sunshine and occasional showers. beautiful weather in south—western scotland, the lake district and lancashire into the coast of wales, 18 degrees. but turning a little bit cooler. you can see from the wind direction, from the north and the norwegian sea spreading across the country and bringing showers. 16, i7 country and bringing showers. 16, 17 in scotland and in the south—east, around 21 degrees. it will probably hover about 20 degrees in the south for the next few days so this is the bank holiday weekend. elsewhere in the north it is the high teens and you can see a lot of rain icons on the weather map and on the outlook, so changeable weather. but i think bearable temperatures, not too cold just yet. it is too early for that. thanks, tomasz. and that's bbc news at ten. there's more analysis of the day's main stories on newsnight, which isjust getting under way on bbc two. the news continues here on bbc one as now its time to join our colleagues across the nations and regions for the news where you are, but from the ten team it's goodnight. did vladimir putin order the death of yevgeny prigozhin, who the rusisian authorities say was killed in an air crash north of moscow tonight? has prigozhin's death strengthened or weakened putin's position and and what does it meanfor ukraine? mark's in kiev. the news was greeted with delight by many ukrainians, they hold yevgeny prigozhin responsible for untold crimes in this country. we'll bejoined by the man who ran mi6's russia desk, an exiled russian politician and activist, and a russian specialist at the economist. also tonight, its the first republican debate of the top candidates but one. trump is a no show, he's got somewhere else to be tomorrow, so how will the others deal with the man whose poll ratings leave them all in the dust? marianna spring has been hearing from voters in milwaulkee, where the debate is taking place about memes and disinformtaions in the camapign. donald trump did some great things for the country as the president and i like is a platform and his philosophies but he isjust a little bit too much of a narcissist. and amateur scientists gather at loch ness the loch contains more water than all the lakes in england and wales combined. this weekend there's a new hi—tech hunt for the legendary sea creature which perhaps lurks below. good evening. he presented the biggest challenge to putin in 23 years. his short lived mutiny that saw his forces advance on moscow, demanding the sacking of russia's military leadership for botching the war in ukraine, was a humiliation for the russian president. and then at the last turn onjune 24th, exaclty two months ago, the mercenary leader suddenly halted his troops in the outskirts of the capital, denying he was mounting a coup, following a deal apparently brokered by the belarussian leader alexander lu kashenko. since then a target has been on prigozhin's back and progressively putin has been stripping him of his companies and powerbases. but putin seems to have been operating on the principle that revenge is a dish best served cold. the russian authorities have confirmed prigozhin and the neo—nazi founder of wagner, dimitri utkin, were on board the private jet that crashed in the tver region north of moscow. mark is in kviv for us. mark, how clear evidence is there that yevgeny prigozhin is dead? numerous official russian sources, official tv, the federal aviation authority are all saying it. one smaller russian media outlet is claiming his body had been identified in the wreckage, but whether or not that is true, the telegram channels of his followers have been talking about his death, so the assumption is pretty much universal that he has died. as you mention, dimitri utkin, the person who originally had wagner callsign on radio and in a sense was the founder of the organisation, was also on the plane, rumoured to have let that column towards moscow just months ago. the deputy head of the organisation was on the plane and the head of its internal security bureau was also on the plane. what we don't know yet from official russian sources is whether it was a bomb, whether it was shot down. there is widespread speculation based on various bits of evidence that it was shot down, but they are not saying that officially. you that it was shot down, but they are not saying that officially.— not saying that officially. you have been speaking _ not saying that officially. you have been speaking to _ not saying that officially. you have been speaking to people _ not saying that officially. you have been speaking to people in - not saying that officially. you have been speaking to people in kyiv i been speaking to people in kyiv tonight, what has been the reaction there? we tonight, what has been the reaction there? ~ ., ., ., there? we got here tonight from the donbas from — there? we got here tonight from the donbas from the _ there? we got here tonight from the donbas from the eastern _ there? we got here tonight from the donbas from the eastern front - there? we got here tonight from the donbas from the eastern front of - there? we got here tonight from thej donbas from the eastern front of the war. people in the city were literally gleeful. they were laughing, they werejoking, all the predictable humour about we expected yevgeny prigozhin to fall from a great height, but not that great a height, that sort of thing. the soldiers at the front who we were talking to, some of them had actually been fighting the wagner group in bakhmut and for them wagner are the people who tortured and murdered captured ukrainian soldiers, but who also were formidable battlefield opponents. tell me, do you think this debt is going to make any difference or make any impact on the war in ukraine? well, look, some of the pro wagner social media channels are carrying these doctorates against the people who have done this, that sort of thing. there is a lot of rumour out there aboutjamming of there about jamming of communications there aboutjamming of communications in one or two areas where the remaining factory units are, including belarus. some suggestions that planes have been sent to belarus to take the soldiers out of there. it is a few thousand people probably that we are talking about in belarus. of course, if you start to talk about other wards, for example those in central africa, in mali, the central african republic, the situation in niger, there are real questions there because the wagner infrastructure was still intact and allegedly part of the deal that putin has supposedly struck with him was that he would hold onto thatjob and of course thatis hold onto thatjob and of course that is supposed to be taken over by the russian intelligence military intelligence service, the gru, but nobody knows what will happen in those countries.— those countries. mark, thank you very much _ those countries. mark, thank you very much indeed. _ while his demise may not have been a huge surprise to many, his death has left a big gap in the group. did he fly too close to the song? a plane falling out of the sky. the burning wreckage found in a field north of moscow. seven passengers and three crew were on board. we don't know what led to the crash, but russia plasma aviation authority says yevgeny prigozhin was one of the passengers and ten bodies have been found. paramilitary leader, mutineer, former hot dog seller, former street level criminal heroes to become a player in the saint petersburg clan, president putin plasma in a circle, and even his personal chef. but he became a household name as a leader of the powerful wagner private military group. first a group of clandestine contract fighters propping up in security vacuums across africa and the middle east, leaving a trail of potential war crimes with propped up dictatorships. he potential war crimes with propped up dictatorships-— dictatorships. he gained recognition, _ dictatorships. he gained recognition, which - dictatorships. he gained recognition, which was i dictatorships. he gained i recognition, which was part dictatorships. he gained - recognition, which was part of his mystique, mussolini, fascist vigour, i am a strong guy, my troops and i are patriot and we can deal with russia's enemies. that meant he also started to have ambitions. most recently the _ started to have ambitions. most recently the wagner _ started to have ambitions. most recently the wagner military group became a key pillar of russia plasma war ever, spearheading invasions into ukrainian towns like bakhmut. but here on the battlefield was where yevgeny prigozhin began to turn his weaponry on his masters, becoming more audacious, a bellicose critic of russia plasma military leadership, making allegations of putin's top brass. always careful never to disparage president directly. but then injune exactly two months ago, he turned his trips around and began a march on moscow, dramatically taking over towns on the way, but aborting before reaching the gates of the city. the mutiny was over in a day and some sort of deal was done, or at least he thought. many others made prophecies that yevgeny prigozhin's days were numbered. i prophecies that yevgeny prigozhin's days were numbered.