agree then that until you _ changed. certainly would you agree then that until you left _ changed. certainly would you agree then that until you left in _ changed. certainly would you agree | then that until you left in november 2020 as you have said, you would agree that there was insufficient failure to alert the public about the long—term effects? failure to alert the public about the long-term effects?- failure to alert the public about the long-term effects? again, from the long-term effects? again, from the evidence _ the long-term effects? again, from the evidence that _ the long-term effects? again, from the evidence that we _ the long-term effects? again, from the evidence that we knew- the long-term effects? again, from the evidence that we knew and i the long-term effects? again, from the evidence that we knew and had | the long-term effects? again, from| the evidence that we knew and had i think we acted responsibly can't communicate what you are unaware of and i think in a lot of those early stages we weren't overly aware of the dangers but i think we did discuss them, we did talk about them. they were raised within the press conferences. it was something that, you know, those press conferences alone we are looking at 10 million people watching every single evening, huge numbers. so these were issues that were raised. all right. thank you, mr cain. thank you. mrcain, thank you. mr cain, i'm going to ask you abouta thank you. mr cain, i'm going to ask you about a couple of topics on behalf of the covid... over the topics of on by mr o'connor, so i will be... i will cut the chase if i may. paragraph 118 of your statement, you this. at this time, and you're talking about six or seven weeks into lockdown, the prime minister was becoming increasingly concerned about the impact of lockdown is on the economy and the political impact it was having on the right wing of the conservative party... the right wing of the conservative pa ., ., ., . the right wing of the conservative pa ., ., .,. “ , party... you are watching bbc news and this is party. .. you are watching bbc news and this is our— party... you are watching bbc news and this is our continued _ party... you are watching bbc news and this is our continued coverage i and this is our continued coverage of the covid—19 inquiry. apologies for some of the language you might have heard there as lawyers have been read out messages that have been read out messages that have been unedited from number ten staff. and he felt they may well be right. and he felt they may well be right. and then you add in brackets, a position that conflicted with all the evidence available in his brackets. yes?— the evidence available in his brackets. yes?- so i the evidence available in his brackets. yes? yes. sojust for brackets. yes? yes. so 'ust for clari , brackets. yes? yes. so 'ust for clarity. what i brackets. yes? yes. so 'ust for clarity, what you i brackets. yes? yes. so 'ust for clarity, what you are i brackets. yes? yes. sojust for clarity, what you are expressing there is a frustration that mr johnson's prioritisation of media views, he was prioritising that over the actual evidence, over the views of advisers such as yourself and over public opinion at that time, is that right? i over public opinion at that time, is that riuht? g . over public opinion at that time, is that riuht? ~ , , , that right? i think it is slightly more complex _ that right? i think it is slightly more complex in _ that right? i think it is slightly more complex in the - that right? i think it is slightly more complex in the sense i that right? i think it is slightly i more complex in the sense that he i think was unsure about the policy that we were taking forward. so i think it was people reinforcing some of his own concerns. you know, i think he will bleed, as i said before, been writing the sorts of leaders in the telegraph himself. this is an criticism of the telegraph which is shining a light on why they thought the issues were but i think the prime minister himself, this was part of his oscillation and concerns of policy development. oscillation and concerns of policy development-— development. yes, the point i'm t in: to development. yes, the point i'm trying to get _ development. yes, the point i'm trying to get you _ development. yes, the point i'm trying to get you to _ development. yes, the point i'm trying to get you to clarify i development. yes, the point i'm trying to get you to clarify really| trying to get you to clarify really is the point in the brackets, which you seem to need to make clear, but it conflicted with all of the evidence. so he is preferring the views of the right—wing of his party and the daily telegraph over the actual evidence and his advice. that is what you are conveying, isn't it? the second topic again has been touched upon so i will be brief and it is about diversity. and mr o'connor took you to deal with the lack of focus or consideration at all of split families and the marcus rashford issues. but you say in your statement, again, i'm not going to put it up but it is paragraph 121 d, some policy decisions slip through the cracks because of this lack of diversity. you have already said, you have already referred to middle aged and white people only in the room and that is the problem. apart from the ones you already mentioned, what other policy decisions slip through the cracks because of this lack of diversity? i through the cracks because of this lack of diversity?— lack of diversity? i think part of the problem — lack of diversity? i think part of the problem is, _ lack of diversity? i think part of the problem is, i _ lack of diversity? i think part of the problem is, i can't - lack of diversity? i think part of the problem is, i can't recall. the problem is, i can't recall specifics. my head but part of the problem isjust specifics. my head but part of the problem is just very much specifics. my head but part of the problem isjust very much having specifics. my head but part of the problem is just very much having a situation where people pass own experience isn't in the room, so if you have predominantly middle—aged white men you are going to miss out on a whole load of different areas of expertise and lived experience. again marcus rashford was oversee a huge part of that, some of the bubble sections of some things i would highlight. ok. bubble sections of some things i would highlight.