bit of a different sort of day. we will see the arrival of spells of rain for some southern areas where we haven't seen rain for a while. further showers to come particularly across scotland, but in between some sunshine here and there. the reasonably light winds for most of us on thursday. still warm in the south—east but high teens elsewhere and it looks like the cooling trend will continue through the end of the week and into the weekend. thanks, sarah. and that's it from us. newsnight with kirsty wark is just getting under way on bbc two. the news continues here on bbc one as it's time to join our teams as many as 1,500 artefects worth millions, and calls for the director to resign. how did the thefts happen again and again? this is not a good night at the museum. how could theft on such a scale happen? do you think their position is untenable? not really, ithink do you think their position is untenable? not really, i think if i had been — untenable? not really, i think if i had been in those positions i would have gone — had been in those positions i would have gone virtually immediately. tonight we'rejoined by charles suamerez smith, the former head of three national art insitutions, and christos tsirogiannis, unesco's expert on the trafficking of illicit antiquities. also tonight, brazil, russia, india, china and south africa. at a summit in johennesburg, the five brics countries push for expansion, and challenge what they see as the g7�*s hegemony. so what is their plan? we'll be speaking to a former china analyst for the us department of defense, a south african international security expert who's at the summit and the host of the spectator�*s chinese whispers podcast. also, good news—night — unemployment figures have confounded expectation here, in the us and in europe. and more than 100 actors including gemma arterton and bill nighy have signed up to the green rider, instead of limos and learjets actors want studios to sign up to trains and electric cars to help reduce the film industry's carbon footprint. will it catch on? the actor and activist fahinti balogun from dune and i may destroy you is here. good evening. imagine having so many rare and invaluable objects in your possession under the gaze of curators, world experts, security personnel and cameras, most of them in storerooms, and failing to spot that more than 1,500 objects worth millions and of course what has actually happened means that the reputational damage is far worse. i think the story of objects... there is no clear evidence of a cover—up but the museum's director hartwick fisher is now under intense pressure. he had already announced he is standing down next year. i think this is a matter where they should just get down now and a temporary director should be put in place. so you think the director of the museum should now resign? yes. the british museum will not say how many items have been lost or stolen or indeed their total value. perhaps because they don't really know. reports suggest more than 1500 artefacts are now missing. the results, not just historical damage, but reputational damage too. protecting the collection is particularly challenging because of its vast scale. the british museum has around 8 million artefacts in the estimate is that may be 1% of those are on public display. and they have alarms, and cabinets, and all the things we associate with the museum security. however, when they are behind the scenes in storage, that's where, i think, the vulnerability is really been able to set in here. what could the potential motivations before the person committing this sort of crime? of course, financial gain is going to register highly but we also note that some individuals, it simply opportunity. they realise how easy it is to steal something. usually starts in a very small and then, if they are not apprehended, it can escalate really quickly. there is a really interesting aspect to this psychologically and that is a justification. maybe an individual says no one is appreciating the beauty and value in storage so i will appreciate them in a way that other people do not. possibly another justification for someone i did logically motivated as they may say these items have been stolen anyway. they may say these items have been stolen anyway-— stolen anyway. because the missing items are thought _ stolen anyway. because the missing items are thought to _ stolen anyway. because the missing items are thought to be _ stolen anyway. because the missing items are thought to be small, - items are thought to be small, jewellery or engravings, many may be impossible to recover. if jewellery or engravings, many may be impossible to recover.— impossible to recover. if you steal the rosetta _ impossible to recover. if you steal the rosetta stone _ impossible to recover. if you steal the rosetta stone it _ impossible to recover. if you steal the rosetta stone it is _ impossible to recover. if you steal the rosetta stone it is hard - impossible to recover. if you steal the rosetta stone it is hard to - the rosetta stone it is hard to sell, everyone knows these pieces so the best thing to do if you have a criminal mind is to steal small objects, gold or silva, jewellery, because you can melt down or dismantle a piece ofjewellery. and then these things disappear on the black market and sometimes even on the legal market.— black market and sometimes even on the legal market. we may never know the legal market. we may never know the true scale — the legal market. we may never know the true scale of _ the legal market. we may never know the true scale of the _ the legal market. we may never know the true scale of the damage - the legal market. we may never know the true scale of the damage to - the legal market. we may never know the true scale of the damage to this . the true scale of the damage to this priceless collection. but tonight the largest museum in the world is in crisis. with me now charles saumarez smith, former director of the national gallery, the national portait gallery and chief executive of the royal academy of arts. and christos tsirogiannis, archaeologist and antiquities trafficking expert who works with unesco. and we did of course ask the british museum to come on — they declined and said they cannot comment further while a police investigation is ongoing. just how big a crisis is this? it sounds pretty disastrous. the first objects which disappear disappeared in 2016 and it was reported injune twenty20. it seems that it has been known about for quite some time and if it is on the scale 1500 objects thatis if it is on the scale 1500 objects that is the equivalent of one per day over the last five years. it is a massive scale and that is terrible for the museum. i5 a massive scale and that is