hello i'm ross atkins. welcome to this week's addition of the media show. and we're going to talk about british tv and britishness. as you may be aware, it's boom time for the uk tv industry. not least because of the arrival of amazon and netflix. but with these streaming giants, is there a risk that the britishness of the tv shows made in the uk is being diluted? there are lots of questions to work through. let's meet the guests who are going to help me with them. beginning with sarah doole, chief executive of the red production company. it's behind last tango in halifax, it's a sin and many other successes. sarah, great to have you on the media show. what have you got plan next? well, we've been really busy and production this year. we've got a big show for it netflix coming out the beginning of next year. another show that we just filmed for itv. which interestingly we've had to recreate a 5—star resort in bolton. sounds like we could spend the whole edition just talking about that. yes, yes. and we've also just about to start a huge show for amazon based on a neil game novel. so were really busy. lots of stuff in the pipeline. so it's a really exciting time, actually. we will unpack more the streamers have had on the way that you do business with a list bring in tony would chief executive at buccaneer media. the man who created the only way is essex. tony, we talk about britishness, were certain to talk about drama. i just wonder if you consider the only way is essex to be a drama series may be. maybe, i think what certainly— may be. maybe, i think what certainly true is that all of my training is in drama. i was the_ my training is in drama. i was the only— my training is in drama. i was the only person on that team who— the only person on that team who had _ the only person on that team who had no idea, no idea how to make _ who had no idea, no idea how to make a — who had no idea, no idea how to make a reality show. so consequently, i kind of pulled as much— consequently, i kind of pulled as much of it into my score set as much of it into my score set as possible. in my head it was drama — as possible. in my head it was drama and _ as possible. in my head it was drama and i spent all of that time — drama and i spent all of that time referring to it as a reality— time referring to it as a reality drama so. so time referring to it as a reality drama so. so may be. very interesting. _ reality drama so. so may be. very interesting. a _ reality drama so. so may be. very interesting. a man - reality drama so. so may be. very interesting. a man who| very interesting. a man who knows lots about drama as well. night is last year a legendary figure in tv having created a ranger, hollyoaks and parkside. phil, i wonder what britishness means to you in the context of making tv. i means to you in the context of making tv-_ making tv. i think basically it's making _ making tv. i think basically it's making tv _ making tv. i think basically it's making tv that - making tv. i think basically it's making tv that chimes | making tv. i think basically - it's making tv that chimes with the condition— it's making tv that chimes with the condition contemporary- the condition contemporary issues _ the condition contemporary issues with— the condition contemporary issues with the _ the condition contemporary issues with the country- the condition contemporary issues with the country forl the condition contemporary. issues with the country for the at the — issues with the country for the at the moment _ issues with the country for the at the moment there - issues with the country for the at the moment there is - issues with the country for the at the moment there is a - at the moment there is a massive _ at the moment there is a massive theme - at the moment there is a massive theme called . at the moment there is a - massive theme called levelling up massive theme called levelling up and — massive theme called levelling up and being _ massive theme called levelling up and being left— massive theme called levelling up and being left behind. - massive theme called levelling up and being left behind. i- up and being left behind. i think— up and being left behind. i think that's _ up and being left behind. i think that's the _ up and being left behind. i think that's the kind - up and being left behind. i think that's the kind of- up and being left behind. i. think that's the kind of thing that— think that's the kind of thing that the _ think that's the kind of thing that the drivers _ think that's the kind of thing that the drivers are - think that's the kind of thing that the drivers are actuallyl that the drivers are actually tackling _ that the drivers are actually tackling that _ that the drivers are actually tackling that on _ that the drivers are actually tackling that on a _ that the drivers are actually tackling that on a regular. tackling that on a regular basis _ tackling that on a regular basis it's— tackling that on a regular basis. it's quite - tackling that on a regular. basis. it's quite interesting, this— basis. it's quite interesting, this debate _ basis. it's quite interesting, this debate because - basis. it's quite interesting, this debate because we - basis. it's quite interesting, i this debate because we almost need _ this debate because we almost need to— this debate because we almost need to go— this debate because we almost need to go back— this debate because we almost need to go back to _ this debate because we almost need to go back to the - this debate because we almost need to go back to the future l need to go back to the future is when — need to go back to the future is when i _ need to go back to the future is when i came _ need to go back to the future is when i came into - need to go back to the future is when i came into the - is when i came into the television _ is when i came into the television in _ is when i came into the television in the - is when i came into the television in the 70s i is when i came into the i television in the 70s and is when i came into the - television in the 70s and 80s, we had — television in the 70s and 80s, we had an— television in the 70s and 80s, we had an extremely- television in the 70s and 80s, we had an extremely strong . we had an extremely strong sense — we had an extremely strong sense of— we had an extremely strong sense of britishness - we had an extremely strong sense of britishness on - we had an extremely strong sense of britishness on tv. | we had an extremely strong - sense of britishness on tv. and that's— sense of britishness on tv. and that's because _ sense of britishness on tv. and that's because we _ sense of britishness on tv. and that's because we had - sense of britishness on tv. and that's because we had a - sense of britishness on tv. andj that's because we had a strong, regional— that's because we had a strong, regional identity— that's because we had a strong, regional identity with _ that's because we had a strong, regional identity with itv - that's because we had a strong, regional identity with itv and i regional identity with itv and people — regional identity with itv and pebble were _ regional identity with itv and people were making - regional identity with itv and - people were making programmes within— people were making programmes within their— people were making programmes within their region _ people were making programmes within their region and _ people were making programmes within their region and being - within their region and being fed by— within their region and being fed by pebble _ within their region and being fed by pebble ih _ within their region and being fed by people in the - within their region and being fed by people in the region. i fed