get in touch, here is the news. retail sales fell more than expected last month partly because of the wet weather. the office for national statistics say they were down by 1.2% in july. statistics say they were down by 1.2% injuly. more than a quarter of sales for online, the highest level since february last year. the treasury has told banks and building societies they will be fined if they don't provide sufficient access to cash. free cash withdrawal should be available three miles in rural areas and one mile with in urban areas. the system to allocate liver transplant is weighted to much towards older people. figures show younger people are waiting four times longer on average than those over 60. the nhs said its computer algorithm saves lives. the top official on maui has resigned. he says he is stepping down for health reasons. he has been criticised in the wake of the wildfires which have killed 111 people. residents of maui has had a stronger response would have saved lives. we are using cash right now, but until when? we are using cash right now, but untilwhen? i we are using cash right now, but until when? i would we are using cash right now, but untilwhen? iwould imagine we are using cash right now, but until when? i would imagine the first out of the traps on this one will be the cash community, those who will bestow lots in defending cash and arguing for its continuation. let me tell you some stuff. the fears are, the uk is at risk of sleepwalking into a cashless society, i quote one report, before it is ready. alternative payment methods, according to another report, may make cash obsolete by 2026. that report also says the cost of running a network of atms is £5 billion, but falling demand all the time for cash, is making the machines less economical to run, as i was mentioning there. and atms are closing at a rate of approximately 300 and month. an average of more than 50 uk bank branches have closed each month since 2015. delighted to say we have the chairman of the government's independent access to cash review and felicity hannah, a business reporter. the host of five live's formidable and wonderful show, wake up to many. wake up to many, for how much longer?- show, wake up to many. wake up to many, for how much longer? waking up to contactless- — many, for how much longer? waking up to contactless. waking _ many, for how much longer? waking up to contactless. waking up _ many, for how much longer? waking up to contactless. waking up to _ many, for how much longer? waking up to contactless. waking up to cash, - to contactless. waking up to cash, how much longer? _ to contactless. waking up to cash, how much longer? it _ to contactless. waking up to cash, how much longer? it is _ to contactless. waking up to cash, how much longer? it is an - to contactless. waking up to cash, l how much longer? it is an important cuestion how much longer? it is an important question and — how much longer? it is an important question and there _ how much longer? it is an important question and there are _ how much longer? it is an important question and there are fewer- how much longer? it is an important question and there are fewer people j question and there are fewer people using hard cash than ever before. the number of cash payments fell by 1.7% in 2021, people are using cards, contactless and apple pay on their phones. it is a significant shift, 23 million people didn't use cash at all in 2021, according to uk finance, which represents the banks. as we go about it here, for some people, it is absolutely critical. we are on an inevitable road? it feels like an inevitable road and even the government is recognising that. these rules will adapt as we go on, as more people move over to more contactless, digital payments and it is expected the restrictions within the rules, the one—mile access to cash in urban areas, three miles in more rural areas, that could shift and expand as fewer and fewer people actually need cash. what the government is trying to ensure is that those who do need it, can get it. ensure is that those who do need it, can aet it. , ensure is that those who do need it, can aet it. ., , ., ., can get it. those arguments for a cashless society, _ can get it. those arguments for a cashless society, i _ can get it. those arguments for a cashless society, i have - can get it. those arguments for a cashless society, i have scribbledj can get it. those arguments for a i cashless society, i have scribbled a few down. as i predicted, a lot of people are coming in in defence of cash. society increasingly digital. you cannot hold back the march of progress, phyllis was pointing that out. if you are mugged and lose your purse, it is easy to cancel cards, it is harder to get your cash back. you can reduce fraud and theft if you have a digitalfootprint. cash is untraceable, which is useful for criminals. if you are involved in organised crime, get in touch. less admin for businesses, you don't have to withdraw or manage physical money. and if you start early, digital transactions are a way of teaching young children about internet banking, online transactions and things like investing your money. paul is in preston, natalie i will be with you, interesting calls, lucy in london. lucy, you are a busker, good morning, lucy. lucy, you are a busker, good morning. lucy-— lucy, you are a busker, good morning, lucy. lucy, you are a busker, good mornin: , lu . ., ., lucy, you are a busker, good mornina, lu . ., ., ., morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker. morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker- what — morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker. what sort _ morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker. what sort of— morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker. what sort of stuff _ morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker. what sort of stuff do - morning, lucy. good morning, i am a busker. what sort of stuff do you - busker. what sort of stuff do you bust? i am _ busker. what sort of stuff do you bust? i am a _ busker. what sort of stuff do you bust? i am a singer _ busker. what sort of stuff do you bust? i am a singer songwriter. busker. what sort of stuff do you i bust? i am a singer songwriter and i -la uuitar bust? i am a singer songwriter and i play guitar and _ bust? i am a singer songwriter and i play guitar and sing _ bust? i am a singer songwriter and i play guitar and sing some _ bust? i am a singer songwriter and i play guitar and sing some of - bust? i am a singer songwriter and i play guitar and sing some of my - bust? i am a singer songwriter and i | play guitar and sing some of my own stuff, some covers, depending on where i am and who is listening. money, money, money. money is too tight to mention, a few more. how do you conduct your business at the moment? ., ., ., , moment? right now i am at edinburgh frinae moment? right now i am at edinburgh fringe festival. — moment? right now i am at edinburgh fringe festival, i— moment? right now i am at edinburgh fringe festival, i am _ moment? right now i am at edinburgh fringe festival, i am busking _ moment? right now i am at edinburgh fringe festival, i am busking for- fringe festival, i am busking for the whole month. with the whole card thing, i have got a card readerfor busking for about five to six years, i think. when i first got that, people laughed at me, but i know myself, i don't carry cash any more. so i think you have to adapt with the times. i have seen a big, big change over the past four years, especially post—covid, a lot of people don't have cash. i take more payments and card now than i do cash. ., . , payments and card now than i do cash. ., .,, ., ., , cash. covid was a watershed in so many ways _ cash. covid was a watershed in so many ways and — cash. covid was a watershed in so many ways and so _ cash. covid was a watershed in so many ways and so many - cash. covid was a watershed in so many ways and so many different| many ways and so many different areas. is it easierfor people scrabbling in their pockets to throw you a fiver of getting their wallet out and just ten? have you noticed more business, less business? what about the ease of giving you money when you are singing your wonderful songs? it when you are singing your wonderful sonus? ,. , when you are singing your wonderful sonus? , . , ., songs? it is an interesting one. i am normally _ songs? it is an interesting one. i am normally based _ songs? it is an interesting one. i am normally based in _ songs? it is an interesting one. i am normally based in london - songs? it is an interesting one. i | am normally based in london and songs? it is an interesting one. i l am normally based in london and i think a lot of people who live in london are used to seeing busker is now with card readers. when i first had one, and actually still now it is more like tourists who have not seen buskers with card rita's and they look at you like you are crazy. —— card readers. they are nervous to tipsy sometimes because they think you are dodgy, how can i trace this back? if i get to speak to the people, it is exactly the same as you buying a coffee. look at the card reader i have, it is the same that people in cafes use. i think it has been more normalised and it is making a big, big difference, the more that other buskers have card rita's and the more that we see in the more normalised it is. —— card readers. it still can be difficult convincing people i am not going to steal their bank details, if i knew how to come i probably would, but i don't know. how to come i probably would, but i don't know— how to come i probably would, but i don't know-- i _ how to come i probably would, but i don't know.- i am _ how to come i probably would, but i don't know.- i am just - don't know. 0h, ok. i am 'ust 'okina. don't know. 0h, ok. i am 'ust joking. andi don't know. 0h, ok. i am 'ust joking. and ii don't know. 0h, ok. i am 'ust joking. and i am i don't know. 0h, ok. i am 'ust joking. and i am nosy i don't know. 0h, ok. i amjust| joking. and i am nosy because i don't know. 0h, ok. i amjust- joking. and i am nosy because i am aid to joking. and i am nosy because i am paid to be- — joking. and i am nosy because i am paid to be. what _ joking. and i am nosy because i am paid to be. what is _ joking. and i am nosy because i am paid to be. what is the _ joking. and i am nosy because i am paid to be. what is the biggest - paid to be. what is the biggest amount anyone has ever given you for singing a song? this amount anyone has ever given you for singing a song?— singing a song? this is also on the card, so singing a song? this is also on the card. so thanks — singing a song? this is also on the card, so thanks to _ singing a song? this is also on the card, so thanks to the _ singing a song? this is also on the card, so thanks to the card - singing a song? this is also on the | card, so thanks to the card reader, on the underground, actually, a guy asked to tipped me £100. i thought he wasjoking, betty asked to tipped me £100. i thought he was joking, betty asked to tip £100 on my card reader, so that is the biggest tip i have ever had. i bet you sounded great because the acoustics on the london underground are perfect. you would need the most sophisticated studio to replicative. what is your opinion on this, paul? my what is your opinion on this, paul? my business in the days gone by was predominantly cash. as contactless payments and direct transfers, which is what we sort of gets, they became more and more and it is more convenient, people don't have to go to the cash machine. the problem is, at the end of every day i have got to start billing people and start chasing up money. the most difficult thing is chasing up the people who always pay on time. you are checking through and they haven't paid, so you are contacting them and they say, i have paid, i have always paid. and you feel like you calling them a liar. then you check. and you have to say sorry. but it is an hour added to the end of every working day. as a result, i haven't done this yet, but several of my fellow colleagues have started saying, we are not taking transfers because the admin time isjust are not taking transfers because the admin time is just too much. are not taking transfers because the admin time isjust too much. that are not taking transfers because the admin time isjust too much.