the decision of a coward, unwilling to listen to parents of the babies she murdered giving the most emotional and moving testimony that you will ever hear. it's far from the first case of its kind either. in the past 18 months, the killers of sabina nessa, zara aleena, and olivia pratt korbell have all failed to attened sentencing. that is just in the past year. so, 08085 909693 — do we need to force the guilty to face court? what can we do when an offender doesn't want to come to the courtroom? particularly if they're likely to be disruptive if they do attend? streaming the proceedings to their cell has been mentioned. do we go the american way, bring them forcibly into court? it's more than a year since rishi sunak, when he was running for tory leader, first promised to change the law on this. yesterday he said letby was "cowardly" for refusing to face sentencing. the labour leader, sir keir starmer, has promised to close what he called the "shamefully exploited loophole" if elected. you'll have heard some of the arguments yesterday and this morning, now it's the chance for you to have your say. do we need to force the guilty to face court? really looking forward to getting your calls and texts on this one, how do we solve this particular situation? will get to thatjust after the latest news. hospital managers should be regulated like doctors and nurses — that's according to the senior doctor who first raised concerns about lucy letby. dr stephen breary said his experience of having concerns ignored was "not uncommon" in the nhs. nhs england says it's "vital" that staff feel they can raise concerns and that these are acted upon. scientists believe prostate cancer could be more accurately diagnosed using mri scans, rather than existing blood tests. it's after research involving 300 men was carried out by university college hospital in london. a charity's raised concerns over figures that show secondary school pupils in england spent 4,000 fewer hours doing pe and sport over the last year. the youth sport trust says it should be a "matter of immediate national concern". the government says schools should deliver at least two hours of pe a week. and the england women's football team has arrived back in the uk. they were beaten 1—0 by spain in the world cup final on sunday. the players touched down at heathrow this morning.— thanks for being with us this morning whether you are listening or you are watching. should we force the guilty to face court? call me on 08085 909693. text 85058. it is something that has been discussed and debated after what happened yesterday in court in manchester. lucy letby given a full life sentence but not there to see the sentencing hearing. it is something that's been discussed by politicians for about a year now and saying they will find some kind of solution to this, it has been suggested that it may be in the kings speech that primary legislation is put through, so we may be waiting another year, potentially, before we see a change in the law —— king's speech. how do we go about this? it is a case of bringing someone forcibly to court, as we've seen in america? it is there a danger, if we go down that road, of making the proceedings about them rather than the testimonies of these families that that person's crimes has so deeply affected? get in touch. let's begin by speaking to some callers, the sister of sabina nessa. you might remember sabina nessa was murdered in september 2021, 28 years of age, murdered in south—east london. now herfamily have been murdered in south—east london. now her family have been calling for her law since april last year that would do exactly what we are talking about, force offenders to appear for their sentencing —— sabina's law. thank you for speaking to us this morning. how are you and your family doing? morning. how are you and your family doin ? , ., ., morning. how are you and your family doin ? ,., ., ., ~ morning. how are you and your family doinu? ., ~ ., doing? good morning. we are ok, caettin doing? good morning. we are ok, getting their _ doing? good morning. we are ok, getting their day — doing? good morning. we are ok, getting their day by _ doing? good morning. we are ok, getting their day by day. _ doing? good morning. we are 0k,j getting their day by day. obviously we are approaching the two—year mark which is bringing back memories, and obviously now listening to lucy letby�*s case, it is more trauma bringing it back when offenders are not being made to come to court. what do you think of the fact we are still having this conversation? as i say, i was april 2022 that you started to try and bring about sabina's law, and here we are, i mentioned rishi sunak, the best part of a year ago as well make this part of a year ago as well make this part of his leadership campaign to try and change the laws well. this of his leadership campaign to try and change the laws well. this is a clear example _ and change the laws well. this is a clear example of _ and change the laws well. this is a clear example of the _ and change the laws well. this is a clear example of the fact - and change the laws well. this is a clear example of the fact that - and change the laws well. this is a clear example of the fact that we | clear example of the fact that we are not moving quick enough to change the law, because we are seeing time and time again defendants not coming to court and victims�* family are put at the back, our feelings are not being heard, victims�* family are put at the back, ourfeelings are not being heard, a victim impact statement that we�*ve written, they are not being listened to by these perpetrators and it�*s a real kick in the teeth and we should be at the front of the court, we should be listened to, but instead these defendants are literally have these defendants are literally have the right to say actually i�*m 0k, these defendants are literally have the right to say actually i�*m ok, i don�*t want to come to court and face up don�*t want to come to court and face up to the crimes have done. that is not on and the fact that there is no law in place, that we are seeing this vicious cycle happening time and time again... hagar this vicious cycle happening time and time again. . ._ this vicious cycle happening time and time again... how aware where ou and and time again... how aware where you and your _ and time again... how aware where you and your family _ and time again... how aware where you and your family that _ and time again... how aware where you and your family that sabina's i you and your family that sabina�*s murder had the option not to attend the sentencing hearing? how aware of that where you at the time? i did not hear about _ that where you at the time? i did not hear about this _ that where you at the time? i c c not hear about this until my family liaison officer told me and i was actually shocked and quite disgusted at the same time thinking how on earth is this guy allowed to have an option to come to court. he murdered my sister, he took away her life, but he still has that choice. he took my sister�*s life and still has that choice, is not acceptable. and it�*s just... that choice, is not acceptable. and it�*sjust... i think that choice, is not acceptable. and it�*s just... i think not many people knew that these defendants had a right to come to court and not until i think family and friends have asked me, how come he didn�*t come to court? and i had to say they have a choice. and they were all gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine ou gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine you must've — gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine you must've spoken _ gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine you must've spoken to _ gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine you must've spoken to lots _ gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine you must've spoken to lots of - gobsmacked, to be honest. i imagine you must've spoken to lots of other. you must�*ve spoken to lots of other families how important it is for them to be heard by the offender when they are giving their impact statements, because we�*ve heard the emotion that was on display yesterday, as aside in the introduction, you are going to struggle to hear anything of that level of emotion anywhere, aren�*t you? i don�*t know, how important is it for those families to have the person who carries out those crimes, that affected those families so deeply, to understand and to heed it in their words, right in front of them? i in their words, right in front of them? ~' ., , ., , them? i think when i was doing my victim impact _ them? i think when i was doing my victim impact statement, - them? i think when i was doing my victim impact statement, i - them? i think when i was doing my victim impact statement, i wanted| victim impact statement, i wanted him to hear what he had done to me and my family. and wejust him to hear what he had done to me and my family. and we just wanted them to listen to how much pain they caused in our life and the fact they are not there was just absurd. the are not there was 'ust absurd. the ractical are not there was 'ust absurd. the practical side — are not there was just absurd. the practical side of it, it is tough, isn�*t it, because if you have someone who says i don�*t want to go, i�*m not going to go and what options do we have? we sucked about forcibly bringing them into the court room but i suppose they could cover their ears, close their eyes, they don�*t have to engage, do they? so what have to engage, do they? so what have you suggested in sabina�*s law is the way through on this? i have you suggested in sabina's law is the way through on this?- is the way through on this? i think firstl we is the way through on this? i think firstly we need — is the way through on this? i think firstly we need to _ is the way through on this? i think firstly we need to try _ is the way through on this? i think firstly we need to try and - is the way through on this? i think firstly we need to try and make i is the way through on this? i think. firstly we need to try and make them come to court, and if not, maybe add more years onto their sentencing. we want to be heard, we want to be put at the forefront of the court, not them having the choice of coming to court and not. because that feels like our feelings, court and not. because that feels like ourfeelings, emotions court and not. because that feels like our feelings, emotions don�*t matter. so we need something from the victim side to feel that we are kind of in control. the the victim side to feel that we are kind of in control.— kind of in control. the issue that has been brought _ kind of in control. the issue that has been brought up _ kind of in control. the issue that has been brought up in - kind of in control. the issue that has been brought up in the - kind of in control. the issue that has been brought up in the case| kind of in control. the issue that l has been brought up in the case of lucy letby as you are already dealing with someone who is a full life sentence, don�*t you? so the option of adding anything further to their sentence isn�*t there, in her case. their sentence isn't there, in her case. . , their sentence isn't there, in her case. ., , ., , their sentence isn't there, in her case. ., , . 