thank you very much for your time. great to hear the sound effects. it's bramble. is that right? bramble in the background. that is bramble and she is our star of stage and screen. and it's laura in the other studio in westminster. i and it's justin in lambeth palace. looking very grand. and with bramble. newscast. newscast from the bbc. lie down. can you lie down? that's a good girl. just lie down. and going to disappear off. archbishop, welcome to newscast. well, thank you. welcome to lambeth. well, except we were meant to be welcomed in person and we'd even put in our mulled wine order, but omicron sorted that in our mulled wine order, but omicron saw to that. us, hasn't it? yeah. and who's that with you? that is bramble, who i suspect will disappear quite soon. but is the family... there she goes. she is the abcd. ooh, that smells good. but bramble, i'm going to sound likejohnny morris in a while, but bramble is the abcd, which is the archbishop of canterbury's dog. terrific. and it sounds like quite a handful. oh, she is a handful. she is a cocker spaniel, so she's insatiable when it comes to food, but she's very friendly. and she may well reappear from time to time. does she like christmas dinner, archbishop? - she loves it. she will eat... she prefers other people's christmas dinner. we have caught her on the table before now. well, that is tremendous. well, newscast, i'm happy. to say, is a news programme where everyone's pets - are welcome, so thank you very much indeed for allowing her to be with all of us today, . particularly exciting for me. just to get serious for a bit, the reason we are not all in the same place having mulled wine and christmas pies and patting each other�*s dogs is because of the worries about the omicron variant and people getting pinged and various things like that. archbishop, when people are starting to get a bit scared and particularly a very sensitive time of the year, what do you think your kind of role is? well, ithink it doesn't change much. the church of england's in every community in the country and the main role is for the local churches, which they've been doing, were involved in about 33,000 social projects across the country, and they are about feeding people and caring for people and looking outwards and to everyone, christian, non—christian, no faith, whatever it happens to be. local clergy and all faith communities are intensely careful about caring for people who come to church, so go along to church, wear a mask, having been vaccinated, get your booster if you can, all these sorts of things. does right now, though, . loving your neighbour mean avoiding your neighbour, | when the risk of infection is so great, particularly for the elderly? - should places of worship still be exempt? - i think they should. as i say, over the last 18 months, we have almost no examples of centres of worship as breeding infection. people are immensely careful. apart from anything else, most anglican churches, to be absolutely honest, are large, cold and draughty. but isn't the issue that omicron is way more transmissible than anything we've had in the last 18 months, so actually carol singing and sitting in the pews together might turn out to be absolutely the wrong thing to do and, if we are going to be precautionary and plan for the worst but hope for the best, perhaps carol concerts aren't such a good idea. er, i think, if that was the case, we'd have heard that already from the government. as i say, we are looked at as being a very safe place. one of the things the church does, there is mental health as well as physical health. we've found over the last 18 months those people have come together in worship, suitably separated, sitting no closer than they need to be, with limits on how many people come in and fill the place up. as that has happened, so it has given people joy and hope and faith and confidence to care for those around them. what would you say to anyone who is weighing up the merits or otherwise of going for a vaccine, a booster? we look at some of the boroughs within london, lambeth, for instance, where the figures are, for many people, surprisingly, frighteningly low, in terms of those who have taken up the opportunity of getting a jab. even low in some parts of the nhs. i think i would say what i said earlier in the week in another interview, that getting the vaccination, getting a booster, is, as the queen said in answer to a question from the crowd about a year ago, she said it's not about me. it's one of the ways in which we love our neighbours. this pandemic has had. a really personal impact on so many people. you yourself, we know, i volunteered as a chaplain at st thomas's hospital, a stone's throw from - lambeth palace, during - the worst period of lockdown, when so many people. were losing their lives. what impact did that have on you? - it had the most profound impact on me. it stopped me worrying about myself so much, which is very healthy, so it reminded me it's not about me. it obviously was in the front line, seeing the extraordinary work being done by the nhs, and their capacity for improvisation, invention, sorting things out quickly, it is above all showed me the huge important of the dignity of each human being, regardless of faith. i just think of the number of people who were very near the end of their lives that i prayed with, or parents with children not covid related who were near the end of their life, and that sense of our fragility, but of the hope that people found in prayer, in god, in reaching out was extraordinary. i was expecting to be seen as a bit of a nuisance but we've got to have a chaplain, you know, and we are short so this strange bloke is wondering about trying not to do too much