— days were numbered. i think it was set towards — days were numbered. i think it was set towards a _ days were numbered. i think it was set towards a deliberate _ set towards a deliberate assassination to send a message to anybody else who thinks, the opponents of putin, as the famous quote goes, who came to the king and mist have been dealt with. the future of the _ mist have been dealt with. the future of the wagner force is itself up future of the wagner force is itself up in the air. and we are once again reminded of putin's uninhibited decision—making. the reminded of putin's uninhibited decision-making. the undeniable truth is that _ decision-making. the undeniable truth is that he _ decision-making. the undeniable truth is that he remains - decision-making. the undeniable truth is that he remains in - decision-making. the undeniable truth is that he remains in power| truth is that he remains in power and the war in ukraine continues and he is all in and he will do anything politically, economically, denmark to win in ukraine and those who predicted that yevgeny prigozhin's antics would lead to peace in's demise were mistaken. if it seems likel the demise were mistaken. if it seems likely the mutiny _ demise were mistaken. if it seems likely the mutiny has _ demise were mistaken. if it seems likely the mutiny has been - likely the mutiny has been assassinated, it is a dramatic denouement of the wagner opera. i'm nowjoined by chris steele, who ran mi6's russia desk, and natalia pelevine, a russian opposition activist, and arkady ostrovesky, the russia editor at the economist. thank you all forjoining us. first of all, the most likely scenario, what do you think it is? itide what do you think it is? we obviously _ what do you think it is? we obviously don't _ what do you think it is? - obviously don't know all the facts, but there are some suggestions this might have been an accident, but it is most likely that it is revenge, it is most likely being done under putin plasma order or authorisation, it is his revenge. it is him trying to consolidate his personal power because yevgeny prigozhin's mutiny under way in which he responded to it did weaken it seems very odd in the eyes of the elite that yevgeny prigozhin was allowed to walk free in the investigation against him was immediately closed down after a secret deal was negotiated and this is putin reasserting his personal power, consolidating it. but at the same time undermining the idea of russia as a regular state, these are mafia tactics in what increasingly looks like a mafia state. chris: looks like a mafia state. chris gill, looks like a mafia state. chris gill. what _ looks like a mafia state. chris gill, what do _ looks like a mafia state. chris gill, what do you _ looks like a mafia state. chris gill, what do you think - looks like a mafia state. chris gill, what do you think that? l looks like a mafia state. chris| gill, what do you think that? i looks like a mafia state. chris gill, what do you think that? i know you have been giving evidence to the select committee on the wagner group. i select committee on the wagner urou -. . select committee on the wagner i rou . . ., ., , ., select committee on the wagner ”foul ., ., , ., .,, group. i am not sure that it was putin who _ group. i am not sure that it was putin who ordered _ group. i am not sure that it was putin who ordered this. - group. i am not sure that it was putin who ordered this. quite . group. i am not sure that it was - putin who ordered this. quite often it is done _ putin who ordered this. quite often it is done by people at the next rung _ it is done by people at the next rung down_ it is done by people at the next rung down and putin gives a nod and a wink _ rung down and putin gives a nod and a wink we _ rung down and putin gives a nod and a wink. we know with regard to yevgeny — a wink. we know with regard to yevgeny prigozhin in particular he was deeply unpopular amongst some of the really— was deeply unpopular amongst some of the really powerful people around putin _ the really powerful people around putin. people like the secretary of the security council. i suspect putin — the security council. i suspect putin may _ the security council. i suspect putin may have given it an nod and a wink ltut— putin may have given it an nod and a wink but the — putin may have given it an nod and a wink but the operation will have been _ wink but the operation will have been organised by others. tell me what ou been organised by others. tell me what you make — been organised by others. tell me what you make of _ been organised by others. tell me what you make of the _ been organised by others. tell me what you make of the debt - been organised by others. tell me what you make of the debt as - been organised by others. tell me what you make of the debt as well been organised by others. tell me i what you make of the debt as well of dimitri utkin? what does that due to the wagner leadership? it is obviously — the wagner leadership? it is obviously a _ the wagner leadership? it is obviously a significant blow because he was _ obviously a significant blow because he was effectively the founder of wagner. — he was effectively the founder of wagner, but it doesn't mean there are no— wagner, but it doesn't mean there are no other— wagner, but it doesn't mean there are no other senior wagner commanders who have strong reputations and so on. there are two in particular— reputations and so on. there are two in particular that we have come across— in particular that we have come across in— in particular that we have come across in our reporting. one is alexander— across in our reporting. one is alexander kuznetsov. they have played _ alexander kuznetsov. they have played a — alexander kuznetsov. they have played a significant role in particular in ukraine and also in some _ particular in ukraine and also in some of— particular in ukraine and also in some of the wagner operations in africa _ some of the wagner operations in africa and — some of the wagner operations in africa and syria.— africa and syria. natalia, on the oint africa and syria. natalia, on the point because — africa and syria. natalia, on the point because what _ africa and syria. natalia, on the point because what macro - africa and syria. natalia, on the point because what macro was i africa and syria. natalia, on the - point because what macro was saying that a lot of the elites around putin disliked intensely yevgeny prigozhin, but he must have had some backing somewhere from some elites to get as far as he did? ida. backing somewhere from some elites to get as far as he did?— to get as far as he did? no, i think ou're to get as far as he did? no, i think you're right _ to get as far as he did? no, i think you're right largely _ to get as far as he did? no, i think you're right largely on _ to get as far as he did? no, i think you're right largely on the - to get as far as he did? no, i think you're right largely on the support| you're right largely on the support of putin— you're right largely on the support of putin himself— you're right largely on the support of putin himself and _ you're right largely on the support of putin himself and the _ you're right largely on the support of putin himself and the elites - you're right largely on the support of putin himself and the elites we | of putin himself and the elites we are talking — of putin himself and the elites we are talking about, _ of putin himself and the elites we are talking about, regular- of putin himself and the elites we are talking about, regular elites, i are talking about, regular elites, not military— are talking about, regular elites, not military elites, _ are talking about, regular elites, not military elites, they - are talking about, regular elites, not military elites, they do - are talking about, regular elites, not military elites, they do not . not military elites, they do not have _ not military elites, they do not have much— not military elites, they do not have much to _ not military elites, they do not have much to say _ not