terrible for the museum. is it damaging the reutation for the museum. is it damaging the reputation of _ for the museum. is it damaging the reputation of the _ for the museum. is it damaging the reputation of the british _ for the museum. is it damaging the reputation of the british museum i for the museum. is it damaging the i reputation of the british museum and just museums in general that this can happen? everyone will be looking at their collections and asking what has gone. at their collections and asking what has one. , ., at their collections and asking what has one. i. , ., ., ., ~' at their collections and asking what has one. ,, , ., ., ., ~ ., has gone. everyone should look at their own collections _ has gone. everyone should look at their own collections and - has gone. everyone should look at| their own collections and especially their own collections and especially the british museum because i would not be _ the british museum because i would not be surprised if they find themselves amongst the museum community, once they undertake this crosschecking with inventory is, that there — crosschecking with inventory is, that there could be unfortunate surprises — that there could be unfortunate surprises. but that there could be unfortunate surrises. �* �* , ~ , surprises. but the british museum is this receptacle _ surprises. but the british museum is this receptacle of— surprises. but the british museum is this receptacle of extraordinary - this receptacle of extraordinary things on the subject of programmes about what was in the collection, the idea that at least 15,000 artefacts were removed and no one saw it over this period of time, what make of it?— saw it over this period of time, what make of it? to be honest, museums _ what make of it? to be honest, museums do — what make of it? to be honest, museums do checks _ what make of it? to be honest, museums do checks every - what make of it? to be honest, museums do checks every ten i what make of it? to be honest, - museums do checks every ten years, the national audit office will check quite routinely on behalf of the government and generally when they do these checks they discovered that one or two things are missing for one or two things are missing for one reason or another often unknown. but this is on a scale which i've never heard about and the implication is that a single curator was able to do it over a long period of time without it being known. even in spite of the fact that someone in the trade, i mean the antiquities trade is quite small and specialist but someone seems to have pitched up very fast because he was using his twitter handle in order to sell them on ebay. and this guy instantly identified who it was likely to be. the british museum said nothing to see here. bi the british museum said nothing to see here. �* ., ., ., ., see here. at that point all alarm bells should _ see here. at that point all alarm bells should have _ see here. at that point all alarm bells should have rung - see here. at that point all alarm bells should have rung loudly. i bells should have rung loudly. when material starts _ bells should have rung loudly. when material starts to _ bells should have rung loudly. when material starts to appear _ bells should have rung loudly. when material starts to appear on - bells should have rung loudly. when material starts to appear on ebay of such extraordinary quality, is that what you and your team look for all the time? ~ �* ., ., ~' what you and your team look for all the time? ~ �* ., ., ~ ., the time? we're looking at the electronic— the time? we're looking at the electronic market _ the time? we're looking at the electronic market as _ the time? we're looking at the electronic market as well, - the time? we're looking at the electronic market as well, the | electronic market as well, the internet — electronic market as well, the internet and so on. museums, private collectors. _ internet and so on. museums, private collectors, dealers, everything. and we're _ collectors, dealers, everything. and we're not _ collectors, dealers, everything. and we're not surprised by and will not be surprised if the provenance with which _ be surprised if the provenance with which these objects appear for sale are completely fabricated as usually happens _ are completely fabricated as usually happens with all kinds of stolen antiquities whether they would duck up antiquities whether they would duck up illicitly _ antiquities whether they would duck up illicitly or stolen from archaeological collections. one of the extraordinary _ archaeological collections. one of the extraordinary things, - archaeological collections. one of the extraordinary things, one - archaeological collections. one of. the extraordinary things, one roman piece which apparently is worth up to £50,000, was on ebay for £40 and no takers. to think that people were smelling a rat? i no takers. to think that people were smelling a rat?— smelling a rat? i think this particular— smelling a rat? i think this particular object _ smelling a rat? i think this particular object may - smelling a rat? i think this particular object may be i smelling a rat? i think this - particular object may be key for solving — particular object may be key for solving at — particular object may be key for solving at least part if not the case — solving at least part if not the case itself. the fact that it went for such — case itself. the fact that it went for such a — case itself. the fact that it went for such a small amount of money may explain _ for such a small amount of money may explain the _ for such a small amount of money may explain the pattern and not maybe the motive may not necessarily have been financial.— been financial. so it might have been financial. so it might have been another _ been financial. so it might have been another motive _ been financial. so it might have been another motive but - been financial. so it might have l been another motive but charles, been financial. so it might have - been another motive but charles, you are keyed into all the national art institutions, can you imagine or have you heard of anything like this not quite on the scale but even vaguely? not quite on the scale but even vauuel ? ., , ~' ., not quite on the scale but even vauuel ? ., , ~ ., , vaguely? the only thing i know is in the 1950s vaguely? the only thing i know is in the 15350s a — vaguely? the only thing i know is in the 1950s a curator— vaguely? the only thing i know is in the 1950s a curator at _ vaguely? the only thing i know is in the 1950s a curator at the _ vaguely? the only thing i know is in the 1950s a curator at the victoria l the 19505 a curator at the victoria and albert died and they discovered that his house was full of things so it is not totally unheard of the type of mentality which is interested passionate about object5 interested passionate about objects interested passionate about objects in some way invites and starts doing things which are totally reprehensible.