harm. and it was quite the reverse. i just watched our senior chaplain there do the most remarkable work alongside the rest of the nhs. i learned so much. archbishop, are there specific moments that have stayed i with you among those families that you met or particular...? i yeah, there are two very specific. one was with a woman with, who was in critical care with very severe covid, couldn't speak, she was conscious, she could just hold out her hand and we locked eyes while i prayed for her. and i'll go to my own death with the picture of her face in my mind. and the other was an unconscious woman from a muslim tradition, muslim background, whose family had said, please would someone pray with her? and i knelt by her bed and she was unconscious. i held her hand and prayed for her. and there was, i mean, i'm sorry, this will sound slightly metaphysical and mystic, but there was a huge sense of the presence of god. and i learned so much from that about the love of god for every single human being, whoever they are, wherever they are, whatever they are like. and that has a deep impact on the way i view people generally. but those were really two of dozens and dozens of very special moments. of course, you could be there . when peoples families couldn't. if you could just remember what that was like them, . people were alone, i but with hospital staff and you were there to be able to provide that comfort. - it's such... it makes me quite emotional. it's such an overwhelming privilege to be allowed to be there. i'd have swapped places with their family any time. i didn't think i had any right or entitlement, but that was the way it was, and we did the best we could. and i don't know anyone who was working in the chaplaincy, and there were a range of people there who, who wasn't overwhelmed with that sense of privilege. i wonder what it is that you actually say in those moments, those moments of prayer with someone who is perhaps living their final hours. well, you commit them into god's hands. sometimes you anoint them, if they are from, if that's going to be all right with them and their family. you are honest about the tragedy and lament and protest of it. you don'tjust... i don't know if any of you remember postman pat, who i endured for many years...? did not expect that swerve! well, i like to keep you on your toes. postman pat comes up with the most atrocious, not postman pat, the vicar, with... you know, pat sort of appears saying, my dog has been killed and there is mass murder going on in the village, and the vicar says, oh, bless you, pat! you don't get into that. you talk to god with integrity. and protest, and you say this is wrong, this is terrible, here is someone dying alone. come and be with their family, be with them, look on them with love, receive them into your hands. reverend timms, i've just looked him up. on the postman pat wiki, which chris has very suspiciously quick access to. he is the vicar of greendale church and we hear, for the first time on newscast, that his future rise in the church of england... well, we should not be betting on that. let's just say he's not on the preferment list. yeah, he's not getting a bishopric any time soon. seeing as you have made the conversation slightly less emotional, that's given us permission to then go down this road. while you were holding people's hands, even people from another faith, because theyjust wanted somebody of faith to be there at the end, we now know that some of those points there were people having parties, in contravention of the rules. how do you feel when you juxtapose pictures of people grinning with catering in an office that is meant to be in a restricted situation and you were doing that at the same time? first of all, obviously, we must obey the rules. obviously, we must all obey the rules. secondly, there is an investigation going on. i won't prejudge that. but we need to set an example. on a human level, archbishop, there were you, describing so emotionallyjust a few minutes ago being in a hospital, and a matter of, well, less than a mile away from that, in the weeks before christmas last year, that party going on in conservative party headquarters, involving the then london mayoral candidate. ijust wonder, on a human level, how you responded when you saw that picture? on a human level, i... just disappointed, really. i don't... i make so many mistakes myself, i'm not a big one for throwing stones. my favourite story in the bible — one of my favourites — is when someone is dragged out in front ofjesus, a woman caught in adultery, and they say, "should she be stoned?" and jesus just says, "those without sin cast the first stone." and all her accusers go away and he says, "does nobodyjudge you?" and she says, "nobody did." and he says, "well, go away and don't do it again." now, that's jesus. that seems quite a good example, really, particularly in myjob. and i don't really do much onjudging people, but it is... we must obey the rules. we have to depersonalise it. let's get away from that example. and i would say, obey the rules, stick to the rules. but you also said, archbishop, you said yourself that - you make many mistakes. i'm sure you don't make very many mistakes in fact, - but you have been very candid| about the fact that you believe you do make errors. but when mistakes are made, isn't it better for people - to be straight about it, to be honest? i to admit? i don't want to use the word confess to you, it feels - somehow inappropriate, but isn't it better- for the public that we see i prominent leaders in public life... yes. ..being straight about things? yes. i think that, not so much social media, but most people in most places, when someone puts their hand up and says, "look, that