2 case. yeah, but as the victim's famil , case. yeah, but as the victim's family. we _ case. yeah, but as the victim's family, we need _ case. yeah, but as the victim's family, we need something - case. yeah, but as the victim's family, we need something to| case. yeah, but as the victim's - family, we need something to kind of be like we acknowledge what they�*ve done, 0k, they haven�*t come to court, but we can put a couple more years on top, but still we felt like we have been heard. fight! years on top, but still we felt like we have been heard.— we have been heard. and if they don't come _ we have been heard. and if they don't come to _ we have been heard. and if they don't come to court, _ we have been heard. and if they don't come to court, you - we have been heard. and if they don't come to court, you can - we have been heard. and if they - don't come to court, you can stream don�*t come to court, you can stream the proceedings into the cell because we understand lucy letby was there at manchester crown court yesterday when a holding cell, you can stream the proceedings to them there, would you see that as an option? element with my sister�*s casey had the choice of the live stream but you refuse that as well, so obviously they still had the option, so we kind of thing to think about all aspects.— about all aspects. inspect all the victims' families _ about all aspects. inspect all the victims' families to _ about all aspects. inspect all the victims' families to get _ about all aspects. inspect all the victims' families to get their - about all aspects. inspect all the l victims' families to get their input victims�* families to get their input to create this change because of this change is not created soon, then we�*re not going to see anything happen, going to see this going on. the text here from stephen in weston—super—mare, let me read this to you, firstly my heart goes out everyone affected by the despicable acts of lucy letby, and forcing the guilty intercom sensing is a bit of a double—edged sword, the result was a double—edged sword, the result was a risk it becomes more about the guilty party rather than the victims�* families, and probably what most if not all people want, careful consideration should be taken before any decision is made, i don�*t think there is an easy answer, each part has some positives and negatives, what about the fact it becomes more about the person, publicly if they are wanting to be disrupted, wanting to shout out, one way or another suddenly it becomes about them rather than about you and your family members?— rather than about you and your family members? rather than about you and your famil members? ., , ., ., family members? that is a tricky one i think that family members? that is a tricky one i think that is — family members? that is a tricky one i think that is why _ family members? that is a tricky one i think that is why we _ family members? that is a tricky one i think that is why we all _ family members? that is a tricky one i think that is why we all need - family members? that is a tricky one i think that is why we all need to - i think that is why we all need to sit down together and discuss how different aspects because obviously the is them trying to cause disturbance in court which which can make it uneasy for anyone, really. when you see it all needs to be brought together and discuss, you were talking about doing this in april 2022, some are talking over a year�*s time, have there been much willingness from politicians to engage? it is presumably they are the years you�*ve been trying to get on this. is the years you've been trying to get on this. , , , . the years you've been trying to get onthis. ,, m ,, on this. is been difficult because the leral on this. is been difficult because the legal side, _ on this. is been difficult because the legal side, you _ on this. is been difficult because the legal side, you cannot - on this. is been difficult because the legal side, you cannot drag i on this. is been difficult because - the legal side, you cannot drag them to court, you cannot do this without, so many negative answers to it, but i feel like if we can talk together, talk, think about the good things of like, ijust feel like it is always on the defendant�*s side when i was in that process, i felt like they had the right of their say, if they wanted him to court, and if you like we are not being heard and we need change, because otherwise... the danger is when you are complaining for something like this, it�*s all very well the day after something like we saw yesterday with lucy letby, but any man, a couple of months�* time, three months won�*t be the same kind of debate, sinking discussion, the same kind of imperative on politicians, i suppose, necessarily. and i think it�*sjust... it isjust a hard one, it�*s hard to, how do i say? wejust need a hard one, it�*s hard to, how do i say? we just need to sit down and talk. and make change.— say? we just need to sit down and talk. and make change. thank you, we really appreciate _ talk. and make change. thank you, we really appreciate your _ talk. and make change. thank you, we really appreciate your time, _ talk. and make change. thank you, we really appreciate your time, thank - really appreciate your time, thank you very much for talking to us and all the best to you and your family as well. the sister of sabina nessa, has been calling for sabina�*s law since april last year, so over a year. let�*s speak to a politician, will get you some of your call is a moment, getting plenty of them. get in touch now. we love to speak to you this morning. let�*s have a word with sir bob neill, conservative mp, chair of thejustice with sir bob neill, conservative mp, chair of the justice select committee, this would be something he would have been facing commentary would have discussed in your committee, good morning to you, what we think and why is it taking so long to get anywhere on this, bob? it is much harder than it seems at first glance, for some of the reasons that have already been rehearsed, instinctively everybody feels that the behaviour of people like lucy letby and others has been absolutely despicable, and it is in absolutely despicable, and it is in a right depriving the grieving families, victims of murder in particular, that ability to see the whites of the eyes, which i can quite understand. but there is the problem, the caller raised a very serious practical one, the law can�*t compel somebody to be brought to court itself, it is possible that the judge can give a directory for them to be brought up to the dock, provided reasonable force is used, we could certainly strengthen the ability of the judge to order that, but it must ultimately always be the decision of the judge, because of thejudges in charge of decision of the judge, because of the judges in charge of the core, and remember they will often see both the defendant and families throughout the whole course of the trial, thejudges in charge of court, not the politicians, and the faroes, we see in one instance of it, when they do try and take over the proceedings, make a demonstration, create disturbance, would it help the family if whilst they are giving their witness, victim impact statement, you have got the defendant shouting abuse from the dock? intervening? would that help them with the catharsis? we need to, i agree, discuss that, but that is a real practical problem, isn�*t it? but that is a real practical problem, isn't it?- but that is a real practical problem, isn't it? the trickiest art of problem, isn't it? the trickiest part of this _ problem, isn't it? the trickiest part of this is _ problem, isn't it? the trickiest part of this is when _ problem, isn't it? the trickiest part of this is when you - problem, isn't it? the trickiest part of this is when you are - problem, isn't it? the trickiest - part of this is when you are talking about someone who has a full life sentence, isn�*t it? and the idea of putting more years until your sentence means nothing. if you�*re talking about someone who has a life sentence, that could potentially surely be used as some kind of threat to them.— threat to them. certainly into --eole threat to them. certainly into peeple who _ threat to them. certainly into people who are _ threat to them. certainly into people who are not _ threat to them. certainly into people who are not getting . threat to them. certainly into | people who are not getting life sentences, or... aha, people who are not getting life sentences, or...— sentences, or... a full life sentence _ sentences, or... a full life sentence we _ sentences, or... a full life sentence we should - sentences, or... a full life i sentence we should probably sentences, or... a full life - sentence we should probably a full stop in sentence we should probably a full sto ; ,., sentence we should probably a full sto_ , ., . ., , , sentence we should probably a full sto_ , ., ., ., stop in some cases, a solution that would work — stop in some cases, a solution that would work in _ stop in some cases, a solution that would work in cases _ stop in some cases, a solution that would work in cases where - stop in some cases, a solution that would work in cases where it - stop in some cases, a solution that would work in cases where it is - stop in some cases, a solution that would work in cases where it is not| would work in cases where it is not a full life sentence or it may not even be a life sentence, gbh or something like that, a robbery when you make it a large number of years, you make it a large number of years, you could also very easily give the judge the power to order that the time they spent remanded in custody pending the trial would not count towards their sentence, that would therefore automatically extend the sentence as well, and in relation to people with a whole life tariff, there might be a practical means of that being reflected in the sorts of conditions they get within prison. for example, whether or not they could be transferred at some future date towards a less secure environment, whether or not they might be entitled at some point towards privileges, something like that may be a way forward. human riahts that may be a way forward. human rights could _ that may be a way forward. human rights could fall _ that may be a way forward. human rights could fall foul— that may be a way forward. human rights could fall foul of— that may be a way forward. human rights could fall foul of that. - that may be a way forward. human rights could fall foul of that. i - rights could fall foul of that. i think provided it is proportionate, and was considered process, i don�*t think that may necessarily be the case. all those things are worth investigating. case. all those things are worth investigating-— case. all those things are worth investigating.- there - case. all those things are worth investigating.