- admin time is 'ust too much. that is interesting. — admin time isjust too much. that is interesting, phyllis _ admin time isjust too much. that is interesting, phyllis and _ admin time isjust too much. that is interesting, phyllis and hannah. - admin time isjust too much. that is | interesting, phyllis and hannah. the different kinds of impacts it can have _ different kinds of impacts it can have on— different kinds of impacts it can have on businesses. if you are taking — have on businesses. if you are taking your income and cash, you have _ taking your income and cash, you have got— taking your income and cash, you have got to — taking your income and cash, you have got to go to the bank, go and deposit _ have got to go to the bank, go and deposit those coins and those notes. it is deposit those coins and those notes. it is easy— deposit those coins and those notes. it is easy to — deposit those coins and those notes. it is easy to say it is good for business _ it is easy to say it is good for business or bad for business, but it depends— business or bad for business, but it depends on— business or bad for business, but it depends on the business. i was thinking — depends on the business. i was thinking when we were listening to the busker, edinburgh and london rely on _ the busker, edinburgh and london rely on tourism and it is one of the interesting — rely on tourism and it is one of the interesting things about going cashless, it is quite difficult for torres — cashless, it is quite difficult for torres it — cashless, it is quite difficult for torres it is _ cashless, it is quite difficult for torres. it is easier for them to exchange _ torres. it is easier for them to exchange their money, bring along notes _ exchange their money, bring along notes and — exchange their money, bring along notes and coins otherwise they can pay more _ notes and coins otherwise they can pay more in — notes and coins otherwise they can pay more in fees because they are using _ pay more in fees because they are using credit and debit cards and then— using credit and debit cards and then you — using credit and debit cards and then you pay an extra fee because you are _ then you pay an extra fee because you are in — then you pay an extra fee because you are in another country. all sorts _ you are in another country. all sorts of— you are in another country. all sorts of different ripple effects, not a _ sorts of different ripple effects, not a clear answer. you sorts of different ripple effects, not a clear answer.— sorts of different ripple effects, not a clear answer. you send your 1�*t-year-old _ not a clear answer. you send your 14-year-old down _ not a clear answer. you send your 14-year-old down to _ not a clear answer. you send your 14-year-old down to the - not a clear answer. you send your 14-year-old down to the shops i not a clear answer. you send your 14-year-old down to the shops to | not a clear answer. you send your. 14-year-old down to the shops to get 14—year—old down to the shops to get a pint of milk, here is my credit card! i a pint of milk, here is my credit card! ~ ., , a pint of milk, here is my credit card! ~ . , ., , card! i think that is a very good oint. card! i think that is a very good point- when — card! i think that is a very good point. when you _ card! i think that is a very good point. when you pay _ card! i think that is a very good j point. when you pay somebody card! i think that is a very good i point. when you pay somebody in cash, let'sjust point. when you pay somebody in cash, let's just say i get paid point. when you pay somebody in cash, let'sjust say i get paid in cash, let'sjust say i get paid in cash and you have got to go into the bank and put it in. you don't if he then actually use it to buy my shopping. i will go to the supermarket and use cash. this is where it is quite interesting. if somebody has paid me in cash, the bank don't get any of it. i then take the supermarket and the bank don't get any of it. if you start out with a £50 note and somebody uses that £50 notes, let's say 50 times to do a transaction. at the end of that, that £50 note is still worth £50. if you are doing that contactless, there wouldn't be that much out of the £50 left, the bank would have got that in fees. the bank are pushing to go contactless, it is money in the bank for them. yes, what do you think, give us a call, send us a text. natalie, i will be with you. text messages... nikki, i use cash and apple pie but not everybody will be able to use technology, old people with disabilities, learning disabilities, i doubt cash will completely go. that is from a lady in nottingham. are we rushing too quickly into a cashless society? that is essentially the point. this one, very hard to get receipts when you pay at small shops and pop—ups but they have so much info from your card. yourfull name is on the card, expiry date and some keep the start date. this one, tradesmen inevitably, invariably want paying inevitably, invariably want paying in cash. my dog groomer, gardner and rufer, i do all my transactions online but many trades to demand cash. this one, imagine going to a car—boot sale, local market as people expect to buy and maintain a banking gadget at a car—boot sale with no wi—fi, it is not feasible. plus homeless people rely on cash donations, dangerous to move towards a cashless society. natalie, who chaired the government's independent access to cash review, is it dangerous, natalie?- access to cash review, is it dangerous, natalie? yes, in short, for some people- _ dangerous, natalie? yes, in short, for some people. as _ dangerous, natalie? yes, in short, for some people. as you _ dangerous, natalie? yes, in short, for some people. as you have - dangerous, natalie? yes, in short, | for some people. as you have said, most of us are happy with digital. go back ten years, six out of ten transactions the cash, it is down to 15% of all transactions. there are 5 million people who depend on cash. it is not that they are luddites, it is just digital doesn't work for them yet. you might live in a rural area where there is no mobile signal. it will be another decade before the whole of britain has decent connectivity. my father—in—law has dementia, he used to be very savvy at online banking, he now cannot do it and we have an ageing population. almost1 million people with dementia. over1 million people with dementia. over1 million people without a bank account, some people without a bank account, some people cannot get them if they have a severe learning disability. there are other cases, people often talk about cash as a way to budget. if you have only got £50 for the week, putting it aside and making sure you squirrel await the money for the last day of food, where as if you use a debit card you can easily find you overspend and which case you get charges. my final example, domestic abuse charities, they will say that often an abuse that will take over a victim's bank account or keep their money. being able to squirrel away cash is often the only way that victims can keep independence or even escape. there are a lot of reasons why cash is needed by some people. hat reasons why cash is needed by some --eole. ., , , , reasons why cash is needed by some --eole. ., , , people. not everybody, but some --eole. people. not everybody, but some people. multifaceted _ people. not everybody, but some people. multifaceted this. - people. not everybody, but some | people. multifaceted this. myleene in manchester, good morning, eileen. cash? , , , ., , in manchester, good morning, eileen. cash? , i, cash? yes, yes. it was something i fell into when _ cash? yes, yes. it was something i fell into when i _ cash? yes, yes. it was something i fell into when i was _ cash? yes, yes. it was something i fell into when i was working, - cash? yes, yes. it was something i fell into when i was working, i - cash? yes, yes. it was something i fell into when i was working, i only| fell into when i was working, i only had half_ fell into when i was working, i only had half an— fell into when i was working, i only had half an hour lunch, sol fell into when i was working, i only had half an hour lunch, so i didn't really— had half an hour lunch, so i didn't really appreciate going into a bank and queueing up for ten to 15 minutes— and queueing up for ten to 15 minutes to get cash. i couldn't use the cash _ minutes to get cash. i couldn't use the cash machine outside the bank because _ the cash machine outside the bank because unfortunately, it wasn't a very safe — because unfortunately, it wasn't a very safe area. because unfortunately, it wasn't a very safe area-— because unfortunately, it wasn't a very safe area. good point. people are making — very safe area. good point. people are making that _ very safe area. good point. people are making that point, _ very safe area. good point. people are making that point, it _ very safe area. good point. people are making that point, it is - very safe area. good point. people are making that point, it is like - are making that point, it is like having someone over your shoulder. exactly. it is not only that, some of the _ exactly. it is not only that, some of the cash — exactly. it is not only that, some of the cash machines, as we know, they are _ of the cash machines, as we know, they are rigged anyway. i don't know if they are rigged anyway. idon't know if they— they are rigged anyway. idon't know if they still— they are rigged anyway. i don't know if they still do it but even the cash — if they still do it but even the cash machines were not safe any more _ cash machines were not safe any more. , cash machines were not safe any more— they i cash machines were not safe any . more— they were more. they were rigged? they were ”uttin more. they were rigged? they were putting cameras _ more. they were rigged? they were putting cameras and, _ more. they were rigged? they were putting cameras and, the _ more. they were rigged? they were putting cameras and, the naughty . putting cameras and, the naughty people _ putting cameras and, the naughty people. your card was getting cloned — people. your card was getting cloned. or, it happened to me a couple _ cloned. or, it happened to me a couple of— cloned. or, it happened to me a couple of times, money was coming out that— couple of times, money was coming out that i_ couple of times, money was coming out that i hadn't withdrawn. it is not a _ out that i hadn't withdrawn. it is not a very— out that i hadn't withdrawn. it is not a very safe system at all. however. _ not a very safe system at all. however, as i said in my text, saying — however, as i said in my text, saying i— however, as i said in my text, saying i am _ however, as i said in my text, saying i am not a cash person, i still— saying i am not a cash person, i still want — saying i am not a cash person, i still want the option.— saying i am not a cash person, i still want the option. yes. gerald in coventry. _ still want the option. yes. gerald in coventry, good _ still want the option. yes. gerald in coventry, good morning, - still want the option. yes. gerald i in coventry, good morning, gerald. good morning. in coventry, good morning, gerald. good morning-— good morning. aiming towards a cashless society, _ good morning. aiming towards a cashless society, how _ good morning. aiming towards a cashless society, how do - good morning. aiming towards a cashless society, how do you - good morning. aiming towards a| cashless society, how do you feel about the fact we are on that journey? i about the fact we are on that 'ourne ? ., , ., , journey? i live in coventry and they don't want — journey? i live in coventry and they don't want to _ journey? i live in coventry and they don't want to take _ journey? i live in coventry and they don't want to take your— journey? i live in coventry and they don't want to take your card - journey? i live in coventry and they don't want to take your card if - journey? i live in coventry and they don't want to take your card if it. don't want to take your card if it is under— don't want to take your card if it is under 50 _ don't want to take your card if it is under £30.