welcome to hardtalk, from new york. i'm at stephen sacker. this city is testament to the power of science and to. but we shouldn't be fooled by these gravity defying towers at —— technology. we are not masters of the universe. covid and climate change remind us of that. and so too does make yesterday, arguably america's most famous scientist, neil degrasse tyson. his special subject is astrophysics, but his mission goes much wider, to get us all to respect scientific fact. so how's that going? neil degrasse tyson, welcome to hardtalk. ., ~ , ., neil degrasse tyson, welcome to hardtalk._ your - neil degrasse tyson, welcome to hardtalk._ your day i hardtalk. thank you. your day “ob as hardtalk. thank you. your day job as being — hardtalk. thank you. your day job as being an _ hardtalk. thank you. your day job as being an astrophysicist, | job as being an astrophysicist, but you also one of america's leading champions for science. so you tell me why there appears to be such a strain of scepticism among so many americans toward the basics of scientific knowledge. i americans toward the basics of scientific knowledge.— scientific knowledge. i don't have a good _ scientific knowledge. i don't have a good answer- scientific knowledge. i don't have a good answer for- scientific knowledge. i don't have a good answer for thatj have a good answer for that anai poked around in the ether for what could be behind it and i'm going to give what sounds like an easy sort of copout answer, and it has to do with how science is taught in schools. it is currently taught as a body of information, a satchel of that that are imparted upon you and then you regurgitate that for an exam. that's an aspect of science, but it's not the most important part of science. the most important part of sciences knowing how to question things and knowing when an answer has emerged that represents sort of an objective truth about this world. and if you think science isjust world. and if you think science is just that one research paper that reports the one result that reports the one result that you either like or don't like, no, that's not how science works.— like, no, that's not how science works. it's not 'ust a block of i science works. it's not 'ust a block of facts. �* science works. it's not 'ust a block of facts. it's h science works. it's not 'ust a block of facts. it's not b science works. it's notjust a block of facts. it's not a - block of facts. it's not a block of facts. it's not a block of _ block of facts. it's not a block of facts _ block of facts. it's not a block of facts nor - block of facts. it's not a block of facts nor is - block of facts. it's not a block of facts nor is it i block of facts. it's not a - block of facts nor is it anyone research paper. if you have a brilliant idea and you tested on earth, so much of what has bitten a known before, we're going to double check that, the rest of us, did his cross his teas and dottie's eyes, let us check the power that is driving his experiments, the wall current, let me check how that was conceived and done. and if no—one can duplicate your results it is not a result. but at the time you came up with your results the press came up to you and said this is amazing, let's make a headline, this undoes the cherished beliefs of generations of scientists, and so it leaves people thinking that science doesn't really ever settle on what is true or what is not, that it what is true or what is not, thatitis what is true or what is not, that it is just the whims of whatever experiments gives you and i think it frees people up for thinking that they can establish their own truths. signs then requires open minds and wise curiosity. and i wonder whether you think you feel in your country today there is an absence of open minds. , ., , ., there is an absence of open minds. , .,, ., .,, minds. the people have lost track of what _ minds. the people have lost track of what open - minds. the people have lost track of what open mind - minds. the people have lost - track of what open mind means. when i say earth is round, you're not being open—minded by saying no, iwonder you're not being open—minded by saying no, i wonder if it could also be flat. you have to know at what point the evidence is sufficient to have established an objectively true understanding of the natural world. and then you move on. and if people don't have those tools to make thatjudgement, they will think that they are being bravely sceptical and bravely open—minded by standing in denial of what entire bodies of scientific evidence produced. that's a problem. anai will trace that back to how science is taught. it's how it was forced to me, it is how it was forced to me, it is how it was forced to me, it is how it was taught today. so that is an aspect of it. not only that, we live in a world where, because the internet connects us all and social media makes us all and social media makes us all and social media makes us all friends, you can type in any crazy idea you have and it will find every other person in this world who shares that crazy idea. you will even find a website that extols that crazy idea and you will believe that you are onto something, simply because other people have affirmed what you think is true. is have affirmed what you think is true. , . , ., true. is that where you feel america — true. is that where you feel america has _ true. is that where you feel america has been - true. is that where you feel america has been going? l true. is that where you feell america has been going? so true. is that where you feel. america has been going? so a sometimes wonder, like, has anything i've done made any difference? a sometimes file —— some fog feel that. and then i feel that maybe if they didn't do this and others on the science landscape, educators, on the social media platforms, and there are many, there are dozens, not hundreds, certainly dozens, not hundreds, certainly dozens, maybe without us all things would be much worse, because we don't have the time line, the world mind that says here's what happened if you didn't do it. 50 here's what happened if you didn't do it.