by people in the region. they— fed by people in the region. they were _ fed by people in the region. they were looking - fed by people in the region. they were looking at - fed by people in the region. they were looking at issues| they were looking at issues that — they were looking at issues that were _ they were looking at issues that were affecting - they were looking at issues that were affecting britain i they were looking at issuesl that were affecting britain at that were affecting britain at that time _ that were affecting britain at that time. over— that were affecting britain at that time. over the - that were affecting britain at that time. over the years . that were affecting britain atj that time. over the years for whatever— that time. over the years for whatever reasons _ that time. over the years for whatever reasons and - that time. over the years for whatever reasons and i - that time. over the years for whatever reasons and i can l whatever reasons and i can understand _ whatever reasons and i can understand at _ whatever reasons and i can understand at all, - whatever reasons and i can understand at all, we've i whatever reasons and i can i understand at all, we've allow that to — understand at all, we've allow that to fatt— understand at all, we've allow that to fall away. _ understand at all, we've allow that to fall away. everything l that to fall away. everything is drifting _ that to fall away. everything is drifting back— that to fall away. everything is drifting back towards - is drifting back towards london _ is drifting back towards london-— is drifting back towards london. ., ., london. you say that with re . ret london. you say that with regret in _ london. you say that with regret in your _ london. you say that with regret in your voice. - london. you say that with i regret in your voice. through the half hour i am interested to explore what you think should be done to reverse that trend. first of all, let's explain what were asking this question with the help of chris curtis who is the editor of broadcast which is the main resource for the tv industry chris, were talking about britishness because back in september of the government started talking about it explicitly with reference to tv. just bring us up—to—date on that. tv. just bring us up-to-date on that. . �* , ., that. yeah, there's a wider review going _ that. yeah, there's a wider review going on _ that. yeah, there's a wider review going on a - that. yeah, there's a wider review going on a public i review going on a public service broadcasting in the uk. that's a very broad topic and it incorporates a very important feature not least the pretty privatisation of general for. that's not the key issue in the britishness debate but in the britishness debate but in a setting, public service broadcasting the government is assessing the job at the bbc is doing in reflecting the whole of the uk. thejob deck doing in reflecting the whole of the uk. the job deck channel 4 is doing in the whole of the uk and the government has indicated slightly bizarrely, i would argue that it is minded to kind of protect britishness, to kind of protect britishness, to legislate that they deliver a certain quota of british content. when in fact i think all psp is would say that's precisely what 95% of their content already is. but nonetheless _ content already is. but nonetheless the - content already is. but nonetheless the public service broadcasters do seem to be acting with more urgency to move some of the resources outside of london.— move some of the resources outside of london. yes, i think the bbc is _ outside of london. yes, i think the bbc is very _ outside of london. yes, i think the bbc is very conscious - outside of london. yes, i think the bbc is very conscious of. the bbc is very conscious of trying to make sure that licence fee payers in whatever part of the uk feel ownership of the corporation, civil court to back kinship with the corporation. and one of the ways they can do that is by making shows around the country at also having creative decisions being made outside of london where the taste makers, the commissioners might see the world through a slightly different perspective. because they are not all sat in a shortage house sipping soy lattes. and channel four is on the same page. they spent the last 18 months moving hundreds and hundreds ofjobs outside of london, creating important hubs. we are yet if truth be told, to see the impact of that on screen. but be interesting test over the coming, the next 12 months, i would say to the extent to what can general 4.2 towards its output that speaks towards its output that speaks to its new creative perspectives outside of london. we will get into how those production hubs influence a kind of programmes that are made in a minute. let's go one step back and look at the creation of those hubs in the first place. phil redman, if you were trying to create a horrible will look into and expand an existing have a set of london, based on your experiences over several decades in the industry, what do you think needs to be done to give that the best chance? the fair thing to do in the creative _ the fair thing to do in the creative universe of which is liverpool— creative universe of which is liverpool that's off the point. reattv— liverpool that's off the point. really what you need to do is what — really what you need to do is what channel 4 did with us at brookside. you'd need to have a tong _ brookside. you'd need to have a tong vision— brookside. you'd need to have a long vision and you need to have — long vision and you need to have a _ long vision and you need to have a strong commitment to stay— have a strong commitment to stay with— have a strong commitment to stay with it. these things don't _ stay with it. these things don'tjust happen stay with it. these things don't just happen overnight. the — don't just happen overnight. the idea _ don't just happen overnight. the idea that this isjust tatked _ the idea that this isjust talked about by the bbc and justify— talked about by the bbc and justify why they moved up side, generat— justify why they moved up side, general organ to start with putting _ general organ to start with putting outside london, it's more — putting outside london, it's more than that. you can't do it by setting _ more than that. you can't do it by setting three or four programmes away from the capitat _ programmes away from the capital. you need to think about— capital. you need to think about eight two, three year programme of sustained commitment to commissioning and output _ commitment to commissioning and output that actually starts to reflect — output that actually starts to reflect issues and stories that are happening. not actually the standard — are happening. not actually the standard drama fair. if you think— standard drama fair. if you think back, i think back, when 78 and — think back, i think back, when 78 and it — think back, i think back, when 78 and it was about comprehensive score. extremely common— comprehensive score. extremely common now. great chill, people talk common now. great chill, people tatk about— common now. great chill, people talk about and don't even think about— talk about and don't even think about it — talk about and don't even think about it but back in 78 this was — about it but back in 78 this was quite a new idea in education. it was happening across— education. it was happening across the north and really outside _ across the north and really outside the capital. and so the kids coming through that kind of education system, it was reflecting about what was changing in britain. when brookside started it was talked about— brookside started it was talked