tonight with a stellar panel, anja manuel author of this brave new world, executive director of the aspen security forum, and also with us tonight lord kim darroch, former uk ambassador to the united states and author of collateral damage, britain, europe and america in the age of trump. good evening. ten people killed in a privatejet that was flying from moscow to st. petersburg telling us prigozhin was on the manifest will the flight was covering seven passengers and three crew. it was said to have crashed northwest of moscow. these are the pictures. there are multiple videos on social media that appeared to show the jet crashing. in the tracking date, load doesn't show with the plane departed. it does show it climbing to an altitude of near 29,000 feet before the data shows that dropping suddenly ending up shows that dropping suddenly ending up at zero feet. eyewitnesses said they heard to live bank shortly before hand. while the cause of this crash is not clear this man prigozhin had a long—standing feud with the kremlin and the general would have ample motive for events without the media channels linked to wagner suggest that russian air defence missiles brought the plane down. these are the pictures from the ground which show the wreckage on fire. the private plane is the one he often travels in. its tail number is extremely familiar to russian authorities as indeed it is to the international media who followed it recently to belarus with a flight radar tonight is reporting that there was another plane, perhaps a decoy plane that later landed in moscow. we have to be careful. suffice it to say it is a story shrouded in the usual kremlin intrigue. let us take a step back and consider whether started. the coup injune, prigozhin largely out of sight since then. he released a video earlier in the week in which he claimed to be in africa where his mercenaries have recently relocated. unclear when that video was taken and if he returned to russia sense it was shot. joining me now is christopher steele — former head of the russia desk at mi6. what in evening. we have talked many times before about prigozhin and why he was walking around and seamlessly within the machinery within the construct of the kremlin. not any more if the reports are true. h0. more if the reports are true. no, i don't think— more if the reports are true. no, i don't think this _ more if the reports are true. no, i don't think this really _ more if the reports are true. no, i don't think this really comes - more if the reports are true. no, i don't think this really comes as i more if the reports are true. no, i don't think this really comes as a l don't think this really comes as a huge surprise to anybody. shooting down a civilian aircraft might be rather odd over russia itself. because there is no plausible deniability involved. exactly who has done this, who is behind this isn't entirely clear. prigozhin as we discussed before had many enemies in the regime, typically high up in the security apparatus in the armed forces. i think it's quite strange that putin himself was apparently or somebody resembling putin it was at a live event at the time when this was announced. as usual with the kremlin it is like a riddle wrapped in a mystery. the kremlin it is like a riddle wrapped in a mystery-— kremlin it is like a riddle wrapped in a mystery. the obvious question is whether putin _ in a mystery. the obvious question is whether putin ordered _ in a mystery. the obvious question is whether putin ordered this - in a mystery. the obvious question is whether putin ordered this or. is whether putin ordered this or whether he stands to benefit from it. i can be directly link it to him? i it. i can be directly link it to him? ., �* ~' it. i can be directly link it to him? ., �* ~ ., him? i don't think you can at the moment _ him? i don't think you can at the moment i _ him? i don't think you can at the moment. i certainly _ him? i don't think you can at the moment. i certainly think - him? i don't think you can at the moment. i certainly think there l moment. i certainly think there won't be a piece of paper somewhere in the russian security system saying i hereby authorise the assassination of prigozhin. i think it is as likely to have been organised or ordered by somebody high up in the security apparatus, maybe with putin approval. we were told some weeks ago that there had been a contract taken out on prigozhin inside russia by senior people in the business community. he had a lot of enemies, very few allies inside the regime. and in a way it was inevitable and this would be his ending. but way it was inevitable and this would be his ending-— be his ending. but plenty of allies within social _ be his ending. but plenty of allies within social media _ be his ending. but plenty of allies within social media and _ be his ending. but plenty of allies within social media and the - be his ending. but plenty of allies i within social media and the country. he was seen in certain circles as a war hero. he was seen as the antidote to corruption, inefficiency, the failures of the russian military. i inefficiency, the failures of the russian military.— inefficiency, the failures of the russian military. i think many of his criticisms _ russian military. i think many of his criticisms rang _ russian military. i think many of his criticisms rang very - russian military. i think many of his criticisms rang very true. - his criticisms rang very true. obviously were echoed by military commanders in ukraine. who are particular supportive of him. it is quite interesting that sir rob beacon who was a commander down there last year and instilled all these defensive fortifications that ukrainians are having trouble breaking through in a counteroffensive was announced yesterday that he had been removed from hisjob in the yesterday that he had been removed from his job in the armed yesterday that he had been removed from hisjob in the armed forces. ironically in charge of i think the air security of the russian homeland. so effectively, it may be the case that all everyone and his allies are being taken out of the game. i allies are being taken out of the name. , ., allies are being taken out of the lame, , ., ., ., ., " allies are being taken out of the name. , ., ., . ~ allies are being taken out of the game. i 'ust want to look back at his game. i just want to look back at his lea game. i just want to look back at his legacy anyway- _ game. i just want to look back at his legacy anyway. i— game. i just want to look back at his legacy anyway. i know - game. i just want to look back at his legacy anyway. i know he - game. i just want to look back at his legacy anyway. i know he is l his legacy anyway. i know he is someone that