— didn't do it. so that the missing _ didn't do it. so that the missing you _ didn't do it. so that the missing you feel, - didn't do it. so that the missing you feel, the i didn't do it. so that the - missing you feel, the crusade you continue to fight, but i want to take you right back. i don't like the word chris day, but that is your word. fair enough — but that is your word. fair enough will _ but that is your word. fair enough will stop - but that is your word. fair enough will stop crusade has a lot of historical baggage. it’s lot of historical baggage. it's a journey- — lot of historical baggage. it's a journey. how— lot of historical baggage. it's a journey. how did _ lot of historical baggage. it's a journey. how did a - lot of historical baggage. it's a journey. how did a kid - lot of historical baggage. it's| a journey. how did a kid from the bronx. — a journey. how did a kid from the bronx, who _ a journey. how did a kid from the bronx, who didn't- a journey. how did a kid from the bronx, who didn't really l the bronx, who didn't really have role models to look to in science back in the day, how did he get to be running the main planetarium in new york city, to be, perhaps, the most famous astrophysicist in the country? 50 famous astrophysicist in the count ? ., , ., , country? so a couple of things, first, i figured _ country? so a couple of things, first, i figured out _ country? so a couple of things, first, i figured out early - country? so a couple of things, first, i figured out early that i first, i figured out early that role models are overrated as a construct. in the following way. what is a role model? it is someone you have found who has achieved something but has a strongly overlapping historical journey to yours, maybe they grew in the same place, they are the same gender, they are the same whatever, you match up as much as you can and they landed where you want to land and then you emulate their path. and i thought myself "i don't want to be anybody else. ime." the very fact that there _ be anybody else. ime." the very fact that there were _ be anybody else. ime." the very fact that there were not - be anybody else. ime." the very fact that there were not people | fact that there were not people who look like you... crosstalk hold on, hold _ who look like you... crosstalk hold on, hold on, _ who look like you... crosstalk hold on, hold on, hold - who look like you... crosstalk hold on, hold on, hold on. - hold on, hold on, hold on. i'm only halfway through my answer. and when i'm done you will know that what you're about to ask is not even connected to where we are going here. so watch. ifound scientists who were brilliant and you all kinds... they were mostly, resources in the city, the american museum of natural history, which is the hayden ballantyne as part of it, that is educators and scientist, i found scientists and thought if i am every scientist that is the command of signs that i want. then i saw and educator and i thought such a beautiful turn of phrase and what a compelling storyteller, if i am every educator, that is the kind of educator i wanted to be. my father worked for the city government under mayor lindsey during the civil rights era and i said if they ever have to think about the plight of the disadvantaged in this world, i wanted with the way my father has, because he does it with compassion, even for the people who are screaming at those were just trying to integrate to school. he never had a bit of bone in his body. he saw them a sort of comes of their own up ringing, of their own immersion. so what i did, a cobbled together bits and pieces of people who had abilities and talents that are respected. a stable them together and they said "that is why want to be." and in there, yes, there are people with darker coloured skins who had achieved, but they didn't have to achieve astrophysics for me to achieve astrophysics for me to know what to ask how they navigated the hurdles that they confronted. why limit yourself to role models?— confronted. why limit yourself to role models?- all. to role models? right. all humans — to role models? right. all humans are _ to role models? right. all humans are out _ to role models? right. all humans are out there - to role models? right. all humans are out there and | to role models? right. all. humans are out there and are available to us to emulate, whether or not you even get to know them in person. so whether or not you even get to know them in person.- know them in person. so was there -- _ know them in person. so was there -- that _ know them in person. so was there -- that determination i there —— that determination which led you to believe that you could push frontiers from a very early age stop i'm now getting to a metaphorical notion of the frontiers you continue to push. i notion of the frontiers you continue to push.