- there is - investigating. sure. there is -robabl investigating. sure. there is probably no _ investigating. sure. there is probably no single _ investigating. sure. there is probably no single silver - investigating. sure. there is probably no single silver bullet. investigating. sure. there is - probably no single silver bullet. no single silver bullet is the worry politicians getting out your? it was the 19th ofjuly last year, during the 19th ofjuly last year, during the conservative leadership campaign, rishi sunak said he would do everything possible to make sure victims have the chance to look their perpetrator in the eye and witness justice being served. their perpetrator in the eye and witnessjustice being served. a their perpetrator in the eye and witness justice being served. a year and a bit on from that, what�*s happened since, not a lot. the government response to the lucy letby verdict, in promising legislation in the king�*s speech, the 7th of november, we know how slowly these things can work, means it could be another year before a repeat of court boycott of that kind, could be outlawed. what the government getting at here? if we are saying there is no silver bullet, a vexed issue, which most of us fully accept and understand how difficult an issue it is to overcome, orthe difficult an issue it is to overcome, or the government saying they are going to get in king�*s speech in respect of legislation? i suspect at this moment are not a lot of internal conservation is going on around it, one of the things you can�*t talk about publicly but certainly absolutely need to do is to count the views of the senior judiciary in this matter, thejudges must always be in charge in the courts, not the politicians, so we have to have a system that will work for the judges, have to have a system that will work for thejudges, that have to have a system that will work for the judges, that will have to have a system that will work for thejudges, that will work have to have a system that will work for the judges, that will work for the good order of the court, because it is a fair point that we must urgently engage with families who have been through this, bear in mind that not all families are... and victims of medical come to this inclusion in this either, and that has to be thought and finally, if it�*s going to require primary legislation then that�*s just the way the legislative process works. i think something is perhaps politicians have to be upfront and say not as quick as it might first appear. say not as quick as it might first a- ear. ~ ., , say not as quick as it might first auear. ~ ., , , say not as quick as it might first a--ear.., , i, ,. appear. would it be verbally public to see this and _ appear. would it be verbally public to see this and think _ appear. would it be verbally public to see this and think there - appear. would it be verbally public to see this and think there is - to see this and think there is dither and delay at the top of this? i don�*t think it�*s the rental leg, i think it is genuinely agonising more likely, i know serious people who had a long career as a barrister doing criminal cases, has seen the sort of thing is for san, is very engaged with this personally and has a lot of other serious issues also coming along, but i think there is a genuine desire to get it right. hand genuine desire to get it right. and the perception that the offender is being thought of a head of the families. thank you for your time. we�*ll go to lehman manchester any moment. dan in chichester, if you have your text this morning, if you want to get in touch that way, why can�*t the legislation be changed to don�*t appear in court he did verdict out prison privileges remove right time? something that sir bob neill wishes mentioning. another, if people are bring guilty they must be made to face court, how can we expect people to take responsibility and acknowledge the harm done if we don�*t make them face the reality of what they have done? it allows those harm to feel justice what they have done? it allows those harm to feeljustice has been done and encourages the guilty party to see the damage caused may be begin to face up to their crimes and make in themselves. let�*s have a word with dave in plymouth, lehman manchester, good morning both. i think liam has dropped off. dave, what are you thinking when you�*re of this? what are you thinking when you're of this? ~ ~ what are you thinking when you're of this? ~ ,, ., , what are you thinking when you're of this? ~ ~ ., , . , this? well, i think any civilised country that — this? well, i think any civilised country that we _ this? well, i think any civilised country that we should - this? well, i think any civilised country that we should be - this? well, i think any civilised i country that we should be giving this? well, i think any civilised - country that we should be giving the convicted the right to attend their sentencing. but if they refuse, in the case yesterday they would have said 21, if you�*re not going, the first quarter of year sentence, we will put an arbitrary 20 years in solitary confinement and on minimum human rights, the minimum we can get away with, now it�*s up to you whether you want then that first 20 years in the worst place possible or summer slightly better, are you going to go and walk into the court? and let them trip themselves up, let them trip themselves up, and that way everybody still gets race, the prisoner still gets their right spot the families no that the person that has gone and done the crime has gone and shot himself in the foot. lets brina in and shot himself in the foot. lets bring in the _ and shot himself in the foot. lets bring in the vice _ and shot himself in the foot. lets bring in the vice chair of the criminal bar association. good morning. if you are happy to speak to a view of our listeners and some of these points being raised that would be great. they�*ve been plymouth, bringing up the point that if he chooses not to go and attend the hearing, the sentencing hearing, then you can find ways to encourage them, you know? and the suggestion from dave there, solitary confinement of the quarter of your sentence. are these realistic things we�*re talking about? i sentence. are these realistic things we're talking about?— we're talking about? i don't think that is realistic _ we're talking about? i don't think that is realistic but _ we're talking about? i don't think that is realistic but i _ we're talking about? i don't think that is realistic but i think - we're talking about? i don't think that is realistic but i think we - that is realistic but i think we need — that is realistic but i think we need to— that is realistic but i think we need to think about ways to encourage defendants to face up tom _ encourage defendants to face up to... . . encourage defendants to face up to... ., ., , encourage defendants to face up to... ., , ., , ., to... can i ask why that is not realistic? _ to... can i ask why that is not realistic? i— to. .. can i ask why that is not realistic? i think— to... can i ask why that is not realistic? i think having - to... can i ask why that is not. realistic? i think having someone to... can i ask why that is not - realistic? i think having someone in solitary confinement _ realistic? i think having someone in solitary confinement might - realistic? i think having someone in solitary confinement might breach i solitary confinement might breach huntan— solitary confinement might breach human rights in the forms of torture. _ human rights in the forms of torture, and if it was considered... you are _ torture, and if it was considered... you are punishing someone for what may be _ you are punishing someone for what may be a _ you are punishing someone for what may be a decision based on a number of different _ may be a decision based on a number of different reasons. i know what has been — of different reasons. i know what has been discussed is whether... what _ has been discussed is whether... what we — has been discussed is whether... what we are trying to achieve is a defendant— what we are trying to achieve is a defendant facing up and recognising the damage they have done, and the recordings— the damage they have done, and the recordings of the victim impact statements being played to that defendant, when that is appropriate, so if defendant, when that is appropriate, 50 if they— defendant, when that is appropriate, so if they refuse to come on that day, _ so if they refuse to come on that day, that— so if they refuse to come on that day, that is— so if they refuse to come on that day, that is still there, and the probation — day, that is still there, and the probation services, within these present— probation services, within these present do work with offenders and prisoners, — present do work with offenders and prisoners, and that decision needs to be _ prisoners, and that decision needs to be thought through. yellow the minimum — to be thought through. yellow the minimum human rights as it stands, what is _ minimum human rights as it stands, what is the — minimum human rights as it stands, what is the situation with that? it depends— what is the situation with that? it depends what would be thought of as torture. _ depends what would be thought of as torture. to _ depends what would be thought of as torture, to put someone in solitary confinement for 20 years... torture, to put someone in solitary confinement for 20 years. . .- confinement for 20 years... there has to be something _ confinement for 20 years... there has to be something let _ confinement for 20 years... there has to be something let written i confinement for 20 years... ii—ii” has to be something let written down in law at the moment to say that is the basic human rights that a prisoner deserves.— the basic human rights that a prisoner deserves. the basic human rights that a risoner deserves. , �* ., ., , prisoner deserves. yes, i'm not able to discuss human _ prisoner deserves. yes, i'm not able to discuss human rights _ prisoner deserves. yes, i'm not able to discuss human rights cases - prisoner deserves. yes, i'm not able to discuss human rights cases now l prisoner deserves. yes, i'm not able l to discuss human rights cases now on this call, _ to discuss human rights cases now on this call, but— to discuss human rights cases now on this call, but i think there are other— this call, but i think there are other things that you could consider, with respect to removal of privileges, _ consider, with respect to removal of privileges, certainly, to encourage defendants, the point is to encourage them to face the court and face the _ encourage them to face the court and face the victims, but the actual sentencing hearing, ifi face the victims, but the actual sentencing hearing, if i may say, the sentencing hearing really is to be not _ the sentencing hearing really is to be not disrupted but to show complete respect of the families, and for— complete respect of the families, and for them to be heard, so for them _ and for them to be heard, so for them to— and for them to be heard, so for them to have their opportunity to tell the _ them to have their opportunity to tell the court the impact on them of what's _ tell the court the impact on them of what's happened, but for the judge to consider that and the judge to consider— to consider that and the judge to consider and the terms of passing the appropriate sentence. put consider and the terms of passing the appropriate sentence.