clearly in yourjob you would've followed closely and from where he came, he wasn't always a mercenary and he was quite close to vladimir putin at one point. yes. vladimir putin at one point. yes, it's always _ vladimir putin at one point. yes, it's always funny _ vladimir putin at one point. yes, it's always funny for _ vladimir putin at one point. yes, it's always funny for me - vladimir putin at one point. i'eis it's always funny for me because vladimir putin at one point. ia: it's always funny for me because he once wrote a letter to the us attorney general suggesting that the us government should prosecute me for interference in the american elections at a time when he was running the internet research agency. he was a very complex character. a lot of people take for example he was a heavy drinker, apparently not, he was teetotaler. he was a businessman effectively to start with. he branched out into private military work there after and made a big fortune. one of the interesting things is actually, people focus on the fact that the army itself was trying to incorporate wagner into its own structures before this rebellion in june. actually perhaps a significantly indicated is the fact that prigozhin's company, the money from state orders had actually lost most of its business from the russian government in the run—up to that point, which is an indicator of where things were moving. let’s where things were moving. let's brin in where things were moving. let's bring in panel- — what do you make of what you seen today and where this leaves vladimir putin? i today and where this leaves vladimir putin? .. , , today and where this leaves vladimir putin? ~' , , .. , putin? i think chris is exactly ri u ht, putin? i think chris is exactly right. it's _ putin? i think chris is exactly right, it's too _ putin? i think chris is exactly right, it's too soon _ putin? i think chris is exactly right, it's too soon to - putin? i think chris is exactly i right, it's too soon to speculate putin? i think chris is exactly - right, it's too soon to speculate on any of— right, it's too soon to speculate on any of this — right, it's too soon to speculate on any of this. of course we've seen similar_ any of this. of course we've seen similar assassinations of enemies of putin_ similar assassinations of enemies of putin and _ similar assassinations of enemies of putin and the regime and a lot of mysteries — putin and the regime and a lot of mysteries of the last 18 months. a lot of— mysteries of the last 18 months. a lot of senior oligarchs, oil executives falling out of windows, having _ executives falling out of windows, having accidents, their children and wives— having accidents, their children and wives murdered so this would not be unusuat _ wives murdered so this would not be unusuat i_ wives murdered so this would not be unusual. i don't know where this leaves _ unusual. i don't know where this leaves putin. i think this may leave him a _ leaves putin. i think this may leave him a little — leaves putin. i think this may leave him a little bit stronger. the question— him a little bit stronger. the question i have is what happens to the wagner africa work which recently _ the wagner africa work which recently prigozhin has said he would focus _ recently prigozhin has said he would focus on _ recently prigozhin has said he would focus on that. and the influence of the wagner group in africa especially in the central african republic— especially in the central african republic but also propping up authoritarian regimes in exchange for lucrative mineral deals, does the russian government continue that art is that— the russian government continue that art is that all fall by the wayside? the timing — art is that all fall by the wayside? the timing we talked about is intriguing. we the timing we talked about is intriguing-— the timing we talked about is intrirauin. ~ . , ., , intriguing. we had these lonely -ictures intriguing. we had these lonely pictures of _ intriguing. we had these lonely pictures of vladimir _ intriguing. we had these lonely pictures of vladimir putin - intriguing. we had these lonely| pictures of vladimir putin sitting in a boxjoining a group of brics nations by video links while other leaders where there. he's under international arrest, he's weaker than his ever been put up the question is whether this cements his position at home.— position at home. yes, that's right. we do a lot — position at home. yes, that's right. we do a lot of— position at home. yes, that's right. we do a lot of speculating - position at home. yes, that's right. we do a lot of speculating in - position at home. yes, that's right. we do a lot of speculating in the i position at home. yes, that's right. j we do a lot of speculating in the us around russian public opinion, what the russian — around russian public opinion, what the russian people may be feeling towards _ the russian people may be feeling towards prigozhin and putin. i don't towards prigozhin and putin. idon't know— towards prigozhin and putin. i don't know anyone who has a good handle on it. know anyone who has a good handle on it when _ know anyone who has a good handle on it when you _ know anyone who has a good handle on it. when you talk to people in the street— it. when you talk to people in the street and — it. when you talk to people in the street and russia they are still broadly— street and russia they are still broadly supportive of putin. partly because _ broadly supportive of putin. partly because all they are getting is propaganda. you saw with the insurrection that prigozhin started a couple _ insurrection that prigozhin started a couple of months ago how many people _ a couple of months ago how many people very quickly rallied to his side _ people very quickly rallied to his side the — people very quickly rallied to his side. the first speculation would be this leaves— side. the first speculation would be this leaves putin stronger but it's too soon — this leaves putin stronger but it's too soon to— this leaves putin stronger but it's too soon to tell. i�*m this leaves putin stronger but it's too soon to tell.