about postindustrial britain. and — about postindustrial britain. and the _ about postindustrial britain. and the shift away from the manufacturing days. and through the whole — manufacturing days. and through the whole thing of the thatcher years — the whole thing of the thatcher years. again, that was something that was happening outside — something that was happening outside the capital and affecting the rest of the country. it was people in the northeast, it was in the south but that— northeast, it was in the south but that was a big story. back to me — but that was a big story. back to me is — but that was a big story. back to me is what the definition of britishness is. it's about making _ britishness is. it's about making dramas that are plugging into exactly what the change in our society. into exactly what the change in our society-— our society. and have production _ our society. and have production hubs - our society. and have production hubs help| our society. and have l production hubs help to our society. and have - production hubs help to plug into what's happening in our society across the country? you talked about the length of commission and how that allows operations to commit long—term. sarah paulfrom red production company, i wonder if it's also about reaching a critical mass of businesses around one city, a certain number of production companies, a certain level of skills across the piece. would that be you experience at manchester? i that be you experience at manchester?— that be you experience at manchester? i think anybody today and — manchester? i think anybody today and the _ manchester? i think anybody today and the uk _ manchester? i think anybody today and the uk running - manchester? i think anybody today and the uk running a l today and the uk running a drama indy is the toughest business to bn. for starters you need at least two shows in production to even sustain your overhead. so if you get to keep any sort of professional expertise in terms of legal, accounting all the things you need to a, be a business and be be about drama. i agree with sir phil. if there was a way that we knewjust sir phil. if there was a way that we knew just a little sir phil. if there was a way that we knewjust a little bit of what our future was for the next three years, that would help a lot of the indies, not just in the north but around the uk and out of london. a lot of indies are at the moment living hand to mouth on development money, not even production money. and that's a sorry state of affairs when we've got such great... to me britishness is not about weirdly the content, i think it's about the skills we have here in the uk. i think we have world beating actors, world beating writers, directors and we know how to do the process of making great drama. and just interestingly, much of that process knowledge has come from the big soaps that have always been based out of london. you're guaranteed training or skill expertise in production because you got hollyoaks and you've got big long running shows that people can learn their skills on and then transfer onto other programmes. can ijust transfer onto other programmes. can i just throw something else can ijust throw something else into that — can ijust throw something else into that on the skills thing? again — into that on the skills thing? again once you reach a critical mass — again once you reach a critical mass on — again once you reach a critical mass on production, you need to retain— mass on production, you need to retain and — mass on production, you need to retain and all that level of disciplines across the industries, also what you do is raise _ industries, also what you do is raise the — industries, also what you do is raise the skill level within the — raise the skill level within the community. and you also raise — the community. and you also raise the _ the community. and you also raise the skill level in understanding how technology works — understanding how technology works. you become more innovative with technology, more — innovative with technology, more creative with channels. one — more creative with channels. one thing, wanting really astonishes me having started back— astonishes me having started back in— astonishes me having started back in the business in 1980s on the — back in the business in 1980s on the cusp of new technology, i on the cusp of new technology, hust— on the cusp of new technology, ijust do— on the cusp of new technology, ijust do not understand the inflation _ ijust do not understand the inflation is got in the industry. by now with automated technology, with the ai driving software, the cost of production should actually be quite. — production should actually be quite, really easily managed and that's a problem again because _ and that's a problem again because all the time, i've got this critical mass, netflix and amazon— this critical mass, netflix and amazon are coming in all the time, — amazon are coming in all the time, that's what they doing we used _ time, that's what they doing we used to— time, that's what they doing we used to call it starting and production. used to call it starting and production-— used to call it starting and production. used to call it starting and roduction. ~ ., ., ., ,, production. where going to talk about the issue _ production. where going to talk about the issue of _ production. where going to talk about the issue of price - about the issue of price inflation in a moment. but tony would, i want to go back to the practicalities of establishing these production hubs. sarah doyle's already given us a list of things that she would want. when you look at a potential location to work in, what are the things that you need and what support do you want either from national or regional government for that to be in place? government for that to be in lace? ~ ., government for that to be in lace? . ., , ., place? well, to start with nine times out _ place? well, to start with nine times out of— place? well, to start with nine times out of ten _ place? well, to start with nine times out of ten we _ place? well, to start with nine times out of ten we look- place? well, to start with nine times out of ten we look for i times out of ten we look for something _ times out of ten we look for something that's _ times out of ten we look forl something that's appropriate times out of ten we look for- something that's appropriate to the idea — something that's appropriate to the idea and _ something that's appropriate to the idea and often— something that's appropriate to the idea and often the - something that's appropriate to the idea and often the idea i something that's appropriate to the idea and often the idea is i the idea and often the idea is that— the idea and often the idea is that we — the idea and often the idea is that we generate _ the idea and often the idea is that we generate particular. that we generate particular locations, _ that we generate particular locations, so— that we generate particular locations, so we _ that we generate particular locations, so we tend i that we generate particular locations, so we tend to i that we generate particularj locations, so we tend to go there _ locations, so we tend to go there i_ locations, so we tend to go there. ithink— locations, so we tend to go there. i think the _ locations, so we tend to go there. i think the second i there. i think the second factor— there. i think the second factor for— there. i think the second factor for us _ there. i think the second factor for us is _ there. i think the second factor for us is is - there. i think the second factor for us is is there . there. i think the second l factor for us is is there any soft— factor for us is