- the appropriate sentence. put in whole life like _ the appropriate sentence. put in whole life like lucy _ the appropriate sentence. put in whole life like lucy letby - the appropriate sentence. put in whole life like lucy letby got, i the appropriate sentence. put in j whole life like lucy letby got, to be a little bit indelicate, she has got everyone by the short and curly is and there needs to be a way to leave for... it is and there needs to be a way to leave for- - -_ is and there needs to be a way to leave for... it depends on how you see it, i leave for... it depends on how you see it. i can _ leave for... it depends on how you see it, i can understand _ leave for. .. it depends on how you see it, i can understand how- leave for... it depends on how you i see it, i can understand how people think— see it, i can understand how people think she _ see it, i can understand how people think she has some form of control, however— think she has some form of control, however the — think she has some form of control, however the court process, the way i view it _ however the court process, the way i view it as _ however the court process, the way i view it as the — however the court process, the way i view it as the court process was in control, _ view it as the court process was in control, she — view it as the court process was in control, she was not able to disrupt that hearing, she was not able to disrupt— that hearing, she was not able to disrupt those victims being able to be heard _ disrupt those victims being able to be heard in court and she was not able _ be heard in court and she was not able to— be heard in court and she was not able to disrupt that sentence, the whole _ able to disrupt that sentence, the whole life — able to disrupt that sentence, the whole life that was imposed. is that our whole life that was imposed. is that your primary _ whole life that was imposed. is that your primary fear — whole life that was imposed. is that your primary fear in _ whole life that was imposed. is that your primary fear in this, _ whole life that was imposed. is that your primary fear in this, that - your primary fear in this, that you would have an individual coming to court and making it about them, ultimately?— court and making it about them, ultimatel ? . ., , , . ultimately? well, that is very much at the forefront _ ultimately? well, that is very much at the forefront of _ ultimately? well, that is very much at the forefront of one _ ultimately? well, that is very much at the forefront of one of _ ultimately? well, that is very much at the forefront of one of the - at the forefront of one of the concerns, _ at the forefront of one of the concerns, because that does happen, defendants _ concerns, because that does happen, defendants particularly have committed the most heinous crimes sometimes — committed the most heinous crimes sometimes to try to make the hearing all about— sometimes to try to make the hearing all about them, but the other concern — all about them, but the other concern is _ all about them, but the other concern is that you have to have, ultimately. — concern is that you have to have, ultimately, if you are going to force — ultimately, if you are going to force people into the dock, you have to have _ force people into the dock, you have to have a _ force people into the dock, you have to have a consideration of how you're — to have a consideration of how you're going to do that, using restraint _ you're going to do that, using restraint and force is certainly not the way— restraint and force is certainly not the way we — restraint and force is certainly not the way we should be going. thank ou. a the way we should be going. thank you- a spring _ the way we should be going. thank you- a spring in — the way we should be going. thank you. a spring in more _ the way we should be going. thank you. a spring in more listeners - the way we should be going. t�*iag�*ia; you. a spring in more listeners and viewers. hello. rachel, what are you thinking? i�*m viewers. hello. rachel, what are you thinkin: ? �* ~ ., thinking? i'm thinking that politicians, _ thinking? i'm thinking that politicians, and _ thinking? i'm thinking that politicians, and i'm - thinking? i'm thinking that l politicians, and i'm including thinking? i'm thinking that - politicians, and i'm including the politicians, and i�*m including the prime minister and the leader of the opposition, just need to be careful what they are promising victims�* families here, because i heard an mp this morning on bbc breakfast saying about, 0k, even if we can�*t force them into the doctor face about, 0k, even if we can�*t force them into the doctorface in person, that they were she went into the cell, you can�*t make someone watch or listen to anything, they can sit there with the irish are yelling over it. how do you make someone? you can�*t make someone watch anything, listen to anything or come to that read anything and ijust i am concerned that these promises about law changes are being made that are actually going to be in some cases virtually impossible to enforce. , , ,., enforce. this is the point we were caettin enforce. this is the point we were getting into _ enforce. this is the point we were getting into with _ enforce. this is the point we were getting into with the _ enforce. this is the point we were getting into with the trade - enforce. this is the point we were getting into with the trade of- enforce. this is the point we were getting into with the trade of the l getting into with the trade of the justice committee, saying it is a very complicated issue and politicians will be canvassing opinions deceive they can actually reach an adequate conclusion on it but i think it is very good point and is, sarah, whatare your thoughts? and is, sarah, what are your thoughts?— and is, sarah, what are your thou~hts? �* ., ., thoughts? i'm frightened of all the mistakes, thoughts? i'm frightened of all the mistakes. the _ thoughts? i'm frightened of all the mistakes, the birmingham - thoughts? i'm frightened of all the mistakes, the birmingham six, - thoughts? i'm frightened of all the| mistakes, the birmingham six, the guildford _ mistakes, the birmingham six, the guildford four the m253, michael o'brien _ guildford four the m253, michael o'brien and the latest, andrew milton — o'brien and the latest, andrew milton seen. he would not admit that he had _ milton seen. he would not admit that he had raped and whatever he did to this girl, _ he had raped and whatever he did to this girl, so— he had raped and whatever he did to this girl, so they kept two men, he had to— this girl, so they kept two men, he had to admit to something he hadn't done _ had to admit to something he hadn't done what— had to admit to something he hadn't done. what are we going to do? it is thisjust _ done. what are we going to do? it is thisjust about revenge or something? what has happened is appalling _ something? what has happened is appalling and i can speak as someone whose _ appalling and i can speak as someone whose son _ appalling and i can speak as someone whose son nearly died in hospital through— whose son nearly died in hospital through arrogance and they wouldn't listen _ through arrogance and they wouldn't listen to— through arrogance and they wouldn't listen to me. sol through arrogance and they wouldn't listen to me. so i am not too keen believer— listen to me. so i am not too keen believer in — listen to me. so i am not too keen believer in the medical profession. but i _ believer in the medical profession. but i worry— believer in the medical profession. but i worry of all the mistakes. everyone — but i worry of all the mistakes. everyone is going up in arms about they would — everyone is going up in arms about they would have to force him to stand _ they would have to force him to stand there and hear things about himself— stand there and hear things about himself that weren't true. did stand there and hear things about himself that weren't true.- himself that weren't true. did you hear the discussion _ himself that weren't true. did you hear the discussion we _ himself that weren't true. did you hear the discussion we had - himself that weren't true. did you hear the discussion we had with i himself that weren't true. did you i hear the discussion we had with the sister of sabina nessa right at the beginning of the programme? who was murdered in london in 2021? she spoke, they�*ve been pushing for a change in the law since april last year, to establish exactly this, to have offenders appear for the sentencing here, she described very eloquently and passionately about how important it would be and was for herfamily to how important it would be and was for her family to have the person who killed her sister to be in court to hear what it meant to their family. i understand what you�*re saying, in terms of people who were later acquitted, saying, in terms of people who were lateracquitted, but saying, in terms of people who were later acquitted, but what about all of those people who are there for the reason that they were found guilty for? what about the relatives of the people — what about the relatives of the people who are standing up or didn't do it? _ people who are standing up or didn't do it? there — people who are standing up or didn't do it? there are two sides to every story _ do it? there are two sides to every story alan — do it? there are two sides to every story. alan hall is a man who has literativ— story. alan hall is a man who has literallyjust come out of prison from _ literallyjust come out of prison from new— literallyjust come out of prison from new zealand, 18 years he spent for murder— from new zealand, 18 years he spent for murder there. three days after the andy— for murder there. three days after the andy malkinson case. he never did it _ the andy malkinson case. he never did it you — the andy malkinson case. he never did it. you have to... i don't know _ did it. you have to... i don't know it _ did it. you have to... i don't know... itjust seems so did it. you have to... i don't know... it just seems so wrong, did it. you have to... i don't know... itjust seems so wrong, the people _ know... itjust seems so wrong, the people are — know... itjust seems so wrong, the people are all forgotten who didn't do the _ people are all forgotten who didn't do the crime... people are all forgotten who didn't do the crime. . ._ do the crime... thank you, sarah. che l, do the crime... thank you, sarah. cheryl. just _ do the crime... thank you, sarah. cheryl, just before _ do the crime... thank you, sarah. cheryl, just before we _ do the crime... thank you, sarah. cheryl, just before we get - do the crime... thank you, sarah. cheryl, just before we get to - do the crime... thank you, sarah. cheryl, just before we get to the i cheryl, just before we get to the news headlines in edinburgh. what are you thinking? i news headlines in edinburgh. what are you thinking?— are you thinking? i think to be honest the _ are you thinking? i think to be honest the culprit _ are you thinking? i think to be honest the culprit should - are you thinking? i think to be honest the culprit should be i are you thinking? i think to be - honest the culprit should be forced to hear the consequences of their actions, notjust on the victim or the person they have killed but on the person they have killed but on the families and friends and how it has affected them.— has affected them. which is fine. and it is an _ has affected them. which is fine. and it is an argument _ has affected them. which is fine. and it is an argument we - has affected them. which is fine. and it is an argument we keep i and it is an argument we keep hearing. but what about the practical side of it? if that person says they don�*t want to go, would you advocate them being forcibly brought into court? it�*s you advocate them being forcibly brought into court?