And doctors are life savers. They are incredible. And we heard a lot in the trial about thinking the unthinkable. And, you know, no one wanted to think that this could be possible, as you heard there in the clip from the father. How could a nurse on a ward do Something Like this . And i think, you know, the manipulation, the fact that she altered records, she was clever, she was calculating, and she pulled the wool over the eyes of her colleagues who did not think everfor a minute that she was responsible. You know, it started with her being an association. She was in the room. She was around a lot. And that raised concerns. But, you know, i dont think anyone actually thought a nurse was operating in plain sight on a ward and in fact, using the most innocuous of materials milk, air, saline, to attack and kill the babies that shes looking after. Tell us a little more, caroline, about what we learned about lucy letby during this trial, because, of course, there was focus on her social media posts, on the messages that she exchanged with friends, pictures of her on nights out, on holidays. Such a contrast that was presented between this young woman who was seemingly so normal, so ordinary, and yet at the same time was committing the most heinous of crimes. Yeah. I mean, we heard a lot about Text Messages that she would send when she left the ward to various colleagues. And someone described it to me as what they would possibly deem to be sort of narcissism, but almost covert narcissism. So its not about me. Its about the babies. Its about the families, those poor families. That sort of morbid curiosity, if you like, of the families, you know, when theyre saying goodbye to their children, you know, dressing them, doing memory boxes with them. And then as you allude to as well, you know, she was a normal 20 something and shes been described to me as vanilla, you know, sort of nondescript. But then we knew she had a normal social life. She had friends. She actually described the nurses on the unit as her family. You know, they were close. She went Salsa Dancing with one of them. You know, she went to ibiza. And in fact, what we heard in the trial was when she came back from ibiza before the attack, then on baby. Attack, then on baby 0. And then his brother, baby p was on the very next shift and she sent a text the night before that said, ill be back with a bang. And the following day we heard that two of the triplets, baby 0 and baby p were attacked and died. And also, caroline, as part of that evidence, there were among the very normal things that were found in her home diaries, photographs. There were things like a a picture of a Sympathy Card that she had sent to the parents of one of those babies. And there were these notes, these handwritten notes, where she would scrawl. She wrote on one of them, i did this. Yeah, she did. And i mean, fathom it. Its unfathomable. Weve spoken to the Senior Officer in the case who is convinced she left those notes for them to find. She knew that the police were investigating. She had been moved off that ward and they were talking to her colleagues. And they are firmly of the belief that she knew they were investigating. And yet, when they go and arrest her and youll have seen the footage of that arrest by now, they find, you know, a Treasure Trove of evidence. You know, those notes you mention and a handwritten i am evil. I did this. I dont deserve to live, on post it notes. And then dozens and dozens and dozens of handover sheets. So sheets that should never be removed from a hospital unit, taken home, put in bags, shopping bags, under beds, in garages. You know, i mean, itjust goes back to the fact that there is currently no motive. These families have some answers. And certainly some of them we know that for four of these babies, there is no verdict yet in these cases that might come back. There may be a retrial. The prosecution are now considering that. And they have 28 days or theyve asked for 28 days to consider whether theyre going to retry lucy letby on six counts of Attempted Murder, which the jury could not find verdicts on today. So those families dont have answers. But even for the families who do have convictions today, they have no answer to the question of why. There is no reason, no motive, nothing that anyone can find in her background that could allude to why this was happening. And of course, what we know is that injune 2015, Nothing Happened that made lucy letby start doing this. Theres no evidence that some event took place that caused her to start attacking the children she was caring for. And, you know, we now know that the police are involved in a medical review of all the babies that have been in her care dating back to 2011. We also heard caroline, it really, i think, plays into what youve been saying there about her personality, about the way that she was considered on the ward, the fact that she was like that, she had friends, that, in fact, when concerns started to be raised about her behavior, about her presence, when these babies were having these catastrophic episodes. In fact, in the first instance, they were dismissed. Weve heard consultants who worked on the ward at the conclusion of this trial say that they tried to whistle blow and in fact, their concerns werent taken seriously, were they . Well, they werent taken seriously, anna, for months. And that is why, obviously, we now know there is going to be an inquiry. And certainly, you know, the parents of baby l and baby m, who we have spoken to, are demanding an inquiry because, you know, what we know is betweenjune and july 2015, three babies died on that unit and they died unexpectedly. And that was the key. And weve been told by both medics on the ward and also by the police that even in a Neonatal Unit where babies are fragile and premature and need a lot of care, they you