giants, is there a risk that the britishness of the tv shows made in the uk is being diluted? there are lots of questions to work through. let's meet the guests who are going to help me with them. beginning with sarah doole, chief executive of the red production company. it's behind last tango in halifax, it's a sin and many other successes. sarah, great to have you on the media show. what have you got planned next? well, we've been really busy and production this year. we've got a big show for it netflix coming out the beginning of next year. another show that we just filmed for itv. no return, which interestingly we've had to recreate a 5—star resort in bolton. laughter. sounds like we could spend the whole edition just talking about that. yes, yes. and we're about to start a huge show for amazon based on a neil gaiman novel, so we're really busy. lots of stuff in the pipeline. so it's a really exciting time, actually. we will unpack more the way the streamers have had on the way that you do business with. let's bring in tony wood, chief executive at buccaneer media. the man who created the only way is essex. tony, we talk about britishness, we're certain to talk about drama. i just wonder if you consider the only way is essex to be a drama series. um, maybe, maybe. i think what's certainly true is that all of my training is in drama. i was the only person on that team who had no idea, i had no idea how to make a reality show. so consequently, i kind of pulled as much of it into my skillset as possible. in my head, it was drama and i spent all of that time referring to it as a reality drama, so, maybe. very interesting. a man who knows lots about drama as well, sir phil redman. he was knighted last year a legendary figure in tv having created grange hill, hollyoaks and brookside. phil, i wonder what britishness means to you in the context of making tv. i think basically it's - making tv that chimes with the contemporary issues running through the country. at the moment there'sl a massive theme called levelling up and l being left behind. i think that's the kind of thing that we need to think about. we're are the dramas actually tackling that| on a regular basis? it's quite interesting, - this debate because we almost need to go back to the future is when i came into - the television in the 705 - and '805, we had an extremely strong sense - of britishness on tv. and that's because we had a strong, regional identity| and we had a federated itv, so people were making - programmes— within their region and being fed by people in the region. they were looking at issues that were affecting britain i at that time. over the years, for whatever i reasons, and i can't understand all, we've allowed that to fall away. i everything is drifting i back towards london. you say that with regret in your voice. through the half hour, i'm interested to explore what you think should be done to reverse that trend. first of all, let's explain why we're asking this question with the help of chris curtis, who is the editor of broadcast, which is the main resource for the tv industry. chris, we're talking about britishness because back in september the government started talking about it explicitly with reference to tv. just bring us up—to—date on that. yeah, there's a wider review going on a public service broadcasting in the uk. that's a very broad topic and it incorporates a very important feature, not least the potential privatisation of channel four. that's not the key issue in the britishness debate but in a setting, public service broadcasting, the government is assessing the job the bbc is doing in reflecting the whole of the uk. the job channel four is doing in reflecting the whole of the uk, and the government has indicated, slightly bizarrely i would argue, that it is minded to kind of protect britishness, to legislate that they deliver a certain quota of british content. when in fact i think all psbs is would say that's precisely what 95% of their content already is. but nonetheless, the public service broadcasters do seem to be acting with more urgency to move some of the resources outside of london. yes, i think the bbc is very conscious of trying to make sure that licence fee—payers in whatever part of the uk feel ownership of the corporation, feel kinship with the corporation, and one of the ways they can do that is by making shows around the country, but also having creative decisions being made outside of london where the taste makers, the commissioners, might see the world through a slightly different perspective. because they are not all sat in a house sipping soy lattes. and channel 4 is on the same page. they've spent the last 18 months moving hundreds and hundreds ofjobs outside of london, creating important hubs. we are yet, if truth be told, to see the impact of that on screen. it'll be an interesting test over the coming, the next 12 months, i would say to the extent to what channel 4 can point to in terms of output that speaks to its new creative perspectives outside of london. we will get into how those production hubs influence the kind of programmes that are made in a minute. let's go one step back and look at the creation of those hubs in the first place. phil redman, if you were trying to create a hub or were looking to expand an existing hub outseide of london, based on your experiences over several decades in the industry, what do you think needs to be done to give that the best chance? the fair thing to do is go to the creative centre of the universe which is liverpool, but that's off the point. really what you need to do is what channel 4 did with us at brookside. you'd need to have a long vision and you need to have a strong commitment to stay with it. these things don't just happen overnight. the idea that the bbc will justify why they moved outside, with putting outside london, it's more than that. you can't do it by setting three or four programmes away from the capital. you need to think about a two, three—year programme of sustained commitment to commissioning and output that actually starts to reflect issues and stories that are happening. that are not actually the standard drama fare. i think back, grange hill started in 1978. and it was about comprehensive school. extremely common now. people talk about the comp and