is there any soft money, _ factor for us is is there any soft money, is— factor for us is is there any soft money, is there - factor for us is is there any soft money, is there any . soft money, is there any government— soft money, is there any government or- soft money, is there any government or local- soft money, is there any government or local film soft money, is there any - government or local film agency money— government or local film agency money that— government or local film agency money that could _ government or local film agency money that could support - government or local film agency money that could support a i money that could support a budget? _ money that could support a budget? and _ money that could support a budget? and then- money that could support a budget? and then of- money that could support a| budget? and then of course you're — budget? and then of course you're actually— budget? and then of course you're actually right, - budget? and then of course you're actually right, from i you're actually right, from there _ you're actually right, from there onwards _ you're actually right, from there onwards you - you're actually right, from there onwards you need i you're actually right, from i there onwards you need the skitt— there onwards you need the skill set _ there onwards you need the skill set in _ there onwards you need the skill set in the _ there onwards you need the skill set in the crew. - there onwards you need the skill set in the crew. we'vei skill set in the crew. we've recentty _ skill set in the crew. we've recently finished _ skill set in the crew. we've recently finished a - skill set in the crew. we've recently finished a show i skill set in the crew. we've recently finished a show in| recently finished a show in scotland _ recently finished a show in scotland where _ recently finished a show in scotland where we - recently finished a show in scotland where we were i recently finished a show in - scotland where we were working in gtasgow — scotland where we were working in gtasgow and _ scotland where we were working in glasgow and edinburgh - scotland where we were working in glasgow and edinburgh and i in glasgow and edinburgh and because — in glasgow and edinburgh and because it _ in glasgow and edinburgh and because it was _ in glasgow and edinburgh and because it was straight - in glasgow and edinburgh and because it was straight after i because it was straight after which — because it was straight after which lockdown _ because it was straight after which lockdown it _ because it was straight after which lockdown it was - because it was straight after which lockdown it was at i because it was straight afteri which lockdown it was at that point, — which lockdown it was at that point, the _ which lockdown it was at that point, the whole _ which lockdown it was at that| point, the whole marketplace was flooded. _ point, the whole marketplace was flooded. and _ point, the whole marketplace was flooded. and it's - point, the whole marketplace was flooded. and it's floodedj was flooded. and it's flooded with— was flooded. and it's flooded with global— was flooded. and it's flooded with global productions, i with global productions, massive _ with global productions, massive streaming i with global productions, - massive streaming productions. and to — massive streaming productions. and to phit's _ massive streaming productions. and to phil's point, _ massive streaming productions. and to phil's point, making i massive streaming productions. and to phil's point, making thei and to phil's point, making the point _ and to phil's point, making the point in — and to phil's point, making the point in a — and to phil's point, making the point in a slightly— and to phil's point, making the point in a slightly different i point in a slightly different way, — point in a slightly different way, the _ point in a slightly different way, the inflation, - point in a slightly different way, the inflation, the i point in a slightly differentl way, the inflation, the crew rate — way, the inflation, the crew rate inflation, _ way, the inflation, the crew rate inflation, location- way, the inflation, the crew. rate inflation, location rates, tocation _ rate inflation, location rates, location inflation _ rate inflation, location rates, location inflation meant i rate inflation, location rates, location inflation meant that| location inflation meant that our show. _ location inflation meant that our show. it— location inflation meant that our show, it was _ location inflation meant that our show, it was almost i our show, it was almost impossible _ our show, it was almost impossible to— our show, it was almost impossible to produce l our show, it was almosti impossible to produce it. our show, it was almost - impossible to produce it. sol think— impossible to produce it. sol think there _ impossible to produce it. sol think there a _ impossible to produce it. sol think there a double - impossible to produce it. sol think there a double edge - impossible to produce it. so i i think there a double edge sword here as — think there a double edge sword here as well— think there a double edge sword here as well which _ think there a double edge sword here as well which is _ think there a double edge sword here as well which is because i here as well which is because we've — here as well which is because we've iieeh_ here as well which is because we've been so_ here as well which is because we've been so successful - here as well which is because we've been so successful in l here as well which is because . we've been so successful in the creation — we've been so successful in the creation of— we've been so successful in the creation of our _ we've been so successful in the creation of our incentives, - creation of our incentives, particularly _ creation of our incentives, particularly the _ creation of our incentives, particularly the high—end i creation of our incentives, i particularly the high—end film and television _ particularly the high—end film and television tax _ particularly the high—end film and television tax incentive . particularly the high—end film and television tax incentive is meant — and television tax incentive is meant that— and television tax incentive is meant that we _ and television tax incentive is meant that we are _ and television tax incentive is meant that we are flooded i and television tax incentive is i meant that we are flooded with other— meant that we are flooded with other programming— meant that we are flooded with other programming from - other programming from elsewhere, _ other programming from elsewhere, commissions other programming from - elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere _ elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere but— elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere but help _ elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere but help her- elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere but help her up - elsewhere, commissions from elsewhere but help her up our cruise — elsewhere but help her up our cruise so— elsewhere but help her up our cruise. so production - elsewhere but help her up our cruise. so production base - elsewhere but help her up our cruise. so production base as| cruise. so production base as it got— cruise. so production base as it got to _ cruise. so production base as it got to be _ cruise. so production base as it got to be what _ cruise. so production base as it got to be what they- cruise. so production base as it got to be what they have i it got to be what they have just — it got to be what they have just described _ it got to be what they have just described and - it got to be what they have just described and that - it got to be what they have j just described and that you have — just described and that you have to _ just described and that you have to keep— just described and that you have to keep growing - just described and that you j have to keep growing skills with — have to keep growing skills with in— have to keep growing skills with in it _ have to keep growing skills with in it— with in it. and that takes ears. with in it. and that takes years so _ with in it. and that takes years. so that's - with in it. and that takes years. so that's what - with in it. and that takes| years. so that's what you with in it. and that takes - years. so that's what you want from a production base. you've all made reference to the streamers several times already. chris curtis from broadcast, let me bring you in here. can you help us understand the scale and the impact amazon and netflix have had on the uk industry?