— don't want to take your card if it is under £30. they don't want to take our is under £30. they don't want to take your card? _ is under £30. they don't want to take your card? no, _ is under £30. they don't want to take your card? no, they - is under £30. they don't want to take your card? no, they will. is under £30. they don't want to | take your card? no, they will say there is a cash _ take your card? no, they will say there is a cash machine - take your card? no, they will say there is a cash machine across i take your card? no, they will say l there is a cash machine across the road _ there is a cash machine across the road from — there is a cash machine across the road from us _ there is a cash machine across the road from us so— there is a cash machine across the road from us. so they _ there is a cash machine across the road from us. so they are - there is a cash machine across the road from us. so they are not - there is a cash machine across the . road from us. so they are not paying full taxes. _ road from us. so they are not paying full taxes. the — road from us. so they are not paying full taxes, the country— road from us. so they are not paying full taxes, the country is _ road from us. so they are not paying full taxes, the country is in - road from us. so they are not paying full taxes, the country is in enough i full taxes, the country is in enough mess _ full taxes, the country is in enough mess i_ full taxes, the country is in enough mess iactually— full taxes, the country is in enough mess. i actually wrote _ full taxes, the country is in enough mess. i actually wrote to _ full taxes, the country is in enough mess. i actually wrote to the - mess. i actually wrote to the exchequer— mess. i actually wrote to the exchequer about _ mess. i actually wrote to the exchequer about a _ mess. i actually wrote to the exchequer about a year- mess. i actually wrote to the exchequer about a year ago. | mess. i actually wrote to the l exchequer about a year ago. i mess. i actually wrote to the - exchequer about a year ago. i got no sense _ exchequer about a year ago. i got no sense. bio _ exchequer about a year ago. i got no sense. ., , , ., . sense. no sense from the exchequer! he wrote to — sense. no sense from the exchequer! he wrote to the _ sense. no sense from the exchequer! he wrote to the exchequer— sense. no sense from the exchequer! he wrote to the exchequer and - sense. no sense from the exchequer! he wrote to the exchequer and got. sense. no sense from the exchequer! he wrote to the exchequer and got no sense. there is another debate entirely. it sense. there is another debate entirel . , sense. there is another debate entirel. , . ., , ~ sense. there is another debate entirel. , . . , . ., sense. there is another debate entirel. , . . , ~ ., ., entirely. it is crazy. when i had a business. — entirely. it is crazy. when i had a business, the _ entirely. it is crazy. when i had a business, the vat _ entirely. it is crazy. when i had a business, the vat man _ entirely. it is crazy. when i had a business, the vat man would - entirely. it is crazy. when i had a i business, the vat man would come round _ business, the vat man would come round i_ business, the vat man would come round idon't— business, the vat man would come round. idon't know— business, the vat man would come round. idon't know how— business, the vat man would come round. i don't know how often- business, the vat man would come round. i don't know how often theyl round. i don't know how often they come _ round. i don't know how often they come around — round. i don't know how often they come around nowadays. _ round. i don't know how often they come around nowadays. you - round. i don't know how often they come around nowadays. you can i round. i don't know how often they - come around nowadays. you can check on a lot _ come around nowadays. you can check on a lot of— come around nowadays. you can check on a lot of businesses, _ come around nowadays. you can check on a lot of businesses, check- come around nowadays. you can check on a lot of businesses, check what - on a lot of businesses, check what they are _ on a lot of businesses, check what they are buying, _ on a lot of businesses, check what they are buying. you _ on a lot of businesses, check what they are buying, you can - on a lot of businesses, check what they are buying, you can work - on a lot of businesses, check what they are buying, you can work out| they are buying, you can work out quite _ they are buying, you can work out quite simply— they are buying, you can work out quite simply what _ they are buying, you can work out quite simply what they— they are buying, you can work out quite simply what they are - they are buying, you can work out| quite simply what they are taking. they are buying, you can work out i quite simply what they are taking. i want quite simply what they are taking. want to pick up something, he quite simply what they are taking.” want to pick up something, he was coming in there, i heard another voice, somebody wanting to pick up a point? i am going to throw this toothless anyway. what about the situation, some people want cash, so they can dodge a bit of vat and stuff like that? hate they can dodge a bit of vat and stuff like that?— they can dodge a bit of vat and stuff like that? we all know that noes on, stuff like that? we all know that goes on. it _ stuff like that? we all know that goes on. it is— stuff like that? we all know that goes on, it is the _ stuff like that? we all know that goes on, it is the great - stuff like that? we all know thatl goes on, it is the great economy. undeniably, cash is very easy tool if you don't want to trouble any law enforcement or trouble the tax office, cash is handy. the fact some people missed music, criminals and businesses not paying full tax misuse cash, doesn't necessarily argue against people who really, really need it. one of the things that interested me, is the idea some businesses saying they will only take cash because the flip to that coin, that was a terrible plan, given what we talking about... i like that. you _ given what we talking about... i like that. you would. _ given what we talking about... i like that. you would. some - like that. you would. some businesses _ like that. you would. some businesses say _ like that. you would. some businesses say they - like that. you would. some businesses say they will. like that. you would. some | businesses say they will not like that. you would. some - businesses say they will not take physical cash, only contactless payments. what is interesting about the change in the rules, the increasing fines for banks, there is no change for businesses, they can sit refused to take your coins and banknotes if they want to.- banknotes if they want to. which method is best _ banknotes if they want to. which method is best for _ banknotes if they want to. which method is best for money - banknotes if they want to. which method is best for money laundering? cash. i am method is best for money laundering? cash. iam no method is best for money laundering? cash. i am no expert, method is best for money laundering? cash. iam no expert, i method is best for money laundering? cash. i am no expert, i don't know what you have heard about me? asking for a friend, what you have heard about me? asking for a friend. as — what you have heard about me? asking for a friend, as they _ what you have heard about me? asking for a friend, as they say. _ what you have heard about me? asking for a friend, as they say. cash - what you have heard about me? asking for a friend, as they say. cash is - for a friend, as they say. cash is better for money laundering, isn't it? is there an argument here, natalie, it is going to be more difficult for organised crime if we move, if we keep cash or if we lose cash? natalie, can you hear me? flash cash? natalie, can you hear me? cash is an absolute — cash? natalie, can you hear me? cash is an absolute bonanza for organised crime, _ is an absolute bonanza for organised crime, isn't— is an absolute bonanza for organised crime, isn't it? i disagree. this is a myth _ crime, isn't it? i disagree. this is a myth i — crime, isn't it? i disagree. this is a myth i commonly hear. you hear about— a myth i commonly hear. you hear about it _ a myth i commonly hear. you hear about it is — a myth i commonly hear. you hear about it is great, bank robberies and muggings will go down, where do the criminals go? they go to online fraud _ the criminals go? they go to online fraud. sweden is one of the fastest countries _ fraud. sweden is one of the fastest countries to move away from cash and criminal— countries to move away from cash and criminal started hijacking than with apple _ criminal started hijacking than with apple phones instead. criminals will find a _ apple phones instead. criminals will find a way _ apple phones instead. criminals will find a way. in terms of money laundering, i work with banks and people _ laundering, i work with banks and people will find ways of money laundering in digital ways, just as they can — laundering in digital ways, just as they can with cash. as far as small businesses — they can with cash. as far as small businesses are concerned, i am sure there _ businesses are concerned, i am sure there are _ businesses are concerned, i am sure there are criminals doing things in every— there are criminals doing things in every segment of society and the main _ every segment of society and the main reason, i have spoken to hundreds— main reason, i have spoken to hundreds of small businesses, the reason _ hundreds of small businesses, the reason they want to take cash, they don't _ reason they want to take cash, they don't have _ reason they want to take cash, they don't have to pay bank charges all they are _ don't have to pay bank charges all they are not as high. typically small— they are not as high. typically small business you pay 4% of all your— small business you pay 4% of all your takings small business you pay 4% of all yourtakings in bank small business you pay 4% of all your takings in bank charges if it is digitat — your takings in bank charges if it is digital. that adds up and is quite — is digital. that adds up and is quite a — is digital. that adds up and is quite a lot— is digital. that adds up and is quite a lot of money. if you are a small— quite a lot of money. if you are a small business and owned a run, you don't _ small business and owned a run, you don't count— small business and owned a run, you don't count the cost of catching up at the _ don't count the cost of catching up at the end — don't count the cost of catching up at the end of the day, it is your time _ at the end of the day, it is your time a — at the end of the day, it is your time a lot— at the end of the day, it is your time. a lot of small businesses, it is far— time. a lot of small businesses, it is far more — time. a lot of small businesses, it is far more cost—effective to take cash _ is far more cost-effective to take cash. ., . , is far more cost-effective to take cash. , ., , is far more cost-effective to take cash. , is far more cost-effective to take cash. loads of calls on this, people care. it is cash. loads of calls on this, people care- it is part _ cash. loads of calls on this, people care. it is part of— cash. loads of calls on this, people care. it is part of our— cash. loads of calls on this, people care. it is part of our life. _ cash. loads of calls on this, people care. it is part of our life. annie - care. it is part of our life. annie is a personalfinance care. it is part of our life. annie is a personal finance journalist and time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can ou time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear— time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me _ time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me 0k? _ time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me ok? i _ time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me ok? i think- time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me ok? i think it - time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me ok? i think it is - time is worksop, hello, pam. hello. can you hear me ok? i think it is a i can you hear me ok? i think it is a bit ofa can you hear me ok? i think it is a bit of a fluffy line. just say something to me, say hello? i5 bit of a fluffy line. just say something to me, say hello? is that all riuht? something to me, say hello? is that all right? that _ something to me, say hello? is that all right? that is _ something to me, say hello? is that all right? that is splendid. - something to me, say hello? is that all right? that is splendid. you - something to me, say hello? is that all right? that is splendid. you are i all right? that is splendid. you are in a particular— all right? that is splendid. you are in a particular situation, _ all right? that is splendid. you are in a particular situation, explain i in a particular situation, explain what it is and what your feelings are about cash? i what it is and what your feelings are about cash?— what it is and what your feelings are about cash? i am 79 years old and i are about cash? i am 79 years old and i have — are about cash? i am 79 years old and i have got _ are about cash? i am 79 years old and i have got dementia. - are about cash? i am 79 years old and i have got dementia. it i are about cash? i am 79 years old and i have got dementia. it is i are about cash? i am 79 years old and i have got dementia. it is one of the rare ones so it is not obvious to everybody. i need cash to keep to watch what i spend. it is so easy to use a card and get into debt and not watch what you are spending. if you are using cash you know exactly what you are buying. i have my carer, she goes to the shops and she fetches my milk and she fetches my... she doesn't want to use card. i think this is a really good point. when you are using a card, it is easier to spend money.