- things which are totally reprehensible. things which are totally rerehensible. �* ., ., ., reprehensible. but now we have a situation in _ reprehensible. but now we have a situation in the _ reprehensible. but now we have a situation in the british _ reprehensible. but now we have a situation in the british museum i situation in the british museum where the present director is due to stand out in 2024, george osborne i5 chair of the trustees but yet the directory still there and you heard a call for the director to go. to think that that is a sensible to happen? think that that is a sensible to ha--en? . .~ think that that is a sensible to ha en? ., think that that is a sensible to hauen? ., , ., , happen? hardwick has resigned and is auoin happen? hardwick has resigned and is going shortly — happen? hardwick has resigned and is going shortly so _ happen? hardwick has resigned and is going shortly so i do _ happen? hardwick has resigned and is going shortly so i do not _ happen? hardwick has resigned and is going shortly so i do not think - happen? hardwick has resigned and is going shortly so i do not think it - going shortly so i do not think it is more than a symbolic act now but in my view that something needs to have a much faster than the trusty inquiry. george osborne has said there will be a former retired trustee who will report in a year, but he needs to report in a week. it is ironic in a way that this has happened to the british museum which is someplace that safeguards i5 someplace that safeguards antiquities but itself has antiquities but itself has antiquities because they were looted and plundered during colonial times and plundered during colonial times and obviously thousands of years before. fir and obviously thousands of years before. ., ., before. or even later and more recently- _ before. or even later and more recently. absolutely. _ before. or even later and more recently. absolutely. it- before. or even later and more recently. absolutely. it is - recently. absolutely. it is interesting because it seems that now they— interesting because it seems that now they are having even temporarily a taste _ now they are having even temporarily a taste of _ now they are having even temporarily a taste of their own medicine. for us in _ a taste of their own medicine. for us in the — a taste of their own medicine. for us in the research group everything unesco _ us in the research group everything unesco related, it will be interesting that the british museum will have _ interesting that the british museum will have to eventually face the argument that it was constant giving to the _ argument that it was constant giving to the countries of origin that are rightly— to the countries of origin that are rightly claiming back their cultural inheritance. find rightly claiming back their cultural inheritance. �* rightly claiming back their cultural inheritance-— inheritance. and we are the best lace for inheritance. and we are the best place for it _ inheritance. and we are the best place for it but _ inheritance. and we are the best place for it but now _ inheritance. and we are the best place for it but now we - inheritance. and we are the best place for it but now we know- inheritance. and we are the best| place for it but now we know they may not be because they cannot guarantee it will still be there. that was also an argument of the museum — that was also an argument of the museum and of private collectors saying _ museum and of private collectors saying you — museum and of private collectors saying you know, we are saving them try saying you know, we are saving them by acquiring — saying you know, we are saving them by acquiring them because otherwise they would be lost and here we are. so interesting to see how the museum will eventually and hopefully it will eventually and hopefully it will be — will eventually and hopefully it will be reacting, and hopefully some of these _ will be reacting, and hopefully some of these objects will be identified and will— of these objects will be identified and will have to face the same arguments. and will have to face the same arguments-— and will have to face the same arguments. but tonight people watchin: arguments. but tonight people watching may _ arguments. but tonight people watching may have _ arguments. but tonight people watching may have bought - arguments. but tonight people - watching may have bought something on ebay and realise that they have got something from the british museum. :: :: :: . , got something from the british museum. :::::: ., ., got something from the british museum. 1: i: i: .,, . , ., ., got something from the british museum. 1: i: i: . , ., ., ., museum. 2000 ob'ects, and one of the thins must museum. 2000 ob'ects, and one of the things must have — museum. 2000 objects, and one of the things must have a _ museum. 2000 objects, and one of the things must have a very _ things must have a very distinguished and important provenance and other things were in the catalogue and they were identified that way this steelers 5aw identified that way this steelers saw it on dealers would have looked up saw it on dealers would have looked up or recognised and identified it. so they are not insignificant. what so they are not insignificant. what ou think so they are not insignificant. what you think this _ so they are not insignificant. what you think this will _ so they are not insignificant. what you think this will do _ so they are not insignificant. what you think this will do to _ so they are not insignificant. what you think this will do to the morale of curators? i you think this will do to the morale of curators?— of curators? i think unfortunately it ma be of curators? i think unfortunately it may be symptomatic— of curators? i think unfortunately it may be symptomatic of- of curators? i think unfortunately it may be symptomatic of moralej of curators? i think unfortunately i it may be symptomatic of morale on the part of curators. the man thought to be, suspected to be behind this has been there for 35 years and has a phd and he must have entered... ~ ., ., ~ ., ., entered... we do not know who this erson entered... we do not know who this person is- — entered... we do not know who this person is. whoever _ entered... we do not know who this person is. whoever it _ entered... we do not know who this person is. whoever it is _ entered... we do not know who this person is. whoever it is i _ entered... we do not know who this person is. whoever it is i think - entered... we do not know who this person is. whoever it is i think onel person is. whoever it is i think one thin that person is. whoever it is i think one thing that the _ person is. whoever it is i think one thing that the return trustee - thing that the return trustee will not be investigating his demoralisation but it is possible but underneath that there is a kind of sense of demoralisation. discontent. ernst & young had been employed to give the best possible advice on how to catalogue the collection in 2008 and you start thinking, oh, yes? should not be the curator involved in that.