- had on the uk industry? sure. from a uk _ had on the uk industry? sure. from a uk prc _ had on the uk industry? sure. from a uk prc point - had on the uk industry? sure. from a uk prc point of - had on the uk industry? sure. from a uk prc point of view l from a uk prc point of view you have to say investment is great news. and actually from eight uk independent production community perspective it brings with it headaches, the guys have just been talking about, it's fantastic news. because these guys have got budgets that far exceed many domestic players. and that means that the creative ambitions that they are shows have no limits. the inflation everyone talked about, anecdotally, drama producers talk about anything from 7% to about 30% of additional cost at the moment. now covid cost have played into that a little bit. so you got the extra cost particularly of the extra cost particularly of the last 18 months of getting people tested in various different protocols without to observe coupled with the scarcity of top—level talent. ten to 13%. it is a by—product of the excellence in the sector and it's a short to medium—term headache. is the only thing producers want to talk to me about at the moment. can producers want to talk to me about at the moment.- producers want to talk to me about at the moment. can i 'ust aet about at the moment. can i 'ust net in about at the moment. can i 'ust get in there? i about at the moment. can i 'ust get in there? ofi about at the moment. can i 'ust get in there? of course i about at the moment. can i 'ust get in there? of course you b get in there? of course you can — get in there? of course you can i— get in there? of course you can. i would just like to tell everybody how much drama cost to make — everybody how much drama cost to make him a high—end drama. it's anything between 1.5 million _ it's anything between 1.5 million and 3 billion an hour. what — million and 3 billion an hour. what you _ million and 3 billion an hour. what you think, tony? that's a pretty— what you think, tony? that's a pretty good per hour of television. when we are talking about— television. when we are talking about this idea of britishness, when — about this idea of britishness, when we — about this idea of britishness, when we go to a british broadcaster and terrestrials they — broadcaster and terrestrials they will only give us 30 to 40%— they will only give us 30 to 40% of— they will only give us 30 to 40% of the budget. so that is out of— 40% of the budget. so that is out of the _ 40% of the budget. so that is out of the individual producers to go— out of the individual producers to go out— out of the individual producers to go out in the open marketplace, to go to america, france, — marketplace, to go to america, france, spain and try and get partners _ france, spain and try and get partners on board for sometimes up partners on board for sometimes up to— partners on board for sometimes up to 60% — partners on board for sometimes up to 60% of the budget. in one way we — up to 60% of the budget. in one way we att— up to 60% of the budget. in one way we all want to be the very trest— way we all want to be the very best of— way we all want to be the very best of british but we have to partner— best of british but we have to partner with people outside britain _ partner with people outside britain to get those shows made _ britain to get those shows made. . britain to get those shows made. , . ., ., made. chris, ifi could 'oin and eskfi made. chris, ifi could 'oin and ask you i made. chris, ifi could 'oin and ask you nonstop h made. chris, ifi could join| and ask you nonstop about made. chris, ifi could join- and ask you nonstop about the streamers. for people listening, just give us an idea of some of the big shows they made in the uk recently. well, the big one _ made in the uk recently. well, the big one that _ made in the uk recently. well, the big one that yet _ made in the uk recently. well, the big one that yet to - made in the uk recently. well, the big one that yet to come i the big one that yet to come that— the big one that yet to come that is— the big one that yet to come that is going _ the big one that yet to come that is going to— the big one that yet to come that is going to amplify- that is going to amplify everything _ that is going to amplify everything to— that is going to amplify everything to the - that is going to amplify| everything to the power that is going to amplify. everything to the power of that is going to amplify- everything to the power of ten is when — everything to the power of ten is when amazon _ everything to the power of ten is when amazon brings - everything to the power of ten is when amazon brings lord i everything to the power of tenj is when amazon brings lord of the rings — is when amazon brings lord of the rings to— is when amazon brings lord of the rings to the _ is when amazon brings lord of the rings to the uk. _ is when amazon brings lord of the rings to the uk. even - the rings to the uk. even things— the rings to the uk. even things which— the rings to the uk. even things which don't - the rings to the uk. even - things which don't necessarily feel things which don't necessarily feet that _ things which don't necessarily feel that british— things which don't necessarily feel that british or— things which don't necessarily feel that british or kind - things which don't necessarily feel that british or kind of- feel that british or kind of created _ feel that british or kind of created at— feel that british or kind of created at the _ feel that british or kind of created at the stakes, - feel that british or kind of- created at the stakes, britain was _ created at the stakes, britain was shot— created at the stakes, britain was shot and _ created at the stakes, britain was shot and actually- was shot and actually gangbusters - was shot and actually gangbusters success| was shot and actually. gangbusters success for was shot and actually- gangbusters success for netflix without — gangbusters success for netflix without tots _ gangbusters success for netflix without lots of— gangbusters success for netflix without lots of british - gangbusters success for netflix without lots of british crew - without lots of british crew and — without lots of british crew and tots _ without lots of british crew and tots of _ without lots of british crew and lots of british - without lots of british crew and lots of british acting. and lots of british acting talent _ and lots of british acting talent was _ and lots of british acting talent was up _ and lots of british acting talent was up kind - and lots of british acting talent was up kind of- and lots of british acting talent was up kind of an| talent was up kind of an american _ talent was up kind of an american production. i talent was up kind of an american production. tony, ifi could ask _ american production. tony, ifi could ask you _ american production. tony, ifi could ask you about _ american production. tony, ifi could ask you about your - american production. tony, ifi could ask you about your new i could ask you about your new drama crime. that set in scotland. to what degree did the location influence the nature of the story, the way he made a come at the entire product?