don't even think about it but back in '78, this was quite a new idea in education. it was happening across the north and really outside the capital. and so the kids coming through that kind of education system, it was reflecting about what was changing in britain. when brookside started, it was talked about post—industrial britain, and the shift away from the manufacturing days. and through the whole thing of the thatcher years. again, that was something that was happening outside the capital and this is affecting the rest of the country. it was in the north—east, it was in the south but that was a big story. to me that is what the definition of britishness is. it's about making dramas that are plugging into exactly what exactly is changing our society. and have production hubs help to plug into what's happening in our society across the country? you talked about the length of commission and how that allows operations to commit long—term. sarah paulfrom red production company, i wonder if it's also about reaching a critical mass of businesses around one city, a certain number of production companies, a certain level of skills across the piece. would that be you experience in manchester? i think anybody today in the uk running a drama—indie it's the toughest business to be in. for starters, you need at least two shows in production to even sustain your overheads. so if you get to keep any sort of professional expertise in terms of legal, accounting, all the things you need to be a business and be a drama. i agree with sir phil. if there was a way that we knew just a little bit of what our future was for the next three years, that would help a lot of the indies, notjust in the north but around the uk and out of london. a lot of indies are at the moment living hand to mouth on development money, not even production money. and that's a sorry state of affairs when we've got such great... to me, britishness it's not about, weirdly, the content, i think it's about the skills we have here in the uk. i think we have world—beating actors, world—beating writers, directors and we know how to do the process of making great drama. and just interestingly, much of that process knowledge has come from the big soaps that have always been based out of london. you're guaranteed training or skill expertise in production because you got corry, emerdale, hollyoaks and you've got big long—running shows that people can learn their skills on and then transfer onto other programmes. can ijust throw something else into that on the skills thing? again, once you reach a critical mass on production, you're right, you need to retain it and all that level of disciplines across the industries, also what you do is raise the skill level within the community. and you also raise the skill level in understanding how technology works. you become more innovative with technology, more creative with technology. one thing that astonishes me, having started back in the business in 19805 on the cusp of new technology, ijust do not understand the inflation of in the industry. by now with automated technology, with the ai driving software, the cost of production should actually be quite, really easily managed. and that's a problem again because all the time, you haven't got this critical mass, when netflix and amazon are coming in all the time. that's what they doing, what we used to call starting end production. we're going to talk about the issue of price inflation in a moment. but tony wood, i want to go back to the practicalities of establishing these production hubs. sarah has already given us a list of things that she would want. when you look at a potential location to work in, what are the things that you need and what support do you want, eitherfrom national or regional government for that to be in place? well, to start with, - nine times out of ten we look for something that's . appropriate to the idea and often the ideas - that we generate particular locations, so we tend to go there. - i think the second factor i for us is, is there any soft money, is there any government or local film agency money that. could support a budget? and then, of course, you're actually right, from there onwards you need the skill set in the crew. - we've recently finished . a show in scotland where we were working in - glasgow and edinburgh. and because it was straight after whichever lockdown . it was at that point, the whole marketplace was flooded. - and it was flooded - with global productions, massive streaming productions. and to phil's point, - making the point in a slightly different way, the inflation, the crew rate inflation, - location rates, location - inflation meant that our show, it was almost impossible to produce it. _ so i think there's double—edged sword here as well, _ which is because we've been so successful in the creation| of our incentives, _ particularly the high—end film and television tax incentive. it's meant that we are flooded with other programming - from elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere that - take our crews. so production base as it got to be what they have just i described and that you have to keep growing skills- with in it. and that takes years. so that's what you want from a production base. you've all made reference to the streamers several times already. chris curtis from broadcast, let me bring you in here. can you help us understand the scale and the impact amazon and netflix in particular have had on the uk industry? sure. i mean, from a uk prc point of view, you have to say that inward investment is great news. and actually from a uk independent production community perspective, though it brings with it headaches — the guys have just been talking about — it's fantastic news. because these guys have got budgets that far exceed many of the domestic players and that means that the creative ambitions that their shows have have no limits. the inflation that everyone�*s talked about, i mean, anecdotally, drama producers talk about anything from 7% to about 30% of additional cost at the moment. now, covid costs have played into that a little bit so you got the extra cost particularly of the last 18 months of getting people tested in the various different protocols that everyone has had to observe, coupled with the scarcity of top—level