— curator involved in that. and a salary difference _ curator involved in that. and a salary difference between - curator involved in that. and a salary difference between the | salary difference between the commercial department and what the curators get. it is commercial department and what the curators get-— curators get. it is unfortunately the case that — curators get. it is unfortunately the case that in _ curators get. it is unfortunately the case that in the _ curators get. it is unfortunately the case that in the past - curators get. it is unfortunately the case that in the past 30 - curators get. it is unfortunately i the case that in the past 30 years museum curators who are valued for their expertise, because it is no market forces, they are poorly paid. very quickly, i5 very quickly, is it possible for the british museum to repair its reputation?— british museum to repair its reputation? british museum to repair its reutation? , ., ., ., , reputation? they need to do fast what they have _ reputation? they need to do fast what they have not _ reputation? they need to do fast what they have not done - reputation? they need to do fast what they have not done much i what they have not done much earlier, — what they have not done much earlier, and especially they need to do that— earlier, and especially they need to do that upfront and publicly in order— do that upfront and publicly in order to — do that upfront and publicly in order to avoid any more doubts. every— order to avoid any more doubts. every day— order to avoid any more doubts. every day that passes and there are no clear— every day that passes and there are no clear announcements, statements, and a _ no clear announcements, statements, and a release of the photos of the objects— and a release of the photos of the objects that are missing in order to stop the _ objects that are missing in order to stop the market selling them, make it impossible to be sold further and also to _ it impossible to be sold further and also to raise awareness for the public, — also to raise awareness for the public, not _ also to raise awareness for the public, not only to experts, to identify— public, not only to experts, to identify objects possibly in due course, — identify objects possibly in due course, as long as they are not doing _ course, as long as they are not doing it — course, as long as they are not doing it immediately, yesterday, not only tomorrow, they are putting themselves in more risk. the uk'5 unemployment rate injuly rose to 4.2% according to official figures last week. but unemployment is still projected by most forecasters to peak at a much lower level than was widely expected last year. something similar has happened in the eurozone, where the jobless rate is still at a record low. yet it's in america where the good news on unemployment has been most astonishing. last year most forecasters expected it to shoot up to around 5.5% in 2023. instead it's still at 3.5%. that translates into some 3 million fewer americans jobless than anticipated. economists are not clear why the unemployment forecasts were so wrong, but for whatever reason, developed world labour markets have proved more robust in the face of fast rising interest rates than feared. it's not unalloyed positive news — in the uk and the eurozone inflation is still proving worryingly sticky, which might be because the labour market is still too buoyant. yet in a world of depressing economic developments the resilience of developed world labour markets and the fact that fewer people have lost theirjobs than expected surely counts as good news. here's ben. a spike in unemployment in the developed world brought on by aggressive but necessary hikes in interest rates by central banks to control inflation. is this the bullet we dodged in 2023? here's what various financial indicators were signalling would happen to us unemployment, hitting around 5.5% at the start of this year. and here's what has actually happened. it's remained at around 3.5%. that means around 3 million fewer americans unemployed than expected. the thought was that it would upend all the progress we've seen in the tremendous amount ofjob gains since the pandemic period. and that was really, that dire projection was hinged on the fact that generally when the fed starts raising rates, as they did and as they did so quickly over the course of the year, it really puts the brakes on the economy and really circumvents hiring. that's exactly the opposite of what happened. the unemployment rate is a good news story. why did it happen? you know, about 6 trillion government funds hit the us economy right during the heart of the downturn. a lot of that came as direct payments directly to small businesses and to consumers, and that made a difference. that led to excess savings, that led to a sense of confidence in terms of spending patterns, and helped with hiring to get all those jobs back. in the eurozone, the labour market has also held up better than predicted. here was the projection of the eurozone unemployment rate one year ahead from a survey of professional forecasters, more than 8%. and here's the actual outcome for those dates, well below 8%, and actually at a record low of 6.4%. again, that translates into millions ofjobs not lost relative to expectations. and here in the uk, unemployment last november had been expected by the bank of england to rise to 5% by the end of the year, but now it's expected to remain closer to 4% in 2023. that translates into 300,000 fewer unemployed than predicted. incidentally, look at the bank's projection for unemployment from november 2020 during the pandemic, a peak of 7% in 2021. thankfully, we didn't get anywhere near that. the uk labour market weathered the end of the furlough scheme much better than many forecasters anticipated. so if you'd have told an economist a year ago that interest rates would go up by as much as they have, but unemployment would be pretty much flat, what would they have said? i think they'd all be very pleasantly surprised by the outcome. i think one thing that may be happening is that companies don't want to let people go unless they absolutely have to, because they