on site, perhaps they will be the way you buy your tickets. do you think this is all a backward step? we would love to hear from you this morning, your own experiences as a rail passenger. 0ur ticket offices out of date? we will come to your calls and texts in just we will come to your calls and texts injust a moment we will come to your calls and texts in just a moment or two, we will come to your calls and texts injust a moment or two, but we will come to your calls and texts in just a moment or two, but we will start with bbc news here. police chiefs in england and wales are going to be given new powers to sack officers found guilty of misconduct. under the changes, chief constables or their deputies will lead disciplinary panels — rather than having independent hearings. more than 60 people have been killed — and at least a0 injured — in a fire at a block of flats injohannesburg. it's unclear what started the blaze at the five—story building. ben wallace has confirmed his resignation as defence secretary after four years in the post. his successor is expected to be named later this morning by rishi sunak. and members of the rmt union are set to gather outside downing street today, in a last ditch attempt to save hundreds of ticket offices across the country. a consultation ends tomorrow on plans to close up to 1,000 over the next three years. good morning, everyone. we are talking about the future of ticket offices at your local station this morning. just looking at some of the figures around this, between 2019 and 2022, during the pandemic, essentially, our habits rapidly changed when it came to buying tickets. the numbers of tickets bought from offices physically from a person behind the glass has halved, nowjust12% of ticket a person behind the glass has halved, now just 12% of ticket spot. the number of tickets booked online is up to 50%, and the remainder are from those machines that you find in stations all around the country, and pay—as—you—go cards like 0yster cards in london, and other schemes like that. so, our habits are changing, there is no doubt about that. you would say that it's fairly reasonable that the whole infrastructure around ticket selling should change to reflect that. they say, the rail delivery group, that the vast majority of tickets that you will need to buy will be available at machines at stations around the country. 500,000 people have responded to this consultation, but ultimately it will be the transport secretary, mark harper, who will make the decision. if they all say they don't like it, the transport secretary can say, well, we are going ahead with it. the rail minister huw merriman told mps at the start of the year that they want ticket office staff to come from behind the ticket office and interact with passengers and customers on the platform, where they can be of more assistance. that is what the train companies are saying. they have made these four pledges, they say they will be more staff available to do face—to—face help for customers. customers will never have to travel out of the way to get tickets, those with disability needs will be assisted, and all rail staff will be treated fairly. they say the train companies will be more engaging and interesting for them. the union say this is more about cost—cutting, and ultimatelyjobs going. that is something the train companies deny. what about you? how does this impact on your daily experience? maybe you only go on a train for occasional trips, so it is not something you have to deal with that often, and going to a ticket office is just the most convenient way to get your ticket. it might be that you are a regular commuter, and it might be that you haven't been to a ticket office in years. as i said on 5 live earlier, i now struggle go to a machine. ijust use my phone, that is convenient for me, and i have 100% recognise that that is not going to be the way everyone wants to operate. tell us what your experiences as a regular, or an occasional rail passenger. 0ur ticket offices out of date? the number to call, 08085 909693, that is our discussion this morning. you can find us on social media as well. let's talk to a couple of people who know quite a lot about this, emma fogelman, good morning. goad fogelman, good morning. good morninu. fogelman, good morning. good morning- and — fogelman, good morning. good morning. and we _ fogelman, good morning. good morning. and we have - fogelman, good morning. good morning. and we have tony - fogelman, good morning. good i morning. and we have tony miles, fogelman, good morning. good - morning. and we have tony miles, a railway journalist, _ morning. and we have tony miles, a railway journalist, and _ morning. and we have tony miles, a railway journalist, and a _ morning. and we have tony miles, a railway journalist, and a man - morning. and we have tony miles, a railway journalist, and a man who i railwayjournalist, and a man who has an in—depth knowledge on the history of the railways. how are you? public i'm fine, thank you, good to talk to you. emma, transport has been engaged against this campaign against ticket offices. what is the problem? the biggest roblem is what is the problem? the biggest problem is that _ what is the problem? the biggest problem is that disabled - what is the problem? the biggest problem is that disabled people . what is the problem? the biggest. problem is that disabled people are not able to purchase tickets in the different ways that you just mentioned. dimensions using your phone, you mentioned the machine. for disabled people, those aren't always an option stop so many disabled people struggle to get online. a large percentage are non—internet users, so that shuts out that section of the community, and ticket vending machines are not accessible. imagine if you are a wheelchair user like myself, or if you are visually impaired, you're not able to use those machines. the ticket office is really the only way that you are able to purchase a ticket and use the railway. what that you are able to purchase a ticket and use the railway. what the rail delivery — ticket and use the railway. what the rail delivery group _ ticket and use the railway. what the rail delivery group is _ ticket and use the railway. what the rail delivery group is saying - ticket and use the railway. what the rail delivery group is saying is - rail delivery group is saying is that they are going to have people on hand to will be able to assist anyone. they will be able to go up with a machine —— to a machine with them. isn't that in some ways a more personal way of doing it? think them. isn't that in some ways a more personal way of doing it?— personal way of doing it? think what is really important _ personal way of doing it? think what is really important to _ personal way of doing it? think what is really important to remember- personal way of doing it? think what is really important to remember is l is really important to remember is that not all tickets are available to be purchased by the machines are online. ' ' ' to be purchased by the machines are online. ' ' , ., , ., online. 9996 of them is what the train online. 99% of them is what the train companies _ online. 99% of them is what the train companies are _ online. 99% of them is what the train companies are saying. - online. 99% of them is what the l train companies are saying. 99%, online. 99% of them is what the - train companies are saying. 99%, the vast, vast majority. but train companies are saying. 99%, the vast, vast majority.— vast, vast ma'ority. but that 1% is a lot of vast, vast majority. but that 1% is a lot of disability _ vast, vast majority. but that 1% is a lot of disability tickets. - vast, vast majority. but that 1% is a lot of disability tickets. for - a lot of disability tickets. for example, wheelchair users get 50% of their tickets, as well as a care ticket, if that is applicable to them. those tickets are not available to be purchased. how disabled people went to purchase the appropriate ticket if that is not an option online? figs appropriate ticket if that is not an option online? $5 i appropriate ticket if that is not an option online?— option online? as i say, what the train companies _ option online? as i say, what the train companies are _ option online? as i say, what the train companies are saying - option online? as i say, what the train companies are saying is - option online? as i say, what the| train companies are saying is that there will always be someone to help you with that. but, the fact that our ticket buying habits are rapidly changing, do not think in some way of the infrastructure needs to reflect that? are you saying you don't expect any change —— accept any change at all? don't expect any change -- accept any change at all?— any change at all? ticket offices are used far _ any change at all? ticket offices are used far less _ any change at all? ticket offices are used far less than... - any change at all? ticket offices are used far less than... but - any change at all? ticket offices | are used far less than... but that it is incorrect. first of all, it is quite a significant number, so i wouldn't say it is something to be completely dismissed, but also think about the amount of times that you would go to a ticket office to find out information about upcoming trains, orask out information about upcoming trains, or ask what type of ticket you should purchase, or you find it within the station. for disabled people, that is the first port of call when they arrive at a station. but there will still be people to answer those questions at the stations. �* , , ~ stations. but where will they be? we don't want to — stations. but where will they be? we don't want to trek _ stations. but where will they be? we don't want to trek around _ stations. but where will they be? we don't want to trek around the - don't want to trek around the station trying to find a member of staff, and we already know that disabled passengers are struggling to find members of staff to provide assistance. removing them from a fixed point is going to make that so much worse. 5m? fixed point is going to make that so much worse-— much worse. stay with us, we are auoin to much worse. stay with us, we are going to hear _ much worse. stay with us, we are going to hear from _ much worse. stay with us, we are going to hear from tony - much worse. stay with us, we are going to hear from tony in - much worse. stay with us, we are going to hear from tony in just i much worse. stay with us, we are going to hear from tony in just a l going to hearfrom tony injust a moment, but we are going to break away from this discussion, because we have some news just coming away from this discussion, because we have some newsjust coming in away from this discussion, because we have some news just coming in to us about the defence secretary, ben wallace. we can speak to our chief political correspondent. what is the news? �* ~ ., political correspondent. what is the news? �* , political correspondent. what is the news? , ., ., news? ben wallace is now formally resiuned news? ben wallace is now formally resigned as — news? ben wallace is now formally resigned as defence _ news? ben wallace is now formally resigned as defence secretary i news? ben wallace is now formally| resigned as defence secretary after a really _ resigned as defence secretary after a really quite — resigned as defence secretary after a really quite lengthy— resigned as defence secretary after a really quite lengthy stint - resigned as defence secretary after a really quite lengthy stint in - resigned as defence secretary after a really quite lengthy stint in the i a really quite lengthy stint in the 'ob. a really quite lengthy stint in the job he _ a really quite lengthy stint in the job he has— a really quite lengthy stint in the job. he has been— a really quite lengthy stint in the job. he has been defence - a really quite lengthy stint in the i job. he has been defence secretary for more _ job. he has been defence secretary for more than — job. he has been defence secretary for more than four— job. he has been defence secretary for more than four years _ job. he has been defence secretary for more than four years at - job. he has been defence secretary for more than four years at a - job. he has been defence secretary for more than four years at a time i for more than four years at a time of not _ for more than four years at a time of notiusi— for more than four years at a time of notjust political— for more than four years at a time of not just political to _ for more than four years at a time of not just political to for - for more than four years at a time of not just political to for the i of not just political to for the conservative _ of not just political to for the conservative party, - of not just political to for the conservative party, but- of not just political to for the conservative party, but in. of not just political to for the i conservative party, but in europe. he announced _ conservative party, but in europe. he announced he _ conservative party, but in europe. he announced he would _ conservative party, but in europe. he announced he would be - conservative party, but in europe. he announced he would be going. conservative party, but in europe. . he announced he would be going at the next _ he announced he would be going at the next reshuffle. _ he announced he would be going at the next reshuffle. that— he announced he would be going at the next reshuffle. that is- the next reshuffle. that is happening _ the next reshuffle. that is happening now. _ the next reshuffle. that is happening now. we - the next reshuffle. that is happening now. we don'tl the next reshuffle. that is- happening now. we don't have confirmation— happening now. we don't have confirmation of— happening now. we don't have confirmation of who _ happening now. we don't have confirmation of who the - happening now. we don't have confirmation of who the new. happening now. we don't have - confirmation of who the new defence secretary _ confirmation of who the new defence secretary will — confirmation of who the new defence secretary will be, _ confirmation of who the new defence secretary will be, but _ confirmation of who the new defence secretary will be, but grant - confirmation of who the new defence secretary will be, but grant shapps, i secretary will be, but grant shapps, who is— secretary will be, but grant shapps, who is currently— secretary will be, but grant shapps, who is currently the _ secretary will be, but grant shapps, who is currently the energy - who is currently the energy secretary. _ who is currently the energy secretary, has _ who is currently the energy secretary, has just - who is currently the energy secretary, has just gone i who is currently the energy secretary, hasjust gone in| who is currently the energy i secretary, hasjust gone in to 10 downing — secretary, hasjust gone in to 10 downing street. _ secretary, hasjust gone in to 10 downing street. it— secretary, hasjust gone in to 10 downing street. it is— secretary, hasjust gone in to 10 downing street. it is looking i secretary, has just gone in to 10| downing street. it is looking very possible. — downing street. it is looking very possible. perhaps _ downing street. it is looking very possible, perhaps even _ downing street. it is looking very possible, perhaps even likely, i downing street. it is looking very. possible, perhaps even likely, that he will _ possible, perhaps even likely, that he will get — possible, perhaps even likely, that he will get the _ possible, perhaps even likely, that he will get the job. _ possible, perhaps even likely, that he will get the job. [5 _ possible, perhaps even likely, that he will get the job. [5 a— possible, perhaps even likely, that he will get the job.