was a stupid thing to do and i shouldn't have done that," even today there is a level of forgiveness. over the last few weeks i've apologised for a couple of things i got wrong. and you just have to acknowledge where things have gone wrong and say, "yes, that was wrong." and i noticed the former mayoral candidate immediately stepped down. that seems very honourable. he stepped down from his various posts. that seems to me to be an honourable way of doing it. everybody gets things wrong. there's a difference between deliberate wrongdoing and just, i don't know, negligently overlooking what you should have done. but there's none of us who are really in a position to throw rocks, frankly. but do you think there's been a bit of an absence of taking responsibility and apologising in the public sphere in the last few years? thank you for depersonalising it! yes, i do. i think that goes back a very long way. yes, i think we need to recover that culture, both of kindness and forgiveness. of distinguishing between blame and accountability. and we need much less of a blame culture about this, and more of a lessons learned culture. and when people get things wrong, if they say, "i got that wrong," fine. learn the lessons, move on. what about an honesty culture, and an honesty culture that comes from the top? that is clearly essential. and isn't it wonderful that we have such an extraordinary example at the top... ..of the queen with her complete integrity in every possible way? that's a nifty side swerve, archbishop. it really was. i wasn't quite sure - what you are going to say there! laughter. let's talk about the prime minister and his honesty and his candour. because you've talked about the need, you've accepted that of course we are all human, we all make mistakes, but we can all do a lot to mitigate against those mistakes by being honest when they've been made. does the prime minister need to be more honest? what do you think? the joy of being a journalist is i get to ask the questions. the joy of being an archbishop is i can tell you when i'm not going to! laughter. i'm not going to answer that question. one of the rules... you know, i do wear this funny bit of plastic, and one of the rules for it is that you talk to people before you talk about people. and i have, in this extraordinaryjob, which i am very privileged to have, i get to see all these people from time to time. and it is a pastoral thing, and i'm not going to say what i say in pastoral conversations. that's my job. theresa may did used - to come to lambeth palace, i believe, sometimes. what would you counsel our current leaders, - i suppose? and i know you don't- want to personalise things, but is it an important. principle for politicians that they should tell the truth? | i mean, i think it wasjohn, in the gospel ofjohn, - i think, it says that the truth shall set you free. _ that's whatjesus said. should our politicians follow that principle? j he also said, "i am the truth." so it's another good principle to follow him. yes, it's really complicated, isn't it? because there are bits... you know. you're all very much more experienced in politics than i am. you know as well as i do there are things people can't say. that a lot of political work has to be done behind—the—scenes, because when it is public, it immediately destroys what you're trying to do. but i suppose i would say, you don't always tell the whole truth, in the sense that you don't lie, but you don't talk about everything. but when you speak, you should speak truthfully. and it's very, very rare — instances of national security and so on — where that shouldn't be the case. i think one other thing is, for a very long time, is what you battle with issues of spin and manipulation of news, and, come on, the church can do that with the best of them. but we need to step back from that. one of the things we've learned over the last few years in the church, for instance, on issues of safeguarding child abuse, is stop obfuscating and tell the truth. "we did this, it was wrong, this is what we are going to do to set it right." obviously, at this time of year, we look back on the past, but also we kind of look to next year. because it's notjust christmas, it's new year as well. with what's happening with omicron, with what you have seen of human nature in the rest of the pandemic, are you hopeful for 2022? or a bit trepidatious? i'm always hopeful. at christmas, there is an extraordinary paradox. we look back to a story set at a time when the world was a lot worse than this. and god's answer was to join that world as a baby, the most vulnerable and helpless of all human beings. and 2000 years later, 2.4 billion people will celebrate that ba by�*s birth. and people in the most atrocious places. a lot of my time is spent with the anglican community around the world, which is normally in places of poverty and suffering. i was talking to the archbishop of south sudan the other day, who said casually in passing, "well, half the country is under water at the moment, so that's limiting the impact of the civil war." just think of that sentence. what that implies for suffering. we've got the biggest... you know, there was a wonderful report on the today programme yesterday from afghanistan. just powerful report, about the catastrophic humanitarian situation. i listened to archbishops in places of civil war over the last few days — we have a whatsapp group — places of civil war and persecution. and they look on that baby as giving them hope. so how can i not have hope that that baby brings us eternal life, a future, a hope and purpose, the light of the world in the deepest darkness. i'm full of hope. i'm intrigued by this archbishops' whatsapp group. and is it