military elites, they do not have much to say when - not military elites, they do not have much to say when it - not military elites, they do not i have much to say when it comes not military elites, they do not - have much to say when it comes to what _ have much to say when it comes to what yevgeny _ have much to say when it comes to what yevgeny prigozhin _ have much to say when it comes to what yevgeny prigozhin did. - have much to say when it comes to what yevgeny prigozhin did. whenl have much to say when it comes to i what yevgeny prigozhin did. when the unsuccessful— what yevgeny prigozhin did. when the unsuccessful mutiny— what yevgeny prigozhin did. when the unsuccessful mutiny happened - what yevgeny prigozhin did. when the unsuccessful mutiny happened to - what yevgeny prigozhin did. when the unsuccessful mutiny happened to ourl unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources— unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources tell _ unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources tell us — unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources tell us they— unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources tell us they were _ unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources tell us they were ready- unsuccessful mutiny happened to our sources tell us they were ready to . sources tell us they were ready to -et sources tell us they were ready to get rid _ sources tell us they were ready to get rid of— sources tell us they were ready to get rid of him _ sources tell us they were ready to get rid of him right— sources tell us they were ready to get rid of him right away- sources tell us they were ready to get rid of him right away but- sources tell us they were ready to | get rid of him right away but putin stopped _ get rid of him right away but putin stopped him _ get rid of him right away but putin stopped him i_ get rid of him right away but putin stopped him. i do— get rid of him right away but putin stopped him. i do think— get rid of him right away but putin stopped him. i do think it- get rid of him right away but putin stopped him. i do think it was- get rid of him right away but putin. stopped him. i do think it was putin who authorised _ stopped him. i do think it was putin who authorised this _ stopped him. i do think it was putin who authorised this assassination. largely— who authorised this assassination. largely because _ who authorised this assassination. largely because one _ who authorised this assassination. largely because one day— who authorised this assassination. largely because one day he - who authorised this assassination. . largely because one day he repeated over and _ largely because one day he repeated overand over— largely because one day he repeated over and over that— largely because one day he repeated over and over that he _ largely because one day he repeated over and over that he could - largely because one day he repeated over and over that he could never- over and over that he could never have _ over and over that he could never have traitors _ over and over that he could never have traitors and _ over and over that he could never have traitors and betrayal- over and over that he could never have traitors and betrayal is - over and over that he could never have traitors and betrayal is the l have traitors and betrayal is the worst _ have traitors and betrayal is the worst thing _ have traitors and betrayal is the worst thing for— have traitors and betrayal is the worst thing for him _ have traitors and betrayal is the worst thing for him in— have traitors and betrayal is the worst thing for him in the - have traitors and betrayal is the worst thing for him in the world j have traitors and betrayal is the - worst thing for him in the world and seeing _ worst thing for him in the world and seeing what — worst thing for him in the world and seeing what happened _ worst thing for him in the world and seeing what happened to _ worst thing for him in the world and seeing what happened to litvinenko who was _ seeing what happened to litvinenko who was poisoned _ seeing what happened to litvinenko who was poisoned and _ seeing what happened to litvinenko who was poisoned and those - seeing what happened to litvinenkoj who was poisoned and those people betrayed _ who was poisoned and those people betrayed where _ who was poisoned and those people betrayed where he _ who was poisoned and those people betrayed where he comes _ who was poisoned and those people betrayed where he comes from. - who was poisoned and those people i betrayed where he comes from. they were assassinated, _ betrayed where he comes from. they were assassinated, or— betrayed where he comes from. they were assassinated, or there - betrayed where he comes from. they were assassinated, or there were - were assassinated, or there were attempted — were assassinated, or there were attempted assassinations. - were assassinated, or there were l attempted assassinations. yevgeny prigozhin _ attempted assassinations. yevgeny prigozhin really— attempted assassinations. yevgeny prigozhin really embarrassed - attempted assassinations. yevgeny prigozhin really embarrassed him l attempted assassinations. yevgeny prigozhin really embarrassed him aj prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in_ prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in front — prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in front of — prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in front of the _ prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in front of the whole _ prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in front of the whole world. - prigozhin really embarrassed him a lot in front of the whole world. we | lot in front of the whole world. we sit right _ lot in front of the whole world. we sit right away. _ lot in front of the whole world. we sit right away, people _ lot in front of the whole world. we sit right away, people like - lot in front of the whole world. we sit right away, people like myselfl sit right away, people like myself and a _ sit right away, people like myself and a russian opposition, - sit right away, people like myselfj and a russian opposition, said he will not _ and a russian opposition, said he will not forgive this, _ and a russian opposition, said he will not forgive this, he will- will not forgive this, he will be eliminated _ will not forgive this, he will be eliminated sooner or- will not forgive this, he will be| eliminated sooner or later. but i also think this _ eliminated sooner or later. but i also think this was sending - also think this was sending a message _ also think this was sending a message to _ also think this was sending a message to people - also think this was sending a message to people in- also think this was sending a message to people in the . also think this was sending a - message to people in the country who might— message to people in the country who might want— message to people in the country who might want to make _ might want to make something similar~ — might want to make something similar. , ., ., , , similar. use of a deputy plasma hands as well. _ similar. use of a deputy plasma hands as well. we mustn't - similar. use of a deputy plasma - hands as well. we mustn't forget he is an utterly ruthless manner. he is. he is completely evil, he always has been _ is. he is completely evil, he always has been that _ is. he is completely evil, he always has been. that has _ is. he is completely evil, he always has been. that has manifests - is. he is completely evil, he always has been. that has manifests itselfj has been. that has manifests itself over the _ has been. that has manifests itself over the last — has been. that has manifests itself over the last year— has been. that has manifests itself over the last year increasingly - has been. that has manifests itself over the last year increasingly and i over the last year increasingly and with the _ over the last year increasingly and with the criminal— over the last year increasingly and with the criminal war— over the last year increasingly and with the criminal war that - over the last year increasingly and with the criminal war that he - over the last year increasingly and with the criminal war that he is . with the criminal war that he is waging — with the criminal war that he is waging at the _ with the criminal war that he is waging at the moment, whichl with the criminal war that he is - waging at the moment, which is why again as _ waging at the moment, which is why again as someone said _ waging at the moment, which is why again