talent but, yeah, ten to 13%. but it is a by—product of the excellence in the sector and it's a short to medium—term headache — it's the only thing producers want to talk to me about at the moment. crosstalk. can ijust butt in there? of course you can! i would just like to tell everybody how much drama costs to make — a high—end drama. it's anything between 1.5 million and 3 billion an hour. what you think, tony? that's a pretty good per hour of television. yeah, absolutely. when we are talking about this idea of britishness, when we go to a british broadcaster — any of the terrestrials — they will only give us 30% to 40% of the budget. so then it's down to the individual producers to go out in the open marketplace — to go to america, france, spain — and try and get partners on board for sometimes up to 60% of the budget. so in one way, we all want to be the very best of british but we have to partner with people outside britain to get those shows made. and chris, if i could join the throng and ask you non—stop about the streamers. for people listening, just give us an idea of some of the big shows they've made in the uk recently. well, the big one that's yet to come that is going - to amplify everything to the power of ten l is when amazon brings lord of the rings to the uk. - but even things which don't necessarily feel that britishj or are kind of created l at the stakes — i mean, bridgerton was shot in western england i and was actually a gang i busters success for netflix with lots of british crew and lots of british - acting talent but kind of an american production. tony, if i could ask you about your new drama crime. that's set in scotland. to what degree did the location influence the nature of the story, the way you made it, the entire product? well, it's an irvine welsh piece, so everything was really influenced by being from the writer of trainspotting. so it's about as scottish as it could possibly be, really. so i think we used the location in order to add to the tone of it, as well as the kind of literal physicality of it. but i think what's interesting about that is a point — and just listening to all the stuff about britishness — i think that production hubs are quite clearly a good thing — there's no doubt about that — but equally, we've got to look at voice, i think. and i think going to the regions — going to scotland, going to the nations — we went up there with irving, it became very clear that this show was meaningful to all of our cast and crew and one of the ways that we combated the inflation was by waving irving around and introducing irving to people. did he like being waved around? yeah, he loved being waved around — it-s — of his favourite things. but it meant we could cut deals. and then, the other point that i found when i was up there for however many months it was was that there is an entire constituency there with stories to tell that we're not necessarily tapping into, ithink. and i think that we need to understand the regional voice, because stories come from constituencies, and that is britishness. and i can see and know that the others again will want tojump in. just before you do phil, as we've been talking about tony's new drama. let's see a bit of it. they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. not in my mind. brittany hamel, 13. vanished. vanished into thin air. every day it's literally - a matter of life—and—death. tears my soul apart. nobody presents as a i monster that they are. promise me you'll find her. promise me! monsters are around every corner and under every bed. that's just a little bit of the new drama series crime. phil, you were wanting to come in. yes, i think tony's point of voice is really important. because in the heyday of the soaps, that's exactly what they did. they were all based across the country and they were bringing in a different view and a different accent to the issues of the day. same with grange hill — that started a big controversy around it because the children were speaking with dreadful working—class accents. but the other thing i wanted to comment was there is a misnomer in this debate all the time about the fact that netflix and amazon are challenging television. they're challenging film. when you're looking at the campaigns, at the point about the lord of the rings, it's a cinematic project. it's just that the streamers can now make it as long and as big as they actually want it. so again, going back to the thing about soaps and britishness and reflecting the voices and the concerns of a nation, in terms of budget, the soaps are always traditionally 25%, 30% of the costs of prime time drama. so the connection between cost of production and quality and content and britishness, it doesn't co—relate. so when we talk about britishness, we can come back and make great programmes about britishness, great scripts, great writers and everything, but you don't have to enter that minefield of trying to compete with netflix or amazon about it. i guess the question is, sarah, as we listen to the points of sir phil redmond, do you believe that britishness needs to be protected, there need to be things in order to help british tv remain distinct? look, i don't completely agree with the government prescribing what stories we can and can't tell. i mean, the greatjoy of being british is free speech, hearing different voices. i mean, that would rule out things like normal people, which was the big success of lockdown, we wouldn't have seen war and peace on the bbc. you can name hundreds and hundreds of programmes... but the governments not suggesting it should be made, but the governments not suggesting it should not be made, it's just wants to make sure that stories rooted in the uk are told in tv. ijust think it's a little bit of a slippery slope to sort of nationalistic entrapment because we have to let the creatives tell the stories they want to tell — that's ourjob as producers — and surely, that's the imagination of storytelling, isn't it? you can put it anywhere, any time, in any space. chris curtis from broadcast, if you look at the performance of itv recently, doing very well in its last figures, it would suggest that a commercial operation like itv can make lots of programmes, many of them rooted in british stories, and make a good profit, given