— made a come at the entire roduct? ~ , ., . product? well, everything was really influenced _ product? well, everything was really influenced by _ product? well, everything was really influenced by being - product? well, everything was| really influenced by being from the writer of trainspotting. it's about as scottish as it could _ it's about as scottish as it could possibly be. i think we used — could possibly be. i think we used the _ could possibly be. i think we used the location in order to add — used the location in order to add to— used the location in order to add to the tone of it as well as the literal physicality of it. as the literal physicality of it i— as the literal physicality of it. ithink as the literal physicality of it. i think what's interesting about— it. i think what's interesting about that is a point just listening to all the stuff about _ listening to all the stuff about britishness is that i think— about britishness is that i think production hubs, they are quite _ think production hubs, they are quite clearly a good thing. there's— quite clearly a good thing. there's no doubt about that. but equally, we've got to look at voice. — but equally, we've got to look at voice. i— but equally, we've got to look at voice, i think. and but equally, we've got to look at voice, ithink. and i but equally, we've got to look at voice, i think. and i think going — at voice, i think. and i think going to _ at voice, i think. and i think going to the regions, going to scotland, going to the nations and we — scotland, going to the nations and we went up there with trying _ and we went up there with trying it— and we went up there with irving it became very clear that— irving it became very clear that they showed was meaningful to all— that they showed was meaningful to all of— that they showed was meaningful to all of our cast and crew. and — to all of our cast and crew. and one _ to all of our cast and crew. and one of the ways that we combated the inflation was by waving — combated the inflation was by waving irving around and introducing irving to people. did he — introducing irving to people. did he like the waves around? yeah, — did he like the waves around? yeah, he _ did he like the waves around? yeah, he loved being waved around _ yeah, he loved being waved around. it's one of his favourite things. but it meant we could _ favourite things. but it meant we could cut deals. and the other— we could cut deals. and the other point that i found when i was up — other point that i found when i was up there for however many months — was up there for however many months it— was up there for however many months it was was there is in entire — months it was was there is in entire constituency there with stories— entire constituency there with stories to tell that were not necessarily tapping into, i think _ necessarily tapping into, i think. and i think that we need to understand the regional voice — to understand the regional voice because stories come from constituencies. and that is britishness.— constituencies. and that is britishness. and i know the others again _ britishness. and i know the others again want - britishness. and i know the others again want to - britishness. and i know the others again want to jump i britishness. and i know the l others again want to jump in. just before you do fail, as we've been talking about tony's new drama. lech is here a little bit of it.— new drama. lech is here a little bit of it. they say the road to hell— little bit of it. they say the road to hell is _ little bit of it. they say the road to hell is paved - little bit of it. they say the - road to hell is paved with good intentions. road to hell is paved with good intentions— intentions. camo 13, vanishes. every day _ intentions. camo 13, vanishes. every day it's _ intentions. camo 13, vanishes. every day it's literally - every day it's literally life—and—death. - every day it's literally| life—and—death. tears every day it's literally - life—and—death. tears my soul apart — life—and—death. tears my soul apart. nobody— life—and—death. tears my soul apart. nobody presents - life—and—death. tears my soul apart. nobody presents is - life—and—death. tears my soul apart. nobody presents is a i apart. nobody presents is a monster— apart. nobody presents is a monster they— apart. nobody presents is a monster they are. - apart. nobody presents is a monster they are.— apart. nobody presents is a monster they are. promise me ou'll monster they are. promise me you'll find _ monster they are. promise me you'll find her. _ monster they are. promise me you'll find her. promise - monster they are. promise me you'll find her. promise me! i you'll find her. promise me! monsters around every corner and under— monsters around every corner and under every bed.- and under every bed. that's 'ust a and under every bed. that's just a little _ and under every bed. that's just a little bit _ and under every bed. that's just a little bit of— and under every bed. that's just a little bit of the - and under every bed. that's just a little bit of the new i just a little bit of the new series crime. still, you want to come in. series crime. still, you want to come im— series crime. still, you want to come in. yes i think tony's oint of to come in. yes i think tony's point of voice _ to come in. yes i think tony's point of voice is _ to come in. yes i think tony's point of voice is really - point of voice is really important. in the heyday of the stoves — important. in the heyday of the stoves that's exactly what they did. stoves that's exactly what they did they — stoves that's exactly what they did. they were all based across the country and bring in a different view and a different accent — different view and a different accent to the issues of the day — accent to the issues of the day that _ accent to the issues of the day. that started a big controversy around it because the children were speaking with dreadful— the children were speaking with dreadful working—class accents. the other— dreadful working—class accents. the other thing i wanted to comment was there is a misnomer in this— comment was there is a misnomer in this debate all the time about— in this debate all the time about the fact that netflix and amazon — about the fact that netflix and amazon are challenging television in fact they're not. they— television in fact they're not. they challenging film. when you're — they challenging film. when you're looking at the campaign, at the _ you're looking at the campaign, at the point about the lord of the rings. _ at the point about the lord of the rings, it's a cinematic project _ the rings, it's a cinematic project. it'sjust that the rings, it's a cinematic project. it's just that the streamers can now make it as long _ streamers can now make it as long and _ streamers can now make it as long and is— streamers can now make it as long and is big as they actually want it. going back to the thing _ actually want it. going back to the thing about soaps and britishness and reflecting the voices— britishness and reflecting the voices and the concerns of a nation _ voices and the concerns of a nation in _ voices and the concerns of a nation. in terms of budget, the soaps _ nation. in terms of budget, the soaps are — nation. in terms of budget, the soaps are always traditionally 25, 30% _ soaps are always traditionally 25, 30% of the costs of primetime drama. so the connexion between cost of production and quality and content _ production and quality and content and britishness, doesn't _ content and britishness, doesn't go relate. so whether it's britishness we can come back— it's britishness we can come back and _ it's britishness we can come back and make great programmes about— back and make great programmes about britishness, great scripts, _ about britishness, great scripts, great writers and everything but you don't have to enter — everything but you don't have to enter that minefield of trying _ to enter that minefield of trying to compete with netflix or amazon about it. | trying to compete with netflix or amazon about it.