- notion of the frontiers you continue to push. i will say is not that i _ continue to push. i will say is not that i believe _ continue to push. i will say is not that i believe could - continue to push. i will say is not that i believe could do i continue to push. i will say is not that i believe could do it, just wanted to do it. i was deeply curious, from childhood, as we all are, but somehow it gets... it evaporates, may my middle school, certainly in teen years, something happens where it is no longer cherished to be curious in this world. if you managed to hold onto that into adulthood you are a scientist.— scientist. so here is the challenge _ scientist. so here is the challenge you _ scientist. so here is the challenge you face - scientist. so here is the i challenge you face today, scientist. so here is the - challenge you face today, how do you make people continuously curious about something that is the scale and scope of the universe, which, thanks to our technologies, we are learning more about every single day? how do you make them consistently curious when one could argue quite easily that the scale of all of this, that the scale of all of this, that the builyan upon billions of galaxies that we can now look at, far beyond our own, it's almost overwhelming, almost dehumanising. and yourjob is to somehow bring it back to us, with meaning, as human beings. how do you do it? i with meaning, as human beings. how do you do it?— how do you do it? i don't think i'm how do you do it? i don't think i'm making _ how do you do it? i don't think i'm making people _ how do you do it? i don't think i'm making people be - how do you do it? i don't think i'm making people be curious. | how do you do it? i don't think| i'm making people be curious. i am fanning embers that still glow from childhood. hoping to ignite them back into flames so that they can remember how fun it was to be curious about the unknown. i'm asserting that it not completely gone, that it can be resurrected within us all. and, yes, universe is immense, it can make you feel small, as it ought to, we all need an ego check every now and then. it is a cosmic perspective have on us all. it's a perspective that says however important you think you are and however significant you think your differences are with another human being who was living on the same planet, just take a look at earth from space. it will read benchmark all that you thought mattered in your tribe listed ways. there is a new generation of space telescope about to be deployed, which is going to take what hubble did and then exponentially increase the capacity to see, to the corners we haven't yet seen, of the universe. what really are you expecting it to tell us? fundamental things like truly whether there is scope for life out there? 50 whether there is scope for life out there?— whether there is scope for life out there? so this telescope is especially _ out there? so this telescope is especially tuned _ out there? so this telescope is especially tuned to _ out there? so this telescope is especially tuned to observe - out there? so this telescope is | especially tuned to observe the birth of galaxies and the origin of the universe. this remains a sort of a gap in our telescope access, the telescopes we have today, the way they are configured, they are not tuned for that. this one is exquisitely designed for that. so we know in advance where we want it to take us. but in addition, to be tuned for the edge of the universe also means it is tuned for pairing deep within gas clouds over our own milky way galaxy and it is within the gas cloud that you have the formation of next—generation style systems, planets, and possibly conditions for life as we know it. even better yet, life as we don't know it.— don't know it. but we sort of know one — don't know it. but we sort of know one of _ don't know it. but we sort of know one of the _ don't know it. but we sort of. know one of the fundamentals, the national academy of sciences's recent report what is coming up next over the next decade in space exploration... by decade in space exploration... by the way, we do that each decade, it is one of the things we are protasov, it is a jack hale service, we get together and say let's prioritise ten years of money. and that is what they say for this one, the coming decades will set humanity down a path to determine whether we are alone. yes, we're going to get an answer in the sense that, i know if we are alone, but in every way we can imagine we are not alone we are going to perform experiments for testing and that is what is going to unfold over the next years. on mars and on the icy moons of jupiter, where beneath it is kept warm from stress from jupiter's gravity and the tugging of other moons, the anyth the frozen surface there is oceans of liquid water. and every place on earth we have liquid water we have life. so one of nasa's launches and the european space agency, among others in this group, is follow the water. maybe if we look for where the water is a once was we will have evidence of life thatis we will have evidence of life that is all once was. and that is all being lined up in the coming decade. yes. rah? is all being lined up in the coming decade. yes. why is it that if we _ coming decade. yes. why is it that if we bring _ coming decade. yes. why is it that if we bring