know, they come in and they grow and they go home, unless the doctors are aware of something. And what was the key in this case . It was that it was unexpected. They didnt expect these babies to collapse. And that was the problem. And you mentioned that, you know, they couldnt for a moment think it was her. She was liked on the ward. She had friends on the ward. They were a family. I think really crucially actually on that was that she was seen as the reliable nurse, you know, the safe pair of hands. She worked the night shifts that werent that popular. She worked the weekends. She worked when they were short staffed, she came in, you know, she was always there wanting to be in nursery one, that intensive care nursery, wanting to help the sickest children. And what we now know is that was not about being a nurse and caring for children and helping to save them and helping them to go home. We heard from the police and the cps on the court steps today, anna, that they were going home, those parents, after lucy letby had attacked their children, to empty cots because she was using her role, the fact that she was relied on, the fact that she was competent, the fact that she was liked to attack. You talked caroline very vividly about the tools that lucy letby used to carry out these murders and how innocuous they they were, the salin, the insulin, the air. And in fact, that was a key part of the defense case, was it, when they were trying to refute these allegations, where they were trying to say she is innocent of these crimes, which, of course, we know now she wasnt . They were saying that this is all Circumstantial Evidence that none of this points to the the the behavior of a killer. Well, interestingly, youre right. It was circumstantial. You know, it is circumstantial. There is no smoking gun. Nobody saw her do anything. Well, they did, didnt they . They saw her inject down a long line. But shes a Nurse Injecting down a long line. Now, if youre a parent watching the nurse looking after your child, inject something, medicine, air, fluid, whatever it might be into your baby, you wouldnt for a moment think that was problematic. And what, again, i go back to what i said earlier about that calculating, manipulative, clever way that she carried out some of these attacks. She changed her. She changed the way she did this. She changed her m. 0. Some days it was air in the long lines. Sometimes it was air in a vein. Sometimes it was over feeding with milk. And i mean, one of the things we learned through the trial is that these babies suffered. They really suffered these babies often in theirfinal hours. These were not deaths that werent painful or didnt have suffering. Tiny, tiny, premature babies really suffered at her hands. And she used the tools of any nurse to make them suffer. And i think the other thing that we learned just to mention, actually, is that the other reason that she was sort of competent and viewed in a trustworthy way was that she was keen, you know, she was keen to learn. Keen to be pushed. Keen to do extra courses to get more qualifications. And, you know, we learn that two weeks before the death of baby a, the first victim in this case, june 2015, she did a course that allowed her, gave her the sort of qualifications, if you like, to start administering drugs down a long line. And then we find out that just two weeks later she killed baby a using that long line. And so of course that, the question is, was she doing those courses . Was she becoming more competent, more confident and Getting Better at killing and attacking babies . Caroline cheetham, a Media Lecturer at Salford University and the co host of the trial of lucy letby podcast talking to my colleague anna foster. If You Arejustjoining us on bbc news a reminder of the main news today. Nurse lucy letby has been found guilty of murdering seven babies, and attempting to kill six others, who were being looked after on a Neonatal Ward at the countess of Chester Hospital betweenjune 2015 and june 2016. The verdicts mean that 33 year old letby is the uks most prolific killer of children in modern times. She was described in court in manchester as cold, calculating and relentless. Prosecutors said that in letby� s hands, air, milk and medication, such as insulin, became lethal. Thejury was undecided on the Attempted Murder of a further four babies. She was found not guilty of two counts of Attempted Murder, and will be sentenced on monday. The government has ordered an independent inquiry. Police are reviewing the admissions of 4,000 babies to hospitals where letby worked but they do stress they are not investigating all 4,000. The families of lucy letby� s victims in a Statement Read out by the Family Liaison Co Ordinator said they were heartbroken, devastated, angry and feel numb after letby was found guilty of seven murders. Well, the parents of two of the children targeted by letby have spoken to the bbc about their experience. Twin boys, known as baby e and baby f, were attacked just one day apart. Letby murdered baby e and attempted to kill baby f, who survived but suffered Serious Health issues. Their parents, who are also not being identified, spoke to our correspondent judith moritz. In the corridor, i could immediately hear crying. It was. It felt more than crying. It was screaming. It was screaming, and i was like, what. Whats the matter with them . I walked into the room. I seen her with my boy, and he had blood round his mouth, and lucy was there. But faffing about. You know when it feels like somebody wants to look busy but theyre not actually doing anything . What did lucy letby say to you . Lucy said, now, dont worry. She has this really calm demeanour about her. And she is, you know, very, very softly spoken. And, dont worry, the registrar was coming, shed already contacted him, he was on his way, and she told me to go