— would highlight. ok, so the disproportion _ would highlight. ok, so the disproportion effects i would highlight. ok, so the disproportion effects of- would highlight. ok, so the disproportion effects of the | disproportion effects of the pandemic on ethnic minorities, that is something that slip through the cracks? i is something that slip through the cracks? g . is something that slip through the cracks? ~ ., ., , is something that slip through the cracks? ~' ., ., , ,., cracks? i think that was something that was discussed. _ cracks? i think that was something that was discussed. i _ cracks? i think that was something that was discussed. i think - cracks? i think that was something that was discussed. i think these i that was discussed. i think these issues will be discussed but are they given the weight necessary without some of the lived experience? i don't know the answer to some of that. it felt to me that sometimes we miss things or didn't give enough attention that we could have done. you know, but i genuinely don't know how much that would have impacted. don't know how much that would have im acted. ~ . don't know how much that would have imacted. ~ ., , ,, g, , impacted. what steps, if any, were taken to address _ impacted. what steps, if any, were taken to address this _ impacted. what steps, if any, were taken to address this diversity i impacted. what steps, if any, were taken to address this diversity gap, which presumably was obvious at the time? ., ., which presumably was obvious at the time? ,., ~ ., , which presumably was obvious at the time? ~ ., , ., time? so, you know, it is not unfortunately _ time? so, you know, it is not unfortunately for _ time? so, you know, it is not unfortunately for me - time? so, you know, it is not unfortunately for me to i time? so, you know, it is not unfortunately for me to pick. time? so, you know, it is not. unfortunately for me to pick the prime minister's senior team. i can only control the elements of the remit which i control and i think we had a very diverse, particularly gender diverse but diverse team within the number ten press office and they were credible individuals to work with. and they were credible individuals to work with-— and they were credible individuals to work with. bearing in mind that diversity and _ to work with. bearing in mind that diversity and the _ to work with. bearing in mind that diversity and the lack— to work with. bearing in mind that diversity and the lack of— to work with. bearing in mind that diversity and the lack of diversity l diversity and the lack of diversity you are pointed out in paragraph 121 d, did you advise the prime minister or anybody else that this was a problem that needed to be addressed? i think it was something that was frequently raised. i think particularly by many female members of number ten, who i think it really shone a light because within covid what tends to happen is there was a small core room often in the cabinet room where the individuals would be around the room now. in non—thing—mac times there will be a lot more people in that room so it would mask some of these issues. during covid, the kind of secondary caste if you work would be outside watching on zoom and what became very clear is it was predominantly women in the building who were outside watching on zouma and predominantly white, middle—aged men around the table. so i would receive messages deliver messages from my team highlighting the gender disparity and the fact that we needed to change it. so disparity and the fact that we needed to change it.- disparity and the fact that we needed to change it. so you advised about it but — needed to change it. so you advised about it but did — needed to change it. so you advised about it but did anything _ needed to change it. so you advised about it but did anything change? i about it but did anything change? that was my question was white now, nothing did change for.— nothing did change for. thank you ve much nothing did change for. thank you very much for— nothing did change for. thank you very much for your _ nothing did change for. thank you very much for your help, - nothing did change for. thank you very much for your help, mr i nothing did change for. thank you very much for your help, mr cain. | just so people understand, we will probably— just so people understand, we will probably have a short lunch because ithink— probably have a short lunch because i think we _ probably have a short lunch because i think we have overrun a little bit with mr_ i think we have overrun a little bit with mr cain. so, my lady, the next witness is dominic cummings. you are watching the covid inquiry as it completes the questioning of lee cain, he was borisjohnson's 4—mac director of communications during the pandemic. this is dominic cummings, borisjohnson's chief cummings, boris johnson's chief adviser at cummings, borisjohnson's chief adviser at the time being sworn in. i'm just an apology to reiterate that there has been some very strong language, plenty of expletives over the past couple of hours of coverage. this is as messages of those in between number ten were read out or have been read out and that may well continue, so apologies in advance. those are unedited and we don't get any warning of those. let's listen back in.