this _ coming decade. yes. why is it that if we bring this down - coming decade. yes. why is it that if we bring this down to i that if we bring this down to the prosaic human level that the prosaic human level that the united states government, which was so committed, everything back to the 1960s and 1970s, in pushing for space exploration, as a national priority, spending more than 4% of national income on the space programme, why is it that today that figure is down to 0.5% and the us government, frankly, apart from the notion of building a space force for military protection purposes, doesn't really seem that committed to space? yes, it is a lowered _ committed to space? yes, it is a lowered national— committed to space? yes, it is a lowered national priority. - committed to space? yes, it is a lowered national priority. it. a lowered national priority. it is because we all bought into something that was delusional. in 1960 we told ourselves we are americans, explorers, we are americans, explorers, we are discovers, it is in human dna, especially our dna, we're going to the moon. all right, can tell you based on my read of history is insufficient driver to spend the hundred billion dollars in modern money that that required. insufficient driver. you need a better driver than that and just because you want to do it or because you are feeling that thatis or because you are feeling that that is the right thing. 0h, remember what it is, we are at war. 0h remember what it is, we are at war. oh my gosh! we had a cold war. oh my gosh! we had a cold war with the soviet union. kennedy's speech where he said let's put a man on the moon and returning him safely, that is what we quote, that is the quote in the front entrance of the kennedy space center in florida. how about the rest of the speech, from which this quote was... that is not on the granite. plenty of room to chiselled on the granite, no. what else was in that speech? this is almost verbatim" if the events of recent weeks, he couldn't even out of the man's man, you're a gagarin, if the events of recent weeks are any indication of the impact of this adventure on the minds of men everywhere, then we need to show the world the path of freedom over the path of tyranny." it was the battle cry against communism. that's why we went to the moon. crosstalk. so a military _ we went to the moon. crosstalk. so a military driver— we went to the moon. crosstalk. so a military driver is, _ so a military driver is, without question, the greatest of them all. the i don't want to die driver. and that's what's going on now. so the question _ what's going on now. so the question right _ what's going on now. so the question right now- what's going on now. so the question right now is - what's going on now. so the i question right now is whether, actually, a huge amount of resources being wasted. nasa is committed on getting back to the men, they have had you put it back a year because they short of money, they are nothing that would amount on the moon by 2025. they have a longer term plan to put human beings on mars. but is any of this really very useful? maybe we are miss spending our money. maybe the people likejeff bezos and elon musk and others who have become obsessed with space, they are wasting their money too. we have so many problems to fix on this planet of ours, this fragile planet, isn't there a case for saying, as prince william did the other day, it is absurd to spend all this money on that kind of space exploration? for many --eole space exploration? for many people who _ space exploration? for many people who after _ space exploration? for many people who after this, - space exploration? for many people who after this, they i space exploration? for many i people who after this, they see this great expense of rocket and telescopes and moon ships and telescopes and moon ships and then they say we can do that, but we kinda and say how much money you think we are actually spending up there? and they will come up with a number thatis they will come up with a number that is typically ten times what we are actually spending. and i'd say, ok, you know why they think that? because when nasa does anything it is way more visible than when anybody else spends money in the federal government. i will tell you, one of the great forces operating on whether a kid wants to go into science is are there places they can dream? are there, and i say, we are going to the moon, and you want to be the first kid on mars? yes! yes! and they dream. if they want to be an engineer or a mathematician, and all of a sudden you have something that stokes the educational pipeline with ambitions of students that stream about wanting to do something scientific and technological in this world and those are the advances that bring about the changes that feed people, that create health and wealth and security. now we can talk about the billionaires. the billionaires are opening a new tourism industry. i don't have a problem with that. this is what the dawn of aviation was. only rich people of famous people flew in aeroplanes in the 1920s and 1930s. anna became a whole industry. now millions of people fly every day. if you were around back then you saying stop wasting your money on this dunce? this biplane thing, well, this is a stunt. so, dare i say, though you are the host of this programme, that i'm glad people with attitudes such as that do not win the day among those who are trying to advance what civilisation can be and all the ways that technology can empower it. $5 ways that technology can empower it.