— too soon to tell. i'm sure it was 'ust too soon to tell. i'm sure it was just listening — too soon to tell. i'm sure it was just listening to _ too soon to tell. i'm sure it was just listening to alicia, - too soon to tell. i'm sure it was just listening to alicia, she - too soon to tell. i'm sure it was just listening to alicia, she was| just listening to alicia, she was talking about the report into the wagner group and telling us the government has not done enough to counter what it is doing on the african continent. do you think that the british government will be wise to what is happening here? and we don't know what it will mean for wagner but presumably they can't take their eye off the group just because prigozhin is dead. $5 take their eye off the group 'ust because prigozhin is dead. as others have said, this _ because prigozhin is dead. as others have said, this is _ because prigozhin is dead. as others have said, this is may _ because prigozhin is dead. as others have said, this is may be _ because prigozhin is dead. as others have said, this is may be the - because prigozhin is dead. as others have said, this is may be the least . have said, this is may be the least surprising — have said, this is may be the least surprising news _ have said, this is may be the least surprising news that _ have said, this is may be the least surprising news that we _ have said, this is may be the least surprising news that we could - surprising news that we could expect — surprising news that we could expect now— surprising news that we could expect. now it _ surprising news that we could expect. now it looks - surprising news that we could expect. now it looks as - surprising news that we could expect. now it looks as if - expect. now it looks as if prigozhin's _ expect. now it looks as if prigozhin's days- expect. now it looks as if prigozhin's days were - expect. now it looks as if - prigozhin's days were numbered expect. now it looks as if _ prigozhin's days were numbered since the moment— prigozhin's days were numbered since the moment he — prigozhin's days were numbered since the moment he launched _ prigozhin's days were numbered since the moment he launched that- prigozhin's days were numbered since the moment he launched that failed . the moment he launched that failed mutiny~ _ the moment he launched that failed mutiny~ i_ the moment he launched that failed mutiny~ i have — the moment he launched that failed mutiny. i have my— the moment he launched that failed mutiny. i have my doubts _ the moment he launched that failed mutiny. i have my doubts about. mutiny. i have my doubts about whether— mutiny. i have my doubts about whether this _ mutiny. i have my doubts about whether this means— mutiny. i have my doubts about whether this means any- mutiny. i have my doubts about whether this means any sort - mutiny. i have my doubts about whether this means any sort ofl whether this means any sort of dissolution— whether this means any sort of dissolution or— whether this means any sort of dissolution or break—up - whether this means any sort of dissolution or break—up of- whether this means any sort of dissolution or break—up of thei dissolution or break—up of the wagner— dissolution or break—up of the wagner group _ dissolution or break—up of the wagner group. this _ dissolution or break—up of the wagner group. this 25,000 . dissolution or break—up of the| wagner group. this 25,000 of dissolution or break—up of the - wagner group. this 25,000 of them. and they— wagner group. this 25,000 of them. and they sort — wagner group. this 25,000 of them. and they sort of _ wagner group. this 25,000 of them. and they sort of stuff _ wagner group. this 25,000 of them. and they sort of stuff they've been i and they sort of stuff they've been doing _ and they sort of stuff they've been doing elsewhere _ and they sort of stuff they've been doing elsewhere in _ and they sort of stuff they've been doing elsewhere in africa - and they sort of stuff they've been doing elsewhere in africa and - and they sort of stuff they've beenj doing elsewhere in africa and latin america. _ doing elsewhere in africa and latin america. you — doing elsewhere in africa and latin america, you have _ doing elsewhere in africa and latin america, you have to _ doing elsewhere in africa and latin america, you have to expect - doing elsewhere in africa and latin america, you have to expect that i america, you have to expect that to continue _ america, you have to expect that to continue the — america, you have to expect that to continue. the warnings _ america, you have to expect that to continue. the warnings we - america, you have to expect that to continue. the warnings we must - continue. the warnings we must continue — continue. the warnings we must continue to— continue. the warnings we must continue to be _ continue. the warnings we must continue to be vigilant _ continue. the warnings we must continue to be vigilant about. continue. the warnings we must i continue to be vigilant about what they are _ continue to be vigilant about what they are doing _ continue to be vigilant about what they are doing and _ continue to be vigilant about what they are doing and the _ continue to be vigilant about what they are doing and the rest- continue to be vigilant about what they are doing and the rest of- they are doing and the rest of the world _ they are doing and the rest of the world must— they are doing and the rest of the world must be _ they are doing and the rest of the world must be right. _ they are doing and the rest of the world must be right. but- they are doing and the rest of the world must be right. but what- they are doing and the rest of the l world must be right. but what were going _ world must be right. but what were going to _ world must be right. but what were going to do — world must be right. but what were going to do work _ world must be right. but what were going to do work about _ world must be right. but what were going to do work about what - world must be right. but what were going to do work about what you i world must be right. but what werei going to do work about what you are up going to do work about what you are up to— going to do work about what you are up to in— going to do work about what you are up to in africa — going to do work about what you are up to in africa and _ going to do work about what you are up to in africa and latin— going to do work about what you are up to in africa and latin america - going to do work about what you are up to in africa and latin america is i up to in africa and latin america is entirely— up to in africa and latin america is entirely not — up to in africa and latin america is entirely not a — up to in africa and latin america is entirely not a question. _ up to in africa and latin america is entirely not a question. if- up to in africa and latin america is entirely not a question.