different categories? like, you've got war—torn areas, you've got kind of wealthy, ok areas. you've got, thinking about breaking away from the church areas? oh, that's a low blow! i'm just thinking of all the issues you've got to deal with. and is there a whatsapp group for each different issue? no doubt there is, but i'm only on the big one. it's like party politics, isn't it? i don't know all the whatsapp groups that are going around. but it's great, it's the most amazing thing, because itjust brings you... you suddenly get a whatsapp from somebody saying, you know, "will you pray for us today in x country?" i won't say the names but there are security reasons for that, personally. "we've got heavy shooting all around the house at the moment." and it kind of... you folk know this much better than i do. it kind of puts it in a very different perspective. you look at situations like afghanistan. so, where is the hope going to come from there? it must come from a generosity of spirit that says, whatever we think about the taliban, we care earlier this year i went on a tour around sandringham, the queen's home in norfolk. oh, did you? and i saw, in the drawing—room, the queen's table, where she sits there doing a jigsaw every christmas. were you envious? and i was veryjealous. i noticed there were two seats there, so presumably her majesty does a jigsaw with a companion. have you ever sat in the queen's companion jigsaw puzzle seat? yes. gasps. whatjigsaw did you do? i can't remember. i'm terrible atjigsaws. what's her strategy? does she do the edges first? you'd have to ask her that at the next interview. there we are. that's pastorally confidential. she is... i mean, the queen is... i was so overwhelmed at being there. it was the first time i'd properly met her. and she was doing a jigsaw! but i knew i mustn't put the last piece in the jigsaw. 0r leave with a piece in your pocket. oh, golly. i think it would be the tower of london. laughter. brilliant, archbishop, thank you so much. on that revelatory note, that's made my christmas. thank you very much. thank you. happy christmas to all three of you. and, laura, happy new year, which will doubtless matter more to you. goodness me, thank you very much for coming on. - a very happy christmas to you. thank you for sharing and being so candid l with us this afternoon. that's worrying. i wish you hadn't said that last bit. take care! thanks a lot. thank you, bye. bye! newscast. newscast from the bbc. hello. thursday brought an east—west split to the uk weather—wise. well, certainly in terms of where we had the blue sky or where we had the grey sky. across parts of eastern scotland and down the eastern side of england, some were treated to a largely sunny day from dawn until dusk, where it was the reverse across some western areas. a view from wales, cloudy from dawn until dusk. it's the cloud that's going to win out for friday and the weekend. high pressure, lots of settled weather to come, but trapped underneath this high pressure, plenty of cloud. now, where there will have been some clear spells overnight — parts of eastern scotland, northeast england — a frost to start friday, but also some mist and fog around, and particularly through parts of yorkshire, the east midlands and east anglia. some dense patches in places, perhaps affecting travel, and some may lingerfor much of the day in a few spots. you get the idea for the forecast, though, for friday with lots of cloud around. the cloud thick enough to produce a bit of drizzle here and there. breezy with it through the channel islands into parts of south—west england, south wales. through here, though, there could be a few sunny spells, as there will be towards parts of scotland and again north—east england. temperatures on a par with thursday, although just tending to go a little bit lower, and that's a trend that continues through the weekend. friday night into saturday morning, a lot of cloud around, some mist and fog. again, the clearest skies in scotland, so this is where we're most likely to get a frost as the weekend begins, but there could be a few pockets, too, towards north—east england. with that area of high pressure i showed you earlier, a lot of settled weather over the weekend. a lot of cloud, it'll be mainly dry and again temperatures just starting to edge down a few degrees over the weekend. and still quite breezy on saturday through the english channel, channel islands, far south—west of england. could be a few brighter breaks here as there may be towards the far west of wales, more particularly into scotland. elsewhere, a good deal of cloud, fewer temperatures in double figures at this stage, it's mid to high single figures. and plenty of cloud around again on sunday, could be drizzly in a few spots, but there's also a chance of seeing one or two brighter breaks here and there. now, for the most part, temperatures in single figures. it will brighten up into next week, but the trend is for things to turn even colder as we go through the rest of the week in the lead—up to christmas. apart from that, what exactly is on our way christmas weather—wise, remains to be seen. hello, you're watching bbc news. very good to have your company. i'm rich preston — our top stories: as governments around the globe brace for the omicron effect, britain sets a record for new covid infections for the second day in a row. will it be a difficult night for borisjohnson? votes are being counted in a by—election that could put more pressure on the prime minister. counting the cost of last year's wildfires in south america. as many as 17 million animals lost their lives. and — omicron causes trouble in the world of sport — with football and cricket matches postponed around the world.