— let's listen back in. dominic mckenzie — let's listen back in. dominic mckenzie cummings. i let's listen back in. dominic mckenzie cummings. mr i let's listen back in. dominic- mckenzie cummings. mr cummings, let's listen back in. dominic— mckenzie cummings. mr cummings, you have provided — mckenzie cummings. mr cummings, you have provided the _ mckenzie cummings. mr cummings, you have provided the inquiry _ mckenzie cummings. mr cummings, you have provided the inquiry with _ mckenzie cummings. mr cummings, you have provided the inquiry with a - have provided the inquiry with a lengthy witness statement dated the 12th of october. to which you have appended a declaration of truth. we take it therefore that the contents of your witness statement are true and you have also helpfully provided us with a lengthy letter dated the 11th of november, in which you included a large number of screenshots of what saps, texts, materials and so on. —— whatsapp. could we commence pleased with your career. the inquiry understands that from 2007 to 2014 you were a special adviser to michael gove mp. is that correct? . adviser to michael gove mp. is that correct?- ln — adviser to michael gove mp. is that correct? yes. in october 2015 you became a director— correct? is; in october 2015 you became a director of correct? i2; in october 2015 you became a director of the organisation vote leave which culminated of course in thejune 2016 referendum. and i think it is fair to say you were an architect in the successful leave eu. film the successful leave eu. our campaign — the successful leave eu. our campaign was _ the successful leave eu. our campaign was called - the successful leave eu. oi" campaign was called vote leave, the other campaign was called leave eu. then became adviser to the then prime minister, is that correct? fix, prime minister, is that correct? a general election was called relatively shortly thereafter. did you, as is customary, resign as an adviser once parliament had been dissolved or did you stay in that post throughout the election campaign and then continue thereafter?— campaign and then continue thereafter? i'm afraid i can't remember _ thereafter? i'm afraid i can't remember the _ thereafter? i'm afraid i can't remember the exact - thereafter? i'm afraid i can't remember the exact legal i thereafter? i'm afraid i can't - remember the exact legal status that i had between the election being called and through the election. there are complicated rules and also i had a slightly odd role in that time because i was neither in campaign headquarters nor was i full—time in number ten. i was kind of in a separate room and i did some government work during that time for example with nato international security things. i think there was a terrorist episode, some floods in that thing. i was hopping around between two types of things. fir between two types of things. 0r right. mr cummings, i'm going to ask you to remember please that while you to remember please that while you give evidence it is essential that you try to keep your voice up and you speak as slowly as possible. that way we may better understand your evidence. did you play a part in the general election campaign, culminating in the 12th of december election? , culminating in the 12th of december election?- 0r— culminating in the 12th of december election? yes. or write. culminating in the 12th of december election? yes. orwrite. i culminating in the 12th of december election? yes. or write. iwould election? yes. or write. i would like to turn _ election? yes. or write. i would like to turn pleased _ election? yes. or write. i would like to turn pleased to - election? i'es orwrite. iwould like to turn pleased to some election? ies orwrite. iwould like to turn pleased to some of the government structures, which form a large part of your witness statement and about which you express i think what may fairly be described as very trenchant views, starting with the cabinet. you say in your statement that the cabinet was largely irrelevant to policy or execution in 2020. the combination of its size, the prime minister's inability to chair it and its constant leaks and it was seen by everyone in number ten is not a place for serious discussion. you go on to describe how those working in number ten see it as another problem to manage while real discussions happen elsewhere. the inquiry material shows that there were, although this may not be reflected in the minutes, frank and constructive debate is held in cabinet as they say in diplomatic circles. and that there were important decisions made in cabinet and important matter matter is debated. is that a fair summary therefore of the role of cabinet during the coronavirus crisis? i think it depends, to some extent it depends what you mean by the word decision. formally, a lot of things are decided on cabinet obviously thatis are decided on cabinet obviously that is the formal constitutional structure. but very rarely is actually a reflection of the decision is how the limb actually being made. 50 decision is how the limb actually being made-— being made. so is it more of a reflection _ being made. so is it more of a reflection of _ being made. so is it more of a reflection of the _ being made. so is it more of a reflection of the fact _ being made. so is it more of a reflection of the fact that - reflection of the fact that important decisions started to be taken elsewhere predominantly number ten? i taken elsewhere predominantly number ten? ., �* , ., ., , ten? i wouldn't say started to be. i would say that _ ten? i wouldn't say started to be. i would say that was _ ten? i wouldn't say started to be. i would say that was a _ ten? i wouldn't say started to be. i would say that was a case - ten? i wouldn't say started to be. i would say that was a case in - ten? i wouldn't say started to be. i would say that was a case in 2019 l would say that was a case in 2019 and of course it has been a feature for many decades of this trend increasing. ii for many decades of this trend increasing-— for many decades of this trend increasing. if we may take that rocess increasing. if we may take that process aside _ increasing. if we may take that process aside lang _ increasing. if we may take that process aside lang out - increasing. if we may take that process aside lang out of - increasing. if we may take that. process aside lang out of cabinet, did you contribute to that process do you think. i did you contribute to that process do you think-— did you contribute to that process do ou think. ., ., ., ., do you think. i would say a managed like the weather. _ do you think. i would say a managed like the weather. it _ do you think. i would say a managed like the weather. it was _ do you think. i would say a managed like the weather. it was like - do you think. i would say a managed like the weather. it was like the - like the weather. it was like the constitutional crisis in 2019, the prime minister's own temperament in the cabinet, going back over many years. i actually said to the prime minister... 