— entirely not a question. if the financial times _ entirely not a question. if the financial times reports - entirely not a question. if the financial times reports are i entirely not a question. if the - financial times reports are correct today that the group is going to be prescribed here in the uk as a terrorist organisation, what with that send to others and what difference would that make? i think that in terms _ difference would that make? i think that in terms of— difference would that make? i think that in terms of what _ difference would that make? i think that in terms of what difference - difference would that make? i think that in terms of what difference it l that in terms of what difference it would _ that in terms of what difference it would make. _ that in terms of what difference it would make, it's _ that in terms of what difference it would make, it's a _ that in terms of what difference it| would make, it's a good question. that in terms of what difference it. would make, it's a good question. it might— would make, it's a good question. it might preclude _ would make, it's a good question. it might preclude the _ would make, it's a good question. it might preclude the sort _ would make, it's a good question. it might preclude the sort of— might preclude the sort of thing that prigozhin— might preclude the sort of thing that prigozhin used _ might preclude the sort of thing that prigozhin used to _ might preclude the sort of thing that prigozhin used to do - might preclude the sort of thing that prigozhin used to do in - might preclude the sort of thing i that prigozhin used to do in legal processes— that prigozhin used to do in legal processes but— that prigozhin used to do in legal processes but beyond _ that prigozhin used to do in legal processes but beyond that - that prigozhin used to do in legal processes but beyond that i - that prigozhin used to do in legal processes but beyond that i can't see it _ processes but beyond that i can't see it making _ processes but beyond that i can't see it making a _ processes but beyond that i can't see it making a huge _ processes but beyond that i can't see it making a huge amount - processes but beyond that i can't see it making a huge amount of. see it making a huge amount of difference — see it making a huge amount of difference in _ see it making a huge amount of difference in terms _ see it making a huge amount of difference in terms of _ see it making a huge amount of difference in terms of in - see it making a huge amount ofi difference in terms of in western europe. — difference in terms of in western europe. i— difference in terms of in western europe. idoubt— difference in terms of in western europe, i doubt others— difference in terms of in western europe, i doubt others will- difference in terms of in westernl europe, i doubt others will follow us in _ europe, i doubt others will follow us in this — europe, i doubt others will follow us in this im— europe, i doubt others will follow us in this. i'm not— europe, i doubt others will follow us in this. i'm not sure _ us in this. i'm not sure whether it's prescribed _ us in this. i'm not sure whether it's prescribed in _ us in this. i'm not sure whether it's prescribed in america - us in this. i'm not sure whether it's prescribed in america or. us in this. i'm not sure whether| it's prescribed in america or not but we — it's prescribed in america or not but we are — it's prescribed in america or not but we are from _ it's prescribed in america or not but we are from the _ it's prescribed in america or not but we are from the united - it's prescribed in america or not i but we are from the united states in a different— but we are from the united states in a different place _ but we are from the united states in a different place in— but we are from the united states in a different place in europe _ but we are from the united states in a different place in europe is - but we are from the united states in a different place in europe is from i a different place in europe is from a different place in europe is from a different— a different place in europe is from a different place _ a different place in europe is from a different place with _ a different place in europe is from a different place with the - a different place in europe is from a different place with the will - a different place in europe is from a different place with the will i - a different place with the will i know — a different place with the will i know you _ a different place with the will i know you look _ a different place with the will i know you look closely - a different place with the will i know you look closely at - a different place with the will i know you look closely at the i a different place with the will i - know you look closely at the report that they _ know you look closely at the report that they can — know you look closely at the report that they can put— know you look closely at the report that they can put together. - know you look closely at the report that they can put together. iinihaltl that they can put together. what can ou sa that they can put together. what can you say about _ that they can put together. what can you say about the — that they can put together. what can you say about the way _ that they can put together. what can you say about the way the _ that they can put together. what can you say about the way the group - that they can put together. what can you say about the way the group is i you say about the way the group is operating since the pool. and how instrumental it is your funding operations in ukraine? i instrumental it is your funding operations in ukraine?- instrumental it is your funding operations in ukraine? i think it's a very confused _ operations in ukraine? i think it's a very confused picture _ operations in ukraine? i think it's a very confused picture for - operations in ukraine? i think it's a very confused picture for what i operations in ukraine? i think it's l a very confused picture for what we are being told. some have gone home, some have gone to belarus, others have seem to bid deployed into africa. the fact is it wasn'tjust prigozhin who may have been killed in this will also the guy who founded the group and the name of the group. so it is a disparate largely criminal group at the end of the day which is spread around many countries of the world including syria and libya. and which now has had its head chopped off. it's not at all clear what control is going to be brought to bear on these people. to be brought to bear on these --eole. , to be brought to bear on these eo le, , ., , to be brought to bear on these --eole. , . , .,, people. chris, really good to see ou. people. chris, really good to see you- thank _ people. chris, really good to see you- thank you _ people. chris, really good to see you. thank you for _ people. chris, really good to see you. thank you for coming - people. chris, really good to see you. thank you for coming on. i people. chris, really good to see. you. thank you for coming on. we people. chris, really good to see - you. thank you for coming on. we are going to keep our eyes on this developing story in russia. lots going on tonight and the united states. going on