as someone said today that. again as someone said today that he is using mafia — again as someone said today that he is using mafia tactics. _ again as someone said today that he is using mafia tactics. and _ again as someone said today that he is using mafia tactics. and he - again as someone said today that he is using mafia tactics. and he has. is using mafia tactics. and he has done _ is using mafia tactics. and he has done throughout— is using mafia tactics. and he has done throughout his _ is using mafia tactics. and he has done throughout his rule - is using mafia tactics. and he has done throughout his rule and - is using mafia tactics. and he has. done throughout his rule and there is nothing — done throughout his rule and there is nothing stopping _ done throughout his rule and there is nothing stopping him _ done throughout his rule and there is nothing stopping him from - done throughout his rule and therej is nothing stopping him from doing it now _ is nothing stopping him from doing it now when— is nothing stopping him from doing it now. when one _ is nothing stopping him from doing it now. when one mafia _ is nothing stopping him from doing it now. when one mafia boss - is nothing stopping him from doing it now. when one mafia boss kills. is nothing stopping him from doing| it now. when one mafia boss kills a traitor _ it now. when one mafia boss kills a traitor or— it now. when one mafia boss kills a traitor or another— it now. when one mafia boss kills a traitor or another mafia _ it now. when one mafia boss kills a traitor or another mafia boss - it now. when one mafia boss kills a traitor or another mafia boss this i traitor or another mafia boss this is what _ traitor or another mafia boss this is what happens. _ traitor or another mafia boss this is what happens, he _ traitor or another mafia boss this is what happens, he is _ traitor or another mafia boss this is what happens, he is ruthless. traitor or another mafia boss this i is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets— is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid — is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid of— is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid of a _ is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid of a lot _ is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid of a lot of— is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid of a lot of my— is what happens, he is ruthless and he gets rid of a lot of my friends. . i wonder, does actually strengthen putin's position, does actually show putin's position, does actually show putin the way forward, as it were, that he has to be much more ruthless or that he doesn't allow anyone like prigozhin to get close to him? because he was taken in by prigozhin for a long time? that because he was taken in by prigozhin for a long time?— for a long time? that is a very good cuestion. for a long time? that is a very good question- i — for a long time? that is a very good question. i think— for a long time? that is a very good question. i think we _ for a long time? that is a very good question. i think we have _ for a long time? that is a very good question. i think we have to - question. i think we have to separate it into two. does it strengthen putin personally in the eyes of the elite and particularly amongst the security services? the answer is probably yes. he has done what a strong man is expected to do, he wiped out somebody who moved against him. but they're mutiny itself and the rise of prigozhin were very indicative of the decay in the russian state, of the degradation of russia as a state. putin from the beginning of his rule relied on informal actions. he stepped outside the rule of law completely in the last few years and the way in which he has been eliminated, again, showing russia to be less of a regular state and more of a failing state. in some ways, you could say that the mutiny on the way in which prigozhin has been dealt with pushes russia further into this, what in russia is called the time of troubles, when kind of murky turmoil, upheavalstarts, murky turmoil, upheaval starts, usually murky turmoil, upheavalstarts, usually associated and companies very often the failures in military operations. what i would say though, is with prigozhin gone, he was the biggest destabilising factor in putin's wore in the last few months because like any dictator, putin relies on sewing conflict and fanning rivalries amongst his elite for as long as those conflicts can be controlled and he can be the arbiter. what happened with prigozhin is that spilled into the open, prigozhin appealed to the general public, putin was forced to appeal to his people on television and the whole thing became uncontrollable very fast spinning tale of a political crisis and putin now trying to reassert control. a, now trying to reassert control. a couple of things but first, on the basis of people flying together, it's quite interesting, isn't it, there were very senior people on that one flight which would suggest to me they felt safer than they clearly were?— to me they felt safer than they clearly were? yes, i think that is true although — clearly were? yes, i think that is true although as _ clearly were? yes, i think that is true although as i _ clearly were? yes, i think that is true although as i say, _ clearly were? yes, i think that is true although as i say, some i clearly were? yes, i think that is true although as i say, some of. clearly were? yes, i think that is i true although as i say, some of the commandos— true although as i say, some of the commandos were absent, some of the ones i _ commandos were absent, some of the ones i mentioned earlier, which may or may— ones i mentioned earlier, which may or may not _ ones i mentioned earlier, which may or may not be significant. i think one of— or may not be significant. i think one of the — or may not be significant. i think one of the things he as it may strengthen putin's politically in the short term but the criticisms prigozhin — the short term but the criticisms prigozhin was making of the war in ukraine _ prigozhin was making of the war in ukraine and the campaign under way inwhich— ukraine and the campaign under way in which the — ukraine and the campaign under way in which the state was supplied in the army— in which the state was supplied in the army and so on were pretty valid. _ the army and so on were pretty valid, actually, and pretty truthful and echoed by a number of generals, some _ and echoed by a number of generals, some of— and echoed by a number of generals, some of whom have also been dismissed. so you have this irony that the _ dismissed. so you have this irony that the more putin values loyalty and the _ that the more putin values loyalty and the more he stamps out dissent or disagreement within the system, the less— or disagreement within the system, the less efficient russia runs as a country— the less efficient russia runs as a country and as a military machine. so i want — country and as a military machine. so i want to— country and as a military machine. so i want to ask you in a moment about what the russian people are saying about this tonight, i'm sure you have been speaking to your context. first, on the question of africa, because in mali, niger, the central african republic, there are wagner forces because that is where prigozhin was kind of allowed to hang onto some power. what happens, these are thousands of heavily armed men in the middle of a mess in these countries, what happens? i men in the middle of a mess in these countries, what happens?— countries, what happens? i think we have seen some _ countries, what happens? i think we have seen some signs _ countries, what happens? i think we have seen some signs in _ countries, what happens? i think we have seen some signs in the - have seen some signs in the reporting we have been receiving that other sort of paramilitary companies and organisations coming out of russia which are sensibly privately run, are trying to sort of recruit and take over some of those roles. there is a particular group called the rsb which we know has been approaching senior wagner officers in the last month and with a view to recruit them and carry on the work they were doing in africa and i think we will probably see more of this going forward. there are several paramilitary organisations that have been operating, notjust wagner, operating, not just wagner, including operating, notjust wagner, including a broad and i think we will see more of this in the weeks to come. . . . will see more of this in the weeks to come. . ., ., ., ,., ~ , to come. natalia, do you think this will have an _ to come. natalia, do you think this will have an impact _ to come. natalia, do you think this will have an impact at _ to come. natalia, do you think this will have an impact at all _ to come. natalia, do you think this will have an impact at all on i to come. natalia, do you think this will have an impact at all on the i will have an impact at all on the war in ukraine? i will have an impact at all on the war in ukraine?