- when you are using a card, it is easier to spend money. there are a heck of a lot _ easier to spend money. there are a heck of a lot of _ easier to spend money. there are a heck of a lot of people _ easier to spend money. there are a heck of a lot of people like - easier to spend money. there are a heck of a lot of people like me i easier to spend money. there are a heck of a lot of people like me with j heck of a lot of people like me with dementia that are still looking after their own money. don't take it away from them, we need to be aware of what we are doing, it keeps your mind going. of what we are doing, it keeps your mind going-— mind going. yes, exactly, it is there in front _ mind going. yes, exactly, it is there in front of _ mind going. yes, exactly, it is there in front of you. - mind going. yes, exactly, it is there in front of you. it i mind going. yes, exactly, it is there in front of you. it is i there in front of you. it is physical, you have got to add it up, you have got to do some calculations.— you have got to do some calculations. �* , ., calculations. believe you, me, i check my _ calculations. believe you, me, i check my bank— calculations. believe you, me, i check my bank statement i calculations. believe you, me, i check my bank statement every| calculations. believe you, me, i- check my bank statement every month. i get loads of scam phone calls. my daughter does them and tells them exactly where to get off. does she? i love that expression. _ exactly where to get off. does she? i love that expression. i _ exactly where to get off. does she? i love that expression. i love i exactly where to get off. does she? i love that expression. i love that i i love that expression. i love that expression, she tells them where to get off. expression, she tells them where to net off. ~ , , ., , expression, she tells them where to aetoff. , ., expression, she tells them where to get off. absolutely. that is putting it olitel . get off. absolutely. that is putting it politely- i— get off. absolutely. that is putting it politely. i know _ get off. absolutely. that is putting it politely. i know it _ get off. absolutely. that is putting it politely. i know it is _ get off. absolutely. that is putting it politely. i know it is putting i get off. absolutely. that is putting it politely. i know it is putting it i it politely. i know it is putting it olitel . it politely. i know it is putting it politely- for— it politely. i know it is putting it politely. for the _ it politely. i know it is putting it politely. for the scammers i it politely. i know it is putting it politely. for the scammers and | it politely. i know it is putting it i politely. for the scammers and the fraudsters, a cashless society is a dream world for them isn't it? that is what they want, pam? that dream world for them isn't it? that is what they want, pam?— is what they want, pam? at 1.1 was caettin is what they want, pam? at 1.1 was getting five — is what they want, pam? at 1.1 was getting five phone _ is what they want, pam? at 1.1 was getting five phone calls _ is what they want, pam? at 1.1 was getting five phone calls a _ is what they want, pam? at 1.1 was getting five phone calls a day. it i getting five phone calls a day. it is a waste of time ringing me because she tells them in no uncertain terms, no. she writes them all down, she writes the numbers down, we know exactly who they are. time, you have made some wonderful points, thank you for getting in touch. ., ~ points, thank you for getting in touch. . ~' ,. points, thank you for getting in touch. . ~ ., points, thank you for getting in touch. ., ~ , ., ., and we touch. thank you for ringing. and we have got- -- — touch. thank you for ringing. and we have got... caroline _ touch. thank you for ringing. and we have got... caroline in _ touch. thank you for ringing. and we have got... caroline in redding. i have got... caroline in redding. hello, and chris. chris, you run a sweet shop? how would a cashless society affect you?— society affect you? really, i have not a foot society affect you? really, i have got a foot in _ society affect you? really, i have got a foot in both _ society affect you? really, i have got a foot in both camps - society affect you? really, i have got a foot in both camps becausej society affect you? really, i have i got a foot in both camps because we are a traditional sweet shop in steyning, west sussex. i have always been an advocate of cash and i always feel we are being forced into these new directives. and your colleague also just said and rightly, we are charged up to 4% for taking cash. but i have to say that now using our pdq machine, credit card and debit card machine, up to 80% of customers are using cash, even the young children that are coming in for their daily £1 spend. it goes on either a parent managed debit card or their own debit card. but more importantly, nobody has mentioned yet, but i think the government has shot themselves in the foot, literally, because of the quality and the difficulty people have in handling the current currency. it is made of plastic, it is very, very difficult to stack in the till, it is very, very difficult to count. we are a very busy shop and we are often finding £5 notes that have sprung out of people's pockets, which i hasten to add go into our charity pot. it is very, very difficult currency to use. it is interesting to note, those that create this money realise, when you take cash out of a machine it is always brand—new cash and it is not cash that has been folded and it is springy and concertina it. that is encouraging people not to use cash because it is a fad. i got encouraging people not to use cash because it is a fad.— because it is a fad. i got £25 out of my wallet. — because it is a fad. i got £25 out of my wallet, which _ because it is a fad. i got £25 out of my wallet, which is _ because it is a fad. i got £25 out of my wallet, which is a i because it is a fad. i got £25 out of my wallet, which is a rare i because it is a fad. i got £25 out i of my wallet, which is a rare event, and you are right, there is no purchase on it, is there? ida. and you are right, there is no purchase on it, is there? no, i would love _ purchase on it, is there? no, i would love you _ purchase on it, is there? no, i would love you to _ purchase on it, is there? no, i would love you to bring i purchase on it, is there? no, i would love you to bring that i purchase on it, is there? no, ij would love you to bring that to purchase on it, is there? no, i. would love you to bring that to my shop, we will take it from you. but my point, it is very difficult to handle and if you don't have a wallet you put it in your pocket. i think people are moving away from the modern plastic cash and that is my story, really. you the modern plastic cash and that is my story. really-— my story, really. you are king canute, chris. _ my story, really. you are king canute, chris. because i my story, really. you are king canute, chris. because we i my story, really. you are king| canute, chris. because we are heading in one direction only. thank you, chris. caroline, what do you think? good morning?— you, chris. caroline, what do you think? good morning? good morning. i am confused- — think? good morning? good morning. i am confused. during _ think? good morning? good morning. i am confused. during covid. .. _ think? good morning? good morning. i am confused. during covid. .. sorry, i am confused. during covid... sorry, the phone _ am confused. during covid... sorry, the phone has— am confused. during covid... sorry, the phone hasjust gone. no, am confused. during covid... sorry, the phone hasjust gone.— am confused. during covid... sorry, the phone hasjust gone. the phone has 'ust gone. no, we can hear ou. the phone hasjust gone. no, we can hear you- during _ the phone hasjust gone. no, we can hear you. during covid, _ the phone hasjust gone. no, we can hear you. during covid, i— the phone hasjust gone. no, we can hear you. during covid, i went i the phone hasjust gone. no, we can hear you. during covid, i went into i hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to — hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to do _ hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to do a — hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to do a food _ hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to do a food shop i hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to do a food shop and i hear you. during covid, i went into a bakery to do a food shop and got to the _ a bakery to do a food shop and got to the counter and they wouldn't accept _ to the counter and they wouldn't accept my— to the counter and they wouldn't accept my cash. and then i thought, not only— accept my cash. and then i thought, not only feeling humiliated because of the _ not only feeling humiliated because of the way they treated me, the number— of the way they treated me, the number of— of the way they treated me, the number of times they give people sitting _ number of times they give people sitting on— number of times they give people sitting on the street who are desperate money to go and get food, and if— desperate money to go and get food, and if more _ desperate money to go and get food, and if more and more shops are not accepting _ and if more and more shops are not accepting cash, i also did some street— accepting cash, i also did some street collecting for a couple of charities — street collecting for a couple of charities during christmas time and people _ charities during christmas time and people want to give, but they haven't — people want to give, but they haven't got the cash to give. so the charities— haven't got the cash to give. so the charities are — haven't got the cash to give. so the charities are missing out, there is a lot— charities are missing out, there is a lot of— charities are missing out, there is a lot of gaps in people who are being — a lot of gaps in people who are being helped by the technology and not the _ being helped by the technology and not the technology, clean or what i mean? _ not the technology, clean or what i mean? ., ., i. ., ' not the technology, clean or what i mean? ., ., ., ' , ., , mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence, mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence. when — mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence, when there _ mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence, when there is _ mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence, when there is very _ mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence, when there is very little i mean? how do you feel about 15 years hence, when there is very little of - hence, when there is very little of it? i don't know how you teach mathematics. the whole point about doing _ mathematics. the whole point about doing mathematics is about getting change. _ doing mathematics is about getting change. if— doing mathematics is about getting change, if you don't learn your maths, — change, if you don't learn your maths, you _ change, if you don't learn your maths, you will get the wrong change — maths, you will get the wrong change |_ maths, you will get the wrong chan . e. , , ., maths, you will get the wrong chan . e. , , . ., maths, you will get the wrong chance. ,, ., ., , change. i guess there are other ways of learnina change. i guess there are other ways of learning maths. _ change. i guess there are other ways of learning maths. that _ change. i guess there are other ways of learning maths. that would - change. i guess there are other ways of learning maths. that would be - change. i guess there are other ways of learning maths. that would be the im ortant of learning maths. that would be the important one- _ of learning maths. that would be the important one. the _ of learning maths. that would be the important one. the point _ of learning maths. that would be the important one. the point you - of learning maths. that would be the important one. the point you make | important one. the point you make about... important one. the point you make about--- you _ important one. the point you make about... you get _ important one. the point you make about... you get your— important one. the point you make about... you get your pocket - important one. the point you make | about... you get your pocket money and how much _ about... you get your pocket money and how much sweets _ about... you get your pocket money and how much sweets you _ about... you get your pocket money and how much sweets you get, - and how much sweets you get, motivaton _ and how much sweets you get, motivator-— and how much sweets you get, motivator. ~ ., , ., and how much sweets you get, motivator. ~' ., , ., , motivator. pocket money, it would be an obsolete — motivator. pocket money, it would be an obsolete phrase, _ motivator. pocket money, it would be an obsolete phrase, as _ motivator. pocket money, it would be an obsolete phrase, as is _ motivator. pocket money, it would be an obsolete phrase, as is the - motivator. pocket money, it would be an obsolete phrase, as is the check i an obsolete phrase, as is the check is in the post. natalie, what about the point about giving? we is in the post. natalie, what about the point about giving?