— he will get the 'ob. is a former rransport — he will get the job. is a former transport secretary, _ he will get the job. is a former transport secretary, so - he will get the job. is a former transport secretary, so he i he will get the job. is a former transport secretary, so he will he will get the job. is a former i transport secretary, so he will have interest in what we were talking about today. red ben wallace was regarded as a pretty popular member of the conservative party, both inside and outside westminster? yes. inside and outside westminster? yes, actuall , inside and outside westminster? yes, actually. both — inside and outside westminster? yes, actually. both of— inside and outside westminster? yes, actually, both of the _ inside and outside westminster? yes, actually, both of the last conservative _ actually, both of the last conservative leadership. actually, both of the last - conservative leadership elections, which _ conservative leadership elections, which were — conservative leadership elections, which were in— conservative leadership elections, which were in the _ conservative leadership elections, which were in the last _ conservative leadership elections, which were in the last year, - which were in the last year, somehow, _ which were in the last year, somehow, he _ which were in the last year, somehow, he was - which were in the last year, somehow, he was a - which were in the last year, i somehow, he was a favourite. he declined — somehow, he was a favourite. he declined to— somehow, he was a favourite. he declined to run— somehow, he was a favourite. he declined to run both _ somehow, he was a favourite. he declined to run both times. - somehow, he was a favourite. he declined to run both times. first. declined to run both times. first time _ declined to run both times. first time round — declined to run both times. first time round he _ declined to run both times. first time round he backed _ declined to run both times. first time round he backed liz- declined to run both times. first time round he backed liz truss, | declined to run both times. first i time round he backed liz truss, and second _ time round he backed liz truss, and second time — time round he backed liz truss, and second time round _ time round he backed liz truss, and second time round he _ time round he backed liz truss, and second time round he actually- time round he backed liz truss, and. second time round he actually backed boris johnson — second time round he actually backed borisjohnson i— second time round he actually backed borisjohnson. i think— second time round he actually backed boris johnson. i think that _ second time round he actually backed boris johnson. i think that does - boris johnson. i think that does underscore _ boris johnson. i think that does underscore that _ boris johnson. i think that does underscore that ben _ boris johnson. i think that does underscore that ben wallace i boris johnson. i think that does. underscore that ben wallace was boris johnson. i think that does i underscore that ben wallace was not a naturat— underscore that ben wallace was not a natural ally— underscore that ben wallace was not a natural ally of— underscore that ben wallace was not a natural ally of rishi _ underscore that ben wallace was not a natural ally of rishi sunak. - underscore that ben wallace was not a natural ally of rishi sunak. it i a natural ally of rishi sunak. it wasn't — a natural ally of rishi sunak. it wasn't necessarily— a natural ally of rishi sunak. it wasn't necessarily a _ a natural ally of rishi sunak. it wasn't necessarily a given i a natural ally of rishi sunak. it wasn't necessarily a given that| a natural ally of rishi sunak. it i wasn't necessarily a given that he wasn't necessarily a given that he was stay— wasn't necessarily a given that he was stay on — wasn't necessarily a given that he was stay on as _ wasn't necessarily a given that he was stay on as defence _ wasn't necessarily a given that he| was stay on as defence secretary. but there _ was stay on as defence secretary. but there is — was stay on as defence secretary. but there is the _ was stay on as defence secretary. but there is the exchange - was stay on as defence secretary. but there is the exchange of i was stay on as defence secretary. i but there is the exchange of formal letters _ but there is the exchange of formal letters that — but there is the exchange of formal letters that you _ but there is the exchange of formal letters that you get _ but there is the exchange of formal letters that you get with _ but there is the exchange of formal letters that you get with outgoing l letters that you get with outgoing prime _ letters that you get with outgoing prime minister— letters that you get with outgoing prime minister is, _ letters that you get with outgoing prime minister is, and _ letters that you get with outgoing prime minister is, and i— letters that you get with outgoing prime minister is, and i have- letters that you get with outgoing prime minister is, and i have to l letters that you get with outgoing l prime minister is, and i have to say -- outgoing — prime minister is, and i have to say —— outgoing ministers— prime minister is, and i have to say —— outgoing ministers and - prime minister is, and i have to say —— outgoing ministers and the i prime minister is, and i have to sayl —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister. _ —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister. and — —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister. and i— —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister, and i have— —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister, and i have to— —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister, and i have to say- —— outgoing ministers and the prime minister, and i have to say they- minister, and i have to say they were _ minister, and i have to say they were quite _ minister, and i have to say they were quite cordial. _ minister, and i have to say they were quite cordial. soon- minister, and i have to say they were quite cordial. soon act- were quite cordial. soon act lavished _ were quite cordial. soon act lavished praise _ were quite cordial. soon act lavished praise on - were quite cordial. soon act lavished praise on ben- were quite cordial. soon act. lavished praise on ben wallace were quite cordial. soon act- lavished praise on ben wallace for his work— lavished praise on ben wallace for his work as — lavished praise on ben wallace for his work as defence _ lavished praise on ben wallace for his work as defence secretary. ii his work as defence secretary. i think— his work as defence secretary. i think that — his work as defence secretary. i think that underscores - his work as defence secretary. i think that underscores what i his work as defence secretary. i. think that underscores what you're saying. _ think that underscores what you're saying. that — think that underscores what you're saying. that ben— think that underscores what you're saying, that ben wallace - think that underscores what you're saying, that ben wallace is- think that underscores what you're saying, that ben wallace is seen. think that underscores what you're i saying, that ben wallace is seen as being _ saying, that ben wallace is seen as being a _ saying, that ben wallace is seen as heing a perfect— saying, that ben wallace is seen as being a perfect fit _ saying, that ben wallace is seen as being a perfect fit for— saying, that ben wallace is seen as being a perfect fit for this - saying, that ben wallace is seen as being a perfect fit for this job - saying, that ben wallace is seen as being a perfect fit for this job at i being a perfect fit for this job at a significant _ being a perfect fit for this job at a significant time. _ being a perfect fit for this job at a significant time. he _ being a perfect fit for this job at a significant time. he is - being a perfect fit for this job at a significant time. he is a - being a perfect fit for this job at. a significant time. he is a former soldier. — a significant time. he is a former soldier. he — a significant time. he is a former soldier. he is— a significant time. he is a former soldier, he is very— a significant time. he is a former soldier, he is very clear- a significant time. he is a former soldier, he is very clear from i a significant time. he is a former soldier, he is very clear from thej soldier, he is very clear from the start— soldier, he is very clear from the start that — soldier, he is very clear from the start that the _ soldier, he is very clear from the start that the west _ soldier, he is very clear from the start that the west must - soldier, he is very clear from the start that the west must stand i start that the west must stand behind — start that the west must stand behind ukraine, _ start that the west must stand behind ukraine, and— start that the west must stand behind ukraine, and if- start that the west must stand behind ukraine, and if rishi i start that the west must stand i behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak was in— behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak was inan— behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak was in an ideal— behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak was in an ideal world, _ behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak was in an ideal world, he - behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak was in an ideal world, he would i behind ukraine, and if rishi sunak| was in an ideal world, he would be losing _ was in an ideal world, he would be losing him~ — was in an idealworld, he would be losing him-— was in an idealworld, he would be losin: him. . ~' , . losing him. thank you very much. if we aet losing him. thank you very much. if we get any — losing him. thank you very much. if we get any updates _ losing him. thank you very much. if we get any updates on _ losing him. thank you very much. if we get any updates on who - losing him. thank you very much. if we get any updates on who will i we get any updates on who will replace ben wallace as defence secretary, we will bring you here on bbc news and on 5 live as well. thank you for being with us. let's get back to our discussion, our ticket offices out of date? loads of discussion coming in already. i can see lots of people in defence of their own ticket office and why they are so important, but let's try and understand why train companies want to make this move. tony miles, we've seen so many changes in the real industry, but in particular that has been accelerated over the pandemic. —— the rail industry. our buying habits are part of that, aren't they? habits are part of that, aren't the ? , . , , habits are part of that, aren't the ? , ., , , , ., , they? they are. definitely people are bu in: they? they are. definitely people are buying the — they? they are. definitely people are buying the tickets _ they? they are. definitely people are buying the tickets in - they? they are. definitely people are buying the tickets in a - are buying the tickets in a different way, and they are not just using _ different way, and they are not just using the _ different way, and they are not just using the ticket office any more. i think— using the ticket office any more. i think 12%— using the ticket office any more. i think 12% is— using the ticket office any more. i think 12% is properly a number that has been _ think 12% is properly a number that has been created by doing the right mats to _ has been created by doing the right mats to get to the number that feels right. _ mats to get to the number that feels right. so— mats to get to the number that feels right. so we — mats to get to the number that feels right, so we have to take that with a bit _ right, so we have to take that with a bit of— right, so we have to take that with a bit of scepticism. do right, so we have to take that with a bit of scepticism.