tonight and the united states. donald trump's former personal attorney, rudy giuliani, has handed himself in to jail in georgia. her the former new york mayor and close friend of the former president is one of 19 people charged in fulton county over allegations they tried to subvert the state's 2020 election. the one time prosecutor finds himself accused of 13 crimes, including racketeering. mr giuliani's bail has been set at $150,000. donald trump is expected to hand himself in on thursday. we are still some four and half months from the first iowa caucus. but if you are one of the eight republican candidates running against donald trump for the nomination that is not a very long time. particularly when you are polling numbers are rooted in the low single digits. tonight thought the field get their chance to stake their claim. it's the first republican debate in milwaukee, hosted by fox news. and yet the frontrunner will not be there. donald trump preferring to sit it out, ahead of his appearance at the fulton county jail. instead he will sit down with fox exile tucker carlson. an interview that will be aired on social media. only two of the eight candidates on stage tonight have willingly criticised the former president. but how do they eat into his significant lead in the polls, unless they are prepared to take him on directly? covering the debate for us tonight in wisconsin the bbc�*s caitriona perry. eyes suppose there is a real risk with donald trump not in the room that this becomes a circular shooting match. donald trump comes out of it all the stronger. that would definitely _ out of it all the stronger. that would definitely be _ out of it all the stronger. that would definitely be the - out of it all the stronger. tryst would definitely be the view from the former president campaign team. thanks to some of those of my pants but the other candidates tonight, they are hoping this is their moment to shine, that they of course will have to address the absence of donald trump. they're hoping to get that out of the way early to what they're describing is more substantial matters was that this is shining moment for the republican party. that first primary in iowa. if you can hear me some drums, electric guitars, there's a festival atmosphere here. there's a rally for the conservative party going on outside the party where the debate itself will take place. it is 43 celsius here when you factor in the humidity. one of the hottest days on records in milwaukee. that's contributing to that possible vibe with people looking to the candidates for them to tell the nation, they are republican voters just what they are about. some of the candidates and their teams and said today about this is them making a moment for themselves. when you look down the list of eight some would have zero name recognition with voters in the us. some governors, former vice president and of course a businessman vivek ramaswamy as well. but outside of the various constituencies they wouldn't have that same recognition. they are hoping for viral moments essentially tonight. that they can make themselves stand out from the pack. yes donald trump is way ahead in any poll you look at. but we are a long way from the primary and a long way from d—day as well. obviously the one person with name recognition is rhonda santos. the question is who is the donald trump alternative? ron desantis two i suppose if you want of the other candidates one of the first challenges is to become the person —— overcome the person running in second. does ron desantis think they've got it tonight? thea;r second. does ron desantis think they've got it tonight?— they've got it tonight? they do. that's definitely _ they've got it tonight? they do. that's definitely the _ they've got it tonight? they do. that's definitely the view - they've got it tonight? they do. that's definitely the view that i they've got it tonight? they do. | that's definitely the view that he will be in the absence of donald trump the any other attacks on policies. there are differences between ron desantis and some of the other candidates with them all accomplishing their own field and they will be determined to set that as well. i they will be determined to set that as well. . _ ,., , ., �* as well. i hear the symbols. i don't know whether _ as well. i hear the symbols. i don't know whether that's _ as well. i hear the symbols. i don't know whether that's for _ as well. i hear the symbols. i don't know whether that's for you - know whether that's for you or they're preparing for the end of the debate. i organised the bat. good to talk to you. for the people who watch bbc news katrina will be there tonight to bring you all the reaction to the debate. thank you very much. let's bring in larry sabatino. the founder and director of the centre for politics, read two university of virginia. formerfederal prosecutor now counseled to lawyers defending american democracy, a nonpartisan organisation. i said there were only two of the eight that have directly criticised donald trump and that is chris christie and mike pence and asa hutchinson, isuppose chris christie and mike pence and asa hutchinson, i suppose there's three. i'm guessing they will all be booed tonight part of me thinks chris christie might enjoy it. ichris chris christie might en'oy it. chris christie will * chris christie might en'oy it. chris christie will definitely _ chris christie might enjoy it. (ct 3 christie will definitely be booed. that's what he wants. he knows he's not going to be the republican nominee much less president. he's there to try and help stop donald trump because he sees the party off the cliff if in fact they read nominate donald trump, that may or may not be true. he's gotta find out tonight that the republican rank and file do not agree with him. mike pence is trying to play it both ways as he has consistently since the end of the trump/ pence administration as he refers to it. even though i think he is well—liked personally his unfavorable ratings are way out because so many republicans think he did the wrong thing onjanuary six. that is completely carlisle. he did exactly the right thing. he upheld the constitution. as far as republican rank and file he should have done anything he had to do to keep donald trump in power. if you want to take _ keep donald trump in power. if you want to take the _ keep donald trump in power. if you want to take the crown _ keep donald trump in power. if you want to take the crown you - keep donald trump in power. if you want to take the crown you have - keep donald trump in power. if you want to take the crown you have to take a swing at the king. i don't understand why they're so... clearly they know how popular donald trump is with the base