— trying to compete with netflix or amazon about it. i guess the cuestion or amazon about it. i guess the question is _ or amazon about it. i guess the question is sarah _ or amazon about it. i guess the question is sarah doyle, - or amazon about it. i guess the question is sarah doyle, as - or amazon about it. i guess the question is sarah doyle, as we | question is sarah doyle, as we listen to the points of server redman do you believe that britishness needs to be protected, they need to be entered pension in order to help british tv remain distinct?— distinct? look, i don't completely _ distinct? look, i don't completely agree - distinct? look, i don't completely agree with distinct? look, i don't- completely agree with the government prescribing what stories we can and can't tell. the greatjoy of being british is free speech, hearing different voices. that would rule out things like normal people which was the big success of lockdown. we wouldn't of seen war and peace on the bbc. you can name hundreds and hundreds of programmes was that but the governments not suggesting it should be made it'sjust wants to make sure that stories rooted in the uk are told. i just think it's a little bit of a slippery slope to sort of nationalistic entrapment. because we have to let the creators tell the stories they want to tell. that's ourjob as producers. and surely that's the imagination of storytelling, isn't it? you could put it anywhere, any time in any space. iiii could put it anywhere, any time in any space-— in any space. if you look at the performance _ in any space. if you look at the performance of - in any space. if you look at the performance of itv - the performance of itv recently, doing very well in its last figures, it would suggest that a commercial operation like itv can make lots of programme, many of them rooted in british stories to make a good profit given the current situation. i make a good profit given the current situation.— current situation. i think the sin . le current situation. i think the single most _ current situation. i think the single most important - current situation. i think the single most important thing | current situation. i think the - single most important thing the government can do to protect british— government can do to protect british programming is ensure healthy. — british programming is ensure healthy, robust future for a public — healthy, robust future for a public service broadcasting in the uk — public service broadcasting in the uk. lf public service broadcasting in the uk. . ., , the uk. if it creates the market _ the uk. if it creates the market circumstances, | the uk. if it creates the l market circumstances, it the uk. if it creates the - market circumstances, it is sorts — market circumstances, it is sorts of— market circumstances, it is sorts of prominence - market circumstances, it is sorts of prominence of - market circumstances, it is sorts of prominence of the | market circumstances, it is . sorts of prominence of the ps bees — sorts of prominence of the ps bees can— sorts of prominence of the ps bees can make _ sorts of prominence of the ps bees can make sure - sorts of prominence of the ps bees can make sure that - sorts of prominence of the ps| bees can make sure that their programmes— bees can make sure that their programmes are _ bees can make sure that their programmes are easily - bees can make sure that their programmes are easily found i bees can make sure that their. programmes are easily found as more _ programmes are easily found as more more _ programmes are easily found as more more people _ programmes are easily found as more more people are - programmes are easily found as more more people are watching| more more people are watching through— more more people are watching through apple _ more more people are watching through apple or— more more people are watching through apple or amazon - more more people are watching through apple or amazon or - through apple or amazon or other— through apple or amazon or other programmes, - through apple or amazon or other programmes, if- through apple or amazon or other programmes, if it- through apple or amazon or. other programmes, if it gives the bbc— other programmes, if it gives the bbc a _ other programmes, if it gives the bbc a licence _ other programmes, if it gives the bbc a licence fee - other programmes, if it gives the bbc a licence fee and - other programmes, if it gives i the bbc a licence fee and look, were _ the bbc a licence fee and look, were not— the bbc a licence fee and look, were not na ve _ the bbc a licence fee and look, were not na ve or— the bbc a licence fee and look, were not na ve or not- the bbc a licence fee and look, were not na ve or not they - the bbc a licence fee and look, were not na ve or not they can| were not na ve or not they can begin— were not na ve or not they can begin to — were not na ve or not they can begin to get — were not na ve or not they can begin to get a _ were not na ve or not they can begin to get a huge _ were not na ve or not they can begin to get a huge storage. l were not na ve or not they can| begin to get a huge storage. if they— begin to get a huge storage. if they can — begin to get a huge storage. if they can avoid _ begin to get a huge storage. if they can avoid cutting - begin to get a huge storage. if they can avoid cutting the - begin to get a huge storage. if they can avoid cutting the legsj they can avoid cutting the legs of the — they can avoid cutting the legs of the bbc— they can avoid cutting the legs of the bbc was _ they can avoid cutting the legs of the bbc was some - they can avoid cutting the legs of the bbc was some sort - they can avoid cutting the legs of the bbc was some sort of. of the bbc was some sort of crippling _ of the bbc was some sort of crippling licence _ of the bbc was some sort of crippling licence fee - crippling licence fee settlement - crippling licence fee settlement and - crippling licence fee settlement and if. crippling licence fee| settlement and if he crippling licence fee - settlement and if he can find an outcome _ settlement and if he can find an outcome for— settlement and if he can find an outcome for channel- settlement and if he can find an outcome for channel 4 . settlement and if he can find i an outcome for channel 4 that doesn't — an outcome for channel 4 that doesn't turn _ an outcome for channel 4 that doesn't turn channel- an outcome for channel 4 that doesn't turn channel or- an outcome for channel 4 that doesn't turn channel or into i doesn't turn channel or into just— doesn't turn channel or into just another— doesn't turn channel or into just another broadcaster, . doesn't turn channel or into - just another broadcaster, which is the _ just another broadcaster, which is the threat, _ just another broadcaster, which is the threat, the _ just another broadcaster, which is the threat, the