are aware and we learnt the lesson in the pandemic, that if you let people go in the bad times, you turn around in the good times and they've gone. someone else has hired them. so i think that's part of the story why unemployment hasn't risen. the reasons unemployment in much of the developed world has not risen as rapidly as expected, despite those big hikes in interest rate are, in truth, not fully understood. but the resilience of labour markets and the fact that so many fewer people have lost theirjobs than expected, must surely count as good news, but perhaps not unalloyed good news. what we've seen in the recent cycle is gdp has been crawling up at a snail's pace while employment growth has been much stronger. so we've employed a lot more people for very little improvement in economic output. so that equals being unproductive. and if wage growth comes without productivity, then it's just inflationary. the developed world's inflation problem is not yet over and the incredible unemployment story might ri5k extending it. but be in no doubt, when it comes tojoblessness, we are in a far better place today than we feared we'd be. in geopolitical terms the g7 almost always garners the lion's share of political and media attention in the west, and beyond, but when the bric5 summit began today injohanesburg, not only were brazil, russia, india china and south africa talking about expansion, there is also the ambition to become a counter to western domination as they see it. there's no shortage of countries lining up tojoin brics — argentina, belarus, indonesia and nigeria among them, but while the leaders of the five nations are braodly in agreement about that, this morning, at the outset, brazil's president lula de silva insisted that brics is not meant to challenge the g7. here's emir. a greeting fit for the future leaders of the world. or at least those not wanted for arrest. president putin was invited, but saved the hosts south africa from deciding whether to detain him or disobey the international criminal court, sending instead to stop emissary and joining in by video link. can this relate to safe space for criminals? to put putin in handcuffs or not is a bind to get to the heart of what is what the developing countries want to do, pull between disruptive markets on the one hand and maintaining good relations with the west, the old order, to take over the world but not upset its matters. brazil, russia, india, china, expanded with ru55ia, india, china, expanded with the accession of south africa in 2012, represents half the population and over half of the economy. more than 40 countries have expressed an interest in joining. than 40 countries have expressed an interest injoining. china says it wants the body to grow to become a rival to the powerful g7. it was imagined first as an economic growth. can it become the new centre of gravity in a multi—polar world? willing to defy an order of the victors of 20th century wars? to me to make an — victors of 20th century wars? to me to make an announcement - victors of 20th century wars? to me to make an announcement that - victors of 20th century wars? to me i to make an announcement that doesn't involve the west of the us is hugely powerful man that is probably the main reason why so many other countries would like to join. indian and brazilian officials in particular and to some degree south african ones, go out of the way to say no this is not an anti—western group, this is us as being part of the emerging world wanted to have a bigger 5ay. the emerging world wanted to have a bi aer sa . ~ the emerging world wanted to have a binersa .~ .,, the emerging world wanted to have a binersa .~ ., ., bigger say. where the rivals to the old order, there _ bigger say. where the rivals to the old order, there are _ bigger say. where the rivals to the old order, there are internal- old order, there are internal divisions already holding them back. a platform that started off as a dual economic platform is morphing into a geopolitical platform and i think many in india would be worried about it because we should have a distinct frame that would be anti—western and that for india is a no—go area. if china brings in a lot of countries which look at the world through a single lens, which is an anti—west lens, that makes indie and outsider in this very organisation of which it has been part of it from the very beginning. [30 of which it has been part of it from the very beginning.— the very beginning. do you think ind has the very beginning. do you think lndy has fair— the very beginning. do you think indy has fair concerns _ the very beginning. do you think indy has fair concerns about - the very beginning. do you think. indy has fair concerns about china leading the group towards an anti—western, chinese led group? they would consider it that way given— they would consider it that way given the — they would consider it that way given the easy relationship between the two _ given the easy relationship between the two countries. but on the other hand _ the two countries. but on the other hand what— the two countries. but on the other hand what china really wants out of this group — hand what china really wants out of this group or the g7 is to really brand — this group or the g7 is to really brand itself as being a leader of the so—called global south. what the so-called global south. what miaht the so-called global south. what mi . ht that the so-called global south. what might that look _ the so-called global south. what might that look like _ the so-called global south. what might that look like in _ the so—called global south. wusgt might that look like in practice? the so-called global south. what. might that look like in practice? in practice less of a hegemony of the united _ practice less of a hegemony of the united states, but more of sharing the global— united states, but more of sharing the global power supremacy alongside other powers as well. we don't really— other powers as well. we don't really have a very clear criteria which — really have a very clear criteria which country we consider being brics— which country we consider being brics and — which country we consider being brics and which is not. we can't really— brics and which is not. we can't really pass— brics and which is not. we can't really pass anyjudgment on what this organisation is really for. clearly— this organisation is really for. clearly being anti—western alone is not enough to rally the developing world and now is a you of would—be members forms, these masters of the future face an identity crisis to define notjust the negative, what they are against, but what the new truly multipolar world can be. joining me now in the studio to discuss the brics alliance and the importance of it, is cindy yu, host of the spectator�*s chinese whispers podcast, live from the summit in south africa is eurasia group senior analyst ziyanda stuurman and from washington, expert in china—latin american relations and former us department of defence analyst, margaret myers. thank you all forjoining u5. first of all it if i can come to you in johannesburg, do you get any sense that these five are pulling in the same direction?