— will have an impact at all on the war in ukraine? i don't think so. i think they — war in ukraine? i don't think so. i think they sort — war in ukraine? i don't think so. i think they sort of _ war in ukraine? i don't think so. i think they sort of removed - think they sort of removed themselves— think they sort of removed themselves from - think they sort of removed themselves from the - think they sort of removed themselves from the war i think they sort of removed i themselves from the war front think they sort of removed - themselves from the war front when themselves from the war front when the mutiny— themselves from the war front when the mutiny happened _ themselves from the war front when the mutiny happened and _ themselves from the war front when the mutiny happened and it - themselves from the war front when the mutiny happened and it was i the mutiny happened and it was nowhere — the mutiny happened and it was nowhere in _ the mutiny happened and it was nowhere in sight _ the mutiny happened and it was nowhere in sight that _ the mutiny happened and it was nowhere in sight that they - the mutiny happened and it was nowhere in sight that they will i the mutiny happened and it was. nowhere in sight that they will be returning — nowhere in sight that they will be returning so— nowhere in sight that they will be returning so i— nowhere in sight that they will be returning. so i don't— nowhere in sight that they will be returning. so i don't think- nowhere in sight that they will be returning. so i don't think it- returning. so i don't think it really— returning. so i don't think it really will— returning. so i don't think it really will have _ returning. so i don't think it really will have that - returning. so i don't think it really will have that much i returning. so i don't think it| really will have that much of returning. so i don't think it. really will have that much of an impact — really will have that much of an impact. neither— really will have that much of an impact. neitherwill_ really will have that much of an impact. neither will it- really will have that much of an impact. neither will it have i really will have that much of an impact. neither will it have tooj impact. neither will it have too much _ impact. neither will it have too much of— impact. neither will it have too much of an— impact. neither will it have too much of an impact _ impact. neither will it have too much of an impact in— impact. neither will it have too much of an impact in russia. i impact. neither will it have tool much of an impact in russia. its huge _ much of an impact in russia. its huge news — much of an impact in russia. its huge news today. _ much of an impact in russia. its huge news today, obviously, i much of an impact in russia. its| huge news today, obviously, but much of an impact in russia. its i huge news today, obviously, but to be honest. — huge news today, obviously, but to be honest. i— huge news today, obviously, but to be honest, ithink— huge news today, obviously, but to be honest, i think prigozhin - be honest, i think prigozhin initially— be honest, i think prigozhin initially overestimated i be honest, i think prigozhin initially overestimated his l initially overestimated his popularity— initially overestimated his popularity and _ initially overestimated his popularity and the - initially overestimated his| popularity and the amount initially overestimated his i popularity and the amount of support _ popularity and the amount of support. among _ popularity and the amount of support. among the - popularity and the amount of support. among the elites, i popularity and the amount of. support. among the elites, the military. — support. among the elites, the military. that _ support. among the elites, the military, that was _ support. among the elites, the military, that was definitely i military, that was definitely overestimated _ military, that was definitely overestimated and - military, that was definitely overestimated and among i military, that was definitely - overestimated and among russian people _ overestimated and among russian people i— overestimated and among russian people. ithink— overestimated and among russian people. i think what _ overestimated and among russian people. i think what he _ overestimated and among russian people. i think what he thought i overestimated and among russian i people. i think what he thought was the port _ people. i think what he thought was the port was — people. i think what he thought was the port was really _ people. i think what he thought was the port was really people _ people. i think what he thought was the port was really people largely. the port was really people largely watching — the port was really people largely watching a — the port was really people largely watching a soap _ the port was really people largely watching a soap opera _ the port was really people largely watching a soap opera between i the port was really people largely. watching a soap opera between him and the _ watching a soap opera between him and the head — watching a soap opera between him and the head of— watching a soap opera between him and the head of the _ watching a soap opera between him and the head of the russian- watching a soap opera between him and the head of the russian armed| and the head of the russian armed forces _ and the head of the russian armed forces those _ and the head of the russian armed forces. those who _ and the head of the russian armed forces. those who genuinely, i and the head of the russian armed| forces. those who genuinely, there were _ forces. those who genuinely, there were some — forces. those who genuinely, there were some who— forces. those who genuinely, there were some who supported - forces. those who genuinely, there were some who supported his- forces. those who genuinely, there| were some who supported his whole notion— were some who supported his whole notion which — were some who supported his whole notion which he _ were some who supported his whole notion which he manifested - were some who supported his whole notion which he manifested over- were some who supported his whole notion which he manifested over a i notion which he manifested over a few months— notion which he manifested over a few months before _ notion which he manifested over a few months before the _ notion which he manifested over a few months before the mutiny, i notion which he manifested over a i few months before the mutiny, that he stands _ few months before the mutiny, that he stands for— few months before the mutiny, that he stands for the _ few months before the mutiny, that he stands for the russian _ few months before the mutiny, that he stands for the russian people, i he stands for the russian people, the russian — he stands for the russian people, the russian soldiers _ he stands for the russian people, the russian soldiers and - he stands for the russian people, the russian soldiers and all - he stands for the russian people, the russian soldiers and all that i the russian soldiers and all that stuff. _ the russian soldiers and all that stuff. and — the russian soldiers and all that stuff, and those _ the russian soldiers and all that stuff, and those people - the russian soldiers and all that stuff, and those people who i the russian soldiers and all that stuff, and those people who arej stuff, and those people who are really _ stuff, and those people who are really sort — stuff, and those people who are really sort of _ stuff, and those people who are really sort of felt _ stuff, and those people who are really sort of felt the _ stuff, and those people who are really sort of felt the same i stuff, and those people who are really sort of felt the same wayl stuff, and those people who are i really sort of felt the same way and did support — really sort of felt the same way and did support him. _ really sort of felt the same way and did support him, like _ did support him, like wholeheartedly, i- did support him, like i wholeheartedly, i think did support him, like - wholeheartedly, i think they did support him, like _ wholeheartedly, i think they were disappointed _ wholeheartedly, i