— brought into court? it's not something _ brought into court? it's not something you _ brought into court? it's not something you can - brought into court? it's not something you can fasten i brought into court? it's not - something you can fasten somebody but it would certainly be helpful if they could. if they were able to come across and say yes, i am guilty of that. and yes, i am sorry i did it. i would like to be able to change myself so that i don�*t repeat the act again. change myself so that i don't repeat the act again-— the act again. thank you, cheryl. the question _ the act again. thank you, cheryl. the question we're _ the act again. thank you, cheryl. the question we're asking - the act again. thank you, cheryl. the question we're asking this i the question we�*re asking this morning, should we force the guilty to attend court? that is after lucy letby chose not to attend the sentencing in her court hearing yesterday. the testimony that we heard from the families, the emotions that we heard at manchester court yesterday. something that the killer, lucy letby, wasn�*t there to hear herself. she refers to the guilty face court? call me on 08085 909693. that is the phone number, you can text 85058. what�*s more of your call standing by but it is time, at 9:33am, to get the latest headlines. the senior consultant who first raised concerns about lucy letby says his experience is not uncommon in the nhs. dr stephen breary, whose warnings weren�*t acted upon, told the bbc that hospital managers should be regulated in the same way as doctors and nurses. nhs england says it�*s reminded leaders it�*s "vital" that staff feel they can speak out. there are hopes that a 10—minute mri scan could offer a more reliable way of screening men for prostate cancer. researchers at university college london found the scans were far more accurate than existing blood tests. russia�*s defence ministry says it�*s downed two drones over the moscow region — and two more in bryansk near the ukrainian border. flights were temporarily stopped to and from moscow early this morning. and airline figures show the number of bags that were lost, delayed or damaged last year was 26 million — the highest in a decade. the industry�*s blamed difficulties recruiting staff after the pandemic. that�*s the news, shourjo sarkar has the sport. chelsea are set to complete the signing of djordje petrovic from new england revolution for a fee of £14m. the goalkeeper will move to stamford bridge following the departure of kepa arrizabalaga, who�*sjoined real madrid on loan. chelsea have also confirmed that midfielder, carney chukwuemeka, will be sidelines for six weeks after undergoing knee surgery.the arsenal manager, mikel arteta, claims that rules around time—wasting are not being imposed consistently. arsenal defender, takehiro tomiyasu, was sent off against crystal palace last night after picking up two yellow cards. the first of those was given to him for time—wasting over a throw—in. the american sprinter, sha�*carri richardson, made up for missing the tokyo 0lympics due to a drug ban, to win the women�*s 100 metres world title in budapest. she clocked a championship record time of 10.65 seconds on the way to winning gold. and twickenham has been confirmed as one of eight host venues for the 2025 women�*s rugby world cup. sunderland�*s stadium of light and york�*s community stadium are also on the list. turning it up to 100 decibels... its back! 100% action. the first ever hundred in the hundred! oh, my word! loving the atmosphere! the hundred, watch now on bbc iplayer. thank you for being with us this morning. we�*ll keep talking about the justice system for the next 20 minutes or so. loads more of your call standing by. then at ten on 5 live and bbc sounds we�*re talking about physical education — do your kids get enough pe? there�*s concern at cuts to the number of hours secondary school pupils spend doing pe in england. pupils spent four thousand fewer hours doing pe and sport over the last year. there�*s been a 12% drop since the 2012 london olympics. so much was made of the legacy that the olympics would bring us in terms of our physical health. but a 12% drop since they were held just over ten years ago. and charity the youth sport trust says, "fewer than half of children in the uk currently meet 60 minutes a day of moderate to vigorous physical activity". in march, the government announced that schools in england would be required to deliver a minimum of two hours of pe per week. so what�*s your experience of pe lessons and sport more generally at your children�*s school? do they spend enough time being active? is the quality and quantity good enough? and if your children aren�*t into sport, can it be a struggle to get them moving? are you finding that schools are giving them enough inspiration to do so? what other options are there? do you think schools are a lost cause with this in your area? it is all about after—school clubs or clubs in your local area, whatever it might be. and we know, don�*t we, the link between physical health and mental health in childhood and then going into adult hood as well? get in touch if you are a parent, pupil, or a teacher, tell us what it is like at your school. do your kids get enough pe? let�*s return to what we have been talking about for the past a0 minutes or so. it was lucy letby�*s sentencing hearing yesterday. the court room, really quite full of the baby�*s families, lawyers, the police officers, thejournalists, a lot of thejurors had come back to hear the full life sentence handed down to lucy letby, the nurse murdered seven babies and attempted to kill six more infants. but the dock was empty. and it has been described as a final act of wickedness on a letby�*s part. the decision of a coward, it has been said. unwilling to listen to the most emotional and moving testimony that you will ever hear anywhere. we�*ve seen it many times before, we spoke to the sister of zara aleena earlier on who has tried to change the law since april of last year after zara aleena was murdered in london in 2021. the killers of sabina nester, 0livia pratt korbell also failing to hear sentencing. the prime minister, about a year ago or more, when he was campaigning to be the conservative leader, he said he was going to change the law. we are still discussing it, we are still debating it. plenty of people getting in contact this morning whether it is phoning or texting, saying log, it should happen, we should get these people into court to face what the families are saying, the impact of their crimes. the deep emotional impact on so many of these cases. but there is the practical side to it. we heard from sir bob neill earlier on, conservative mp, chair of the justice committee, saying, how do you go about it? are you forcibly bringing these people into court? abbey following the american model? is that what we are hoping to do? some of our listeners and viewers getting in contact to say that they should take away some of their privileges in court, had to their sentencing, not so easy in the case of a lucy letby, when you are talking about someone who has a full life sentence. but do we need to force the guilty to face court? that is the central question this morning. let�*s get to some more of your calls. mohammed is in maidstone, trainee lawyer, hello to you. maidstone, trainee lawyer, hello to ou. ., , good you. good morning, chris. good morning. _ you. good morning, chris. good morning. what _ you. good morning, chris. good morning, what are _ you. good morning, chris. good morning, what are your- you. good morning, chris. good| morning, what are your thoughts you. good morning, chris. good - morning, what are your thoughts when you are listening to this debate this morning? i you are listening to this debate this morning?— you are listening to this debate this morning? you are listening to this debate this morninr? ., ., , , ., this morning? i want to be spot on, i believe this morning? i want to be spot on, i believe the _ this morning? i want to be spot on, i believe the guilty... _ this morning? i want to be spot on, i believe the guilty... i _ this morning? i want to be spot on, i believe the guilty... i strongly - i believe the guilty... i strongly believe the guilty should not be forced to court, it should be the decision of the honourable court and honourablejudges. it is because if in the case of lucy letby, if she is in the case of lucy letby, if she is in the case of lucy letby, if she is in the court and the parents, i am a parent, if the parents or lucy and she showed no remorse, she was absolutely normal, i think this would further shatter their mental health and the life of the parent. and on the other hand, this is the number one news since yesterday, if she is outside in the public, a camera could capture her and she is showing no remorse, she is absolutely normal, she is not sad at what she has done and that it is finished, i think it will give further damage to the people, so many people... my point here is that it should be totally on the discretion of the honourable court. and if the honourable court, as you put it, if the judge says that they need to come and face the court, they need to hear what these families have been through, what they are continuing to go through, and the offender says, no, not into it, not going to do it, then what? if thejudge says, it, not going to do it, then what? if the judge says, because courts are venerate honourable places, if the judge says i think the judge will be right, the guilty should be in the court, but if the judge decides that the guilty should not be in the court, i think they should not be in the court. that be in the court, i think they should not be in the court.— not be in the court. that is not the oint. not be in the court. that is not the point- the — not be in the court. that is not the point. the question _ not be in the court. that is not the point. the question we're - not be in the court. that is not the point. the question we're asking l not be in the court. that is not the | point. the question we're asking is point. the question we�*re asking is if thejudge says, point. the question we�*re asking is if the judge says, 0k, point. the question we�*re asking is if thejudge says, ok, the point. the question we�*re asking is if the judge says, ok, the offender needs to come to court and the offender says they are not going to court, and in the case of somebody like lucy letby who has a full life sentence, you can add you stare sentence, you can add you stare sentence, she is going to be in prison for the rest of her life, then what do you— prison for the rest of her life, then what do you dothen the guilty should be forced _ then what do you dothen the guilty should be forced to _ then what do you dothen the guilty should be forced to take _ then what do you dothen the guilty should be forced to take to - then what do you dothen the guilty should be forced to take to the - should be forced to take to the court. 