— same direction? that is a very interesting — same direction? that is a very interesting question _ same direction? that is a very interesting question and - same direction? that is a very interesting question and the l same direction? that is a very i interesting question and the best way to answer that is they are all coming from different places, so it is difficult to go in the same direction when there are different personalities and views on the alliance itself. as the insert said, there is a very clear framing from russia and china for this to become a very powerful counterweight and counterforce to the west, but there is much less enthusiasm and appetite from india and south africa for that. ~ ., ., , that. who would it benefit if there is a big expansion? _ that. who would it benefit if there is a big expansion? might - that. who would it benefit if there is a big expansion? might the - is a big expansion? might the delusion of the original five beta china's advantage? in delusion of the original five beta china's advantage? in expanding this u-rou china's advantage? in expanding this a-rou in china's advantage? in expanding this group in many _ china's advantage? in expanding this group in many ways _ china's advantage? in expanding this group in many ways this _ china's advantage? in expanding this group in many ways this would - china's advantage? in expanding this group in many ways this would be i china's advantage? in expanding this group in many ways this would be to | group in many ways this would be to china's advantage. we have seen that there are other areas where china is trying to lead and play an incredibly influential role in the framing of new political relationships as well as this idea of a multipolar world. but that is not to say it wouldn't be good for the other members. the origins of the other members. the origins of the trade ties a5 the other members. the origins of the trade ties as well as to some extent self cooperation is to brazil and south africa's benefit and could be to india's a5 and south africa's benefit and could be to india's as well.— be to india's as well. margaret m ers, be to india's as well. margaret myers. what — be to india's as well. margaret myers. what is _ be to india's as well. margaret myers, what is at _ be to india's as well. margaret myers, what is at the - be to india's as well. margaret myers, what is at the heart . be to india's as well. margaret myers, what is at the heart of| myers, what is at the heart of brics? has it moved from what it was originally set up to do, which was to increase economic cooperation and reduce reliance on the us dollar? is it now moving to be a much more geopolitical force it now moving to be a much more geopoliticalforce or is it now moving to be a much more geopolitical force or is that the intention at least of china? if certainly not necessarily of india? from its very origin there was some inkling _ from its very origin there was some inkling among several of the members inkling among several of the members in making _ inkling among several of the members in making this configuration very much _ in making this configuration very much an— in making this configuration very much an alternative to the us led or western— much an alternative to the us led or western led global order. whether it was specifically concerned in the influence — was specifically concerned in the influence of the us dollar, or through— influence of the us dollar, or throughjust an influence of the us dollar, or through just an alternative entity and global south —based configuration that is really intended to elevate the interests of the global south. i don't know if this is_ the global south. idon't know if this is all— the global south. i don't know if this is all that much of a departure from _ this is all that much of a departure from what — this is all that much of a departure from what we saw previously. but certainly — from what we saw previously. but certainly this expansion of brics is something — certainly this expansion of brics is something that has concerned the us, has concerned others, and is indeed china _ has concerned others, and is indeed china led _ has concerned others, and is indeed china led and would suggest that china _ china led and would suggest that china more than ever has a very profound — china more than ever has a very profound interest in being a leader of the _ profound interest in being a leader of the global south and in fact china — of the global south and in fact china has— of the global south and in fact china has adopted the term global south _ china has adopted the term global south used in the past few weeks. in doing _ south used in the past few weeks. in doing so, _ south used in the past few weeks. in doing so, in— south used in the past few weeks. in doing so, in order to balance, if i want _ doing so, in order to balance, if i want to— doing so, in order to balance, if i want to be — doing so, in order to balance, if i want to be diplomatic, or else to directly— want to be diplomatic, or else to directly challenge the g7 and the western— directly challenge the g7 and the western led order. is there a tussle for domination? domination i think is the projection of what the us led world order is to be. what academics in china have been saying is we are moving into a more multipolar world so not china dominating but china being one poll with the us is another in the eu is another and other developing nations like brazil and india as other polls. that multipolar vision i think is more realistic. and polls. that multipolar vision i think is more realistic.- polls. that multipolar vision i think is more realistic. and it does not need think is more realistic. and it does rrot need to _ think is more realistic. and it does not need to pose a _ think is more realistic. and it does not need to pose a threat - think is more realistic. and it does not need to pose a threat to - think is more realistic. and it does. not need to pose a threat to anyone but the point is we are at a very difficult political situation in the world at the moment because we have got china and america but relation is not at their best, the war in ukraine so we are not where we were when brics set out to develop. but what is when brics set out to develop. pm what is interesting is this term was a goldman sachs analyst description of up—and—coming developing countries and then the countries themselves made it into this economic alliance and now it is turning into a geopolitical one but i think a lot of the difficulties have already been discussed, difficulties between china and india and what to other countries like brazil get out of it, and can you really remove the dollar from trade. at the same time you have got lula da silva saying were not designed to challenge the g7. idetail da silva saying were not designed to challenge the g7.