— ways that technology can empower it. ways that technology can emower it. �* , ., , empower it. as the host of this programme--- _ programme... laughter. they actually want to bring you back down to earth and i want to ask your question i suspect you are not going to find easy to answer. but you, having become one of america's most famous popular rises, sort of messages for science, you, in recent years, you ran into some significant personal trouble. you faced allegations from women you had worked with, from women you had worked with, from academic colleagues, of abusive behaviour. now, they never reached a court room, nothing was ever put before a jury nothing was ever put before a jury or a court... 50 nothing was ever put before a jury or a court. . ._ jury or a court... so why are ou jury or a court... so why are you mentioning? _ jury or a court... so why are you mentioning? only - jury or a court... so why are i you mentioning? only because jury or a court... so why are - you mentioning? only because i would like _ you mentioning? only because i would like you _ you mentioning? only because i would like you to _ you mentioning? only because i would like you to reflect - you mentioning? only because i would like you to reflect on - would like you to reflect on what they taught you, not just about the world you study, or the university study, but about deeper personal things. did you learn from the experience you went through? 50 learn from the experience you went through?— went through? so you're basically _ went through? so you're basically referring - went through? so you're basically referring to - went through? so you're basically referring to the j went through? so you're - basically referring to the me too movement in all of that encompassed. they can tell you that we knew enough about workplace environment that me too could happen 30, 40, 50 years ago, especially when people started entering the workforce is in large numbers. so that was, that was a long overdue movement and any elderly woman who was active in the workplace decades ago will have no end of stories. so these stories are not new. so i'm very glad it finally make it look it needed social media for that to happen —— that it aired. for that to happen -- that it aired. ,, ,, �* aired. crosstalk. i am answering - aired. crosstalk. i am answering it. | aired. crosstalk. - i am answering it. that was, aired. crosstalk. _ i am answering it. that was, i think, long overdue. so i think any time there's you have to ask, well, what are the forces operating on that movement and how are they going to manifest? and i'm happy we live in a world, by and large, where an active accusation is not itself active accusation is not itself a verdict of guilt. 0k? active accusation is not itself a verdict of guilt. ok? if it is, that's a different country, that's a different legal system, if that's sufficient then you just indict people by up or down vote based on how things are reported in the press and what people think is true or what they even want to be true... true or what they even want to be true- - -_ true or what they even want to be true- - -— true or what they even want to betrue... ,,,, ~ �* be true... crosstalk i'm asking something _ be true... crosstalk i'm asking something slightly _ be true... crosstalk i'm asking something slightly different, - something slightly different, about whether you reflect on whether you needed to change some of your behaviours? that very question presupposes guilt. that very question presupposes auilt. ., ., that very question presupposes uilt, ., ., ., that very question presupposes uuilt. ., ., ., of that very question presupposes guilt._ of course - that very question presupposes guilt._ of course it. guilt. not at all. of course it does. i would _ guilt. not at all. of course it does. i would say _ guilt. not at all. of course it does. i would say that - guilt. not at all. of course it does. i would say that i - guilt. not at all. of course it does. i would say that i was| does. i would say that i was glad for investigations. i'm glad for investigations. i'm glad for investigations. i'm glad for that. as any such situation should be subjected to. that's called civilisation. otherwise what kind of world are we building for ourselves? if guilt isjust are we building for ourselves? if guilt is just established by what people want or feel should be what's going on in the world. so that's how that... was delighted that everything got investigated. i'm very happy for that. b, got investigated. i'm very happy for that.