the current situation. yeah, i mean, look, ithink the single most important thing the government can do to protect british programming is ensure a healthy, robust future for public service broadcasting in the uk. if it creates the market circumstances, if is sorts of prominence of the psbs can make sure that their programmes are easily found as more more and more people are watching through apple or amazon or other programmes, if it gives the bbc a licence fee — look, were not naive, we don't think they will suddenly get a huge surge — if they can avoid cutting the legs of the bbc with some sort of crippling licence fee settlement and if you can find an outcome for channel 4 that doesn't turn channel 4 intojust another broadcaster — which is the threat, the danger through privatisation — then it will have created the circumstances in which we can have a healthy product service sector for the next, ten to 20 years. those psbs inevitably and wilfully produce fantastic british—made content of precisely the kind that we've been talking about the last half—hour. with the soaps front and centre among it. that's quite a long list of ifs. we'll have to see if the government manages to do that. briefly, as we head towards the end of the programme, phil redman first, do you think the government should intervene in some way to protect her support britishness and tv? i think they should. we need to protect the bbc. we need to move into the 21st century so we need to make sure it's sustained, it makes programmes for the british taxpayers who fund it. make it a levy on their programme bills instead of a tax. and actually make channel 4 into bbc and stills set up that advertising and advertising subsidises the bbc. that is the way to protect the whole thing. tony? well, i certainly agree that the psbs need protecting. selfishly and personally, i wouldn't mind a little bit more being put into the indies or maybe the more practical — more practical way of looking at that is that the creative communities may need a little more sustaining because in the last 20 years with itv consolidating london and various other moves, the ride of the inaudible, it's become very difficult. by which you mean what? what support that you would like to see offered? well, it's a flippant comment but if i'm gonna be honest, but the truth of the matter is, as i said, stories come from constituencies and voice comes from constituencies. and a national character is created by those various voices. so i think that the work that the film agencies do, the work that the regional film, screen bodies do is excellent. perhaps there should be more. on that note, we will have to leave it. many thanks to all of our guests. sarah doyle, chief executive of red production company, tony wood, chief executive of buccaneer media, sir phil redman, creative of grange hill, hollyoaks and brookside. and chris curtis, the editor of broadcast. we will be back next week at the usual time. from now for me and all of the bbc media show team, thanks for watching and bye—bye. hello. well, tuesday promises to be a dry day across most of the uk. it's going to be cloudy and mild once again. and, in fact, not much change expected for the next few days. if anything, the temperatures could rise even further. so why is it so mild? well, on the satellite picture, you'll see this big weather front here. this is very much where the jet stream is. thejet stream is pushing along the weather fronts, but it's also separating the mild air to the south, which has engulfed the uk, and indeed much of europe, and is keeping the cold air at bay. so we are to the south of the jet stream in that milder air. but scotland is a little closer to the weather fronts in the north atlantic, so that does mean some of that rain grazing the western isles through the course of the early hours. elsewhere, it'll be dry. and where the skies will have cleared, perhaps 11—5 celsius at dawn, so a little on the nippy side, but generally mild. now, that weather front does move into scotland, northern ireland, perhaps the lake district and the north of wales, but the rain will be light and fleeting and will quickly fizzle away. east and south, it's going to be dry. perhaps a bit of brightness, too. and the same pattern continues into wednesday. so high pressure in the south with that mild air coming in, weather fronts in the north of the atlantic. and again, they are bringing this time some showers to parts of scotland, whereas in the south, in fact central, southern areas of the uk, should be a fine day — in fact, a very bright day, particularly eastern areas and along the south coast. temperatures a little fresher on wednesday, 10—12 celsius, but then they rise again as we head into thursday. now, around this high pressure, we'll run along a current of mild air on thursday. and as it engulfs the uk, the temperatures could actually rise even further with a bit of sunshine. so, yes, a bit of cloud and rain here in the northwest of scotland, but widely, i think, the mid—teens. and look at that — 16 in aberdeen. wouldn't be surprised if it gets up to 17 — 17 this time in november — extraordinarily mild for eastern parts of scotland. shouldn't last for too long, perhaps into friday. again, friday could well be another very mild day, with the mid—teens across the country, but i think as we head into the weekend, it's going to turn a lot, a lot cooler. so a very mild week, particularly mild towards the end of the week, and i think the weekend and beyond is going to turn quite a bit colder. bye— bye. welcome to bbc news. i'm david eades. our top stories: with tensions on trade, taiwan and climate change, the us and chinese presidents begin their most extensive talks since january. the uk raises its terror threat level after an explosion in liverpool. police say they believe the man killed in the blast made the device himself. the eu steps up sanctions once more over the migrant crisis at the belarusian border. hundreds are trapped in freezing conditions. these people want a better life. they are desperate to get to the european union, which is right here. also, reckless and irresponsible: the us hits out at russia over a missile test that it says endangered the crew of the international space station.

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