50 should be forced to take to the court, ,., should be forced to take to the court, y., ., should be forced to take to the court. ., , i, , should be forced to take to the court. ., , , court. so you would physically force them into court. _ court. so you would physically force them into court. absolutely. - them into court. absolutely. absolutely- _ them into court. absolutely. absolutely. judges - them into court. absolutely. absolutely. judges are - them into court. absolutely. i absolutely. judges are experts them into court. absolutely. - absolutely. judges are experts in these cases. if they think they should be fast, then they should be. lets bring in a former 0ld should be fast, then they should be. lets bring in a former old bailey judge the offer of the book unlawful killings. good morning. thank you for talking to us. mohammed makes it sound so simple. the judge says the offender needs to come to court, up to court they come. we know that is not the way it would work in the future, don�*t we? i�*m not the way it would work in the future, don't we?— future, don't we? i'm afraid it wouldn't _ future, don't we? i'm afraid it wouldn't work _ future, don't we? i'm afraid it wouldn't work like _ future, don't we? i'm afraid it wouldn't work like that. - future, don't we? i'm afraid it wouldn't work like that. at. future, don't we? i'm afraid it| wouldn't work like that. at the wouldn�*t work like that. at the moment, thejudge doesn�*t wouldn�*t work like that. at the moment, the judge doesn�*t have the power to order a defendant to come into the court for sentence, but a judge has the power the phone and make contact with a governor of a prison and ask prison governors to bring a defendant to court. the prison governor then will have to go through a certain procedure and make certain decisions as to whether or not it is necessary for the hearing. and whether or not it can be achieved, reasonably achieved. both of those, at the moment, a very big queries. of those, at the moment, a very big aueries. , , , , queries. this is it, because we soke queries. this is it, because we spoke to _ queries. this is it, because we spoke to tana _ queries. this is it, because we spoke to tana adkin _ queries. this is it, because we spoke to tana adkin earlier. queries. this is it, because we | spoke to tana adkin earlier on, queries. this is it, because we - spoke to tana adkin earlier on, the vice chair of the criminal bar association, and she admitted, she is not an expert in human rights law, but at the moment you start talking bad governors are taking privileges away from offenders, then all of a sudden there is a danger into running into the human rights. there is all sorts of problems like that. maybe the best place to start is to stand back and say that what you are trying to achieve with a sentencing hearing. a sentencing hearing is not about a defendant. the defendant had their day in court by then. the sentencing hearing is one of the most solemn and great moments in any murder trial, whether judge is actually setting out the facts, as he sees them be, setting out the sentence and the reasons for the sentence in those facts. he is talking to the bereaved, to victims, and he is talking to all of us. a prosecution is not a person to person a thing. a prosecution is brought in the name of us. the public. and thejudges brought in the name of us. the public. and the judges of the facts are the jewellery who are us, the public. and so the judge are the jewellery who are us, the public. and so thejudge is are the jewellery who are us, the public. and so the judge is talking to us. i defendant —— if a defendant was allowed to hijack that event, of course what everybody wants is that a defendant will stand there and listen and be penitent, but the chances of that happening with many defendants, i can�*t speak about letby, i don�*t know her personally, but to the charges —— the chances of that happening with many defendants are very low. and the chances of misbehaviour or of getting any sign of penitence are not as high as one would hope, and if nothing were to be turned into a circus, it would be the worst thing that we could imagine. the worst thing that we could imauine. ., .,, , the worst thing that we could imaine. ., .,, , , ., the worst thing that we could imauine. ., .,, , , ., , imagine. that has been brought up in a bit of time — imagine. that has been brought up in a bit of time is _ imagine. that has been brought up in a bit of time is as _ imagine. that has been brought up in a bit of time is as well— imagine. that has been brought up in a bit of time is as well this _ a bit of time is as well this morning. we will come back to you in just a moment. we are also going to speak to bring hughes shortly, the father of pc nicola hughes who was killed by dale cregan, you might well remember that incredibly distressing and upsetting murder. we will speak to bryn hughes injust a moment. more of your calls to come as well. at 9a7, we willjust bring you this news. a number of people dying as a result of drug misuse in scotland has fallen. in 2021, scotland has fallen. in 2021, scotland saw the worst death toll from drug use per capita in europe. we can speak to our scotland correspondent james we can speak to our scotland correspondentjames sharp. hello to you james. what are we looking at in terms of the fall here? what is the actual number?— terms of the fall here? what is the actual number? what we are talking about is a figure _ actual number? what we are talking about is a figure of _ actual number? what we are talking about is a figure of 1330 _ actual number? what we are talking about is a figure of 1330 in - actual number? what we are talking about is a figure of 1330 in 2021 - about is a figure of 1330 in 2021 and it is down to 1051 last year. that is a drop of 279 deaths, clearly a very significant drop and in fact a national records of scotland which puts out to these figures says that it is the biggest drop there has been in drug deaths since they started recording them in the way that they do at the moment. it does look like a significant change. 0bviously, it does look like a significant change. obviously, it is also still a very big problem, but this is quite a big change.— a very big problem, but this is quite a big change. what are we ”uttin it quite a big change. what are we putting it down _ quite a big change. what are we putting it down to? _ quite a big change. what are we putting it down to? it _ quite a big change. what are we putting it down to? it may - quite a big change. what are we putting it down to? it may be i quite a big change. what are we putting it down to? it may be toj quite a big change. what are we i putting it down to? it may be to do olicies of putting it down to? it may be to do policies of the _ putting it down to? it may be to do policies of the scottish _ putting it down to? it may be to do| policies of the scottish government over the last couple of years. those figures that you are talking about being in the news a while ago, the scottish government addressed them and realised that there was really a crisis that they had to deal with. someone of the things they was they brought in increased use of a drug called naloxone, that can be administered to someone who has had an overdose and it can prevent them from dying. there is also hold wider suite of services that they brought in to try to help drug users and you can expect scottish ministers, perhaps the first minister even today, hamza yusuf, talking about the fact that their policy appears to working, albeit there is still a hill to climb. it seems that it could be making progress. i wonder what this will _ could be making progress. i wonder what this will mean _ could be making progress. i wonder what this will mean for _ could be making progress. i wonder what this will mean for the - could be making progress. i wonder what this will mean for the scottish | what this will mean for the scottish government�*s argument, it was only a couple of months ago, where they were calling for the decriminalisation of drugs. were calling for the decriminalisation of dru:s. ., , decriminalisation of drugs. that is ri . ht. decriminalisation of drugs. that is riuht. i decriminalisation of drugs. that is right- ithink— decriminalisation of drugs. that is right. i think they _ decriminalisation of drugs. that is right. i think they will _ decriminalisation of drugs. that is right. i think they will probably i right. i think they will probably still carry on arguing for that because there is still a big pub in scotland. if you compare it to the whole of the uk, the death rate in scotland is 2.7 times what it is when you take the uk in its entirety. you could certainly still argue that scotland has a big problem that needs to be addressed and i think that is what the scottish government will carry on doing. but their critics will point to the fact that they are making progress without those policy changes, so they will argue that they may not be needed.- changes, so they will argue that they may not be needed. thank you ve much they may not be needed. thank you very much indeed. _ they may not be needed. thank you very much indeed. that _ they may not be needed. thank you very much indeed. that is _ they may not be needed. thank you very much indeed. that is our- very much indeed. that is our scotland correspondent. the number of people dying as a result of drug misuse dying in scotland has fallen. in 2021, scotland saw the worst death rate due to drug use per capita in europe. that figure is falling. the question we�*re asking for the next ten minutes is should we be forcing the face court? just a couple of your text... we need to stop being so wet, says michael, about the convicted of refusing to attend their sentencing, shackle them and take them there. the americans don�*t have an issue or concern about it so why do we? it is an insult to the victims that we don�*t have the stomach to deal with the victims. —— to deal with the convicted. i have been in an american courtroom when the situation has played out. it is a magnet that has been brought forward. clive and ken says we are in a rush to bring out the stocks and ducking stores because of the possibilities that could possibly arrive in forcing the defendant to face court. are we a civilised society or one that wishes to take us back to a medieval time? as long asjustice is done, that us back to a medieval time? as long as justice is done, that should us back to a medieval time? as long asjustice is done, that should be enough. that is clive texting in. bryn hughes, i mentioned we would speak to the father of pc nicola hughes who was killed by dale cregan. good morning to you, thank you so much for talking to us. what were your thoughts as you are seeing this play out yesterday? i were your thoughts as you are seeing this play out yesterday?— this play out yesterday? i guess from both points _ this play out yesterday? i guess from both points of _ this play out yesterday? i guess from both points of view - this play out yesterday? i guess from both points of view as - this play out yesterday? i guess from both points of view as a i from both points of view as a grieving father and as a prison officer who has been involved in carrying somebody into the docks, for me, having experienced it and taken part in it on a number of occasions, it is really distressing for the families to witness, it is really distressing for the other people in the court, and all you get is a vile abuse from the defendant. i think what we need to remember is that these people have got total disregard for human life because they have committed the crime they have. they are not going to suddenly see the light and become the most well—behaved person and they are not going to sit there and be told to be quiet. it is all part of their make—up, really. quiet. it is all part of their make-up, really.