but at some point if you're in it to win it you've got to go after him, have a new? yes but let me tell you _ to go after him, have a new? yes but let me tell you what _ to go after him, have a new? yes but let me tell you what they're - let me tell you what they're really thinking. at least i know one of them is and i think two. they expect trump to fall. they think the legal system will take its toll. after all he's been indicted in four places and there are 91 counts lodged against him. at some point, even with republicans who may agree with trump but might say to themselves, are we somebody who can actually get elected? then they will have an opportunity and they can also say to the trump voters, i never criticise our great president trump. what a shame that the liberals and the legal system and thejustice department and the biden administration have deprived us of voting again for donald trump. that is their idea of christmas future. it may never arrive and that's what they are betting on. thea;r it may never arrive and that's what they are betting on.— they are betting on. they are showin: they are betting on. they are showing loyalty _ they are betting on. they are showing loyalty in _ they are betting on. they are showing loyalty in spite - they are betting on. they are showing loyalty in spite of. they are betting on. they are showing loyalty in spite of it| they are betting on. they are i showing loyalty in spite of it all. including rudy giuliani who just turned up at the fulton county jail. $150,000 bail set and he's broke. he's broke. he's broke because the president doesn't pay for his legal bills. tonight is been told that he can't speak to co—conspirators, he can't speak to co—conspirators, he can't threaten anybody that's going to come forward as a witness. does that mean he can't talk to donald trump? i that mean he can't talk to donald trum - ? .. that mean he can't talk to donald trum? ~' ., , ., ., trump? i think it does mean that. however, trump? i think it does mean that. however. that _ trump? i think it does mean that. however, that is _ trump? i think it does mean that. however, that is a _ trump? i think it does mean that. however, that is a very _ trump? i think it does mean that. however, that is a very loose i trump? i think it does mean that. however, that is a very loose net| however, that is a very loose net because — however, that is a very loose net because there are always ways including — because there are always ways including through lawyers. the -roblem including through lawyers. the problem is _ including through lawyers. the problem is to _ including through lawyers. trig; problem is to pay his legal including through lawyers. trig; ptoblem is to pay his legal fees problem is to pay his legal fees rudy giuliani need some help from donald trump. we've had news today that they are going to have this big fundraiserfor that they are going to have this big fundraiser for the that they are going to have this big fundraiserfor the its hundred fundraiser for the its hundred thousand fundraiserfor the its hundred thousand dollars a ticket. it's quite extraordinary. does that perhaps breach the terms that the district attorney has set out? i suppose it all depends on how it's carried _ suppose it all depends on how it's carried out — suppose it all depends on how it's carried out. i think the amusing thing _ carried out. i think the amusing thing to— carried out. i think the amusing thing to me about it is what a generous— thing to me about it is what a generous man donald trump is as long as it's _ generous man donald trump is as long as its other— generous man donald trump is as long as it's other peoples money. he's not willing — as it's other peoples money. he's not willing pay for rudy giuliani the payments that he owes him. but she, i_ the payments that he owes him. but she, iwill— the payments that he owes him. but she, i will help you raise money with— she, i will help you raise money with other— she, i will help you raise money with other people. talk she, i will help you raise money with other people.— with other people. talk to me about the challenge _ with other people. talk to me about the challenge we _ with other people. talk to me about the challenge we are _ with other people. talk to me about the challenge we are getting - with other people. talk to me about the challenge we are getting from i the challenge we are getting from one or two of them. mark meadows particularly, a very important witness in this case, former chief of staff. he wants the federal court to set aside the arrest warrant and also for the case to be held in a federal court. what are his chances of that? and if he has a chance wise and donald trump doing that? the reason donald trump isn't doing it is that— reason donald trump isn't doing it is that trump's closest friend is delayed — is that trump's closest friend is delayed. trump has 30 days from the day of— delayed. trump has 30 days from the day of indictment to file his removal— day of indictment to file his removal and he will do that. that september 13. removal and he will do that. that september13. i have a piece removal and he will do that. that september 13. i have a piece now up on slate _ september 13. i have a piece now up on slate magazine which explains why mark meadows chances are in my view as a former— mark meadows chances are in my view as a former prosecutor remote. in trump's — as a former prosecutor remote. in trump's are — as a former prosecutor remote. in trump's are worse.— trump's are worse. right. we are talkin: trump's are worse. right. we are talking about _ trump's are worse. right. we are talking about the _ trump's are worse. right. we are talking about the debate - trump's are worse. right. we are l talking about the debate principally because it is tonight and we will focus on the fulton county jail tomorrow, no doubt. it would be nice if the republican candidates work to talk about some policy and how they approach russia, which is very pertinent at the moment, how they might approach the war in ukraine, what they think about bricks. i doubt will get any of that. i doubt will get rid of any of that too. the us political— will get rid of any of that too. tria: us political system is very different. i think you will see all of these candidates tonight try to break out by having some catchy phrase that's going to be played over and over again on social media. there is some subsidence stuff, i think it's important to raise to your audience in the uk and in the world how isolationist and in some cases hawkish this whole republican field. many of the republican challengers to trump want a complete head from the chinese economy, going in some cases even further than what president