— a bit of scepticism. do think it is less or more _ a bit of scepticism. do think it is less or more than _ a bit of scepticism. do think it is less or more than 12%? - a bit of scepticism. do think it is less or more than 12%? i - a bit of scepticism. do think it is less or more than 12%? i think. less or more than 12%? i think robabl less or more than 12%? i think probably more _ less or more than 12%? i think probably more people - less or more than 12%? i think probably more people are i less or more than 12%? i think. probably more people are using less or more than 12%? i think- probably more people are using the ticket _ probably more people are using the ticket office in some way, and it might— ticket office in some way, and it might be — ticket office in some way, and it might be that the ticket office staff— might be that the ticket office staff are advising them on how to use machines, but there is a view, the number— use machines, but there is a view, the number of people saying we have internal _ the number of people saying we have internal figures that show our ticket — internal figures that show our ticket office has been busier... i suppose — ticket office has been busier... i surlpose if— ticket office has been busier... i suppose if you add up every ticket office. _ suppose if you add up every ticket office, including the ones that really— office, including the ones that really don't do everything, then you -et really don't do everything, then you get to— really don't do everything, then you get to that — really don't do everything, then you get to that figure. it is properly not worth— get to that figure. it is properly not worth getting too bogged down with the _ not worth getting too bogged down with the numbers. it is more that there _ with the numbers. it is more that there is— with the numbers. it is more that there is a — with the numbers. it is more that there is a crisis in the railways, because — there is a crisis in the railways, because the government has been funding _ because the government has been funding them since about one month into funding them since about one month ihto covid~ _ funding them since about one month into covid. it has suddenly discovered how expensive the railways — discovered how expensive the railways are to have, and it has an opinion— railways are to have, and it has an opinion which differs from our european _ opinion which differs from our european neighbours, in that it doesn't — european neighbours, in that it doesn't feel that the taxpayer should — doesn't feel that the taxpayer should do very much to support the railways _ should do very much to support the railways being there, and so wants to take _ railways being there, and so wants to take money out of the cost of running — to take money out of the cost of running railways. this was seen as a very quick— running railways. this was seen as a very quick fix — running railways. this was seen as a very quick fix at saving money. an eas very quick fix at saving money. easy target? very quick fix at saving money. in easy target? is that the government driving this, the train companies, or both? love the train companies are obliged to do it by or both? love the train companies are obliged to do i— are obliged to do it by the government _ are obliged to do it by the government in _ are obliged to do it by the government in their - are obliged to do it by the - government in their contract. if you want _ government in their contract. if you want to— government in their contract. if you want to read — government in their contract. if you want to read the clauses, there is one that — want to read the clauses, there is one that says if we want to change the way _ one that says if we want to change the way you work, you must comply. the companies are doing this because the government has instructed them to do this _ the government has instructed them to do this. for those who are watching _ to do this. for those who are watching on telly, who are noticing that i_ watching on telly, who are noticing that t have — watching on telly, who are noticing that i have a green screen which is literally— that i have a green screen which is literally a — that i have a green screen which is literally a green screen, that is what _ literally a green screen, that is what happens when you are so told suddenly— what happens when you are so told suddenly how you have to do your 'ob! suddenly how you have to do your job! the _ suddenly how you have to do your job! the companies have been told there _ job! the companies have been told there is— job! the companies have been told there is a _ job! the companies have been told there is a due due process for this. maybe _ there is a due due process for this. maybe we — there is a due due process for this. maybe we should have given you due process and put it out to public consultation! what is interesting about this is that, i'm what is interesting about this is that. i'm a _ what is interesting about this is that, i'm a right— what is interesting about this is that, i'm a right in _ what is interesting about this is that, i'm a right in saying - what is interesting about this is that, i'm a right in saying that l what is interesting about this is l that, i'm a right in saying that the government actually pays for this, the taxpayer funds this, so when people say this is about the train company is cutting costs, it is actually about the government cutting its own costs miss is that correct? . cutting its own costs miss is that correct? , ._ ., ._ , correct? yes. the way the railways are funded — correct? yes. the way the railways are funded at _ correct? yes. the way the railways are funded at the _ correct? yes. the way the railways are funded at the moment, - correct? yes. the way the railways are funded at the moment, it - correct? yes. the way the railways| are funded at the moment, it came correct? yes. the way the railways i are funded at the moment, it came in at covid, _ are funded at the moment, it came in at covid, and — are funded at the moment, it came in at covid, and it is collect all the money, — at covid, and it is collect all the money, give it to the government, and the _ money, give it to the government, and the government gives it back to run services — and the government gives it back to run services around the railways. the government is aware of the differences of the money that is coming — differences of the money that is coming in — differences of the money that is coming in from ticket sales and the cost of— coming in from ticket sales and the cost of running the railways, and it says it _ cost of running the railways, and it says it wants that gap to be less. we want — says it wants that gap to be less. we want to — says it wants that gap to be less. we want to take taxpayer funding dow“, _ we want to take taxpayer funding down, and what can you do quickly that will— down, and what can you do quickly that will do— down, and what can you do quickly that will do it? we have an idea, ctose _ that will do it? we have an idea, ctose ticket _ that will do it? we have an idea, close ticket offices, because that will save — close ticket offices, because that will save an amount of money very quickly. _ will save an amount of money very quickly. it— will save an amount of money very quickly, it believes.— will save an amount of money very quickly, it believes. they must have known there — quickly, it believes. they must have known there will _ quickly, it believes. they must have known there will be _ quickly, it believes. they must have known there will be a _ quickly, it believes. they must have known there will be a backlash, - known there will be a backlash, though. we are going to hear about people who have been affected by this. i know when we speak to the unions later, they will talk about the big profits that the train companies are making, they will talk about fat cat salaries. what's the truth of it? what is the financial state of our train companies at the moment? . . ' state of our train companies at the moment? . , , ., , ., moment? the fat stuff was gone, if it was never — moment? the fat stuff was gone, if it was never there _ moment? the fat stuff was gone, if it was never there in _ moment? the fat stuff was gone, if it was never there in the _ moment? the fat stuff was gone, if it was never there in the first - it was never there in the first place — it was never there in the first place the _ it was never there in the first place. the government pays the companies to run the services, and allows— companies to run the services, and allows them — companies to run the services, and allows them a small profit, possibly between _ allows them a small profit, possibly between around i% or 2%. it is very complicated, because there are bonuses — complicated, because there are bonuses. it is the kind of money you would _ bonuses. it is the kind of money you would not _ bonuses. it is the kind of money you would not run a supermarket for, if tesco _ would not run a supermarket for, if tesco or _ would not run a supermarket for, if tesco or sainsbury's ran with the profit _ tesco or sainsbury's ran with the profit margins the train companies make, _ profit margins the train companies make, they would close. they are paid a _ make, they would close. they are paid a small amount to run the service, — paid a small amount to run the service, it _ paid a small amount to run the service, it is not a big profit makinq _ service, it is not a big profit making thing at the moment. and can i ask briefly. — making thing at the moment. and can i ask briefly, what _ making thing at the moment. and can i ask briefly, what is _ making thing at the moment. and can i ask briefly, what is your _ making thing at the moment. and can i ask briefly, what is your own - i ask briefly, what is your own emotional response to the closure of ticket offices? i emotional response to the closure of ticket offices?— ticket offices? i think there is time to move _ ticket offices? i think there is time to move on, _ ticket offices? i think there is time to move on, and - ticket offices? i think there is time to move on, and people| ticket offices? i think there is - time to move on, and people sitting behind _ time to move on, and people sitting behind windows probably isn't the way forward, but the alternatives are not— way forward, but the alternatives are not there properly. as your previous— are not there properly. as your previous collar said, the support for people — previous collar said, the support for people with extra needs has not been thought through properly stop blind people have been told they will be _ blind people have been told they will be taught how to use touch—screen machines. work that one out. touch—screen machines. work that one out the _ touch—screen machines. work that one out the train— touch—screen machines. work that one out. the train company saying there will be _ out. the train company saying there will be staff— out. the train company saying there will be staff there to help, there won't _ will be staff there to help, there won't always be staff there to help, they will— won't always be staff there to help, they will be cut, their hours will be cut, — they will be cut, their hours will be cut, and _ they will be cut, their hours will be cut, and if they visit it certain hours _ be cut, and if they visit it certain hours of— be cut, and if they visit it certain hours of the _ be cut, and if they visit it certain hours of the day does not coincide with your— hours of the day does not coincide with your visit any wheelchair or because — with your visit any wheelchair or because you can't see your way around _ because you can't see your way around the — because you can't see your way around the station, then there won't be anyone _ around the station, then there won't be anyone there to help you. there is a significant plan to reduce the hours _ is a significant plan to reduce the hours staff— is a significant plan to reduce the hours staff will be on stations. thank — hours staff will be on stations. thank you _ hours staff will be on stations. thank you very much. as i mentioned earlier, the train companies themselves are made for pledges, and they say that those with accessibility needs will always be supported. let's go to some of your texts first. this one here, my mum is in her 805, she relies on the ticket office, she doesn't do all mine at all, she struggles with technology like phones and ticket machines. yesterday she travelled using delay repay vouchers, which she couldn't have spent and he ticket machine. last night, my friend and i were going from derby to chesterfield, at the ticket office we were told the cheapest ticket was £6 70 p. the only ticket at the machines was £13.20 at the machine. a relative was fine for a travelling without a ticket until she was told should have looked online inside. we have nicola and neville. nicola, where are you this morning? neville. nicola, where are you this mornin: ? �* . . neville. nicola, where are you this mornin: ? �* , , , .,, morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop aood morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop good morning — morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop good morning to _ morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop good morning to you, _ morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop good morning to you, rachel. - morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop good morning to you, rachel. i- morning? i'm up in huddersfield stop good morning to you, rachel. ijust l good morning to you, rachel. ijust wanted to make the point that i completely empathise with the whole system of going from humans dealing with tickets to machines, but i wanted to compare it a bit to banks. banks on the high street are closing in huge numbers, and my 92—year—old dad, and even i'vejust had to learn that i have to do everything online. i think it isjust that i have to do everything online. i think it is just the way that we are going no, and there is always going to be teething problems, but people have had to learn how to manage to do all their banking not face—to—face, and also i would like to say, in huddersfield station, i moved up your only two years ago, and i didn't have a car. as i said i'm not going to have a car, i will use public transport. it has been an absolute nightmare. using the trains, i'm so disappointed. there are staff everywhere, that the trains don't function. that are staff everywhere, that the trains don't function.- trains don't function. that is a whole other _ trains don't function. that is a whole other conversation, - trains don't function. that is a | whole other conversation, isn't trains don't function. that is a - whole other conversation, isn't it? but it does play into this, because if you are facing a situation where there are delays and cancellations, and you're trying to book tickets, and you're trying to book tickets, and you're trying to book tickets, and you're not sure what ticket will be appropriate for you if the whole system is disrupted, it does play into this discussion. stay there, nicola. let's hearfrom neville. neville, you are in plymouth. do you get nicola's point that we have to get nicola's point that we have to get with where everything is going on this? everything is moving online, it is inevitable? absolutely. i think that is part of the experience that we have all had. people _ the experience that we have all had. people thought that low—cost airlines — people thought that low—cost airlines would never, forgive the pun. _ airlines would never, forgive the pun. take — airlines would never, forgive the pun, take off, because people wouldn't — pun, take off, because people wouldn't be able to book the tickets or elderly— wouldn't be able to book the tickets or elderly people wouldn't travel. but in _ or elderly people wouldn't travel. but in fact— or elderly people wouldn't travel. but in fact they do. easyjet and ryanair— but in fact they do. easyjet and ryanair are often full of grandparents going to see the grandkids, and they sort that out. the thing — grandkids, and they sort that out. the thing i— grandkids, and they sort that out. the thing i think is being missed is that if— the thing i think is being missed is that if we — the thing i think is being missed is that if we just use the metric of tickets— that if we just use the metric of tickets sold, that is not the rail value _ tickets sold, that is not the rail value -- — tickets sold, that is not the rail value -- the _ tickets sold, that is not the rail value —— the real value of ticket offices — value —— the real value of ticket offices~ it— value —— the real value of ticket offices~ it is— value —— the real value of ticket offices. it is about whether or not you can _ offices. it is about whether or not you can travel. we have off—peak, super _ you can travel. we have off—peak, super off— peak travel you can travel. we have off—peak, super off—peak travel times, and if our train _ super off—peak travel times, and if our train is — super off—peak travel times, and if our train is cancelled, you find yourself— our train is cancelled, you find yourself in _ our train is cancelled, you find yourself in that next category, can yourself in that next category, can you actually travel? you can't necessarily find the staff on the proposal — necessarily find the staff on the proposal if they are on the platform, because there are ticket barriers _ platform, because there are ticket barriers in — platform, because there are ticket barriers in the way. so, if you can't — barriers in the way. so, if you can't get _ barriers in the way. so, if you can't get access to the staff, because _ can't get access to the staff, because you are the wrong side of the barrier, — because you are the wrong side of the barrier, how does that get sorted — the barrier, how does that get sorted out? how do you get the information? knowing you can go up to the _ information? knowing you can go up to the window and find somebody in a specific— to the window and find somebody in a specific place to ascertain whether you are _ specific place to ascertain whether you are able to travel, or what's happening — you are able to travel, or what's happening with the cancellations, that is— happening with the cancellations, that is a _ happening with the cancellations, that is a heck of a big thing. but also, _ that is a heck of a big thing. but also, all— that is a heck of a big thing. but also, all of— that is a heck of a big thing. but also, all of this should have been picked _ also, all of this should have been picked up — also, all of this should have been picked up with equality impact assessments. they should have been conducting _ assessments. they should have been conducting those assessments about how these _ conducting those assessments about how these proposals were going to impact _ how these proposals were going to impact elderly and disabled people, and i haven't seen any mention of those _ and i haven't seen any mention of those anywhere as yet. let and i haven't seen any mention of those anywhere as yet.