think they were disappointed when _ wholeheartedly, i think they were disappointed when the _ wholeheartedly, i think they were disappointed when the mutiny i disappointed when the mutiny happened. _ disappointed when the mutiny happened, when— disappointed when the mutiny happened, when he _ disappointed when the mutiny happened, when he pulled i disappointed when the mutiny i happened, when he pulled back, disappointed when the mutiny - happened, when he pulled back, when he was _ happened, when he pulled back, when he was talked — happened, when he pulled back, when he was talked out _ happened, when he pulled back, when he was talked out of _ happened, when he pulled back, when he was talked out of going _ happened, when he pulled back, when he was talked out of going fully - he was talked out of going fully forward — he was talked out of going fully forward to— he was talked out of going fully forward to doing _ he was talked out of going fully forward to doing whatever- he was talked out of going fully forward to doing whatever it i he was talked out of going fullyi forward to doing whatever it was he was talked out of going fully i forward to doing whatever it was he intended _ forward to doing whatever it was he intended to — forward to doing whatever it was he intended to do _ forward to doing whatever it was he intended to do. so— forward to doing whatever it was he intended to do. so i— forward to doing whatever it was he intended to do. so i think— forward to doing whatever it was he intended to do. so i think they- forward to doing whatever it was he intended to do. so i think they sort| intended to do. so i think they sort of let— intended to do. so i think they sort of let go— intended to do. so i think they sort of let go of— intended to do. so i think they sort of let go of the _ intended to do. so i think they sort of let go of the idea _ intended to do. so i think they sort of let go of the idea of— intended to do. so i think they sort of let go of the idea of him - intended to do. so i think they sort of let go of the idea of him being i of let go of the idea of him being on their— of let go of the idea of him being on their side _ of let go of the idea of him being on their side back _ of let go of the idea of him being on their side back then. - of let go of the idea of him being on their side back then. so - of let go of the idea of him being on their side back then. so therej on their side back then. so there rcatty— on their side back then. so there really isn't — on their side back then. so there really isn't that _ on their side back then. so there really isn't that much _ on their side back then. so there really isn't that much and - on their side back then. so therej really isn't that much and among people _ really isn't that much and among people like — really isn't that much and among people like myself, _ really isn't that much and among people like myself, it _ really isn't that much and among people like myself, it is - really isn't that much and among people like myself, it is the i people like myself, it is the opposite _ people like myself, it is the opposite of— people like myself, it is the opposite of grief. _ people like myself, it is the opposite of grief.— people like myself, it is the opposite of grief. thank you all very much _ opposite of grief. thank you all very much indeed _ opposite of grief. thank you all very much indeed for— opposite of grief. thank you all very much indeed forjoining i opposite of grief. thank you all| very much indeed forjoining us. in tonight's first republican presidential debate in milwaulkie, and airing on fox, donald trump will be playing the part of the man who isn't there. while eight of the nine frontrunners work out how to keep him from dominating the discourse and, equally what to say about him, trump be on x, formerly known as twitter with his old sparring partner tucker carlson, both of them keen to best fox as the debate is airing. donald trump, facing 91 felony charges, and due in georgia tomorrow to turn himself in, is the way—out front—candidate. here's david. with trump absent from the fox debate, is there anything to see there? it debate, is there anything to see there? . debate, is there anything to see there? , ,., ., there? it will be quite important for the other _ there? it will be quite important for the other candidates. - there? it will be quite important for the other candidates. quite i for the other candidates. quite simply, this is their chance to show they belong in the race and with it in american politics, the ability to raise money, to stay relevant. let's look at a quick graph to show what they are up against, how much donald trump isjust dominating they are up against, how much donald trump is just dominating this contest so far. this is from the polling, from the website real clear politics. polling averages of republican voters, the pink line at the top is donald trump and that is how he's done sincejuly 2022 to the present day, the past year. you can see it has just gone up and present day, the past year. you can see it hasjust gone up and up, really. those vertical dotted lines that we have put on towards the right, they correspond with his legal difficulties. so every time he is arraigned or has some sort of legal problem, like a court case, that dotted line shows that actually he goes up in terms of his support among republican voters and goes down, you can see the green line, ron desantis, the florida governor, he's gone from 2a points before trump macro's first indictment to 14 today, quite a significant drop. it is extraordinary to think that without doing a single thing, donald trump could win this election. how do they deal with him in the debate? what pin can they use to prick his lead? , ., , , ., lead? the problem they have, there are two candidates _ lead? the problem they have, there are two candidates on _ lead? the problem they have, there are two candidates on the _ lead? the problem they have, there are two candidates on the stage i lead? the problem they have, there are two candidates on the stage in l are two candidates on the stage in milwaukee tonight who are going to attack donald trump, asa hutchinson and chris christie but the others, they are going to play it quite carefully. partly, maybe some of them think they might have a chance of being a running mate to donald trump but largely because trump is so popular with the republican voters who are going to decide this contest, is it any point going off them? they are far more likely to join trump in going after the main challenger, ron desantis, who according to donald trump are among his many crimes is he apparently eats pudding with his fingers, although the florida governor has strenuously denied that that is true. i5 strenuously denied that that is true. . . , ., strenuously denied that that is true. ., , ., ., true. is anyone actually going to -a an true. is anyone actually going to pay any heed — true. is anyone actually going to pay any heed to _ true. is anyone actually going to pay any heed to the _ true. is anyone actually going to pay any heed to the debate, i true. is anyone actually going to pay any heed to the debate, no| pay any heed to the debate, no matter how hard they try on stage? there is no doubt, the ratings will be lower for the debate. interestingly because elon musk has been pushing this on x. fin interestingly because elon musk has been pushing this on x.