- quiet. it is all part of their make-u, reall . ~ ., ., , , make-up, really. what happened in our make-up, really. what happened in your case? — make-up, really. what happened in your case? do _ make-up, really. what happened in your case? do you _ make-up, really. what happened in your case? do you mind _ make-up, really. what happened in your case? do you mind are - make-up, really. what happened in your case? do you mind are just - your case? do you mind arejust taking us through what the situation was far? ~ , ., taking us through what the situation was far? . , ., . ., ., was far? with my daughter nicola? this person — was far? with my daughter nicola? this person who — was far? with my daughter nicola? this person who eyles _ was far? with my daughter nicola? this person who eyles refused - was far? with my daughter nicola? this person who eyles refused to l was far? with my daughter nicola? i this person who eyles refused to say his name, he attended court. 0ne this person who eyles refused to say his name, he attended court. one day where he didn�*t attend court and the prison didn�*t bring him, i know the procedures, hejust didn�*t prison didn�*t bring him, i know the procedures, he just didn�*t attend court because he didn�*t want to. again, that shows the total disregard for procedures and for the victim�*s families. i think itjust adds to the pain even more, but on the flip side of that, do we want to see that distressing scene carried out in courts where the families are being abused? that out in courts where the families are being abused?— being abused? that is the balance, isn't it, ultimately? _ being abused? that is the balance, isn't it, ultimately? the _ being abused? that is the balance, isn't it, ultimately? the idea - isn�*t it, ultimately? the idea that... we are talking like it is really simple, you just say, ok, we will bring that person in and all as well. but if it becomes about them, and we have heard this more than once, then of course that is going to add to your pain. it once, then of course that is going to add to your pain.— to add to your pain. it will. just b the to add to your pain. it will. just by the very _ to add to your pain. it will. just by the very fact _ to add to your pain. it will. just by the very fact that _ to add to your pain. it will. just by the very fact that they - to add to your pain. it will. just by the very fact that they have | by the very fact that they have refused to attend court, they are usually in their cells, they are usually in their cells, they are usually in the court building by that time and then did decide that they don�*t want to go into the dock to listen to what the judge has got to listen to what the judge has got to say, the argument is lost because you are going to carry them up by restraints, i have been involved in numerous ones where we have wrapped in towels around peoples heads to stop them spitting at us. do you want to witness that? does the family want to have that added to the grief even more? is family want to have that added to the grief even more?— the grief even more? is this when ou had the grief even more? is this when you had to — the grief even more? is this when you had to bring _ the grief even more? is this when you had to bring people _ the grief even more? is this when you had to bring people up- the grief even more? is this when you had to bring people up to - the grief even more? is this when you had to bring people up to the| you had to bring people up to the courtroom to be part of the trial before the sentencing? for sentencing. _ before the sentencing? for sentencing. that _ before the sentencing? for sentencing. that is - before the sentencing? for sentencing. that is what i before the sentencing? fori sentencing. that is what you before the sentencing? for - sentencing. that is what you would have to no sentencing. that is what you would have to go through. _ sentencing. that is what you would have to go through. again, - sentencing. that is what you would have to go through. again, this - sentencing. that is what you would have to go through. again, this is i have to go through. again, this is the whole point, isn�*t it? this gets the whole point, isn�*t it? this gets the heart of the matter. people can agree that we would like to see those people in court but actually winning to get them to the practicality of it, potentially you would be talking about shackling them, gagging them, that sounds extreme but if you are talking about bringing them into court and making sure that they are not going to disrupt proceedings, that is the sort of territory you are getting into isn�*t it? sort of territory you are getting into isn't it?— into isn't it? you are talking hollywood _ into isn't it? you are talking hollywood style _ into isn't it? you are talking hollywood style hannibal. into isn't it? you are talking - hollywood style hannibal lecter things are due? they restrained and handcuffed, you can�*t gag them, because obviously there are human rights coming into the fact. what you are left with a somebody shouting, swearing, spitting, screaming, disrupting anything. that is part of... as a sociopath. the person who killed nicola is described as one of the biggest sociopath, so they actually feed off that sort of grief. so do we really want that? at the end of the day, we know they are going to go away for the rest of their lives. they have got nothing to lose. there is nothing that can happen to them, you can add another five years to the sentence because they have already got the full sentence. i think what you tend to find is that the type of prisoner who is going to receive a shorter sentence wouldn�*t risk doing that because they know there is some sort of consequence at the end of it. it tends to be the long term life sentence prisoners who know they are going away for a long time and they have got nothing to lose. just finally, what was it like when you had that opportunity to give your impact statement to the court, because we heard from sabina nessa�*s sister earlier on in the programme who had been calling for a change in the law since april of last year, and her sister was murdered the year before that, and she was saying that this was such an important moment for our families this was such an important moment for ourfamilies and it this was such an important moment for our families and it was so distressing to hear that testimony yesterday, wasn�*t it? but for many of those families, to not have that person there, would have made it a different proposition, wouldn�*t it? they are able to describe what it meant to them and what it continues to mean for them, but not to the person who has inflicted that pain on them. it person who has inflicted that pain on them. , ., ., , person who has inflicted that pain onthem. ,., ., , , . on them. it is a really difficult process. _ on them. it is a really difficult process. as — on them. it is a really difficult process, as you _ on them. it is a really difficult process, as you can _ on them. it is a really difficult process, as you can imagine, | on them. it is a really difficult - process, as you can imagine, when you are writing a victim personal statement. you are trying to sum up, in nicola�*s case, you are trying to sum up 23 years and how best to do that for the court where the judge can refer to certain parts which will have the most impact. again, for me, it took days of writing it and rewriting it. becoming an emotional when you are trying to think back. 0bviously, emotional when you are trying to think back. obviously, you can�*t just put the nice things in. you have to look at the negative things, you are never going to see them getting married, you are never going to get the opportunity to walk them down the aisle, you will never see them have their own children. so those are the sorts of points that you need to get across. i can understand how distressing it is when the perpetrator is not facing you and court to listen to that. but like i have said, on the flip side, do we really want to see their ego? —— feed their ego. i5 do we really want to see their ego? —— feed their ego. is a do we really want to see their ego? -- feed their ego.— -- feed their ego. is a resident of manchester. _ -- feed their ego. is a resident of manchester. i— -- feed their ego. is a resident of manchester, i remember - -- feed their ego. is a resident of manchester, i remember so - -- feed their ego. is a resident of manchester, i remember so welll -- feed their ego. is a resident of i manchester, i remember so well at the heinous crimes that dale cregan committed answer all the very best to you and to your family, committed answer all the very best to you and to yourfamily, brain, thank you for talking to us, i appreciated. thank you very much. just a very brief word withjoanne early who is from some national, they support people bereaved by murder and manslaughter. joanne, what are you making this debate? good morning. iwasjust listening to what bryn had to say there in describing writing a victim impact statement, you know every word is carefully thought out, and the importance of the statement says this is the one time that a family has two exercise their rights in a criminaljustice process where there feel they have no control and are no rights over the court process and this is about one opportunity, their one right, to put their views forward about how they have been impacted. and to have that taken away by an offender refusing to attend sentencing is rubbing the family of a little bit ofjustice. that�*s in my eyes, and we represent the views of many families. igrate that's in my eyes, and we represent the views of many families. we have heard of the — the views of many families. we have heard of the practicalities, _ the views of many families. we have heard of the practicalities, haven't i heard of the practicalities, haven�*t we? the difficulties of actually making this work.— we? the difficulties of actually making this work. yes. you know, this is not — making this work. yes. you know, this is not an _ making this work. yes. you know, this is not an easy... _ making this work. yes. you know, this is not an easy... i _ making this work. yes. you know, this is not an easy... i don't - making this work. yes. you know, this is not an easy... i don't think| this is not an easy... i don�*t think there is an easy solution to this. what i do think is listening to jabina earlier, she made a really good point where whatever is decided, victim�*s families must be consulted on this. decided, victim's families must be consulted on this.— consulted on this. thank you very much indeed. _ consulted on this. thank you very much indeed, joanne. _ consulted on this. thank you very much indeed, joanne. it - consulted on this. thank you very much indeed, joanne. it is - consulted on this. thank you very much indeed, joanne. it is time l consulted on this. thank you very | much indeed, joanne. it is time to say goodbye to viewers on bbc news and bbc two. thank you for your company this morning. we are continuing this conversation on five live, so you can listen on five live, so you can listen on five live, so you can listen radio, smart speaker and on bbc sounds. live from london. this is bbc news. let�*s start in thailand — where the former prime minister, thaksin shinawatra, has been taken to prison — just hours after returning from 15 years of self—imposed exile. a uk cabinet minister says the inquiry into the serial baby killer, lucy letby, should consider whether nhs managers need to be regulated in the same way as medical staff. president biden pledges long—term government support for hawaii, after touring the wildfire damage in maui. a new study says mri scans are a more reliable way for screening men for prostate cancer. hello, i�*m frankie mccamley.