— and i haven't seen any mention of those anywhere as yet. let me bring pat in southampton _ those anywhere as yet. let me bring pat in southampton into _ those anywhere as yet. let me bring pat in southampton into the - pat in southampton into the discussion. pat, meet neville and nicola. you are all from big cities. i am wondering if the experience of big train stations will be much biggerfrom those in big train stations will be much bigger from those in smaller and rural locations, but what is it like in southampton?— rural locations, but what is it like in southampton? rural locations, but what is it like in southamton? �* ., ., in southampton? although i am in the ostal in southampton? although i am in the postal district — in southampton? although i am in the postal district in _ in southampton? although i am in the postal district in southampton, - in southampton? although i am in the postal district in southampton, that i postal district in southampton, that is not _ postal district in southampton, that is not my— postal district in southampton, that is not my nearest— postal district in southampton, that is not my nearest railway— postal district in southampton, that is not my nearest railway station. . postal district in southampton, that is not my nearest railway station. ii is not my nearest railway station. i use winchester, _ is not my nearest railway station. i use winchester, or— is not my nearest railway station. i use winchester, or even _ is not my nearest railway station. i use winchester, or even parkway. use winchester, or even parkway easily~ _ use winchester, or even parkway easil . �* use winchester, or even parkway easil . . ., use winchester, or even parkway easil . �* ., ., use winchester, or even parkway easil . . ., ., ., easily. and how do you find that there? at _ easily. and how do you find that there? at the _ easily. and how do you find that there? at the moment, - easily. and how do you find that there? at the moment, i- easily. and how do you find that there? at the moment, i can i easily. and how do you find that| there? at the moment, i can use easily. and how do you find that - there? at the moment, i can use the railway because _ there? at the moment, i can use the railway because i _ there? at the moment, i can use the railway because i can _ there? at the moment, i can use the railway because i can go _ there? at the moment, i can use the railway because i can go and - there? at the moment, i can use the railway because i can go and buy - there? at the moment, i can use the railway because i can go and buy a i railway because i can go and buy a ticket, _ railway because i can go and buy a ticket, but — railway because i can go and buy a ticket, but i — railway because i can go and buy a ticket, but i did — railway because i can go and buy a ticket, but i did try— railway because i can go and buy a ticket, but i did try buying - railway because i can go and buy a ticket, but i did try buying a - ticket, but i did try buying a ticket — ticket, but i did try buying a ticket online _ ticket, but i did try buying a ticket online last _ ticket, but i did try buying a ticket online last year, - ticket, but i did try buying a ticket online last year, and i ticket, but i did try buying al ticket online last year, and it ticket, but i did try buying a - ticket online last year, and it was a disaster— ticket online last year, and it was a disaster for— ticket online last year, and it was a disaster for me. _ ticket online last year, and it was a disaster for me. i— ticket online last year, and it was a disaster for me. i ended - ticket online last year, and it was a disaster for me. i ended up - ticket online last year, and it was i a disaster for me. i ended up buying a disaster for me. i ended up buying a more _ a disaster for me. i ended up buying a more expensive _ a disaster for me. i ended up buying a more expensive ticket _ a disaster for me. i ended up buying a more expensive ticket than - a disaster for me. i ended up buying a more expensive ticket than i - a more expensive ticket than i needed — a more expensive ticket than i needed to— a more expensive ticket than i needed to i_ a more expensive ticket than i needed to ijust _ a more expensive ticket than i needed to ijust couldn't - a more expensive ticket than i needed to ijust couldn't facel a more expensive ticket than i - needed to ijust couldn't face going into the _ needed to ijust couldn't face going into the website _ needed to ijust couldn't face going into the website again. _ needed to ijust couldn't face going into the website again. it _ needed to ijust couldn't face going into the website again. it was - needed to ijust couldn't face going into the website again. it was so i into the website again. it was so difficult — into the website again. it was so difficult for — into the website again. it was so difficult for me _ into the website again. it was so difficult for me to _ into the website again. it was so difficult for me to navigate - into the website again. it was so difficult for me to navigate that| difficult for me to navigate that online — difficult for me to navigate that online website, _ difficult for me to navigate that online website, and _ difficult for me to navigate that online website, and i— difficult for me to navigate that online website, and i know- difficult for me to navigate thatj online website, and i know that difficult for me to navigate that. online website, and i know that i ended _ online website, and i know that i ended up— online website, and i know that i ended up buying _ online website, and i know that i ended up buying a— online website, and i know that i ended up buying a ticket- online website, and i know that i ended up buying a ticket that - online website, and i know that i. ended up buying a ticket that would have allowed — ended up buying a ticket that would have allowed me _ ended up buying a ticket that would have allowed me to _ ended up buying a ticket that would have allowed me to travel- ended up buying a ticket that would have allowed me to travel to - have allowed me to travel to different _ have allowed me to travel to different stations _ have allowed me to travel to different stations in - have allowed me to travel to different stations in london, j have allowed me to travel to - different stations in london, where as i different stations in london, where as i only— different stations in london, where as i only needed _ different stations in london, where as i only needed to— different stations in london, where as i only needed to waterloo. - different stations in london, where as i only needed to waterloo. 1. different stations in london, where as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't— as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear— as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear it. _ as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear it. i— as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear it. i am, _ as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear it. i am, for- as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear it. i am, for my- as i only needed to waterloo. ijust couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, i couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, i'm 76. _ couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, l'm 76. i'm— couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, i'm 76, i'm fairly— couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, i'm 76, i'm fairly used _ couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, i'm 76, i'm fairly used to- couldn't bear it. i am, for my age, i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being - i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online— i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online quite— i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online quite a— i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online quite a lot, _ i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online quite a lot, i— i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online quite a lot, i have - i'm 76, i'm fairly used to being online quite a lot, i have a - online quite a lot, i have a smartphone. _ online quite a lot, i have a smartphone, but - online quite a lot, i have a smartphone, but if- online quite a lot, i have a smartphone, but if i - online quite a lot, i have a smartphone, but if i am i online quite a lot, i have a - smartphone, but if i am confronted with a _ smartphone, but if i am confronted with a website _ smartphone, but if i am confronted with a website that _ smartphone, but if i am confronted with a website that is _ smartphone, but if i am confronted with a website that is so _ with a website that is so complicated _ with a website that is so complicated and - with a website that is so complicated and new . with a website that is so complicated and new to| with a website that is so - complicated and new to me, ijust can't _ complicated and new to me, ijust can't handle — complicated and new to me, ijust can't handle it. _ complicated and new to me, ijust can't handle it. i— complicated and new to me, ijust can't handle it. i need _ complicated and new to me, ijust can't handle it. i need help, - complicated and new to me, ijust can't handle it. i need help, i- complicated and new to me, ijust| can't handle it. i need help, i need to be _ can't handle it. i need help, i need to be able — can't handle it. i need help, i need to be able to — can't handle it. i need help, i need to be able to ask— can't handle it. i need help, i need to be able to ask somebody - can't handle it. i need help, i need to be able to ask somebody to - can't handle it. i need help, i need to be able to ask somebody to get| to be able to ask somebody to get the right— to be able to ask somebody to get the right ticket _ to be able to ask somebody to get the right ticket i— to be able to ask somebody to get the right ticket i need. _ to be able to ask somebody to get the right ticket i need.— the right ticket i need. nicola, lease the right ticket i need. nicola, please come _ the right ticket i need. nicola, please come in. _ the right ticket i need. nicola, please come in. i'm _ the right ticket i need. nicola, please come in. i'm really - the right ticket i need. nicola, please come in. i'm really not| please come in. i'm really not computer _ please come in. i'm really not computer illiterate _ please come in. i'm really not computer illiterate at - please come in. i'm really not computer illiterate at all, - please come in. i'm really not computer illiterate at all, my| please come in. i'm really not. computer illiterate at all, my son would laugh at me, but i literally have never ever had any problem, i've just have never ever had any problem, i'vejust gone on have never ever had any problem, i've just gone on to a website, i can't name it properly, and i do say i want to go to milton keynes, it is so easy. ifind my i want to go to milton keynes, it is so easy. i find my banking i want to go to milton keynes, it is so easy. ifind my banking online more difficult. i don't know whether thatis more difficult. i don't know whether that is just an unfortunate experience that you have had, but i really do find getting a ticket online for a train a lot easier than a lot of other transactions i have to do for other things. i a lot of other transactions i have to do for other things.