— got investigated. i'm very happy for that. a final thought the bills happy for that. a final thought the mus and — happy for that. a final thought the bills and what _ happy for that. a final thought the bills and what you - happy for that. a final thought the bills and what you just - the bills and what you just said, we have to think about what kind of world we are building. —— bills. iwonder, as you reflect on your long career and you look at where we as a desire to date and our relationship with our own planet and is a sustainable future, whether, actually, our biggest problems aren't sort of making sense of or understanding the universe beyond, but our biggest problem is understanding ourselves properly, understanding what motivates us and why we find it so very difficult to collaborate to do things which can sustain our life on this planet, never mind what lies beyond? i planet, never mind what lies be ond? ., . planet, never mind what lies be ond? ~ ., ., beyond? i think we are not alwa s beyond? i think we are not always wise _ beyond? i think we are not always wise about - beyond? i think we are not always wise about how - beyond? i think we are not| always wise about how best beyond? i think we are not. always wise about how best to use our own discoveries in the interests of our own survival. that wisdom i think lags. we invented social media, that's really cool, and then we find out that entire factions get together, feed misinformation, and it shifts the politics of the world, that they can't be good. so don't think we saw that coming... in good. so don't think we saw that coming. . ._ that coming... in a way that absolutely _ that coming... in a way that absolutely gets _ that coming... in a way that absolutely gets to _ that coming... in a way that absolutely gets to the - that coming... in a way that absolutely gets to the nub l that coming... in a way that| absolutely gets to the nub of this conversation. we are getting ever more knowledgeable, but are we getting wiser? i knowledgeable, but are we getting wiser?— getting wiser? i think the wisdom... _ getting wiser? i think the wisdom... so... - getting wiser? i think the wisdom... so... i- getting wiser? i think the wisdom... so... idon'ti getting wiser? i think the - wisdom... so... i don't know. buttai do no we need a tandem, we need someone right next to every, kind of walking alongside, as the net device, the next bit of technology, especially when the technology wield power. 0h especially when the technology wield power. oh my gosh, there is always someone walking among us who has nefarious objectives and will use some of our greatest technology for the unravelling of civilisation. that's always been the case. i don't think that's a new thing. so that's a problem. so the wisdom is are we wise enough to control the power that we create for ourselves? and i don't think we are. not yet. that is a moment we have two ends, with something hanging, very much hanging in the air. neil degrasse tyson, thank you very much indeed for being on hardtalk. hello there. there are some significant changes on the way over the weekend ahead. as we get closer to christmas, it's going to be low pressure shaping our weather, bringing with it some cloud and rain from the atlantic and lifting the temperatures as well. there's still the chance of some snow, and this looks more likely to be in scotland for a while. we start monday with the coldest weather in scotland with the clearer skies and a frost. more cloud pushing into other areas, and the mist and fog will continue to lift. as the cloud base lifts, the cloud thins and the skies should be a bit brighter. best of the sunshine, probably northern and western areas of scotland. there'll be more cloud in northwest england and wales than we had on sunday, so we're not going to reach the 15 degrees that we had in pembrokeshire. i think 6—8 degrees will be nearer the mark. high pressure is still close to the uk, hence the quietness of the weather. it is starting to recede, but underneath the high pressure, we'll probably have clearer skies as we move into tuesday morning. so, probably a bit more blue on the chart, a greater chance of having some frost across england and wales, for example. that's where we should see, hopefully, a bit more sunshine, perhaps, on tuesday during the day. more cloud continues to affect northern ireland, and in scotland, it's probably going to turn more cloudy more widely. in the north of the country, there could be a bit of light rain or drizzle as well. the winds are still light, but it's quite a cold day on tuesday. probably only four degrees through the central belt of scotland as that cloud increases, and seven in the southeast of england. now, we really set things up for the middle part of the week as that big area of low pressure is filling the atlantic. pressure is falling, these bands of rain are spiralling around that area of low pressure. we start cold and frosty on wednesday. southern and eastern areas likely to stay dry and bright, but in the west, it's clouding over more quickly. it's getting wetter as well. that wetter weather is pushing into that colder air, and we're likely to find some snow for a while, particularly in scotland, especially over the hills. still a lot to play for from wednesday onwards with that low in the atlantic trying to push in this milder air in from the southwest, but there's still that block of colder air in the north. that colder air looks further north, so most of the country should be turning milder later in the week, with the chance of some rain at times. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm karishma vaswani. the headlines: a record low turnout in the first legislative elections in hong kong since china tightened control. we speak to democracy campaigner nathan law. a tough new lockdown in the netherlands, as the new coronavirus variant spreads fast across europe. we have a special report from myanmar on the mass killings of civilians by the military — which seized power in a coup last february. a victory for the hard left candidate in chile's most polarising election ever. and tennis star emma radacanu wins the bbc�*s prestigious sports personality of the year.