— the point about giving? we are seeinu a the point about giving? we are seeing a number _ the point about giving? we are seeing a number of _ the point about giving? we are seeing a number of charities i the point about giving? we are l seeing a number of charities are getting very worried about their takings, particularly those that rely on donation boxes because as most of your listeners have said, people don't carry cash any more. there are wider implications. another one of your listeners made the point about boot car sales in rural areas. a lot of very local low—cost activity does rely on cash. we do risk marginalising local, cheap activities where people are not going to invest in card readers. also, it was wonderful hearing from pam. i was thinking as she was talking about automation and also the importance of human contact. absolutely, the importance of human contact. having cash gives her the independence, she can do some of her own shopping, but notjust the independents to do a bit of shopping that mattered so much to people with dementia and all of us, it is face to face human interactions. one of the things that stands out for me, if you are paying contactless, it can be easy to automate the payment, tap here, no interaction, even when you are at a telkom human being, there is a much quicker transaction than when you count out the moneyand give you change and time to talk —— when you are at a till with a human being. that is something we lose when we move away from cash potentially. when we move away from cash potentially-— when we move away from cash otentiall . ., , . ., , potentially. dangerous and worrying thin . s since potentially. dangerous and worrying things since contactless _ potentially. dangerous and worrying things since contactless came - potentially. dangerous and worrying things since contactless came in, i things since contactless came in, doesn't mean anything, means less because you are not physically seen it. i said earlier on yourjust going ping. i have had a text saying it is a bleep. keep your thoughts coming, pretty pearl cash, i have to tell you. 08085 909693, 85058, is at motor —— is a time to withdraw cash? what are your thoughts? here is the news from al tansley. wet weather blamed for a 1.2% drop in retail sales injuly. cost of living is said to be a factor in the latest figures from the ofs showing an increase of 0.6% the previous month. banks and building societies have been warned they must provide access to cash or face fines. the treasury says free cash withdrawals and deposits must be available within one mile for people in urban areas and three miles in rural areas. police in the us state of georgia are investigating death threats to jurors who voted to indict donald trump of criminal charges of trying to overturn the election result in 2020. personal details of 23 members of the grand jury have been shared online. officials in russia say a drone has been shot down by its air defences over central moscow. less than three miles from the kremlin. witnesses say a loud explosion was heard across the area. that is the news. fifa president says equal pay at the men's and women's world cups would only be a symbol that would not solve anything unless additional development targets for women's football are achieved. the prize pot for the current women's world cup is worth £86 million compared with 346 million which was awarded at the men's tournament last year. chelsea women's manager says laurenjames women's manager says lauren james would women's manager says laurenjames would be ready if she is recalled to england starting 11 for the world cup final against spain on sunday. forward james is available again after serving a suspension. the england rugby union head coach says he is disappointed and bemused of the world will be appealed against the decision to overturn owen farrell red card. he could not potentially miss all four of england's world cup games month. carlos alcaraz and novak djokovic through to the quarterfinals of the cincinnati open. they are among those preparing for the us open starting on the of august. —— the 28th of august. got a really good one for you at ten, radio only from 10am on radio 5 live, on bbc sounds, there are other methods as well. take this with you wherever you go. the lionesses, for everyone? world cup final, england expects. does wales, scotland and northern ireland expect? people who normally like football, do they feel estranged or antipathetic to the men's game, what do you think? women's football, no history of antagonism, hooliganism, no exceptionalism. might be someone who never watches men's football but you tune in for this because you think it is a beautiful game but it is nicer, a better manifestation of it. more than 11 million watched the semifinal, i watched more than 11 million watched the semifinal, iwatched it more than 11 million watched the semifinal, i watched it with my daughters. i am scottish, semifinal, i watched it with my daughters. lam scottish, born semifinal, i watched it with my daughters. i am scottish, born in england, they were crying at the end of it because of what it meant for women's sport, apart from anything else. the tribalism, it is something that football fans understand when it comes to the welsh, the irish, the scots, and i tweeted the other day, my daughters are crying on final whistle, interesting responses. a man called mcgregor tweeted me to say, can't wait till spain spoil the celebrations. another, we will never hear the end of it if they win, just like 1966. come on. surely we are better than that? anyway, that is at ten, or the lionesses for everyone? look at this, any, personal finance journalist, natalie, still with us, fliss still with us, business reporter, and mandy in grimsby, i know you have to toddle off in five minutes, before you do, what do you think? ~ ., minutes, before you do, what do you think? a, .' minutes, before you do, what do you think?_ hello. - minutes, before you do, what do you think?_ hello. is- minutes, before you do, what do you think?_ hello. is it i think? morning, nicky. hello. is it time to withdraw _ think? morning, nicky. hello. is it time to withdraw cash? _ think? morning, nicky. hello. is it time to withdraw cash? what - think? morning, nicky. hello. is it time to withdraw cash? what do i think? morning, nicky. hello. is it. time to withdraw cash? what do you think? i time to withdraw cash? what do you think? , . . , time to withdraw cash? what do you think? , ..,, ., time to withdraw cash? what do you think? , , ., . time to withdraw cash? what do you think? , . think? i use cash as much as possible- _ think? i use cash as much as possible- it _ think? i use cash as much as possible. it allows _ think? i use cash as much as possible. it allows me - think? i use cash as much as possible. it allows me to - think? i use cash as much as possible. it allows me to be| think? i use cash as much as - possible. it allows me to be debt free and have control over my spending. i don't earn a lot of money so what i do is when i get paid by withdraw cash for food, spending money, any sort of things i have got coming up, and i keep it in separate places. i use a budget. and i withdraw... i take my month's worth of food shopping at and each week i go to my place where i keep it at home and i go shopping with it. what is left over, i save for christmas or if i wanted to treat my family. that way i can keep control of what i have got and i don't get into debt. i of what i have got and i don't get into debt. . ., ., , into debt. i am going to bring in an show into debt. i am going to bring in any show on _ into debt. i am going to bring in any show on this, _ into debt. i am going to bring in any show on this, personal - into debt. i am going to bring in i any show on this, personal finance journalist. what would you say to mandy? —— annie shaw. she makes some fine points. mandy? -- annie shaw. she makes some fine oints. a, .' mandy? -- annie shaw. she makes some fine oints. . fine points. morning, nicky. i am deel fine points. morning, nicky. i am deeply sympathetic _ fine points. morning, nicky. i am deeply sympathetic about - fine points. morning, nicky. i am deeply sympathetic about the - fine points. morning, nicky. i am| deeply sympathetic about the way people _ deeply sympathetic about the way people budget with cash. the fact is, it_ people budget with cash. the fact is, it is_ people budget with cash. the fact is, it is going the way of the dinosaurs, _ is, it is going the way of the dinosaurs, it is fading away. should it be abolished overnight? absolutely not. are we going to see it disappear practically tightly but perhaps— it disappear practically tightly but perhaps not 100%, almost certainly. the figures — perhaps not 100%, almost certainly. the figures show the decline of the use of— the figures show the decline of the use of cash. it is because people find using — use of cash. it is because people find using contactless so much more convenient — find using contactless so much more convenient. this was shown in covid when _ convenient. this was shown in covid when people were forced into using cards _ when people were forced into using cards because people believed coins and notes _ cards because people believed coins and notes were somehow going to give you infection and i think this was probably— you infection and i think this was probably misplaced but people believe — probably misplaced but people believe that and retailers took advantage of that situation. i compared the situation we are in now perhaps— compared the situation we are in now perhaps with looking right back to the beginning of banking when people used to— the beginning of banking when people used to go and deposit gold with the bank and _ used to go and deposit gold with the bank and they wanted the gold coins back bank and they wanted the gold coins hack and _ bank and they wanted the gold coins hack and i_ bank and they wanted the gold coins back and i got used to the idea of getting _ back and i got used to the idea of getting an — back and i got used to the idea of getting an account and getting a statement and getting the value of it out— statement and getting the value of it out in— statement and getting the value of it out in terms of bits of paper. how— it out in terms of bits of paper. how astonishing is that? a bit of paper— how astonishing is that? a bit of paper saying, i promise to on demand pay the _ paper saying, i promise to on demand pay the sum _ paper saying, i promise to on demand pay the sum of £1, whatever was written _ pay the sum of £1, whatever was written on — pay the sum of £1, whatever was written on them. people got used to that and _ written on them. people got used to that and then suddenly the notes became — that and then suddenly the notes became the thing they wanted. the same _ became the thing they wanted. the same for— became the thing they wanted. the same for checks. never going to be honoured _ same for checks. never going to be honoured but of course now people are campaigning to maintain checks. i think— are campaigning to maintain checks. i think we _ are campaigning to maintain checks. i think we need cash still, but it is going — i think we need cash still, but it is going to _ i think we need cash still, but it is going to disappear and many people — is going to disappear and many people who are resistant to the disappearance of cash when they can to look— disappearance of cash when they can to look at_ disappearance of cash when they can to look at their own circumstances find they— to look at their own circumstances find they can manage without it. it find they can manage without it. it is find they can manage without it. is going on find they can manage without it. it is going on one — find they can manage without it. it is going on one of _ find they can manage without it. it is going on one of the _ find they can manage without it. it is going on one of the things - find they can manage without it. it is going on one of the things i - is going on one of the things i thought- -- — is going on one of the things i thought... mandy, _ is going on one of the things i thought... mandy, it- is going on one of the things i thought... mandy, it is- is going on one of the things i | thought... mandy, it is going? is going on one of the things i - thought... mandy, it is going? let me ut it thought... mandy, it is going? let me put it to _ thought... mandy, it is going? let me put it to mandy. _ thought... mandy, it is going? let me put it to mandy. hang - thought... mandy, it is going? let me put it to mandy. hang on. - thought... mandy, it is going? let. me put it to mandy. hang on. mandy, what do you think about what you heard? really interesting points. i do think it is interesting but i also think when you deal with cash, when you get it in your hand, it makes you look at it twice about how you spend it because once it is gone, it is gone. and i think when it is in a bank, it isjust figures, numbers, and i don't think people see the value of it as much as when you have got the cash. if you go to a shop and you only have £30, you're not going to spend 60. you can do if you have a card. not going to spend 60. you can do if you have a card-— not going to spend 60. you can do if you have a card.