— da silva saying were not designed to challenge the g7. well he is keen on havin: the challenge the g7. well he is keen on having the worst _ challenge the g7. well he is keen on having the worst on _ challenge the g7. well he is keen on having the worst on his _ challenge the g7. well he is keen on having the worst on his side - challenge the g7. well he is keen on having the worst on his side so - challenge the g7. well he is keen on having the worst on his side so of. having the worst on his side so of course he would say that. and having the worst on his side so of course he would say that. and india as well. course he would say that. and india as well- and — course he would say that. and india as well. and some _ course he would say that. and india as well. and some of _ course he would say that. and india as well. and some of the _ course he would say that. and india as well. and some of the incoming | as well. and some of the incoming nations are not really interested in having a big wedge. that nations are not really interested in having a big wedge.— having a big wedge. that is why i think we will _ having a big wedge. that is why i think we willjust _ having a big wedge. that is why i think we willjust see _ having a big wedge. that is why i think we willjust see what - having a big wedge. that is why i think we willjust see what the i think we will just see what the criteria is for entry and if it will become a block, comparing them to the g7 they do not share a cultural or political affinity like the g7. look at where china is at the moment, they are not where they were when they started this road initiative, people in china are saying that all that money went to the belsen road initiative, what do we get out of it? and it is a fair point? i we get out of it? and it is a fair oint? . ~ . we get out of it? and it is a fair oint? ., ,, ., ,., we get out of it? and it is a fair oint? ., ,, ., . point? i agree, i think that so much of what was — point? i agree, i think that so much of what was the _ point? i agree, i think that so much of what was the basis _ point? i agree, i think that so much of what was the basis just _ point? i agree, i think that so much of what was the basis just as - point? i agree, i think that so much of what was the basis just as we - of what was the basis just as we mentioned, of brics back when it started _ mentioned, of brics back when it started was this growth trajectory and then— started was this growth trajectory and then you do not have that any more, _ and then you do not have that any more. you — and then you do not have that any more, you have china struggling and interestingly china still being the dominant economy within the brics grouping. _ dominant economy within the brics grouping, ithink dominant economy within the brics grouping, i think it casts an interesting light on what the criteria — interesting light on what the criteria for future admission will be. criteria for future admission will be will— criteria for future admission will be will it — criteria for future admission will be. will it be population size, and economic— be. will it be population size, and economic growth path or you know, what _ economic growth path or you know, what made — economic growth path or you know, what made that look like going forward — what made that look like going forward. �* ., ., ., forward. and another point of difference _ forward. and another point of difference margaret _ forward. and another point of difference margaret is - forward. and another point of difference margaret is that i forward. and another point of i difference margaret is that india forward. and another point of - difference margaret is that india is not so keen on expanding the amount of countries beyond two or three? that is right, india is under the perception that an expansion would limit its own influence within the block, that is one reason why were not seen much enthusiasm on the part of india but also india has an interesting well and has even been characterised as a mole on chinese media and among chinese citizens is one of the countries that does not fit so well into the stealth reconfiguration in part because of the role that it plays in collaborating leads to a degree with united states and other nations. and united states and other nations. and the other thing at this moment is the other thing at this moment is the reason that emma putin cannot go to south africa is because he would be arrested if he set foot there so the are dilemmas between countries politically a5 the are dilemmas between countries politically as well. what can the us do economically or does the us need to do anything economically, margaret, to make sure that the dollar remains the main trading currency? it dollar remains the main trading curren ? , ~ , ., currency? it strikes me that there are many limits _ currency? it strikes me that there are many limits at _ currency? it strikes me that there are many limits at this _ currency? it strikes me that there are many limits at this point - currency? it strikes me that there are many limits at this point to i currency? it strikes me that there l are many limits at this point to the extent to which any of these countries can really diversify all that much away from the dollar. certainly there is interest in the versification which is already happening in latin american and caribbean region and indeed globally, including in brazil but nevertheless there is considerable need to continue to trade in the dollar and conduct transactions i5 dollar and conduct transactions is in the dollar so the extent to which this can happen is limited. haste in the dollar so the extent to which this can happen is limited. we have a three-day — this can happen is limited. we have a three-day conference, _ this can happen is limited. we have a three-day conference, we - this can happen is limited. we have a three-day conference, we are i this can happen is limited. we have a three-day conference, we are at. a three—day conference, we are at the end of day one and what is your best assessment of where we may be at the end of these three days? if they can come up with an entry criteria by the end of the three days i would be very surprised. that would give more meat to this idea of expanding brics but until then i would not put money on it. but also they could talk about themselves, not just getting they could talk about themselves, notjust getting rid of the dollar but also trading amongst themselves with their own currencies so at least that would be a starting point just to say take the dollar away completely which i think we are quite farfrom that completely which i think we are quite far from that at the moment. so this would be solid things for them to achieve in three days but i'm sceptical. just them to achieve in three days but i'm sceptical-— i'm sceptical. just want to come back to ziyanda _ i'm sceptical. just want to come back to ziyanda stuurman, i i'm sceptical. just want to come j back to ziyanda stuurman, what i'm sceptical. just want to come i back to ziyanda stuurman, what you think would be the outcome after these three days? i think would be the outcome after these three days?