50 years. i actually said to the prime minister- - -— years. i actually said to the prime minister... so down, please. slow down. i suggested _ minister... so down, please. slow down. i suggested to _ minister... so down, please. slow down. i suggested to the - minister... so down, please. slow down. i suggested to the prime i down. i suggested to the prime minister both _ down. i suggested to the prime minister both in _ down. i suggested to the prime minister both in the _ down. i suggested to the prime minister both in the last - down. i suggested to the prime minister both in the last week. down. i suggested to the prime | minister both in the last week of the election campaign in 2019 and in the election campaign in 2019 and in the first week of january when we discussed the future generally that he should strongly consider a major reshuffle and radically shrinking the size of the cabinet back to where it was a hundred or so years ago because as anyone who knows who was dealt with large organisations it is impossible to have conversations with 25, 30 people around a table like that. the prime minister did not want to. due to... you called ministers... e—mails to your professional colleagues, do you think you contributed to a lack of effectiveness on the part cabinet? now, i think i was reflecting a widespread view people a sense of power about the calibre of a lot of senior people who were dealing with this crisis for a badly.— this crisis for a badly. slowdown lease, this crisis for a badly. slowdown please. mr _ this crisis for a badly. slowdown please, mr cummings. - this crisis for a badly. slowdown please, mr cummings. are - this crisis for a badly. slowdown please, mr cummings. are you | please, mr cummings. are you suggesting that your views expressed in those revolting ways were shared by others. mi; in those revolting ways were shared b others. y . . in those revolting ways were shared b others. g . . ., ., , by others. my appalling language is obviously my _ by others. my appalling language is obviously my own _ by others. my appalling language is obviously my own but _ by others. my appalling language is obviously my own but my _ by others. my appalling language is i obviously my own but myjudgment of a lot of senior people is quite widespread. a lot of senior people is quite widespread-_ a lot of senior people is quite wides - read. , . ., a lot of senior people is quite wides - read. , . . ., widespread. just a reminder we are watching live. _ widespread. just a reminder we are watching live, unedited _ widespread. just a reminder we are watching live, unedited coverage i widespread. just a reminder we arej watching live, unedited coverage of the covid inquiry. this is dominic cummings, dog borisjohnson's cummings, dog boris johnson's adviser at cummings, dog borisjohnson's adviser at the time and you can see the lawyer reading out unedited messages sent at the time and there is more repeated —— we are repeating our apology on behalf of what you can hear but it is not within our control unfortunately, what is read out there. a repeat of our apology that you are hearing some expletives and strong language. insofar as cabinet committee meetings were concerned, there were four are largely scripted, ministers were given scripts to read out, bullet points were written by officials, you had exchange them in advance and the conclusions were largely scripted in advance. is that a fair summary of cabinet committee meetings? it summary of cabinet committee meetings?— meetings? it is. obviously not alwa s meetings? it is. obviously not always and — meetings? it is. obviously not always and there _ meetings? it is. obviously not always and there are - meetings? it is. obviously not. always and there are exceptions meetings? it is. obviously not- always and there are exceptions and some people who chaired cabinet meetings who did an extremely good job. i'm not claiming that this is universal. i'm saying that it was a general feature and it was much generalfeature and it was much more often true than not. you general feature and it was much more often true than not.— often true than not. you refer in our often true than not. you refer in your statement _ often true than not. you refer in your statement to _ often true than not. you refer in your statement to cabinet - often true than not. you refer in your statement to cabinet and l your statement to cabinet and cabinet committee meetings being... meetings. iii cabinet committee meetings being... meetins. . , ., , meetings. in the sense that they were for show. _ meetings. in the sense that they were for show. as _ meetings. in the sense that they were for show. as part _ meetings. in the sense that they were for show. as part of- meetings. in the sense that they were for show. as part of the - meetings. in the sense that they i were for show. as part of the show of the constitution. unfortunately, a large part of how the system works is that ministers parade up downing street, the cameras clicked, people act like cabinet is actually deciding things for everybody behind number ten door in power knows that thatis number ten door in power knows that that is very rarely actually what is going on. usually what is happening is that senior officials have actually decided what is happening and the ministerial performances is often, usually a performance. because that changes according to historical situations and crises and sometimes cabinet even in 2019, 2020, became genuinely important. i'm just trying to give a general

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