back to the ward. I was trying to reassure my wife that, listen, these people are experts and, you know, if they say there is not a problem, youve got nothing to worry about. That was the first phone call. Quickly followed up by a second phone call with a midwife saying, you need to get here now. And there was a third phone call telling me, where are you . The priest has been called. And ijust knew. I knew at that point, you know, you dont call a priest unless someones dying. What could you see . We were taken in. And we were told to talk to him and hold his hand. He was christened. The consultant said, you know what . Were going to stop. We want him to die in your arms. Rather than being worked on. So we said, ok. And they passed him to us. And he died. Can you just talk me through what happened in the aftermath of losing your first child . How was your other son doing . One of the nurses said, you know, hes not. Hes not well. His heart rate is really, really high. What was your first thought . Its happening again. I thought it was happening again. And. I said to my husband, please, not again. We cant do this again. This cant be happening. Its. Almost bang on 2a hours since our other son had died. So i went and. Isat. With him all night. His heartrate was absolutely through the roof. You know, it didnt come down, and i wasjust like, just come down, you know. And im almost trying to will the machine, you know. Bring his heartrate down, bring his heartrate. Make it ok. And did he recover easily . Hes got severe learning difficulties. Hes got a lot of complex needs. Is it your belief that thats connected. Yes. To what happened . Yes. Directly as a consequence . It was a consequence, and hes living with it. What do you think when you go into court and you look at lucy letby . I think shes a hateful human being. Shes taken everything from us. Absolutely everything. Itsjust beyond your imagination that somebodys on a ward, killing babies. Its unbelievable. Because what shes done. Has changed the course of our life forever. The parents of two of the children targeted by lucy letby talking to our correspondent, judith moritz. Judith has followed the whole case and has also spoken to detective superintendent paul hughes was the chief investigating officer on the case for cheshire police. He and his team spent many hours interviewing lucy letby. He explained what he made of what police found. Lucy letby is clearly the person who keeps things. She kept, obviously medical records. She kept handover sheets. She kept Electronic Devices and photographs. She kept diaries. Very detailed diaries and notes and pages of notes, which surprised me because lucy would have been aware that we were going to come and speak to her at some point. So it was surprising that when we did go and knock on her door and say, arrest her, we effectively invited her in with us, but in that first arrest to conduct a search and to see if theres any evidence that could take us in support of what weve seen or in support of her. And then to obtain evidence by questioning. Because she is the one that could effectively, from our perspective in investigation, shes the one that could take it further than anyone else because shed been there more than anyone else. So we were very keen to understand what she was going to say. But i was surprised that there was so much material and so much material quite graphic in its nature in what she wrote that was there, almost presented to us when we arrived. And what do you think its told you about her character . I know the case hasnt had to go into motive, but youve spent time interviewing her and watching her in court as well. Yes. Giving evidence, what do you make of her . I think shes very emotionless. She doesnt respond to a typical Human Response that i would have expected. For example, we didnt see any sadness or any passion or anything more than, you know, an innocent person banging on the table, demanding that we should go and find the proper killer. Or a sadness that when we explain the facts that an expert believes a babys received inflicted harm, should have been in her care, and there was nothing from her that appeared to be affected by what was going on around her. She was just very clinical in her answers, so she was comfortable. Shed go through medical notes. She would talk to us. She was cooperative. She engaged. But she didnt. She didnt respond in any. There was no empathy or sympathy with whats gone on at all. I mean, there are people who look at her and say theres no way she cant have done this. Its Circumstantial Evidence. She looks as though butter wouldnt melt. Its not possible. Well, yeah, absolutely. And thats a danger, isnt it, for us to all be drawn into that. You know, and its an example to us all, really, of Notjudging A Book by its cover and asking the question at all times, you know, from the very beginning. And, you know, weve got to accept and understand the evidence in this case has been, i believe, significant and has taken us to understand that lucy letby is a killer. Detective superintendent paul hughes was the chief investigating officer on the case for cheshire police. Text messages sent by lucy letby in the hours after she murdered babies on that Neonatal Unit were a key part of the evidence against her. They show how she messaged colleagues after she had killed babies, often informing them of the deaths. In turn, she received sympathy and concern. Take a look at this message from the 11th ofjune 2015. That was three days after murdering baby a. Lucy letby Messaged A Manager of the Neonatal Unit, offering to work more shifts, saying she needs to throw herself back in. As her murders mounted, the texts also reveal how letby reacted as the net of suspicion closed in on her. You can see some of these messages on our website. And you can use this qr code to go directly to