- i— not going to spend 60. you can do if you have a card. yeah. i understand what she is — you have a card. yeah. i understand what she is saying _ you have a card. yeah. i understand what she is saying but _ you have a card. yeah. i understand what she is saying but i _ you have a card. yeah. i understand what she is saying but i also - you have a card. yeah. i understand what she is saying but i also think when you are dealing in cash, you are less likely to be in debt. annie shaw, are less likely to be in debt. annie shaw. and — are less likely to be in debt. annie shaw, and also, _ are less likely to be in debt. annie shaw, and also, you _ are less likely to be in debt. annie shaw, and also, you know, - are less likely to be in debt. annie shaw, and also, you know, card, i shaw, and also, you know, card, digital, as we heard from monday, it is notional, it is kind of abstract. two things that occurred to me, data harvesting is much easier obviously with digital and what about rural communities where there is a terrible... i wanted a stronger word, but you know what a mean —— you know what i mean. terrible signal. give me a date. when do you think effectively cash will be gone, annie shaw? i think effectively cash will be gone, annie shaw?— annie shaw? i don't think it is aroin to annie shaw? i don't think it is going to go — annie shaw? i don't think it is going to go completely, - annie shaw? i don't think it is going to go completely, but i | annie shaw? i don't think it is i going to go completely, but i do think— going to go completely, but i do think there will be this increasing move _ think there will be this increasing move against it. the thing about car-hoot — move against it. the thing about car—boot sales in rural areas, case in point _ car—boot sales in rural areas, case in point yes. _ car—boot sales in rural areas, case in point. yes, you need cash to conduct — in point. yes, you need cash to conduct those. if we get a better digital— conduct those. if we get a better digital service, that is when carpet sellers _ digital service, that is when carpet sellers will — digital service, that is when carpet sellers will actually want to have the card — sellers will actually want to have the card scanners, apple pay, one of those, _ the card scanners, apple pay, one of those, the _ the card scanners, apple pay, one of those, the technology has not caught up. those, the technology has not caught up you _ those, the technology has not caught up you can _ those, the technology has not caught up. you can compare it with the telephone _ up. you can compare it with the telephone. i am old enough to know when _ telephone. i am old enough to know when people don't have telephones. nowadays _ when people don't have telephones. nowadays the complaint is landline telephones may be taken out and people _ telephones may be taken out and people have not got smartphones. that is— people have not got smartphones. that is the — people have not got smartphones. that is the complaint. people are campaigning to keep the old phones they never— campaigning to keep the old phones they never had. this isjust the progress — they never had. this isjust the progress of technology. the phone thin is a progress of technology. the phone thing is a very _ progress of technology. the phone thing is a very interesting - progress of technology. the phone thing is a very interesting analogy. before you go, fliss, what are we talking about? 2030, 2040, what is the timeline? i talking about? 2030, 2040, what is the timeline?— the timeline? i think it is expected it is 'ust the timeline? i think it is expected it isjust going _ the timeline? i think it is expected it isjust going to _ the timeline? i think it is expected it isjust going to continue. - it isjust going to continue. certainly— it isjust going to continue. certainly accelerated - it isjust going to continue. i certainly accelerated during it isjust going to continue. - certainly accelerated during covid and a _ certainly accelerated during covid and a lot — certainly accelerated during covid and a lot of— certainly accelerated during covid and a lot of places _ certainly accelerated during covid and a lot of places and _ certainly accelerated during covid i and a lot of places and businesses. a fairly— and a lot of places and businesses. a fairly widespread _ and a lot of places and businesses. a fairly widespread belief- and a lot of places and businesses. a fairly widespread belief by- and a lot of places and businesses. a fairly widespread belief by the i a fairly widespread belief by the early— a fairly widespread belief by the early 20 — a fairly widespread belief by the early 20 30s— a fairly widespread belief by the early 20 30s we _ a fairly widespread belief by the early 20 30s we might - a fairly widespread belief by the early 20 30s we might see - a fairly widespread belief by the early 20 30s we might see a - a fairly widespread belief by the i early 20 30s we might see a real shift _ early 20 30s we might see a real shift away — early 20 30s we might see a real shift away. something _ early 20 30s we might see a real shift away. something that - early 20 30s we might see a real shift away. something that is - early 20 30s we might see a real. shift away. something that is really striking _ shift away. something that is really striking me — shift away. something that is really striking me in— shift away. something that is really striking me in this, _ shift away. something that is really striking me in this, almost- shift away. something that is really striking me in this, almost pitting i striking me in this, almost pitting people _ striking me in this, almost pitting people who — striking me in this, almost pitting people who want _ striking me in this, almost pitting people who want cash _ striking me in this, almost pitting people who want cash and - striking me in this, almost pitting people who want cash and peoplej striking me in this, almost pitting - people who want cash and people who are entirely— people who want cash and people who are entirely digital— people who want cash and people who are entirely digital against _ people who want cash and people who are entirely digital against each - are entirely digital against each other— are entirely digital against each other in— are entirely digital against each other in this _ are entirely digital against each other in this debate _ are entirely digital against each other in this debate and - are entirely digital against each other in this debate and there i are entirely digital against each i other in this debate and there are 23 million — other in this debate and there are 23 million people _ other in this debate and there are 23 million people according - other in this debate and there are 23 million people according to- other in this debate and there are 23 million people according to uk| 23 million people according to uk finance _ 23 million people according to uk finance who — 23 million people according to uk finance who did _ 23 million people according to uk finance who did not _ 23 million people according to uk finance who did not use - 23 million people according to uk finance who did not use cash, - 23 million people according to uk| finance who did not use cash, only used _ finance who did not use cash, only used it_ finance who did not use cash, only used it a _ finance who did not use cash, only used it a maximum _ finance who did not use cash, only used it a maximum of— finance who did not use cash, only used it a maximum of once - finance who did not use cash, only used it a maximum of once a - finance who did not use cash, only. used it a maximum of once a month in 202t _ used it a maximum of once a month in 202t the _ used it a maximum of once a month in 202t the same — used it a maximum of once a month in 2021. the same year— used it a maximum of once a month in 2021. the same year there _ used it a maximum of once a month in 2021. the same year there were - used it a maximum of once a month in 2021. the same year there were 1.1- 2021. the same year there were 1.1 million _ 2021. the same year there were 1.1 million people _ 2021. the same year there were 1.1 million people who _ 2021. the same year there were 1.1 million people who mainly- 2021. the same year there were 1.1 million people who mainly used - 2021. the same year there were 1.1 i million people who mainly used cash. the numbers— million people who mainly used cash. the numbers are _ million people who mainly used cash. the numbers are very— million people who mainly used cash. the numbers are very different - million people who mainly used cash. the numbers are very different but i the numbers are very different but for the _ the numbers are very different but for the h — the numbers are very different but for the 1.1 million, _ the numbers are very different but for the 1.1 million, they— the numbers are very different but for the 1.1 million, they are - the numbers are very different but for the 1.1 million, they are really. for the 1.1 million, they are really relying _ for the 1.1 million, they are really relying on— for the 1.1 million, they are really relying on having _ for the 1.1 million, they are really relying on having cash. _ for the 1.1 million, they are really relying on having cash. i- for the 1.1 million, they are really| relying on having cash. i thought, in between — relying on having cash. i thought, in between that, _ relying on having cash. i thought, in between that, a _ relying on having cash. i thought, in between that, a huge - relying on having cash. i thought, in between that, a huge swathesl relying on having cash. i thought, i in between that, a huge swathes of people _ in between that, a huge swathes of people who — in between that, a huge swathes of people who are _ in between that, a huge swathes of people who are using _ in between that, a huge swathes of people who are using both, - in between that, a huge swathes of people who are using both, using i people who are using both, using digital— people who are using both, using digital and — people who are using both, using digital and cash _ people who are using both, using digital and cash and _ people who are using both, using digital and cash and they- people who are using both, using digital and cash and they perhaps enjoy— digital and cash and they perhaps enjoy the — digital and cash and they perhaps enjoy the convenience _ digital and cash and they perhaps enjoy the convenience of - digital and cash and they perhaps enjoy the convenience of having i enjoy the convenience of having both _ enjoy the convenience of having both what _ enjoy the convenience of having both. what today— enjoy the convenience of having both. what today has _ enjoy the convenience of having both. what today has shown - enjoy the convenience of having both. what today has shown it i enjoy the convenience of havingi both. what today has shown it is enjoy the convenience of having - both. what today has shown it is not a debate _ both. what today has shown it is not a debate that— both. what today has shown it is not a debate that will— both. what today has shown it is not a debate that will be _ both. what today has shown it is not a debate that will be easily- both. what today has shown it is not a debate that will be easily settled i a debate that will be easily settled even if _ a debate that will be easily settled even if the — a debate that will be easily settled even if the trend _ a debate that will be easily settled even if the trend is— a debate that will be easily settled even if the trend is really- a debate that will be easily settled even if the trend is really in- a debate that will be easily settled even if the trend is really in one i even if the trend is really in one direction — even if the trend is really in one direction only. _ even if the trend is really in one direction only.— even if the trend is really in one direction only. thank you. do you invoice us — direction only. thank you. do you invoice us fairly _ direction only. thank you. do you invoice us fairly quickly, - direction only. thank you. do you invoice us fairly quickly, fliss, i direction only. thank you. do you invoice us fairly quickly, fliss, or| invoice us fairly quickly, fliss, or do you want cash?