— a lot of other transactions i have to do for other things. i don't know about that- — to do for other things. i don't know about that- l— to do for other things. i don't know about that. i have _ to do for other things. i don't know about that. i have to _ to do for other things. i don't know about that. i have to bank- to do for other things. i don't know about that. i have to bank online, | about that. i have to bank online, i've about that. i have to bank online, we been— about that. i have to bank online, i've been banking _ about that. i have to bank online, i've been banking online - about that. i have to bank online, i've been banking online for- about that. i have to bank online, i've been banking online for a - about that. i have to bank online, i i've been banking online for a long time, _ i've been banking online for a long time, because— i've been banking online for a long time, because i— i've been banking online for a long time, because i don't— i've been banking online for a long time, because i don't have - i've been banking online for a long time, because i don't have any- time, because i don't have any branches, _ time, because i don't have any branches, because _ time, because i don't have any branches, because i— time, because i don't have any branches, because i live - time, because i don't have any branches, because i live out. time, because i don't have any| branches, because i live out on time, because i don't have any- branches, because i live out on the sticks— branches, because i live out on the sticks anyway~ _ branches, because i live out on the sticks anyway~ i_ branches, because i live out on the sticks anyway. i do _ branches, because i live out on the sticks anyway. i do a _ branches, because i live out on the sticks anyway. i do a lot _ branches, because i live out on the sticks anyway. i do a lot of- sticks anyway. i do a lot of shopping _ sticks anyway. i do a lot of shopping online _ sticks anyway. i do a lot of shopping online as - sticks anyway. i do a lot of shopping online as well. . sticks anyway. i do a lot of shopping online as well. ii sticks anyway. i do a lot of- shopping online as well. i think i am fairly— shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k _ shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k at _ shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k at it, _ shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k at it, but— shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k at it, but i- shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k at it, but i can - shopping online as well. i think i am fairly 0k at it, but i can tell. am fairly 0k at it, but i can tell you that— am fairly 0k at it, but i can tell you that the _ am fairly 0k at it, but i can tell you that the websites - am fairly 0k at it, but i can tell you that the websites for- am fairly 0k at it, but i can tell you that the websites for a - you that the websites for a south-west _ you that the websites for a south—west railway- you that the websites for a south—west railway was . you that the websites for a - south—west railway was absolutely impossible — south—west railway was absolutely impossible for _ south—west railway was absolutely impossible for me _ south—west railway was absolutely impossible for me to _ south—west railway was absolutely impossible for me to navigate. - south—west railway was absolutely impossible for me to navigate. i l south—west railway was absolutely. impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a _ impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a ticket, — impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a ticket, i— impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a ticket, i bought _ impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a ticket, i bought a _ impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, - impossible for me to navigate. i did buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but. buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i spent _ buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i spent more — buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i spent more money— buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i spent more money than - buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i spent more money than i - buy a ticket, i bought a ticket, but i spent more money than i shouldl i spent more money than i should have _ i spent more money than i should have done — i spent more money than i should have done-— i spent more money than i should have done. ., , ,, ., have done. personally, i think that if have done. personally, ithink that if ou have done. personally, i think that if ou are have done. personally, i think that if you are using — have done. personally, i think that if you are using the _ have done. personally, i think that if you are using the national- if you are using the national railways website themselves, they potentially make that were difficult, whereas ijust going to a generic site, rachel i don't know if i'm allowed to name it. ijust see a want a train from huddersfield to milton keynes, and then google brings up... i milton keynes, and then google brings up- - -_ brings up... i think we can say trainline. _ brings up... i think we can say trainline, because _ brings up... i think we can say trainline, because i _ brings up... i think we can say trainline, because i think- brings up... i think we can say trainline, because i think it i brings up... i think we can say trainline, because i think it is| trainline, because i think it is quite helpful for people to know, and that is the one people go to, and that is the one people go to, and it is useful for someone like pat to know. neville did you want to say something?— pat to know. neville did you want to say something? when all these things work, it is terrific, _ say something? when all these things work, it is terrific, and _ say something? when all these things work, it is terrific, and they _ say something? when all these things work, it is terrific, and they can - work, it is terrific, and they can be simple — work, it is terrific, and they can be simple and straightforward to use, but— be simple and straightforward to use, but the question is, the technology goes wrong. we had this fantastic— technology goes wrong. we had this fantastic example with nats going wrong _ fantastic example with nats going wrong with the airlines, it is simple _ wrong with the airlines, it is simple. 0ne document came on in the wrong _ simple. 0ne document came on in the wrong format, and all of a sudden people _ wrong format, and all of a sudden people are — wrong format, and all of a sudden people are sleeping on the street and airport floors for days on end. the question is, if we are going to put in _ the question is, if we are going to put in and — the question is, if we are going to put in and rely on technology, then that technology has to have manual processes _ that technology has to have manual processes and be foolproof. gn that technology has to have manual processes and be foolproof. on that very subject. _ processes and be foolproof. on that very subject. sorry _ processes and be foolproof. on that very subject, sorry to _ processes and be foolproof. on that very subject, sorry to interrupt, - very subject, sorry to interrupt, nick in new mills in derbyshire, you had this situation, didn't you, where something didn't quite go right and ended up being a very stressfuljourney?— right and ended up being a very stressfuljourney? right and ended up being a very stressful 'ourne ? . ~ stressful 'ourney? yes. when we went down to stressfuljourney? yes. when we went down to london. _ stressfuljourney? yes. when we went down to london, i— stressfuljourney? yes. when we went down to london, i tried _ stressfuljourney? yes. when we went down to london, i tried to _ stressfuljourney? yes. when we went down to london, i tried to buy - stressfuljourney? yes. when we went down to london, i tried to buy some i down to london, i tried to buy some tickets online, i bought them, but i had to go to a ticket machine to buy them, and itjust gave me a big massive bunch of tickets, and coming back from london, we are getting on the train, we couldn't find a ticket, so it was almost like there's something missing. then they just let me on, because there's a heap of people behind me, but i'd rather have spoken to somebody at a ticket office, because i'd rather not go online, because it's just hard work. i'd ratherjust speak to somebody, and they would just tell me what to do. i somebody, and they would 'ust tell me what to at somebody, and they would 'ust tell me what to do. i get the convenience to all of you. — me what to do. i get the convenience to all of you. but _ me what to do. i get the convenience to all of you, but you _ me what to do. i get the convenience to all of you, but you also _ to all of you, but you also acknowledge that actually the vast majority of people are moving to online are using apps, and therefore the expectation and pressure on ticket offices it is not the same? they are not being used in the same way. really valuable to people who need them, that the volume of inquiries are tickets that are being sold is going down so significantly that we need to address it, don't we? ., . that we need to address it, don't we? . , ., , we? that it is not 'ust about the tickets, we? that it is not 'ust about the tickets. we h we? that it is notjust about the tickets, we understand - we? that it is notjust about the tickets, we understand that - we? that it is notjust about the tickets, we understand that the| tickets, we understand that the volume — tickets, we understand that the volume is — tickets, we understand that the volume is changing, but they have to put in _ volume is changing, but they have to put in a _ volume is changing, but they have to put in a system that is effective for that — put in a system that is effective for that shrinking level. we are an ageing _ for that shrinking level. we are an ageing economy, we have a growing population— ageing economy, we have a growing population of people that are getting — population of people that are getting older. this isn't a problem that is— getting older. this isn't a problem that is going to go away, it is not going _ that is going to go away, it is not going to — that is going to go away, it is not going to be — that is going to go away, it is not going to be resolved by the systems and technologies and processes in place _ and technologies and processes in place that— and technologies and processes in place that we have today that needs to be -- _ place that we have today that needs to be —— there needs to be a fuller answer. _ to be —— there needs to be a fuller answer. and — to be —— there needs to be a fuller answer, and some implementation rather— answer, and some implementation rather than — answer, and some implementation rather thanjust closing answer, and some implementation rather than just closing them and putting _ rather than just closing them and putting people onto platforms. will have to putting people onto platforms. have to see putting people onto platforms. ii have to see what the transport secretary ultimately decides, because he will be looking at the public responses to this through the consultation period, but he will be the one to make the decision. thank you so much to nicola, neville, pat and nick. we will come to more of your calls. mark harper, current transport secretary, grant shapps former transport secretary, may be announced as the new defence secretary imminently. let's go to our chief political correspondence. we brought you the news that ben wallace, we knew this would happen, he has officially designed and is —— resigned and stepped down as defence secretary, and we are expecting confirmation that grant shapps will take his place. that confirmation that grant shapps will take his place-— take his place. that is exactly ritht. take his place. that is exactly right- grant — take his place. that is exactly right. grant shapps _ take his place. that is exactly right. grant shapps with - take his place. that is exactly right. grant shapps with a - take his place. that is exactly - right. grant shapps with a beaming smile walked into number ten a while ago, and in the strange choreography of government reshuffle is, that basically tells he will get the vacant job basically tells he will get the vacantjob of defence secretary. you are absolutely right to say that it wasn't that long ago he was transport secretary. it was less than a year ago. defence would be his fifthjob in than a year ago. defence would be his fifth job in that year. it speaks partly to the extraordinary crazy year we've had in westminster, but also the fact that successive prime ministers really prize grant shapps's communication abilities. this is the biggestjob he will have had for any significant period of time, if he lasts longer than he did as home secretary, six days! it is a real vote of confidence from rishi sunak, if, as appears likely, he is given thejob. itrrul’ill sunak, if, as appears likely, he is given the job-— given the 'ob. will be here from grant given the job. will be here from grant shapps — given the job. will be here from grant shapps straightaway, - given the job. will be here from grant shapps straightaway, or l given the job. will be here from i grant shapps straightaway, orjust get a statement, what is likely to happen? i get a statement, what is likely to ha- ten? . . get a statement, what is likely to ha i ten? , . ., get a statement, what is likely to ha- ten? . . . ., happen? i expect we will hear from him. he happen? i expect we will hear from him- he will _ happen? i expect we will hear from him. he will want _ happen? i expect we will hear from him. he will want to _ happen? i expect we will hear from him. he will want to assure - happen? i expect we will hear from him. he will want to assure britainl him. he will want to assure britain and the voting public, but more generally, giving thisjob, the world, that the uk position on ukraine is unchanged. it is very unusual that ben wallace, the outgoing defence secretary, held the job so long. i think all of britain's allies, probably all of britain's allies, probably all of britain's enemies, if i can use that word, knew where he stood and where the government stood on key issues, including, of course, at the moment, the war in ukraine. i think grant shapps will want to send out a very clear message that he stands completely with where ben wallace did on that issue. actually, he has been a bit involved in the issue already in a couple of ways. he is currently the energy security secretary, and that means dealing with the issues for energy raised by russia's invasion of ukraine, but also, on a more personal level, he and his family to ken a family of ukrainian refugees early in the war, and he has written about how that was for their family, and and he has written about how that was for theirfamily, and some of the teething problems, but also generally found it a very positive experience. grant shapps has spoken about the war in ukraine before, in fact he was in ukraine in his currentjobjust a few fact he was in ukraine in his currentjob just a few days ago, so i would expect we would hear from him basically reassuring, telling the public how he sees the role, how he sees the geopolitics of the role. the ever—changing merry—go—round of the present governments cabinet office roles as i was fascinating to watch. similarly on the show, we are ever changing and evolving. it means after 10am this morning, we will no longer be talking about cracking eggs on children's heads. we will shift our attention and our focus to the future defence secretary and his inbox and what you want to see from him. if you want to share any thoughts on that, you can do so from 10am this morning. interesting to know in ben wallace's resignation letter he said the world will get more insecure and more unstable. quite a parting shot for the next defence secretary. a huge job to take on, one of the great offices of state? it’s job to take on, one of the great offices of state?