trump was saying. many support military action against drug cartels in mexico, whether it happens who knows? and there are very different postures and hazy policies towards the more it ukraine, ranging from we shouldn't be doing this at all and this is it in the us national interest, why were given ukraine's too much aid to were given ukraine's too much aid to we are not doing enough and we should be doing more. there is a real scramble and foreign policy no longer falls neatly into right and left. i think it's an important thing for the world to watch. i was lookin: at thing for the world to watch. i was looking at one _ thing for the world to watch. i was looking at one policy _ thing for the world to watch. i was looking at one policy that - thing for the world to watch. i was looking at one policy that the i looking at one policy that the former president has put forward and that was when he floated yesterday, a 10% tax on all foreign and ports against defending the us, two economy. that's protectionism on steroids. if republicans get go after that it's a pretty poor do, isn't it? ., , , isn't it? the former president wanted protections _ isn't it? the former president wanted protections while i isn't it? the former president wanted protections while in i isn't it? the former president i wanted protections while in office. i remember a wanted protections while in office. i remembera whole range wanted protections while in office. i remember a whole range of measures, a lot of them against allies. _ measures, a lot of them against allies, europeans against eu countries on steel and aluminium and a range _ countries on steel and aluminium and a range of— countries on steel and aluminium and a range of other things with lots more _ a range of other things with lots more threats behind them. and donald trump _ more threats behind them. and donald trump once _ more threats behind them. and donald trump once said publicly that in his view the _ trump once said publicly that in his view the eu — trump once said publicly that in his view the eu was worse than china. mostly— view the eu was worse than china. mostly to— view the eu was worse than china. mostly to trade issue. i'm sure he has lots _ mostly to trade issue. i'm sure he has lots of— mostly to trade issue. i'm sure he has lots of this stuff in his locker~ _ has lots of this stuff in his locker. as others had said, i hesitate _ locker. as others had said, i hesitate is— locker. as others had said, i hesitate is the only brit amongst the three — hesitate is the only brit amongst the three americans but i read that of the _ the three americans but i read that of the four— the three americans but i read that of the four trials he is facing two of the four trials he is facing two of them — of the four trials he is facing two of them are scheduled already for march _ of them are scheduled already for march and — of them are scheduled already for march and may put it and the prosecutors on the other two, on the georgia _ prosecutors on the other two, on the georgia case — prosecutors on the other two, on the georgia case and the six january case _ georgia case and the six january case have — georgia case and the six january case have asked for trials in january— case have asked for trials in january and february. this coincides ekactly— january and february. this coincides exactly with — january and february. this coincides exactly with republican primary season — exactly with republican primary season. now maybe the lawyers and all four— season. now maybe the lawyers and all four cases will be able to get delays _ all four cases will be able to get delays into the future. but ijust wonder— delays into the future. but ijust wonder how donald trump campaigns at all if he _ wonder how donald trump campaigns at all if he is _ wonder how donald trump campaigns at all if he is stuck in courtrooms basically— all if he is stuck in courtrooms basically for the first six marks two months of next year. it is a need to can _ two months of next year. it is a need to can pay _ two months of next year. it is a need to can pay because - two months of next year. it is a i need to can pay because the evidence of the last two months is he's got up of the last two months is he's got up to 210 points in public and polling. with every indictment his balls get higher. i polling. with every indictment his balls get higher.— balls get higher. i doubt that the trials occur _ balls get higher. i doubt that the trials occur when _ balls get higher. i doubt that the trials occur when the _ balls get higher. i doubt that the trials occur when the currently i trials occur when the currently scheduled _ trials occur when the currently scheduled. donald _ trials occur when the currently scheduled. donald trump i trials occur when the currently scheduled. donald trump is l trials occur when the currently i scheduled. donald trump is proven over the _ scheduled. donald trump is proven over the years _ scheduled. donald trump is proven over the years the _ scheduled. donald trump is proven over the years the very— scheduled. donald trump is proven over the years the very good - scheduled. donald trump is proven over the years the very good at i over the years the very good at manipulating courts. _ over the years the very good at manipulating courts. what's. over the years the very good at i manipulating courts. what's really significant — manipulating courts. what's really significant here _ manipulating courts. what's really significant here is— manipulating courts. what's really significant here is that _ manipulating courts. what's really significant here is that in - manipulating courts. what's really significant here is that in no - manipulating courts. what's really significant here is that in no way. significant here is that in no way trump _ significant here is that in no way trump would _ significant here is that in no way trump would be _ significant here is that in no way trump would be ok— significant here is that in no way trump would be ok with - significant here is that in no way trump would be ok with being l significant here is that in no way. trump would be ok with being on trial having — trump would be ok with being on trial having an _ trump would be ok with being on trial having an extended - trump would be ok with being on trial having an extended trial i trial having an extended trial during — trial having an extended trial during his _ trial having an extended trial during his peak— trial having an extended trial during his peak of _ trial having an extended trial during his peak of the - trial having an extended trial i during his peak of the republican primary— during his peak of the republican primary season _ during his peak of