— invoice us fairly quickly, fliss, or do you want cash? from you, nicky, and need cash- _ do you want cash? from you, nicky, and need cash. sounds _ do you want cash? from you, nicky, and need cash. sounds a _ do you want cash? from you, nicky, and need cash. sounds a bit - do you want cash? from you, nicky, and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy l do you want cash? from you, nicky, | and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy to me. we and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy to me- we are — and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy to me. we are getting _ and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy to me. we are getting so _ and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy to me. we are getting so many - and need cash. sounds a bit dodgy to me. we are getting so many calls, i me. we are getting so many calls, windfall, i have to say. i want to hear as many voices as possible between now and ten o'clock. keep it pithy. mark, what do you want to tell us? good morning, sir. goad tell us? good morning, sir. good morninr. tell us? good morning, sir. good morning- i— tell us? good morning, sir. good morning. i wanted _ tell us? good morning, sir. good morning. i wanted to _ tell us? good morning, sir. good morning. i wanted to tell - tell us? good morning, sir. good morning. i wanted to tell you - tell us? good morning, sir. (13mm morning. i wanted to tell you about the dangers of using contactless payments. i went to my local pub which is fantastic, by the way. i ended up paying £3900 for my pint of beer at the weekend which i am still waiting for my refund on. wait beer at the weekend which i am still waiting for my refund on.— waiting for my refund on. wait a minute, £3900 _ waiting for my refund on. wait a minute, £3900 for _ waiting for my refund on. wait a minute, £3900 for a _ waiting for my refund on. wait a minute, £3900 for a pint - waiting for my refund on. wait a minute, £3900 for a pint of- waiting for my refund on. wait a i minute, £3900 for a pint of beer, must have been good, real ale. how did it happen? real must have been good, real ale. how did it happen?— did it happen? real ale, beautiful. yeah, did it happen? real ale, beautiful. yeah. what _ did it happen? real ale, beautiful. yeah, what happened _ did it happen? real ale, beautiful. yeah, what happened was - did it happen? real ale, beautiful. | yeah, what happened was basically the amount was keyed in twice and i was under the assumption that contactless doesn't work if it is over £100, various checks in place, but it turns out that isn't the case and because i tapped my phone i ended up agreeing to pay 3900 and a bit for that. the error was discovered on the monday in as much as the credit card company contacted me and said you are at your limit. my me and said you are at your limit. my wife asked me whether or not i had paid... spent so much in the pub at the weekend. i said, no, i hadn't. i went to the pub at lunchtime and they were beside themselves, they saw me come in, realised what had happened, trying to contact me on facebook, so the arrow straightaway, but it has gone through, they keyed it twice. —— saw the error. it through, they keyed it twice. -- saw the error. . . through, they keyed it twice. -- saw the error. , . ., through, they keyed it twice. -- saw the error. , . . , ., , the error. it is a great story, cautionary — the error. it is a great story, cautionary tale, _ the error. it is a great story, cautionary tale, thank - the error. it is a great story, cautionary tale, thank you i the error. it is a great story, i cautionary tale, thank you very the error. it is a great story, - cautionary tale, thank you very much indeed, especially when you go for a pint tonight in the pub on friday night, watching on sunday morning, if you are up and about and fancy a pint then. marvin, norwich, what do you think, cashless society?- you think, cashless society? hello. yes, i believe... _ you think, cashless society? hello. yes, i believe... i— you think, cashless society? hello. yes, i believe... i agree _ you think, cashless society? hello. yes, i believe... i agree largely- yes, i believe... iagree largely with_ yes, i believe... iagree largely with what— yes, i believe... iagree largely with what annie shaw already said, we are _ with what annie shaw already said, we are moving towards a cashless society— we are moving towards a cashless society very quickly. it is inevitable it will happen. it is the way society evolves over time. they had way society evolves overtime. they had horses— way society evolves over time. they had horses back in the day, what we used _ had horses back in the day, what we used to— had horses back in the day, what we used to move around, transport. gradually— used to move around, transport. gradually and slowly, got replaced lry gradually and slowly, got replaced by cars _ gradually and slowly, got replaced by cars and motorised vehicles, all of it, _ by cars and motorised vehicles, all of it, everything. not all at once, goes _ of it, everything. not all at once, goes slowly, slow progression. changes— goes slowly, slow progression. changes over time. going to happen. moving _ changes over time. going to happen. moving very— changes over time. going to happen. moving very quickly towards a cashless— moving very quickly towards a cashless society. in the uk alone, cash _ cashless society. in the uk alone, cash is _ cashless society. in the uk alone, cash is being used less, 50% every single _ cash is being used less, 50% every single year~ — cash is being used less, 50% every single year. by 2045, at least full-scale _ single year. by 2045, at least full—scale cashless society. gk, full-scale cashless society. 0k, thank you _ full-scale cashless society. 0k, thank you very _ full-scale cashless society. 0k, thank you very much _ full—scale cashless society. ok, thank you very much indeed, full—scale cashless society. ok thank you very much indeed, as sure as night follows day, like the landline. marvin, a good one. sue, derbyshire, what is your view? itrefoil. derbyshire, what is your view? well, and aood derbyshire, what is your view? well, and good morning. _ derbyshire, what is your view? well, and good morning. hello, _ derbyshire, what is your view? vii and good morning. hello, nicky. my husband passed away in 2021. i had always felt —— i had always dealt with all the financial side of our household but i took the plunge and decided i would go online banking but only on the computer at home. i don't have the app on my phone in case it was lost. but i like the option if i want to pay by cash, i can, if i want to use my card, i can. i always ask for a receipt because then i have got proof of how much i have spent. i think we need to be looking at the wider implications of this. how do you teach your children about cash, the value of it, how to maintain it, how to manage it, so that they in turn become good money managers? and i think the best way is by actually physically being able to show them the cash and explain to them how much it is and what it will buy. great stuff. i wonder what martin lewis thinks about this, talking of money managers. i know he listens. give us a shout, i might dm him. fantastic guy. he is one to get hold of if you can. fantastic guy. he is one to get hold of if you can-— of if you can. thank you very much. you sound — of if you can. thank you very much. you sound like _ of if you can. thank you very much. you sound like my _ of if you can. thank you very much. you sound like my producer. - of if you can. thank you very much. you sound like my producer. you i of if you can. thank you very much. i you sound like my producer. you are right. thank you, sue, in derbyshire. she says we need to keep both. jason, hello. how is it going? martin lewis has a brilliant broadcast on bbc sounds. check it out. i am well, jason, looking forward to the weekend. likewise. it is about your dad's situation. tell us more. i is about your dad's situation. tell us more. . , ~ , us more. i agree with everything. my dad has dementia. _ us more. i agree with everything. my dad has dementia. very _ us more. i agree with everything. my dad has dementia. very difficult. - dad has dementia. very difficult. good _ dad has dementia. very difficult. good process in place, good support network _ good process in place, good support network around him. from a cashless point _ network around him. from a cashless point of— network around him. from a cashless point of view, — network around him. from a cashless point of view, he is consistently leaving — point of view, he is consistently leaving his _ point of view, he is consistently leaving his card wherever he goes, bars, _ leaving his card wherever he goes, bars, shops, — leaving his card wherever he goes, bars, shops, you have that process, difficult _ bars, shops, you have that process, difficult process, trying to retrieve _ difficult process, trying to retrieve and get new cards. from a scanning _ retrieve and get new cards. from a scanning process, the early stages of dementia, £1000 a week, and while you can _ of dementia, £1000 a week, and while you can get _ of dementia, £1000 a week, and while you can get the money back with access— you can get the money back with access requests, very time—consuming on the _ access requests, very time—consuming on the whole _ access requests, very time—consuming on the whole family. cash is absolutely critical to his well— being absolutely critical to his well—being during these difficult stages — well—being during these difficult stages. but i understand contactless, i get it, i love it, but certainly not from a vulnerable... there needs to be more debate _ vulnerable... there needs to be more debate if— vulnerable... there needs to be more debate if it_ vulnerable... there needs to be more debate if it is— vulnerable... there needs to be more debate if it is going to go contactless, cashless, about how we do that— contactless, cashless, about how we do that and — contactless, cashless, about how we do that and deal with those that are in the _ do that and deal with those that are in the vulnerable position.— in the vulnerable position. yeah, ro er in the vulnerable position. yeah, proper preparation _ in the vulnerable position. yeah, proper preparation for _ in the vulnerable position. yeah, proper preparation for it. - in the vulnerable position. yeah, proper preparation for it. did - in the vulnerable position. yeah, j proper preparation for it. did you say he was scanned to the tune of £1000 a week at one stage? yeah, the scanners, £1000 a week at one stage? yeah, the scanners. we — £1000 a week at one stage? yeah, the scanners, we have _ £1000 a week at one stage? yeah, the scanners, we have all— £1000 a week at one stage? yeah, the scanners, we have all the _ £1000 a week at one stage? yeah, the scanners, we have all the protection i scanners, we have all the protection in place _ scanners, we have all the protection in place on _ scanners, we have all the protection in place on his phone, we have got a recording _ in place on his phone, we have got a recording device, so we are able to -et recording device, so we are able to get all— recording device, so we are able to get all of— recording device, so we are able to get all of that, we are very good as a family— get all of that, we are very good as a family to — get all of that, we are very good as a family to interact and do that. —— scammers — a family to interact and do that. —— scammers. some cases, iam a family to interact and do that. —— scammers. some cases, i am there this weekend, three to four calls a day. _ this weekend, three to four calls a day, and _ this weekend, three to four calls a day. and my— this weekend, three to four calls a day, and my dad is a very believing, trusting. _ day, and my dad is a very believing, trusting. so— day, and my dad is a very believing, trusting, so he will happily give out his— trusting, so he will happily give out his card details to anyone that calls because he does not know. bless _ calls because he does not know. bless him — calls because he does not know. bless him. it takes a... not as much now if— bless him. it takes a... not as much now if i_ bless him. it takes a... not as much now if i am— bless him. it takes a... not as much now if i am honest, we are on top of it. now if i am honest, we are on top of it he _ now if i am honest, we are on top of it he gets _ now if i am honest, we are on top of it. he gets three, four to date in some _ it. he gets three, four to date in some circumstances, happy to give out those _ some circumstances, happy to give out those details, and you cannot do that if— out those details, and you cannot do that if you _ out those details, and you cannot do that if you have not got access. very— that if you have not got access. very difficult. from a vulnerable perspective, i think there is a lot that needs — perspective, i think there is a lot that needs to be understood, i would say. that needs to be understood, i would sa . . . that needs to be understood, i would sa , , ., . that needs to be understood, i would sa . , . . that needs to be understood, i would sa., . . say. great cool, excellent, jason, thank you- _ say. great cool, excellent, jason, thank you- lyon _ say. great cool, excellent, jason, thank you. lyon and _ say. great cool, excellent, jason, thank you. lyon and chester, - say. great cool, excellent, jason, thank you. lyon and chester, taxij thank you. lyon and chester, taxi driver, what do you think of this? i work as a taxi driver. every time i take a payment, i get charged between 1.69, 2.5% of the money i am taking foster every time somebody pays by card, makes the rich guy richer and the poor guy poorer. —— of the money i am taking. idefinat richer and the poor guy poorer. -- of the money i am taking.