— offices of state? it's a huge 'ob and it's become �* offices of state? it's a huge 'ob and it's become even i offices of state? it's a huge 'ob and it's become even hugeri offices of state? it's a huge job and it's become even huger in| offices of state? it's a huge job i and it's become even huger in the last year also. certainly it is more significant, more directly consequential than when ben wallace started doing it in 2019. it is worth noting, ben wallace talks about the insecurity he thinks is coming to the world, he is notjust talking with four years of defence policy, before that he did four years as security minister under theresa may and the home office and thatis theresa may and the home office and that is much more of a behind—the—scenes role, not high—profile by dealing with terror threats and terror attacks, as they are sadly were several of during his stint there. ben wallace is basically speaking with seven unbroken years of waking up every morning and being told by his civil servants about all their threats, global and domestic, facing this country. so you might say it's understandable he has a fairly gloomy outlook but i think people also will, probably should take it very seriously. i also will, probably should take it very seriously-— also will, probably should take it very seriously. i am wrong, not one ofthe very seriously. i am wrong, not one of the great — very seriously. i am wrong, not one of the great offices _ very seriously. i am wrong, not one of the great offices of _ very seriously. i am wrong, not one of the great offices of state. - very seriously. i am wrong, not one of the great offices of state. but i of the great offices of state. but when you look at the kind of responsibilities that come with it, it is certainly up there. as you say, terror threat, ben wallace talked about going to bed with three mobile phones by his bedside, something like that. it is notjust that. you look at what's been going on in ukraine, the future of the armed forces and where we are going with aland high—tech warfare. that is going to be a massive, massive issue. as well as, as you say, the terror threat as well. so there is a huge amount for any single individual to take on here. and he will need to develop a productive relationship with the armed forces. ben wallace was a thing seem to be very good at protecting and ensuring defence budgets on their behalf, wasn't he? ., . defence budgets on their behalf, wasn't he?— wasn't he? that is right. ben wallace in — wasn't he? that is right. ben wallace in fact _ wasn't he? that is right. ben wallace in fact was _ wasn't he? that is right. ben wallace in fact was a - wasn't he? that is right. ben wallace in fact was a former| wasn't he? that is right. ben - wallace in fact was a former soldier and i think thatjust brought him immediately and done an ongoing basis a lot of goodwill from the armed forces. of course, that is important for a defence secretary. but also, i guess they speak through their actions. a5 but also, i guess they speak through their actions. as you said, a constant tension, notjust their actions. as you said, a constant tension, not just at the moment because of the ukraine wall, though of course that has heightened the tension, but a constant tension for the defence secretary is battling the treasury over whether there should be cuts, cuts in spending, cuts in troop numbers, whatever it may be and grant shapps will be coming to the job, whatever it may be and grant shapps will be coming to thejob, as whatever it may be and grant shapps will be coming to the job, as we think he will be, with the benefit of a lot of experience from a lot of different government departments. notjust in the last year but stretching back to 2010, he was a minister in david cameron's vez government. a lot of experience of negotiating with the treasury but he has never been a defence minister. so we don't know what his or indeed if he does have any existing views on defence spending, on whether there should be cuts and where they should fall and if so where. but i think knowing how grant shapps approaches government, i think he will probably want to cast himself as a bit of an honest broker. someone who has come into this fresh but also has the benefit of years in government to sort of know when someone is making a reasonable case for spending and when actually sometimes the treasury has a bit of a point in wanting to cutback. we're still waiting for that news to officially drop. so when it does, we will come back to you, henry. it is just coming through, we are being told. a5 just coming through, we are being told. as you can see there, new defence secretary will be appointed. i think... itjust been confirmed? henry, your lines of communication are better than mine, what can you tell us? i are better than mine, what can you tell us? , ., are better than mine, what can you tell us? i. , ., are better than mine, what can you tellus? ,, tell us? i can tell you grant shapps has been confirmed _ tell us? i can tell you grant shapps has been confirmed as _ tell us? i can tell you grant shapps has been confirmed as the - tell us? i can tell you grant shapps has been confirmed as the new - has been confirmed as the new defence secretary. grant shapps immediately catapulted to one of the most seniorjobs in government. he will become one of the faces of not just britain bus night but the west's response to the war in ukraine. very significant appointment from rishi sunak. a vote of confidence and grant shapps because it means that there will be a broader reshuffle than we expected. grant shapps will have to be replaced as energy secretary. rishi sunak aside all summer to think about it and decided grant shapps is the person for thatjob. a5 shapps is the person for thatjob. as regards to that reshuffle, bearing in mind that we are potentiallyjust bearing in mind that we are potentially just over 12 bearing in mind that we are potentiallyjust over 12 months out from an election, how do you think the prime minister will play that? you are right to raise the election because the fact grant shapps has been given thatjob as defence secretary tells us a little something, which is rishi sunak wants to concentrate on commune ocean or skills. friends and foes of grant shapps say how good he is at communicating and doing interviews with people like you, rachel. rishi sunak has clearly decided with an election around the corner, that is a very important skill. i wouldn't be surprised that if that important job of energy secretary, they are responsible for energy and net zero, which is quite a controversial area at the moment, he also will go for someone he thinks can sort of communique, walk that difficult tightrope of explaining the position of the government when a lot of people on all sides of the argument might be dissatisfied with their approach. might be dissatisfied with their a- roach. ., ~' ,, might be dissatisfied with their a-troach. ., ~' , might be dissatisfied with their a- roach. ., ~' ,, , . might be dissatisfied with their a-troach. ., , . ~ approach. thank you very much. we knew the news _ approach. thank you very much. we knew the news was _ approach. thank you very much. we knew the news was coming - approach. thank you very much. we knew the news was coming but - approach. thank you very much. we knew the news was coming but we l approach. thank you very much. we i knew the news was coming but we have been able to bring it to you as it is confirmed. ben wallace leaving his post as defence secretary to be replaced by grant shapps. that has just been confirmed in the last minute or so. we are keeping an eye on downing street to see whether grant shapps or the prime minister might come out and speak at some stage. henry has outlined what a vital role it is, in terms of this country's future and its position in the world. we would love to know your thoughts on that. we will discuss that after 10.00 this morning. we will cut back to downing street if anything happens there in the meantime but right now, time to check with the bbc news at 9.39. it has been confirmed energy secretary grant shapps has been named as the new defence secretary. ben wallace earlier confirmed his resignation as defence secretary after four years in the post. resignation as defence secretary afterfour years in the post. more on that later in the programme. police chiefs in england and wales are being given new powers to sack officers found guilty of gross misconduct. the change has been prompted by the convictions of former met police officers wayne couzens — who murdered sarah everard — and the serial rapist, david carrick. the most senior officers will now chair disciplin—ary hearings, instead of an independent lawyer. more than 60 people have been killed, and at least lto others injured, in a fire at a block of flats injohannesburg. it's unclear how it started at the five—story building overnight. and members of the rmt union are set to gather outside downing street in a last ditch attempt to save hundreds of ticket offices across the country. a consultation ends tomorrow on plans to close up to 1,000 ticket offices over the next three years. shourjo sarkar has the sport. good morning. rangers manager michael beale says their champions league qualifying play—off tie "came far too soon" for his still developing side. psv eindhoven beat rangers 7—3 over two legs, and go through to the champions league group stage. midfielder matheus nunes has been cleared to have a medical after a formal agreement was reached over his move from wolves to manchester city. the transfer fee of £53 million will be a club record sale for wolves. elsewhere, the 20 year old spain forward, ansu fati, is set to complete a season—long loan move to brighton from barcelona. 5th seed casper ruud and 7th seed stefanos tsitsipas were the two biggest seeds to fall on day 3 of the us open tennis. novak djokovic, iga swiatek and caroline wozniaki are all through. british qualifier lily miyazaki lost to switzerland's belinda bencic. and england's cricketers cruised to a seven wicket victory over new zealand in the first t20 at chester—le—street. pace bowler brydon carse took three wickets on debut as england won with six overs to spare. good morning. welcome to the programme. if you'rejustjoining programme. if you're just joining us, programme. if you'rejustjoining us, rachel burden info nicky campbell. howeveryou us, rachel burden info nicky campbell. however you are listening to us are watching us this morning, we are talking about the closure of ticket offices all around england at railway stations. the public consultation on that closes in the next 2a hours. you are having your views before ultimately the transport secretary will make his decision. meanwhile, another cabinet post very much the subject of our conversation. the new appointment to defence secretary. ben wallace is going, we knew that, he's gone and he has been replaced by grant shapps. after 10.00, we want to know what you want from the new defence secretary? we had talked about ukraine and the terror threat and high—tech warfare and ai. we have talked about protection of the armed forces, and particularly if you are in the armed forces currently or have been in the past, we would love to know what you think. this is the man who will be your voice in cabinet, i guess, man who will be your voice in cabinet, iguess, in man who will be your voice in cabinet, i guess, in government in the future. what do you want from him? all the usual numbers to call us on and contact us on. so it was back injuly the government announced in conjunction with the train operating companies that they would be closing the vast majority of ticket offices all around england at railway stations. around 1000 offices could close. a huge backlash. the public consultation was open. there have been over 500,000 responses to that consultation and that closes tomorrow. so we really are in the last kind of window of opportunity for you to share your views on all of this before ultimately the transport secretary makes his decision on their future. the reality of their situation is fewer and fewer people are using ticket offices. so isn't some kind of change inevitable, don't wejust have to embrace it and recognise actually, the convenience of buying on line —— online is where it will go? that is the movement we are heading in. loads of you getting in touch this morning to tell us why this doesn't work for you. we have torn in derby, francis in bury st edmunds and derek in heybridge. good morning to all of you. good edmunds and derek in heybridge. good morning to all of you.— morning to all of you. good morning. good morning- _ morning to all of you. good morning. good morning. tom, _ morning to all of you. good morning. good morning. tom, you _ morning to all of you. good morning. good morning. tom, you have - morning to all of you. good morning. good morning. tom, you have been i good morning. tom, you have been holdint on good morning. tom, you have been holding on so _ good morning. tom, you have been holding on so thank _ good morning. tom, you have been holding on so thank you _ good morning. tom, you have been holding on so thank you for- good morning. tom, you have been holding on so thank you for that, i holding on so thank you for that, whilst we have been bringing the audience breaking news. ticket offices, when was the last time you used one? ~ ., , ., ~ used one? well, i actually work in the area, used one? well, i actually work in the area. so _ used one? well, i actually work in the area. so i— used one? well, i actually work in the area, so i watch _ used one? well, i actually work in the area, so i watch people - used one? well, i actually work in the area, so i watch people use i used one? well, i actually work in i the area, so i watch people use them and i think they are still used and are very helpful to people who are disabled and just elderly who can't interface with their system. i think my general observation would be for lack of a better time, we are trying to use a band aid to stop the bleeding for someone who has had their leg amputated. by that i mean their leg amputated. by that i mean the whole train operating companies system is nonsensical. i know the people are going to harp on about nationalisation of the railway but i think how is it germany and the other european countries do this and do it so efficiently? to the point where they own subsidiaries in train operating companies and then we are pumping money into it, it makes no sense. , ., , �* sense. the government 'ust doesn't think the sense. the government 'ust doesn't thinkttetax— sense. the government 'ust doesn't think the tax payer i sense. the governmentjust doesn't think the tax payer should _ sense. the governmentjust doesn't think the tax payer should be - think the tax payer should be subsidising rail passengers. if you think of all the people who live outside the big city hubs and outside the big city hubs and outside london who don't have access to decent train services, why should they be the ones to pay for your train ticket offices?