— interestingly because elon musk has been pushing this on x. on x, tackle carson interviewing _ been pushing this on x. on x, tackle carson interviewing -- _ been pushing this on x. on x, tackle carson interviewing -- tucker- carson interviewing —— tucker carlson interviewing donald trump. also the complication for those other candidates, even if they do land a singer and get some good coverage for it, it won't last for very long because tomorrow at fulton countyjail near very long because tomorrow at fulton county jail near atlanta, very long because tomorrow at fulton countyjail near atlanta, donald county jail near atlanta, donald trump countyjail near atlanta, donald trump is going to be turning himself in to be arrested and everybody will be talking about that tomorrow. fight; be talking about that tomorrow. any surrises be talking about that tomorrow. any surprises tomorrow, do you think? be talking about that tomorrow. any l surprises tomorrow, do you think? we have surprises tomorrow, do you think? - have been told he will turn up at this prison and be treated like every other arrestee, which means a mugshot and finger prints. interestingly enough, there is a space on the booking in form for his height and weight and those two numbers we know donald trump is a bit sensitive about. but we do know his legal team have already agreed a bond, so he won't be put in a cell. he will be allowed to go. his first court date is sometime, in georgia at least, sometime in the next few weeks perhaps. at least, sometime in the next few weeks perhaps-— at least, sometime in the next few weeks perhaps. thank you very much, david. social media is going to drive the us presidential election. there will be a blizzard of misinformation, memes, and deep fakes. will they matter at all? or will they be the only thing that matters? marianna spring, the bbc�*s disinformation correspondent, has been to milwaukee to meet voters, some of whom use some strong language. welcome to milwaukee, the home of cheese curds, beer and this week, the debate for the next republican presidential candidate. i'm here because i want to figure out how social media could already be shaping next year's election. to figure out what's happening online in us politics, i've been running undercover accounts belonging to five fake characters. they reflect views from across the political spectrum in the us and are based on data gathered by the pew research center. i gave each of them a profile on instagram, facebook, tiktok, youtube and twitter. theyjust like and follow content, they don't comment or message. they're called faith and flag larry, populist right britney, apolitical sideliner gabriela, democratic mainstay michael and progressive left emma. so far, i've only been able to see what my undercover accounts are recommended, exposed to and targeted with on social media. but now i want to understand how that kind of content could be impacting what people here in the us think about the next president and the next election. so i've brought together some real us voters to talk about it. so donald trump as a kind of hero... this panel reflects the different political positions of my undercover voters. do you get tired of the memes and...? no. he laughs. no. keep them coming. this is all funny to me, because it falls back into politics. i'm neither democrat or republican, i agree with the person whose views i get along with the most. no matter who was in the white house ever affected what i did in life. how does that imagery play out for you, seeing people say that donald trump is a hero or villain? seeing people sayjoe biden is a hero or villain? i think he's both, i think he's done some good things and he's done some bad things, allegedly. i do want to show you guys some of thejoe biden memes. falling up the stairs... why is somebody that i old running the country? i know. like, republican, democrat, it doesn't matter. _ no—one that old should be in charge of a country. i thejoe biden memes like, they get pretty good. does it make a difference? no. does it make me feel slightly better? like, yeah, this guy's running our country. here's a hilarious meme about him. it's funny at first and then you're like, "oh, shit, this guy's in charge." the memes are a little over exaggerated but there is some truth to it. i mean, joe biden is old and sleepy, he hasn't done a lot of positive things for the country. i'm not in favour of him at all. and donald trump did some great things for the country when he was president and i like his... his platform, his philosophies, but he'sjust a little bit too much of a narcissist and he's... he's probably not the best thing for the country. what's your reaction to the prospect that donald trump could be running for president again? i'd rather not, i'd rather see younger candidates on either side. so we need fresh ideas and fresh everything, really. i subscribe to myriad sites and all sorts of things and i'm seeing, i and i use this word purposefully, i'm seeing the same vitriol- on both sides, that i am, i for the first time in my life, i'm tired of politics. you watch tv, you see, like, whatever channel you're watching. they are all obviously super one—sided. you can't take the news, here at least, seriously. they are all full of shit. where do you turn, are there particular youtubers or particular podcasters or people that you trust for updates? i don't trust anybody. that you trust a bit more, than the media? thing are wild right now, like ijust kind of go off what i see. and like, all right, that might make sense or it doesn't. i'm very picky on certain information that comes from the news, whether it's local or somebody on facebook, twitter, insta. .. i don't too much use instagram because instagram isjust a picture, put little words in, you've got to run with it. facebook i can actually see who... credibility and stuff like that. it's all owned by somebody and i everybody has an agenda regardless. so it's important to remember that at the end of the day, i guess. i do you feel like you are conscious of knowing that you are being recommended certain things based on who you are and what you are interested in? yeah, i try to keep thatj in the back of my head. "trump won in a landslide, i told you they were corrupt, do you believe me now about the indictments?" to me, that was a sore loser move. you lost, let it go. it's done, joe biden won. i don't like to say that i but he won and we should just as americans, i we need to accept that. maybe trump's a sore loser. maybe he lost, maybe he got his ass handed to him. maybe they cheated. and maybe he didn't lose. how am i supposed to tell? i think we do a very importantjob educationally of teaching people, this is how the electoral process works, and then we see the meme, we see the social media that says "they stole!", we automaticallyjust go crazy off things we don't even understand. i think social media plays a big part on what's i going on with politics and the world in general because people - are going to social media to look for what they like to see - and run with it. i automatically, it's true to them, i if they don't know how to decipher i or go through that person's posts i when they update it, when they post it, the credibility of this author. this author could have a wackjob. and with the joe biden memes, i the trump memes, it's all hilarious. it's all politics and just like - you said, it comes back to reality. like, damn, these two people| are really running the country. everybody cares about trump and biden. they don't care about anything else in this country, that's it. just like which one of these two is more screwed up? you are supposed to vote for the people that you care about that feel the same way that you do and i don't think that's what's happening. i don't know what the lock is happening but it ain't right. and i think everybody at this table would agree with that. yeah, yeah. like, something's wrong. my main take away from that conversation is that a lot of the paneljust seemed quite exhausted by the polarisation they are encountering on their social media feeds. but nonetheless, it does seem to be shaping what some of them think about who could be president here next year and whether they like it or not, social media is likely to play a role in the build—up to the 2024 election. marianna in milwaukee ahead of tonight's debate. there will be something other than millions of midges swarming around loch ness this weekend, when the latest technology, above the water and underneath, will be deployed by experts and volunteers in the latest effort to discover whether there is a great monster in the loch. and monster hunters from all over the world will be able to watch a livestream, to catch the moment nessie stirs — if indeed there is a sea creature. it was back in 1933 that sightings of of a "dragon or prehistoric monster" were reporte in the scottish press, and since then nessie has never really gone away. the whole thing is a ruddy tourist trap! yeah, we might as well pack it in and go home. nessie was very big in the �*70s. she, or maybe he, depending on who you ask, was all over popular culture and the thought of her lurking presence made many a scenic but otherwise tranquil scottish boating holiday seem that bit more edgy. sadly, some of the magic was hijacked in when what we might call the evidence agnostic subcultures of the internet turned their attention to grey aliens and ufos. the idea of a giant monster hiding in a scottish loch seemed, well, a little bit too innocent. but are we in for a whopping surprise in loch ness? nessie has always been good for business. after a privately—owned tourism company purchased and reopened the loch ness centre, this coming weekend they, along with volunteers, are organising the use of surveying equipment which is