Related Keywords

Chris Warburton , Phone In , Nation , Nicky Campbell , Lucy Letby , Families , Sentencing , Courtroom , Hearing , Chance , Babies , Say , Stories , Lawyers , Police Officers , Life Sentence , Dock , Final Act Of Wickedness On Letby S , Nurse , Infants , Jurors , 11 , 8 , Six , Seven , Decision , Testimony , Parents , Emotional , Coward , Andy Malkinson Case , Kind , Sabina Nessa , Killers , Zara Aleena , Olivia Pratt Korbell , 18 , Manchester Court , Offender Doesn T , 08085 , 909693 , Proceedings , Cell , The American Way , Law , Rishi Sunak , Keir Starmer , Tory Leader , The Labour Leader , Some , Arguments , Elected , Shamefully Exploited Loophole , One , Concerns , Doctor , Situation , Calls , News , Hospital Managers , Doctors , Nurses , Texts , Thatjust , Stephen Breary , Vital , Experience , Staff , Prostate Cancer , Blood Tests , Mri Scans , Nhs , Scientists , Figures , Pe , Men , Pupils , Research , Charity , Secondary School , In London , England , University College Hospital , 4000 , 300 , Scottish Government , Schools , Concern , Sport , Youth Sport Trust , Matter , England Women S Football Team , Uk , Two , Players , World Cup Final On Sunday , Heathrow , Spain , 0 , 1 , Listening , Thanks , Something , Text , Manchester , 85058 , 909693 Text , Sentencing Hearing , Politicians , Solution , Make Change , King , Legislation , Speech , Kings Speech , Who Eyles , Someone , Crimes , Danger , Testimonies , Road , America , Callers , Sister , East London , 2021 , September 2021 , 28 , Family , Offenders , Force , Family Doinu , Mark , Doing , Day By , Memories , Caettin , 0k , Fact , Trauma , Conversation , April 2022 , 2022 , Example , Laws , Leadership Campaign , Leadership , Campaign , Victims , Defendants , Feelings , Back , Victim Impact Statement , Ourfeelings , Isn T It , Front , Perpetrators , Real , Teeth , Kick , It , Cycle , Place , Hagar , Option , Family Liaison Officer , S Murder , Icc , Life , Choice , Guy , Earth , People , Right , Sjust , Gobsmacked , Lots , Mother , Friends , Ou Gobsmacked , Anything , Offender , Impact , Emotion , Statements , Display , Aside , Introduction , Ve , Level , Emotion Anywhere , Aren , Victim , Words , Them , Ractical , Him , Ust Absurd , Isn , Want To Go , Side , Options , Court Room , One Way , Eyes , Sabina S Law , Ears , Fori Sentencing , Forefront , Emotions Court , Emotions , T Matter , Issue , Case , Control , In Control , Sentence , There Case , Victim S Family , Famil , Sentence Isn , 2 , Court , They Don T , Heard , Sister S Casey , Holding Cell , Element , Stream , Aspects , Thing , Input Victims , Input , Everyone , Heart , Stephen In Weston Super Mare , Acts , Bit , Result , Consideration , Party , Sword , Most , Risk , Intercom , Sensing , Part , Another , Answer , Positives , Negatives , Shout Out , Family Members , Famil Members , Need Family Members , Need , Disturbance , Needs , Anyone , Time , Willingness , Things , Talk , Ijust , Onthis , Leral , M , Defendant , Process , Oman , Wall , Couple , Three , Discussion , Debate , Hard , It Isjust A Hard One , Imperative , Us , Wejust , Call , Calling , Politician , Best , Word , Bob Neill , Justice , Committee , Chair , Thejustice , Commentary , Conservative , Reasons , Glance , Everybody , Behaviour , Others , Problem , Murder , Ability , Caller , Particular , Whites , Judge , Somebody , Directory , Judges , Thejudges , Charge , Core , Course , Trial , Instance , Faroes , Witness , Demonstration , Shouting Abuse , Trickiest Part , Intervening , Catharsis , Help , Trickiest Art Of Problem , Sentence , Threat , Nothing , Idea , Cases , Sentences , Life Sentences , Stop , Sto , Or Sentences , Eole , Peeple , Sto , Aha , Number , Power , It Stop , Robbery , Gbh , Well , Relation , Tariff , Custody , Prison , Sorts , Means , Conditions , Point , Human Rights , Privileges , I Rights , Environment , Human Riahts , Silver Bullet , Think , Worth , There , Single , Investigating , Robabl , Perpetrator , Eye , Everything , 19th Ofjuly , 19 , Lot , Response , Verdict , Witnessjustice , Being , S Speech , 7th , November , 7 , 7th Of November , Repeat , Court Boycott , Respect , King S Speech , Courts , Views , Conservation , Judiciary , System , Order , Mind , Bear , Process Works , Inclusion , More , Dither , Top , Ear , Delay , Rental Leg , Auear , Ear , Sort , Issues , Personally , San , Career , Barrister , Desire , Head , Perception , Dan In Chichester , Morning , Prison Privileges , Mentioning , Make , Harm , Responsibility , Feeljustice , Reality , Damage , Dave There , Plymouth , Country , Liam , 21 , Minimum , Solitary Confinement , 20 , Race , Crime , Prisoner , Foot , Vice Chair , Vice , Lets Brina , Points , Listeners , View , Bar Association , Ways , Suggestion , Forms , Tom , Huntan , Torture , Whether , Recordings , 50 , Work , It Stands , Prisoners , Probation Day , Services , Probation Services , Confinement , Years Ii , Written I Confinement , Yes , Human , Prisoner Deserves , Risoner , Removal , The Point , Ifi Face The Victims , Opportunity , Terms , Lucy , Put , Got , View It , Is , Leave , Way , Whole , Fear , Ultimately , Primary , Individual , Ultimatel , Restraint , Spring , Iag , Thank Ou , Ia , Viewers , Rachel , Thinking , Leader , Prime Minister , Opposition , Breakfast , Doctorface , Irish , Law Changes , Promises , Sarah , Justice Committee , Trade , Conclusion , L , Opinions , Trade Enforce , Whatare , Michael O Brien , Thoughts , Mistakes , Hts , Birmingham , Guildford , Guildford Four The M253 , Andrew Milton O Brien , Guildford Four , M253 , Birmingham Six , Four , Whatever , Girl , Hadn T , Andrew Milton , Milton , Arrogance , Son , Hospital , Appalling , Revenge , Sol , Profession , Believer , Arms , Weren T True , Programme , Stand , Beginning , Weren T True , London , Saying , Reason , Lateracquitted , Story , Alan Hall , New Zealand , Literallyjust , Sides , Relatives , Literativ Story , Come Out , New Literallyjust , Itjust , I Don T Know , Cheryl , News Headlines , Didn T , I Cheryl , Che L , Edinburgh , Culprit , Consequences , Actions , Notjust , Argument , Has , It S , Question , The Act Again , Repeat The Act , Court Hearing , Wasn , Phone Number , Killer , Face , 909693 That , Consultant , Bbc , Standing , Headlines , Warnings , 33am , 9 , 33 , Leaders , Mri Scan , Screening Men , University College London , Researchers , Hopes , 10 , Defence , Ministry , Border , Region , Flights , Moscow , Drones , Scans , Russia , Bryansk , Difficulties , Airline Figures , The News , Bags , Pandemic , Industry , Shourjo Sarkar , 26 Million , Carney Chukwuemeka , Signing , Fee , Goalkeeper , Departure , Who , Chelsea , Djordje Petrovic , New England Revolution , Stamford Bridge , On Loan , Kepa Arrizabalaga , Sjoined , Real Madrid , 4m , 14m , Arsenal Defender , Arsenal Manager , Time Wasting , Knee , Mikel Arteta , Crystal Palace , Takehiro Tomiyasu , Carri Richardson , Women , Throw In , First , Sprinter , American , Cards , Drug Ban , Sha , Budapest , Tokyo 0lympics , 100 , List , Community , Stadium , Gold , Host Venues , Rugby World Cup , Sunderland , Stadium Of Light , Twickenham , York , 2025 , 10 65 , Eight , Hundred , Action , Atmosphere , Bbc Iplayer , Justice System , Kids , Sounds , Loads , Education , Cuts , Four Thousand , 5 , Ten , Drop , Olympics , Legacy , London Olympics , 2012 , 12 , Children , Health , Half , Physical Activity , 60 , S School , Pe Lessons , March , Quantity , Struggle , Area , Inspiration , Cause , Parent , Mental Health , Clubs , We , Childhood , Link , Adult Hood , School , Teacher , Return , Thejournalists , Thejurors , Final Act Of Wickedness On A Letby S , Times , Anywhere , 0livia Pratt Korbell , Sabina Nester , Contact , Texting , Conservative Leader , Phoning , Many , Model , Abbey , Trainee Lawyer , Central , Mohammed , Maidstone , Spot On , Chris , Morninr , You , Honourablejudges , Remorse , Hand , Public , Camera , Discretion , Thejudge , Places , Oint , Rest , Y , Offer , Experts , 0ld , Book , Old Bailey , Killings , Thejudge Doesn , Wouldn T Work Future , Don T We , Phone , Doesn , Wouldn T Future , Don T We Future , Procedure , Governor , Prison Governors , Prison Governor , Decisions , Queries , This Is It , Tana Adkin , Both , Tana , Big Aueries , We Soke , Human Rights Law , Expert , Governors , Problems , Murder Trial , Facts , Setting , Bereaved , Name , Prosecution , Jewellery , In The Name , The Public , All Of Us , Event , Chances , Letby , Penitent , Sign , Charges , Penitence , Misbehaviour , Circus , Imagine , Imauine , Imaine , Father , Pc , Nicola Hughes , Dale Cregan , Hughes , Scotland , Bryn Hughes Injust A Moment , Drug Misuse , At 9a7 , Correspondent , Drug Use , Capita , Death Toll , Europe , Hello To You James , Correspondentjames Sharp , Figure , Deaths , 1330 , 279 , 1051 , Drug , National Records Of Scotland , Change , Policies , Olicies , Big Change A , 0bviously , Uttin , Use , Crisis , Naloxone , Suite , Ministers , First Minister , Overdose , Drug Users , Hamza Yusuf , Making Progress , Policy , Government S Argument , Hill , Drugs , Ithink Decriminalisation , Death Rate , Decriminalisation , Ri , Riuht , Big Pub In Scotland , Dru S , Ht , Critics , Entirety , 2 7 , Policy Changes , Needed Changes , Progress , Misuse , Death Rate Due , Per Capita , Convicted , Americans Don T , Insult , Stomach , Society , Magnet , Possibilities , Stores , Rush , Ducking , Clive Texting In , Stocks , Ken , Asjustice , Bryn Hughes , Play , Prison Officer , Docks , Points Of View , Ai , Abuse , Occasions , Human Life , Person , Disregard , Flight , Make Up , Daughter , Reall , Arejust , Quiet , Really Quiet , Procedures , Prison Didn , Attend , Person Who Eyles , Eyles , Hejust , Pain , Victim S Families , Scene , Flip , Balance , Add , Cells , Just B , Peoples , Restraints , Ones , Towels , Grief , Practicality , Territory , Gagging Them , Shackling Them , Hannibal , Style , Gag , Hollywood , Hannibal Lecter , Sociopath , Somebody Shouting , Screaming , Spitting , Swearing , Lives , Type , Nothing To Lose , Five , Life Sentence Prisoners , Sentence Wouldn , Consequence , Statement , Proposition , It Person , Personal Statement , Pain Onthem , Nicola S Case , Parts , Sum Up , 23 , Rewriting , Aisle , Resident , Ego , Flip Side , Welll , National , Brain , The Very Best , Yourfamily , Withjoanne Early , Bryn , Joanne , Writing A Victim Impact Statement , Manslaughter , Iwasjust , Rights , Importance , Exercise , Ofjustice , Igrate , In My Eyes , Haven T , The Practicalities , Practicalities , Bbc News , Decided , Goodbye , Bbc Two , Company , This , Smart Speaker , Radio , Thailand , Thaksin Shinawatra , Exile , 15 , Biden , Cabinet Minister , Baby Killer , Managers , Inquiry , Government Support , Hawaii , Wildfire Damage , Study , Maui , Frankie Mccamley ,