— they be the ones to pay for your train ticket offices? they are 'ust a dro- train ticket offices? they are 'ust a dro in train ticket offices? they are 'ust a «hop in the fi train ticket offices? they are 'ust a drop in the ocean i train ticket offices? they are 'ust a drop in the ocean in i train ticket offices? they are 'ust a drop in the ocean in terms i train ticket offices? they are just a drop in the ocean in terms of i train ticket offices? they are just i a drop in the ocean in terms of the expenditure the government uses, in terms of the rail network itself. they are efficiencies that can be taken up. less state owned devices, thatis taken up. less state owned devices, that is why the prices are going up. i think they are looking at the wrong area. this will make no difference and when they finish it, if they go through with this, you will find in a few years' time if not earlier, they will still be talking about efficiency savings because this is the wrong thing. you need to deal with it from the place it hurts. you have to look at the big expenditures. we are pumping millions into other governments that are operating our train companies, that makes no sense. i are operating our train companies, that makes no sense.— that makes no sense. i hear you. let's bring _ that makes no sense. i hear you. let's bring francis _ that makes no sense. i hear you. let's bring francis and _ that makes no sense. i hear you. let's bring francis and derek i that makes no sense. i hear you. j let's bring francis and derek into the chat. do you want to respond to anything thomas said, either of you? i couldn't hear him very well. but i can give _ i couldn't hear him very well. but i can give you — i couldn't hear him very well. but i can give you my experience of ticket offices, _ can give you my experience of ticket offices, etc — can give you my experience of ticket offices, etc. go can give you my experience of ticket offices. etc-— offices, etc. go on, go ahead, francis- _ offices, etc. go on, go ahead, francis- l— offices, etc. go on, go ahead, francis. i do _ offices, etc. go on, go ahead, francis. i do do _ offices, etc. go on, go ahead, francis. i do do it _ offices, etc. go on, go ahead, francis. i do do it online, i i offices, etc. go on, go ahead, i francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets — francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets online _ francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets online but _ francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets online but i _ francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets online but i am - francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets online but i am so i francis. i do do it online, i booked my tickets online but i am so very| my tickets online but i am so very nervous _ my tickets online but i am so very nervous about have i done it properly— nervous about have i done it properly or not. in fact, my grandchildren have two come down and check it— grandchildren have two come down and check it all— grandchildren have two come down and check it all out for me just to make sure i_ check it all out for me just to make sure i have — check it all out for me just to make sure i have done it all. when we had the ticket _ sure i have done it all. when we had the ticket offices, i could pop down there _ the ticket offices, i could pop down there and _ the ticket offices, i could pop down there and just ask them to check it out that— there and just ask them to check it out that i_ there and just ask them to check it out that i had everything 0k and i have _ out that i had everything 0k and i have actually done it wrong before and they— have actually done it wrong before and they have corrected it. i am quite _ and they have corrected it. i am quite good _ and they have corrected it. i am quite good at getting the cheapest tickets. _ quite good at getting the cheapest tickets, i'm not mad at that. but it isiust_ tickets, i'm not mad at that. but it isiust that — tickets, i'm not mad at that. but it isjust that anxiety tickets, i'm not mad at that. but it is just that anxiety about how i got it right, _ is just that anxiety about how i got it right, have i done it right? is everything _ it right, have i done it right? is everything 0k? and then again, when iam everything 0k? and then again, when i am travelling, i get so desperate that there — i am travelling, i get so desperate that there is someone on the station that there is someone on the station that i_ that there is someone on the station that i can _ that there is someone on the station that i can go — that there is someone on the station that i can go to that i can check i am getting — that i can go to that i can check i am getting on the right train, i'm doing the right thing. you know, it is a very. — doing the right thing. you know, it is a very, very anxious experience for me _ is a very, very anxious experience for me altogether.— is a very, very anxious experience for me altogether. derek, what do ou for me altogether. derek, what do you reckon? _ for me altogether. derek, what do you reckon? well, _ for me altogether. derek, what do you reckon? well, i _ for me altogether. derek, what do you reckon? well, ithink- for me altogether. derek, what do you reckon? well, i think that i for me altogether. derek, what do you reckon? well, i think that the| you reckon? well, i think that the ticketint you reckon? well, i think that the ticketing system, _ you reckon? well, i think that the ticketing system, before - you reckon? well, i think that the ticketing system, before they i you reckon? well, i think that the | ticketing system, before they start closing _ ticketing system, before they start closing ticket — ticketing system, before they start closing ticket offices, _ ticketing system, before they start closing ticket offices, i— ticketing system, before they start closing ticket offices, i do - closing ticket offices, i do occasionally— closing ticket offices, i do occasionally use - closing ticket offices, i do occasionally use the - closing ticket offices, idol occasionally use the trains closing ticket offices, i do i occasionally use the trains and closing ticket offices, i do _ occasionally use the trains and when i occasionally use the trains and when i dot _ occasionally use the trains and when i do. i_ occasionally use the trains and when i do. i rely— occasionally use the trains and when ldo. l rely on— occasionally use the trains and when i do. i rely on the _ occasionally use the trains and when i do, i rely on the ticket _ occasionally use the trains and when i do, i rely on the ticket offices - i do, i rely on the ticket offices because — i do, i rely on the ticket offices because you _ i do, i rely on the ticket offices because you go _ i do, i rely on the ticket offices because you go online - i do, i rely on the ticket offices because you go online to - i do, i rely on the ticket offices because you go online to buy. i do, i rely on the ticket offices because you go online to buy aj because you go online to buy a ticket, — because you go online to buy a ticket. you've _ because you go online to buy a ticket, you've got _ because you go online to buy a ticket, you've got absolutely i because you go online to buy ai ticket, you've got absolutely no idea you — ticket, you've got absolutely no idea you are _ ticket, you've got absolutely no idea you are getting _ ticket, you've got absolutely no idea you are getting the - ticket, you've got absolutely no idea you are getting the right. idea you are getting the right thing — idea you are getting the right thing it— idea you are getting the right thing it is— idea you are getting the right thing it is so— idea you are getting the right thing. it is so complicated. i idea you are getting the right- thing. it is so complicated. there are so— thing. it is so complicated. there are so many— thing. it is so complicated. there are so many options. _ thing. it is so complicated. there are so many options. it _ thing. it is so complicated. there are so many options. it is - thing. it is so complicated. there are so many options. it isjust- are so many options. it isjust ridiculous~ _ are so many options. it isjust ridiculous. so _ are so many options. it is 'ust ridieuteus.�* are so many options. it is 'ust ridiculous. , ., ., ,, ridiculous. so they need to make those kinds _ ridiculous. so they need to make those kinds of _ ridiculous. so they need to make those kinds of services _ ridiculous. so they need to make those kinds of services much i ridiculous. so they need to make i those kinds of services much more user do they?— those kinds of services much more user do they?_ i - user do they? absolutely. i mentioned _ user do they? absolutely. i mentioned a _ user do they? absolutely. i mentioned a particular i user do they? absolutely. i mentioned a particular app| user do they? absolutely. i | mentioned a particular app i user do they? absolutely. i i mentioned a particular app i think many people use but there are all different kinds of ways to get your tickets. you can go to the individual train company, you can use one of these apps so i understand, i understand the confusion around this. does it put you off travelling by train, derek? it doesn't put me off. i don't use it a great— it doesn't put me off. i don't use it a great deal _ it doesn't put me off. i don't use it a great deal. i— it doesn't put me off. i don't use it a great deal. i use _ it doesn't put me off. i don't use it a great deal. i use it _ it doesn't put me off. i don't use it a great deal. i use it typically. it a great deal. i use it typically when _ it a great deal. i use it typically when we — it a great deal. i use it typically when we go _ it a great deal. i use it typically when we go to— it a great deal. i use it typically when we go to town _ it a great deal. i use it typically when we go to town because i it a great deal. i use it typicallyl when we go to town because we it a great deal. i use it typically- when we go to town because we live out in _ when we go to town because we live out in essex — when we go to town because we live out in essex and _ when we go to town because we live out in essex and travel— when we go to town because we live out in essex and travel into - when we go to town because we live out in essex and travel into london. | out in essex and travel into london. on a _ out in essex and travel into london. on a pleasure — out in essex and travel into london. on a pleasure basis, _ out in essex and travel into london. on a pleasure basis, not— out in essex and travel into london. on a pleasure basis, not workwise l on a pleasure basis, not workwise now _ on a pleasure basis, not workwise now but — on a pleasure basis, not workwise now but i — on a pleasure basis, not workwise now but i am _ on a pleasure basis, not workwise now. but i am always _ on a pleasure basis, not workwisel now. but i am always apprehensive about _ now. but i am always apprehensive about trying — now. but i am always apprehensive about trying the _ now. but i am always apprehensive about trying the online _ now. but i am always apprehensive about trying the online things - about trying the online things because — about trying the online things because i— about trying the online things because i look— about trying the online things because i look at _ about trying the online things because i look at them - about trying the online things because i look at them and ii about trying the online things - because i look at them and i think, what _ because i look at them and i think, what the _ because i look at them and i think, what the hell— because i look at them and i think, what the hell is _ because i look at them and i think, what the hell is the _ because i look at them and i think, what the hell is the best _ because i look at them and i think, what the hell is the best thing? i. what the hell is the best thing? i have _ what the hell is the best thing? i have a _ what the hell is the best thing? i have a disabled _ what the hell is the best thing? i have a disabled rail— what the hell is the best thing? i have a disabled rail user- what the hell is the best thing? i have a disabled rail user card, i. have a disabled rail user card, i don't _ have a disabled rail user card, i don't know— have a disabled rail user card, i don't know if— have a disabled rail user card, i don't know if i'm _ have a disabled rail user card, i don't know if i'm better- have a disabled rail user card, i don't know if i'm better off i have a disabled rail user card, i. don't know if i'm better off using that or— don't know if i'm better off using that or doing _ don't know if i'm better off using that or doing something - don't know if i'm better off using that or doing something else. i. don't know if i'm better off using. that or doing something else. i go into the _ that or doing something else. i go into the booking _ that or doing something else. i go into the booking office _ that or doing something else. i go into the booking office and - that or doing something else. i go into the booking office and say, i into the booking office and say, which _ into the booking office and say, which is — into the booking office and say, which is the _ into the booking office and say, which is the best _ into the booking office and say, which is the best ticket - into the booking office and say, which is the best ticket to - into the booking office and say, which is the best ticket to buy? | which is the best ticket to buy? talk_ which is the best ticket to buy? talk to— which is the best ticket to buy? talk to a — which is the best ticket to buy? talk to a human. _ which is the best ticket to buy? talk to a human.— talk to a human. rely on their experience- — talk to a human. rely on their experience. thank _ talk to a human. rely on their experience. thank you - talk to a human. rely on their experience. thank you derek l talk to a human. rely on their. experience. thank you derek and frances as _ experience. thank you derek and frances as well. _ experience. thank you derek and frances as well. alison _ experience. thank you derek and frances as well. alison newton i frances as well. alison newton abbot. when was the last time you went to a ticket office? i've been asking everyone else, what about you? i asking everyone else, what about ou? ., . . ~' asking everyone else, what about ou? .,. . asking everyone else, what about ou? you? i went to a ticket office last wednesday- _ you? i went to a ticket office last wednesday- i— you? i went to a ticket office last wednesday. i always _ you? i went to a ticket office last wednesday. i always use - you? i went to a ticket office last wednesday. i always use the - you? i went to a ticket office last l wednesday. i always use the ticket offices to buy my ticket. truth? wednesday. i always use the ticket offices to buy my ticket.— offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because _ offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because it _ offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because it is _ offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because it is a _ offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because it is a bit - offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because it is a bit of- offices to buy my ticket. why is that? because it is a bit of a i that? because it is a bit of a process. _ that? because it is a bit of a process, really. _ that? because it is a bit of a process, really. i— that? because it is a bit of a process, really. i am - that? because it is a bit of a process, really. i am only. that? because it is a bit of a| process, really. i am only 30 that? because it is a bit of a - process, really. i am only 30 so i am able to use the apps and i can work it out completely fine. i did find that by going to the ticket office i actually saved, i'm going from somerset to london and my ticket was £10 cheaper through the ticket was £10 cheaper through the ticket office. g0 ticket was £10 cheaper through the ticket office-— ticket office. go on, carry on, sor . ticket office. go on, carry on, sorry- but — ticket office. go on, carry on, sorry- but i — ticket office. go on, carry on, sorry. but i think— ticket office. go on, carry on, sorry. but i think the - ticket office. go on, carry on, sorry. but i think the ticket i sorry. but i think the ticket offices are _ sorry. but i think the ticket offices are vital _ sorry. but i think the ticket offices are vital for - sorry. but i think the ticket offices are vital for not - sorry. but i think the ticket i offices are vital for not people like me, really, because i can use my phone but at the same time, i actually enjoy going to the ticket office and chatting to people. the person at the ticket office on wednesday asked me where i was going and what i was doing and it was nice to have a chat. i think that is what we are starting to lose in the uk, is the banks have all gone online. the supermarkets are all sale service and actually, that human interaction is really important. for the sake of saving profits, i think the sake of saving profits, i think the banks are saving money by not having branches open but that doesn't benefit us in any way. there is a wider point _ doesn't benefit us in any way. there is a wider point here, _ doesn't benefit us in any way. there is a wider point here, the _ doesn't benefit us in any way. there is a wider point here, the ability - is a wider point here, the ability to interact face—to—face with humans that are not our immediate circle of family and friends which is potentially being lost to a whole generation of children who do everything online. that is a whole other phone in, alice. let me put this to this is what the train company say. they say there will be more staff available to give help, face—to—face help to customers, so they say you would still get those chats. they say customers... they say customers will never have to travel out of their way to buy tickets. they say those with accessibility need will always be supported and all rail staff will be treated fairly. their new roles will be more engaging, they will have more time to talk to you, alice. laughter you are not buying it? laughter you are not bu in: it? ~ . , you are not buying it? we all wish we had more _ you are not buying it? we all wish we had more time _ you are not buying it? we all wish we had more time to _ you are not buying it? we all wish we had more time to talk- you are not buying it? we all wish we had more time to talk to - you are not buying it? we all wish l we had more time to talk to people but that is just not going to happen. the thing is, for me, maybe ifelt personally i happen. the thing is, for me, maybe i felt personally i have been saved by ticket offices before. when i lived in southampton, i was followed home from work when i used to have to get the train and i went up to someone at the ticket office who helped me and i was able to find somebody because i knew where to go. that is the problem i have with them saying there will be staff on the platforms, is where will they be? will i be able to find them if i need them for a safety reason? all these people that have said they feel nervous about getting their tickets, will they be able to find them straightaway? well those people then have the ability to sort their tickets out if there is no ticket office? �* . . ~ i. tickets out if there is no ticket office? �* . . ~' i., . tickets out if there is no ticket office? �* . . ~' . �* office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk _ office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk to _ office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk to me _ office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk to me if _ office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk to me if i'm - office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk to me if i'm out - office? alice, thank you so much i'd come and talk to me if i'm out and. come and talk to me if i'm out and about because i love a chat. thank you for talking to us. attacks come as a lone female traveller i don't feel safe if there are no staff at the station and it means all the facilities are locked with travellers having no where to go. concern that might be a knock on for this. let's catch up with the breaking news this morning that we have been bringing to you. important news in the political world. the defence secretary ben wallace has officially resigned and been replaced by grant shapps. 0ur chief political reporter can bring us the latest. what reaction has there been to this appointment, henry? h latest. what reaction has there been to this appointment, henry?- to this appointment, henry? i think there is general— to this appointment, henry? i think there is general enthusiasm - to this appointment, henry? i think there is general enthusiasm from i there is general enthusiasm from conservative mps. borisjohnson, the former prime minister, says he thinks grant shapps is an excellent appointment to succeed ben wallace. but i think overall, people are quite surprised. it was only really last night that grant shapps' name was floated as a possible replacement for ben wallace. we have known that ben wallace was leaving the job known that ben wallace was leaving thejob basically known that ben wallace was leaving the job basically all known that ben wallace was leaving thejob basically all summer known that ben wallace was leaving the job basically all summer but grant shapps's name didn't figure as a replacement. so it's a real vote of confidence from rishi sunak in grant shapps in a job which is also important that at a time when russia has invaded ukraine and there is war on the european continent, it's obviously hugely, hugely significant.— obviously hugely, hugely siunificant. ~ . , obviously hugely, hugely siunificant. . . . , significant. we have spoken already about the fact _ significant. we have spoken already about the fact there _ significant. we have spoken already about the fact there is _ significant. we have spoken already about the fact there is quite - about the fact there is quite possibly going to be a general election or there will be at some stage next year, but quite possibly within the next 12 months orjust over 12 months. so this may be, who knows, only a short period of time that grant shapps holds this post. but other people have also said, well, he leaves his post as environment secretary, what about the government's commitment to net zero questioner every time there is a shift in secretary of state, there is a shift in teams, the whole operation gets kind of thrown up in the air once again, whilst a new appointment comes in to take over. it is disruptive for the operation of government departments, isn't it? exactly right. grant shapps is actually only be in the energy secretary for just a few months. actually only be in the energy secretary forjust a few months. the job was kind of created void by rishi sunak. he had a little shake up rishi sunak. he had a little shake up of how different things in whitehall are organised and grant shapps was put in charge of it. now he has moved down the road to the ministry of defence. we think that the new energy secretary is going to be somebody called claire coutinho. that will be a new name to a lot of people in westminster let alone the country at large because she's only been an mp since 2019. she will be the first mp of her generation, her vintage to make it to cabinet. that is a huge vote of confidence in her from rishi sunak. let me give you one clue as to why he might be giving her thejob. one clue as to why he might be giving herthejob. before one clue as to why he might be giving her thejob. before she became an mp in 2019, she worked in politics. in fact, she worked for rishi sunak. this is rishi sunak prising loyalty. but as you say, it's an increasingly controversial area within the conservative party and more generally and it is not necessarily always clear what side rishi sunak on the government will take. they are committed to net zero. it is in law that the uk will be net zero by 2050. but on some of theissues be net zero by 2050. but on some of the issues about how to achieve that, there is a very a large debate going on in government and we will be hearing a lot more about what claire coutinho things about it if as seems likely she gets the job. energy secretary, not environment secretary, the reshuffle is happening in my head! she is perceived to be a good performerfor the media as well, so that may be another reason why she is being put in the front facing role. as far as the defence appointment is concerned, it's a really big job. remind us what is likely to be the top of his in tray.— top of his in tray. ukraine, to put it simply- — top of his in tray. ukraine, to put it simply- that — top of his in tray. ukraine, to put it simply. that is _ top of his in tray. ukraine, to put it simply. that is the _ top of his in tray. ukraine, to put it simply. that is the overriding l it simply. that is the overriding geopolitical issue facing the ministry of defence and grant shapps probably today, if not very soon, will be eager to get out there and tell britain, also tell britain' allies and enemies that the uk is still completely behind ukraine. he will want to show that he is just as rock solid in his support of ukraine as barnwell —— ben wallace, so that will be his overriding priority. but then there are these overriding tensions you always get with defence secretaries, normally between the minister of defence and the treasury over money, spending, over whether the ministry of defence might need to cut back its spending or as ben wallace was offering arguing, be able to spend a bit more. grant shapps has never been a defence minister, hasn't spoken a lot about defence issues. he's been quite busy with a lot of otherjobs in recent years, so we don't really know where he stands on those sorts of questions. it will be very interesting. conservative mps apart from anything else will want to test that pretty soon, where grant shapps stands. he may not even know yet. thank you very much, henry. i am sure we will hear more from you in the next hour of the programme as well. reaction to the breaking news this morning that ben wallace, who we knew was going to step down, has officially resigned from his role as defence secretary and is being replaced by grant shapps, who was energy secretary. the replaced by grant shapps, who was energy secretary. the speculation replaced by grant shapps, who was energy secretary. the speculation is claire coutinho will replace him in a cabinet reshuffle but that is not confirmed at the moment. we have been bringing you the breaking news on bbc news, 5 live and bbc two. we have a discussion about the future of ticket offices at train stations also. are they out of date? we are in the last 2a hours of the public consultation. let me read you a couple of messages. no ticket offices in sweden at all. we need them here. everything is done via apps, it is also for the old, blind people and people without smartphones. another, i commute to birmingham two to three days a week by train and only use the ticket office, nevertheir by train and only use the ticket office, never their machines. by train and only use the ticket office, nevertheir machines. staff come out of the offices anyway when they are needed so the excuse is nonsense. another one here: ijust wanted to add, we are losing the service industry in this country at the train stations and supermarkets, very difficult to speak to our fellow human being. we are missing out on so much says angela. a quick final thought from stephen blackpool. you feel strongly about this, you have 30 seconds to put your case across. i this, you have 30 seconds to put your case across.— your case across. i am the rail oli your case across. i am the rail policy adviser _ your case across. i am the rail policy adviser with _ your case across. i am the rail policy adviser with disability . policy adviser with disability rights uk. we are concerned, there are 1a million disabled people in this country. the closure of ticket offices will actually defer people from travelling by rail. we are going to lose about a third of disabled people being free to travel and free to enjoy a day to day life. that is all we have time for but thank you so much. it was a point that was important to hear. right now, time to say goodbye to viewers on the bbc news and bbc two. thank you for being with us. thoughts on that, you can do so from 10am this morning. live from london, this is bbc news. at least 73 people are killed in a fire at a block of flats in johannesburg. this is the live scene from the city as the emergency services continue searching in the apartment building. former energy secretary grant shapps has been appointed as the new uk defence secretary. these are the live pictures from downing street — we'll be live with out correspondent there shortly. we'll be live with our correspondent there shortly. tropical storm idalia leaves a trail of destruction as it moves up the east coast. hello, i'm rajini vaidyanathan. we start with breaking news from south africa, where officials say at least 73 people have died after a fire engulfed a block of flats in johannesburg. dozens of others were injured, and rushed to hospital. many are suffering from smoke inhalation. firefighters were called to the five—storey building in the central business district in the early hours. emergency services at the scene say they were able to bring out most of the occupants, but expect the death toll to rise as the search for victims continues. reports suggest the occupants of the abandoned building were mostly undocumented immigrants. the head of the emergency services injohannesburg says it's currently