said to never have been used in loch ness before. drones to produce thermal images of the water from the air using infrared cameras, as well as a hydrophone to detect acoustic signals beneath the surface. it is just possible that this is being done to boost scottish tourism rather than actually to find a giant water creature. but if it proves one thing, it is thatjust because a monster might or might not exist, it doesn't mean it's not real. i'm joined now by the general manager of the loch ness centre, paul nixon and the co—host of the �*stories of scotland' podcast, jennyjohnson. good evening. first of all, paul nixon, how much sophisticated is the technology being used this time compared to the amount of tech on the water? . ~ compared to the amount of tech on the water? a , ., , compared to the amount of tech on the water? a y., , . ~ the water? pick yourself back in the 19705 the water? pick yourself back in the 1970s where — the water? pick yourself back in the 1970s where we _ the water? pick yourself back in the 1970s where we had _ the water? pick yourself back in the 1970s where we had volunteers i the water? pick yourself back in the | 1970s where we had volunteers lining 19705 where we had volunteers lining the banks of the loch ness 19705 where we had volunteers lining the banks of the loch mess with long telephoto lenses and 35mm video films and skip forward today with our ultra tech savvy volunteers armed with their mobile phones ready to capture anything at the moment's notice. even the power in your pocket is so much greater, so we are well placed to capture something. so you have got sonar and you have got drones, infrared cameras and so forth. what is the response been like to the idea that we have got a kind of nessie marathon? the resonse kind of nessie marathon? the resnonse has _ kind of nessie marathon? ire response has been kind of nessie marathon? “113: response has been completely overwhelming. we had to shut down our registration forms for people turning up although keen spotters can still watch the webcams from the comfort of their own homes. we have touched all corners of the globe from new zealand, canada to america. we have got americans coming over this weekend just to help us hunt for the loch ness monster. jenny, is this not anything _ for the loch ness monster. jenny, is this not anything more _ for the loch ness monster. jenny, is this not anything more really - for the loch ness monster. jenny, is this not anything more really than i this not anything more really than what has become a very valuable national myth? 1 what has become a very valuable national myth?— what has become a very valuable national myth? i don't know, ithink it is art national myth? i don't know, ithink it is part of — national myth? i don't know, ithink it is part of the _ national myth? i don't know, ithink it is part of the adventure. - national myth? i don't know, ithink it is part of the adventure. people i it is part of the adventure. people would _ it is part of the adventure. people would he — it is part of the adventure. people would be coming to the highlands without_ would be coming to the highlands without nessie it is so beautiful, but i _ without nessie it is so beautiful, but i do — without nessie it is so beautiful, but i do think nessie is a gateway to the _ but i do think nessie is a gateway to the highlands for a lot of peopld _ to the highlands for a lot of people. it to the highlands for a lot of --eole. , to the highlands for a lot of neale, ,., to the highlands for a lot of --eole. ,., ., to the highlands for a lot of n-eole. ,. . . people. it is also a gateway drug for every kind — people. it is also a gateway drug for every kind of— people. it is also a gateway drug for every kind of fridge - people. it is also a gateway drug for every kind of fridge magnet l people. it is also a gateway drug| for every kind of fridge magnet or hat or whatever, it is an industry in itself. it hat or whatever, it is an industry in itself. , , in itself. it is, it is quite amazing _ in itself. it is, it is quite amazing to _ in itself. it is, it is quite amazing to see - in itself. it is, it is quite amazing to see as - in itself. it is, it is quite amazing to see as you l in itself. it is, it is quite - amazing to see as you drive along the shores— amazing to see as you drive along the shores of loch nessjust how many— the shores of loch nessjust how many businesses are set up catering to tourists — many businesses are set up catering to tourists. but if the tories are going _ to tourists. but if the tories are going to — to tourists. but if the tories are going to come, if this is what they remember, — going to come, if this is what they remember, it is no bad thing. paul, have ou remember, it is no bad thing. paul, have you ever— remember, it is no bad thing. paul, have you ever seen _ remember, it is no bad thing. paul, have you ever seen a _ remember, it is no bad thing. paul, have you ever seen a shadow - remember, it is no bad thing. paul, have you ever seen a shadow or- have you ever seen a shadow or anything of the supposed loch ness monster? . , anything of the supposed loch ness monster? ., , ., , ., monster? personally, no, but i have seen some — monster? personally, no, but i have seen some pretty — monster? personally, no, but i have seen some pretty compelling - monster? personally, no, but i have. seen some pretty compelling evidence supplied to us. some of it we can dispel because we know quite a lot about a common mistaken identities, and that is part of our mission, to help educate, but some of it is unexplained. help educate, but some of it is unexnlained-— help educate, but some of it is unexlained. ., ., unexplained. tell me about some of the stuff you — unexplained. tell me about some of the stuff you have _ unexplained. tell me about some of the stuff you have seen _ unexplained. tell me about some of the stuff you have seen that - unexplained. tell me about some of the stuff you have seen that there i the stuff you have seen that there is unexplained. the the stuff you have seen that there is unexplained.— the stuff you have seen that there is unexplained. the most compelling so far is the — is unexplained. the most compelling so far is the sonar _ is unexplained. the most compelling so far is the sonar heard _ is unexplained. the most compelling so far is the sonar heard in _ is unexplained. the most compelling so far is the sonar heard in 2020 - is unexplained. the most compelling so far is the sonar heard in 2020 by. so far is the sonar heard in 2020 by a local boatman which should something under the water roughly the size of a transit van. it is something under the water roughly the size of a transit van.— the size of a transit van. it is not there now- _ the size of a transit van. it is not there now. it could have - the size of a transit van. it is not there now. it could have been i the size of a transit van. it is not there now. it could have been a| there now. it could have been a transit van- _ there now. it could have been a transit van. it _ there now. it could have been a transit van. it could _ there now. it could have been a transit van. it could of- there now. it could have been a transit van. it could of course, l there now. it could have been a i transit van. it could of course, but where is the transit van now? it where is the transit van now? it could have gone down into the lock. there was some dna testing done and what were shown was dna of eels. it is perfectly possible that there is an eel population in loch ness. yes. an eel population in loch ness. yes, absolutely and _ an eel population in loch ness. yes, absolutely and dna _ an eel population in loch ness. us: absolutely and dna testing again an eel population in loch ness. 11a: absolutely and dna testing again is one of the boundaries of science which has been tried, but one interesting fact is we know things float on the water but no dna showed up float on the water but no dna showed up one they were being tested. jenny, i know you do a podcast about scotland, tell me just about how much of a draw this whole idea and mythology of loch ness i5 much of a draw this whole idea and mythology of loch ness is for people and what it means to them, this idea that there is something they simply don't know and can't understand. it don't know and can't understand. it is fascinating, the messages that we -et is fascinating, the messages that we get from _ is fascinating, the messages that we get from people all over the world asking _ get from people all over the world asking us — get from people all over the world asking us about