- richer and the poor guy poorer. -- of the money i am taking. what is it like on a friday _ of the money i am taking. what is it like on a friday night _ of the money i am taking. what is it like on a friday night when - of the money i am taking. what is it like on a friday night when you - of the money i am taking. what is it like on a friday night when you say, j like on a friday night when you say, that will be 13 quid? the like on a friday night when you say, that will be 13 quid?— that will be 13 quid? the 13 quid, the take that will be 13 quid? the 13 quid, they take 1.69. _ that will be 13 quid? the 13 quid, they take 1.69, depends - that will be 13 quid? the 13 quid, | they take 1.69, depends whether that will be 13 quid? the 13 quid, - they take 1.69, depends whether card comes from, if it is a foreign card, they charge 2.5. you mentioned the friday night, do you know how many people we pick up on friday night? especially the youngsters. they do not realise they are using their card all night and they run out of money and they try to go home from chester to somewhere in wales and they don't have the money because they don't have the money because they didn't realise they spent it all. their bank account is empty. hang on, the car has been —— the card has been blocked. thea;r hang on, the car has been -- the card has been blocked. they spent all the money _ card has been blocked. they spent all the money because _ card has been blocked. they spent all the money because they - card has been blocked. they spent all the money because they were i all the money because they were drinking, drunk, didn't realise he spent all the money. if he had the cash, he could see how much you spend and save the taxi fare to get home. they don't realise. sometimes they even argue with you, they go, i had £200 in my bank, yes, mate, you have been spending all night in the nightclub and you didn't realise what you are spending it on. also... go on. i what you are spending it on. also... go on- i was — what you are spending it on. also... go on. i wasjust _ what you are spending it on. also... go on. i wasjust going _ what you are spending it on. also... go on. i wasjust going to _ what you are spending it on. also... go on. i wasjust going to say, - what you are spending it on. also... go on. i wasjust going to say, i - go on. i wasjust going to say, i like to give a tip as well. easy to give a tip in cash.— give a tip in cash. yeah, people apologise _ give a tip in cash. yeah, people apologise to — give a tip in cash. yeah, people apologise to me, _ give a tip in cash. yeah, people apologise to me, sorry, - give a tip in cash. yeah, people apologise to me, sorry, i - give a tip in cash. yeah, people | apologise to me, sorry, i cannot give you any tips, i am paying by card. you can still pay tips by card. you can still pay tips by card. it is all done to you. the question to you, you said you had 25p in your wallet —— £25 in your wallet, if you drop your wallet, how many other cards do you have in your wallet? let many other cards do you have in your wallet? . . many other cards do you have in your wallet? , . ., many other cards do you have in your wallet? , . . ., ., ~' many other cards do you have in your wallet? , . . ., ., ~ ., wallet? let us have a look, one credit card. _ wallet? let us have a look, one credit card, an _ wallet? let us have a look, one credit card, an oyster— wallet? let us have a look, one credit card, an oyster card - wallet? let us have a look, one credit card, an oyster card for i credit card, an oyster card for travelling on the tube and stuff, not too bad. ii travelling on the tube and stuff, not too bad-— travelling on the tube and stuff, not too bad. , ., ., , . not too bad. if you drop the wallet, ou will not too bad. if you drop the wallet, you will lose _ not too bad. if you drop the wallet, you will lose £25 _ not too bad. if you drop the wallet, you will lose £25 cash, _ not too bad. if you drop the wallet, you will lose £25 cash, back - not too bad. if you drop the wallet, you will lose £25 cash, back in - not too bad. if you drop the wallet, you will lose £25 cash, back in the l you will lose £25 cash, back in the day. now if you lose your wallet, you are going to lose the 25, plus £100 from your credit card because somebody could tap it anywhere they wanted. in somebody could tap it anywhere they wanted._ in mcdonald's, l wanted. true, true. in mcdonald's, we used to — wanted. true, true. in mcdonald's, we used to drive _ wanted. true, true. in mcdonald's, we used to drive through _ wanted. true, true. in mcdonald's, i we used to drive through mcdonalds, he always saw the charity box full of money, change. nowadays, it looks empty, nobody drops any change in there as well.— there as well. thank you. i hope frida is there as well. thank you. i hope friday is ok _ there as well. thank you. i hope friday is ok tonight, _ there as well. thank you. i hope friday is ok tonight, busy - there as well. thank you. i hope friday is ok tonight, busy as - there as well. thank you. i hope i friday is ok tonight, busy as ever. yeah, hopefully. thank you. have a nice day. yeah, hopefully. thank you. have a nice da . ., ., . ,, ., nice day. youto. good talking to ou. nice day. youto. good talking to you- hello- _ nice day. youto. good talking to you. hello. good— nice day. youto. good talking to you. hello. good morning. - nice day. youto. good talking to j you. hello. good morning. what nice day. youto. good talking to i you. hello. good morning. what is our you. hello. good morning. what is your business? _ you. hello. good morning. what is your business? i— you. hello. good morning. what is your business? i am _ you. hello. good morning. what is your business? i am a _ you. hello. good morning. what is your business? i am a milliner, ii your business? i am a milliner, i make hats- _ your business? i am a milliner, i make hats. 0k. _ your business? i am a milliner, i make hats. 0k. where - your business? i am a milliner, i make hats. 0k. where are - your business? i am a milliner, i make hats. 0k. where are you i your business? i am a milliner, i- make hats. 0k. where are you hanging our hat on make hats. 0k. where are you hanging your hat on this — make hats. 0k. where are you hanging your hat on this debate? _ make hats. 0k. where are you hanging your hat on this debate? i _ make hats. 0k. where are you hanging your hat on this debate? i don't - your hat on this debate? i don't refuse cash _ your hat on this debate? i don't refuse cash and _ your hat on this debate? i don't refuse cash and a _ your hat on this debate? i don't refuse cash and a lot _ your hat on this debate? i don't refuse cash and a lot of - your hat on this debate? i don't refuse cash and a lot of my - refuse cash and a lot of my customers like to pay cash, but at the same — customers like to pay cash, but at the same time, i would rather not have _ the same time, i would rather not have it _ the same time, i would rather not have it at — the same time, i would rather not have it at the moment because it is costing _ have it at the moment because it is costing me — have it at the moment because it is costing me a lot of money to accept cash _ costing me a lot of money to accept cash i_ costing me a lot of money to accept cash i use — costing me a lot of money to accept cash. i use the bank locally and i would _ cash. i use the bank locally and i would take — cash. i use the bank locally and i would take the dog for a walk and go to the _ would take the dog for a walk and go to the bank— would take the dog for a walk and go to the bank and bank it. my bank is now locally— to the bank and bank it. my bank is now locally closed, we don't have a post office. — now locally closed, we don't have a post office, i cannot bank there, that closed a couple of months ago. i now— that closed a couple of months ago. i now have — that closed a couple of months ago. i now have to drive to the city centre — i now have to drive to the city centre which obviously takes time and money, i have to pay to park, and money, i have to pay to park, and on _ and money, i have to pay to park, and on top — and money, i have to pay to park, and on top of— and money, i have to pay to park, and on top of that, it cost me more to bank— and on top of that, it cost me more to bank cash— and on top of that, it cost me more to bank cash than to take card transactions. yes, iam to bank cash than to take card transactions. yes, i am a to bank cash than to take card transactions. yes, iam a bit to bank cash than to take card transactions. yes, i am a bit stuck. i never— transactions. yes, i am a bit stuck. i never say— transactions. yes, i am a bit stuck. i never say no _ transactions. yes, i am a bit stuck. i never say no to a customer, if people — i never say no to a customer, if people want to pay cash, they can. but i _ people want to pay cash, they can. but i cannot— people want to pay cash, they can. but i cannot bank it. that is the issue _ but i cannot bank it. that is the issue. customers think, i prefer cash— issue. customers think, i prefer cash for— issue. customers think, i prefer cash for certain reasons, but i don't — cash for certain reasons, but i don't. everything goes for my books, no matter— don't. everything goes for my books, no matter which way it is paid, it goes _ no matter which way it is paid, it goes through my books. all no matter which way it is paid, it goes through my books.- no matter which way it is paid, it goes through my books. all of the branches, many _ goes through my books. all of the branches, many branches, - goes through my books. all of the branches, many branches, they i goes through my books. all of the l branches, many branches, they are shutting, loads, every week, shutting, loads, every week, shutting down.— shutting, loads, every week, shutting down. shutting, loads, every week, shuttin: down. . . , shutting down. yeah, we have in my local sort of — shutting down. yeah, we have in my local sort of little _ shutting down. yeah, we have in my local sort of little shopping - shutting down. yeah, we have in my local sort of little shopping area, i local sort of little shopping area, i live _ local sort of little shopping area, i live just — local sort of little shopping area, i live just out of town, we have i think— i live just out of town, we have i think four, — i live just out of town, we have i think four, five banks, only one left _ think four, five banks, only one left and — think four, five banks, only one left, and that is not my bank. our post— left, and that is not my bank. our post office — left, and that is not my bank. our post office shut a couple of months a lo. post office shut a couple of months ago yeah — post office shut a couple of months ago. yeah. stock. you post office shut a couple of months ago. yeah. stock.— ago. yeah. stock. you are stuck. i have to say. _ ago. yeah. stock. you are stuck. i have to say, viewers _ ago. yeah. stock. you are stuck. i have to say, viewers on _ ago. yeah. stock. you are stuck. i have to say, viewers on bbc - ago. yeah. stock. you are stuck. i have to say, viewers on bbc two i ago. yeah. stock. you are stuck. i. have to say, viewers on bbc two and bbc news are leaving us now. the conversation continues on radio 5 live. live from london. this is bbc news russia says its air defences have shot down a drone over central moscow. police in georgia investigate threats to the jurors who voted to indict donald trump. saudi arabian officials confirm — the british government has invited crown prince mohammed bin salman, to the uk in october. more than 20,000 people in canada flee their homes — as wildfires bear down on the city of yellowknife. hello and welcome to the programme. russia says a drone has been shot down by its air defences over central moscow. witnesses say a loud explosion was heard across the area. the city's mayor said that debris fell near a large exhibition space which is less than five kilometres from the kremlin. there are no reports of casualties. the russian defence ministry claims ukraine was behind the attack. our correspondent in moscow — will vernon sent this update a little earlier. the russian capital under attack once again, the defence ministry said a drone had been shot down by anti—aircraft systems at around 4am local time last night. and as you say, they blamed ukraine for that attack. video on social media shows an explosion in the area of the moscow city business district, that is where

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