that page. Lucy letby has been convicted of seven murders, but the bbc has learned there were actually 13 deaths on the Neonatal Unit where she worked in a one year period. Thats five times the usual rate and lucy letby was on duty for all of them. An investigation by bbc news bbc panorama has also revealed that doctors on the unit were raising concerns for months about letby but that senior managers ignored them and protected her. 0ur social Affairs Correspondent Michael Buchanan has this exclusive report. This is the story of an nhs trust that didnt properly investigate why 13 babies died unexpectedly in a one year period. Instead, it turned against the very people who wanted the police to examine the deaths. There is only one Serial Killer of babies that has worked in that organisation, and the Executive Team were not the people who were responsible for the deaths of those babies. But they had some opportunities to get to the bottom of what was happening. Susan gilbyjoined The Countess Of Chester Nhs Trust as Medical Director a month after lucy letby was arrested. Within two months, she was made chief executive, a post she held until last december. Through documents and speaking to staff, she learned what the trust knew about the Serial Killer. The first three babies died injune 2015. The Executive Team held a meeting at which it was agreed that an external investigation into the deaths would be held. It never happened. By october, with seven babies now dead, a Staff Analysis of the incidents made a link between all the deaths and lucy letby being on shift, but it was still seen as coincidental. In february 2016, with ten babies now dead, the director of nursing, alison kelly, and ian harvey, the Medical Director, were asked for an urgent meeting to discuss the deaths and lucy letby� s links to all of them. They didnt respond for three months. The paediatricians were discussing, you know, the terrible nights on call that they were having. One of them said, every time, you know, this is happening to me, that im being called in for these catastrophic events which were unexpected and unexplained, lucy letby is there, and then Somebody Else said, yes, ifound that. And then someone else had the same response. And they all realised that the common factor for each of them was letby� s presence on the unit. Injune 2016, two babies died on consecutive days. 13 children had now died. Lucy letby was on shift for all of them. The day after the second death, the nurse was due back on the unit. Paediatrician Steve Brearley rang the duty manager asking for letby to be replaced. The manager refused. I challenged her. I said, well, are you saying that youre making this decision against the wishes of seven Consultant Paediatricians . And she said, yes. And i said, well, if youre making this decision, are you taking responsibility for anything that might happen tomorrow to any other of our babies . And she said, yes. Letby went to work, and a baby unexpectedly collapsed. We were urging them to investigate our concerns appropriately, and most of us felt the most appropriate way to do that would be to go to the police. The response from the Medical Director was unsupportive. In an e mail to the paediatricians obtained by panorama, ian harvey wrote, action is being taken. All e mails ceased forthwith. The police were not called. Instead, in september 2016, the Royal College of paediatrics and child health was asked to carry out a review of the Neonatal Unit. It urged the trust to investigate each death individually. This didnt happen. Around this time, lucy letby launched a Grievance Procedure against the paediatricians. The internal process concluded that shed been discriminated against and victimised by the doctors on the unit. With the paediatricians wanting a Police Investigation injanuary 2017, an extraordinary Board Meeting was held. The Medical Director, ian harvey, gave a verbal report. He said external reviews had not highlighted any individual as being linked to the deaths and that the trust was ready to draw a line under the issues. The chief executive, tony chambers, said hed met lucy letby and her parents to apologise for what had happened. A statement Written By Letby was read out detailing how hard the past few months had been for her. The meeting decided lucy letby would return to the Neonatal Unit after the paediatricians had written a Letter Apologising to her. This is the letter they sent lucy letby, signed by all seven paediatric consultants in the unit. Against their wishes, they apologised for any inappropriate comments that may have been made, going on to say, we are very sorry for the stress and upset you have experienced in the last year. Though the paediatricians feared being reported to the regulator, they kept going, pressurising executives to call the police, something the trust eventually did in 2017. The reputation of the organisation and protecting that reputation was a big factor in how people responded to the concerns raised. They were dragged kicking and screaming, the Executive Team, to call in the police. That would certainly be the conclusion that i would reach. At the time letby was arrested in july 2018, she was still working at the trust. No disciplinary action had been taken against her. Killer of children in the uk in modern times. Time and again, she harmed babies in an environment which should have been safe for them and theirfamilies. Shes a hateful human being. Because what shes done has changed the course of our life forever. Letby was first arrested in 2018, but doctors had for years repeatedly raised concerns about her to senior hospital management. One of them said, every time this is happening to me, that im being called in for these catastrophic events, which werel unexpected and unexplained, lucy letby is there
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