the republican primary season. this _ during his peak of the republican primary season. this causes i primary season. this causes republican— primary season. this causes republican voters— primary season. this causes republican voters to - primary season. this causes republican voters to rally. primary season. this causes i republican voters to rally around him _ republican voters to rally around him they — republican voters to rally around him. they think— republican voters to rally around him. they think all— republican voters to rally around him. they think all of— republican voters to rally around him. they think all of this - republican voters to rally around him. they think all of this is i him. they think all of this is political _ him. they think all of this is political. trump— him. they think all of this is political. trump did - him. they think all of this is political. trump did nothing| him. they think all of this is - political. trump did nothing wrong according — political. trump did nothing wrong according to — political. trump did nothing wrong according to them, _ political. trump did nothing wrong according to them, did _ political. trump did nothing wrong according to them, did nothing i according to them, did nothing wrong — according to them, did nothing wrong they— according to them, did nothing wrong they are _ according to them, did nothing wrong. they are listening i according to them, did nothing wrong. they are listening to i according to them, did nothing i wrong. they are listening to what trump _ wrong. they are listening to what trump is — wrong. they are listening to what trump is claiming. _ wrong. they are listening to what trump is claiming. the _ wrong. they are listening to what trump is claiming. the more i wrong. they are listening to what trump is claiming. the more he. wrong. they are listening to what| trump is claiming. the more he is persecuted — trump is claiming. the more he is persecuted the _ trump is claiming. the more he is persecuted the more _ trump is claiming. the more he is persecuted the more they - trump is claiming. the more he is persecuted the more they are i persecuted the more they are inclined — persecuted the more they are inclined to— persecuted the more they are inclined to go _ persecuted the more they are inclined to go out _ persecuted the more they are inclined to go out invite - persecuted the more they are inclined to go out invite for i persecuted the more they are i inclined to go out invite for him and maybe _ inclined to go out invite for him and maybe bring _ inclined to go out invite for him and maybe bring five _ inclined to go out invite for him and maybe bring five friends i inclined to go out invite for him i and maybe bring five friends with them _ and maybe bring five friends with them. �* , ., ., and maybe bring five friends with them. �*, ., ., , ,, , them. there's one thing that strikes me, ou them. there's one thing that strikes me. you once _ them. there's one thing that strikes me, you once described _ them. there's one thing that strikes me, you once described president i me, you once described president trump and his administration is inapt and uniquely dysfunctional, for which of course you paid with yourjob. i wonder where you still in thatjob watching something like the spectacle tonight what you would be telling the british government about future us relations were he to return. $5 about future us relations were he to return. �* , about future us relations were he to return. r , ., ., return. as i said, eu and china it said nato — return. as i said, eu and china it said nato was _ return. as i said, eu and china it said nato was a _ return. as i said, eu and china it said nato was a scam _ return. as i said, eu and china it said nato was a scam and - return. as i said, eu and china it said nato was a scam and which | said nato was a scam and which europe got to pay their defence. this kind of stuff. it would be a different world if he were to get a second term. i also read a lot, some may be about how much more prepared for a government he will be much to enact this time around. how much stronger a team he has with him and how they are for he believes he can actually this time deliver a lot of the objectives that he talked about in his 2016 campaign but failed to deliver. i think it's quite an alarming prospect for the rest of the west, for europe, for the uk if trump comes back. but of course as your panelist have pointed out he is way, way ahead in the republican opinion polls. if he wins the nomination and it comes down to a two horse race and joe biden will be 85 by then. physically he looks quite frail, you have to say that. what kind of races it then? mi quite frail, you have to say that. what kind of races it then? all of this we will _ what kind of races it then? all of this we will pour _ what kind of races it then? all of this we will pour over in - what kind of races it then? all of this we will pour over in the i what kind of races it then? all of this we will pour over in the month ahead, no doubt. thank you for your company thank you. prigozhin 's name is listed alongside 600 passengers and three crew members, let's bring in lou osborne who is researcher for the group all eyes on wagner. operations around the world which we discussed tonight. your reaction first of all tonight. your reaction first of all to the news from the russian authorities that he was on board this plane, what do you think this means for the wagner group and its operations? i means for the wagner group and its oerations? ~ means for the wagner group and its operations?— means for the wagner group and its 0 erations? ~' ~ ., ., , operations? i think the wagner group is a bit in trouble _ operations? i think the wagner group is a bit in trouble to _ operations? i think the wagner group is a bit in trouble to continue - is a bit in trouble to continue because not only prigozhin was in it, but his second—in—command who is in charge of military operation and a number of key person like head of security. managing one of the biggest company of people for wagner operation so it's a very big blow to the structure. operation so it's a very big blow to the structure-— the structure. how is it possible that all these _ the structure. how is it possible that all these people _ the structure. how is it possible that all these people who - the structure. how is it possible that all these people who must| that all these people who must surely have taken personal security into consideration were all travelling on the same plane? 50 travelling on the same plane? sr that's going to be i think a case, it's quite well known, never do that in the corporate world,

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