danger- is the threat, the danger through— is the threat, the danger through privatisation- is the threat, the dangeri through privatisation then is the threat, the danger. through privatisation then it will have _ through privatisation then it will have created _ through privatisation then it will have created the - will have created the circumstances - will have created the circumstances in - will have created the i circumstances in which will have created the - circumstances in which we can have _ circumstances in which we can have a — circumstances in which we can have a healthy— circumstances in which we can have a healthy product - circumstances in which we canj have a healthy product service sector— have a healthy product service sector for— have a healthy product service sector for the _ have a healthy product service sector for the next, _ have a healthy product service sector for the next, ten- have a healthy product service sector for the next, ten to - have a healthy product service sector for the next, ten to 20 i sector for the next, ten to 20 years — sector for the next, ten to 20 years. those _ sector for the next, ten to 20 years. those ps— sector for the next, ten to 20 years. those ps bees- sector for the next, ten to 20 i years. those ps bees inevitably and willfully— years. those ps bees inevitably and willfully produced _ and willfully produced fantastic— and willfully produced fantastic british- and willfully produced fantastic british made and willfully produced - fantastic british made content of precisely _ fantastic british made content of precisely the _ fantastic british made content of precisely the kind - fantastic british made content of precisely the kind that - of precisely the kind that we've _ of precisely the kind that we've been— of precisely the kind that we've been talking - of precisely the kind that we've been talking about of precisely the kind that - we've been talking about the last half— hour. _ we've been talking about the last half-hour.— last half-hour. that's quite a lone list last half-hour. that's quite a long list of— last half-hour. that's quite a long list of heirs. _ last half-hour. that's quite a long list of heirs. will - last half-hour. that's quite a long list of heirs. will have l long list of heirs. will have to see if the government manages to do that. briefly as we head towards the end of the programme phil redman first, do you think the government should intervene in some way to protect her support britishness and tv? i protect her support britishness and tv? ~ , protect her support britishness and tv? ~' , , ., and tv? i think they should. i'd be a and tv? i think they should. m be a bit _ and tv? i think they should. i'd be a bit protect _ and tv? i think they should. i'd be a bit protect the - and tv? i think they should. i'd be a bit protect the bbc. | i'd be a bit protect the bbc. we need _ i'd be a bit protect the bbc. we need to move into the 21st century— we need to move into the 21st century so _ we need to move into the 21st century so we need to make sure it's sustained, it makes programmes for the british taxpayers. make it a levy on their— taxpayers. make it a levy on their programme bills instead of a tax _ their programme bills instead of a tax. actually make channel four and — of a tax. actually make channel four and bbc and stills set up that— four and bbc and stills set up that advertising and advertising subsidises the bbc. that is— advertising subsidises the bbc. that is the way to protect the whole — that is the way to protect the whole thing. that is the way to protect the whole thing-— that is the way to protect the whole thin. ., , ., . whole thing. tony would? well, i whole thing. tony would? well, i certainly _ whole thing. tony would? well, i certainly agree _ whole thing. tony would? well, i certainly agree that _ whole thing. tony would? well, i certainly agree that the - whole thing. tony would? well, i certainly agree that the ps - i certainly agree that the ps bees need protecting. selfishly and personally i wouldn't mind and personally i wouldn't mind a little bit more being put into the indies. or maybe the more practical, more practical way of looking as that is that the creative communities may need a little more sustaining. because in the last 20 years with itv consolidating london and various other moves it's become very difficult. br; and various other moves it's become very difficult. by which ou meet become very difficult. by which you meet what? _ become very difficult. by which you meet what? what - become very difficult. by which you meet what? what support | you meet what? what support that you would like to see offered?— that you would like to see offered? ~ �*, . , offered? well, it's a flippant comment- — offered? well, it's a flippant comment. if— offered? well, it's a flippant comment. if only _ offered? well, it's a flippant comment. if only to - offered? well, it's a flippant comment. if only to be - offered? well, it's a flippant l comment. if only to be honest but the truth of the matter is as i said, stories come from constituencies and voice comes from constituencies. international character is created by those various voices. so i think that the work that film agencies do come work that film agencies do come work at the regional film bodies do is excellent. perhaps there should be more. fin bodies do is excellent. perhaps there should be more.- there should be more. on that note, there should be more. on that note. we _ there should be more. on that note, we will— there should be more. on that note, we will have _ there should be more. on that note, we will have to - there should be more. on that note, we will have to leave - note, we will have to leave it. many thanks to all of our guest. sarah doyle chief executive of red production company, tony wood chief executive of buccaneer media, sir phil redman creators great show, hollyoaks and brookside. and chris curtis the editor of broadcast was up we will be back next week at the usual time. for now for me and all of the bbc show team, thanks for watching and bye—bye. hello, well, the weekend is not looking bad at all for most of us. it's going be milder, a fair amount of cloud, i think i'm but some of us will have some decent spells of sunshine. let's have a look at the here and now and skies of cleared in some spots across scotland, certainly eastern and southern scotland in some areas further south. generally, a loss of cloud to start the day in really mild, at least to just ten or 11 degrees of this time of year, early in the morning it should be around five degrees so we are well above the average. and it's going to be mild by day too. i think the best chance of some sunshine across central areas of the uk certainly southern scotland and the lake district lancashire, parts of the midlands too. 1a the top temperature in london, will probably match that in belfast too. scotland will be closer to 11 or 12, how about the outlook was back remember, it is sunday. not much change on monday, tuesday or indeed, wednesday. welcome to bbc news. i'm alice baxter. our top stories: a last push for a meaningful agreement: cop26 continues talks into saturday. the man in charge calls for a can—do spirit. we have come a long way over the past two weeks and now, we need that final injection of that can—do spirit which is present at this cop, so that we get this shared endeavour over the line. trump ally steve bannon indicted on two counts of contempt of congress over the investigation into the attack on the capitol. singer britney spears regains control of her life and career as a judge overturns a conservatorship imposed 13 years ago.

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