— think would be the outcome after these three days? i think it would be an advancement _ these three days? i think it would be an advancement of— these three days? i think it would be an advancement of a _ these three days? i think it would be an advancement of a couple i these three days? i think it would be an advancement of a couple ofj be an advancement of a couple of individual— be an advancement of a couple of individual countries and their positions, and issues that are important _ positions, and issues that are important and high on the agenda and they run— important and high on the agenda and they run the _ important and high on the agenda and they run the gamut from agriculture and agricultural trade to food security— and agricultural trade to food security as highlighted by lula da silva during the speech tonight as well as— silva during the speech tonight as well as other trade issues as highlighted by cyril ramaphosa. sol think it _ highlighted by cyril ramaphosa. sol think it will be an interesting conversation even around the new development bank as well and that use of— development bank as well and that use of local currency and trade and cooperation— use of local currency and trade and cooperation in that sense. but i do agree _ cooperation in that sense. but i do agree that — cooperation in that sense. but i do agree that we maybe should take our expectations over what the next three _ expectations over what the next three days will achieve or with an ounce _ three days will achieve or with an ounce. . ~' three days will achieve or with an ounce. . ~ ,. three days will achieve or with an ounce. ., ~ i. ., , . blockbuster films with pyrotechnics, car chases, multi city shoots, top 5tar5 making demands for top 5tar travel — its all part of movie making, but some of the stars are now changing the weather to cut filmaking's carbon footprint. harriet walter, stephen fry, bill nighy and gemma arterton and david harewood are among the more than one hundred actors who've signed up to equity�*s environmental campaign calling for a green rider. instead of stars making demands for personal chefs and private flights, they'll demand that studios avoid the gleaming winnebagos, they'll insist on electric cars, even train travel. from edinburgh, let's speak to fehinti balogun, one of the actors who's signed that open letter, he's also a climate activist. thank you forjoining u5. thank you forjoining us. the carbon footprint of film and television particular film, footprint of film and television particularfilm, i5 footprint of film and television particularfilm, is it particularly bad? particular film, is it particularly bad? , �* , particular film, is it particularly bad? , v , , particular film, is it particularly bad? , h, _. particular film, is it particularly bad? , bad? yes, it's pretty bad. i don't have the figure _ bad? yes, it's pretty bad. i don't have the figure at _ bad? yes, it's pretty bad. i don't have the figure at the _ bad? yes, it's pretty bad. i don't have the figure at the minute i bad? yes, it's pretty bad. i don't| have the figure at the minute but bad? yes, it's pretty bad. i don't i have the figure at the minute but it is one of the highest polluting industries and it is something that we have forgotten to acknowledge when making blockbusterfilms and even smaller feature films. the when making blockbuster films and even smaller feature films. the one statistic that — even smaller feature films. the one statistic that is _ even smaller feature films. the one statistic that is here, _ even smaller feature films. the one statistic that is here, the _ even smaller feature films. the one statistic that is here, the average i statistic that is here, the average big budget film of $70 million producing an average 2840 tonnes of c02, producing an average 2840 tonnes of co2, equivalent to the amount absorbed by 3700 acres of trees in a whole year. that sounds pretty bad. but are actors rather than having their own winnebago, instead sharing, really going to cut it? that is the beautiful thing about what we're doing with the green rider, it is notjust demands by actors, it is a collaboration with the production side of things. so we have the green rider and the handshake agreement which says if you do this then we as actors will not demand theirs. it is not about pushing onto a production things that we think they need to change, it is about working with them to create a way that we can all make this work in a sustainable and yet excellent way at the same time. essen excellent way at the same time. even so if ouna excellent way at the same time. even so if young actor _ excellent way at the same time. even so if young actor is _ excellent way at the same time. even so if young actor is offered a role in say a james bond film, is that actor going to turn it down because their green credentials do not match his? i their green credentials do not match his? ~ . , their green credentials do not match his? ~' ., , ., ., their green credentials do not match his? ~ . , ., ., ., his? i think what is amazing about green rider _ his? i think what is amazing about green rider is _ his? i think what is amazing about green rider is it _ his? i think what is amazing about green rider is it is _ his? i think what is amazing about green rider is it is adaptable, i his? i think what is amazing about green rider is it is adaptable, it i green rider is it is adaptable, it is not about no will not do this or cannot do this, this thing of like here's the thing i would like to present to you and i would like to work with you to achieve these things. we also have to put into context for a lot of these big budget films, they will not be to make the same kind of work in the world that we are living in we've seen how the