time for the media show. hello. how do you interest the public in public interestjournalism? how do you get a bigger splash? that is the theme of today's programme. the largest leak of offshore data in history has seen newspapers around the world co—ordinate to unleash the pandora papers. their findings have revealed the hidden wealth and tax avoidance of some of the world's richest and most powerful people. over in the states, a facebook whistle—blower and an expose into a media company have also got journalists very excited. but how can the public be persuaded to pay attention to stories like these? what tips something from worth reporting to game—changing? let me introduce you to my guests. ben smith is media columnist at the new york times, and before that, he was editor—in—chief at buzzfeed news. so, ben, we will be talking a lot today about investigations, which is an art form that you are familiar with. tell me, what would you say has been your own biggest investigation? one of the glories of being an editor is being able to take credit for other people's work, and so i'lljust go ahead and do that and had a basically quite small hand in the project that won the pulitzer this year that a reporter did after getting tossed out of china, the investigation of the uyghurs�* treatment, and it was really likejust a feat of incredible reporting because she had done it after being tossed out. i was proud to be associated with that. ok, you take glory too. thank you, ben. more from you later on. we're going to talk about your extraordinary reporting on the company ozy media. alexandra suich bass is also with us. she is senior columnist for the economist covering politics, technology and society, and shejoins us from dallas. alexandra, hello. is there any part of your brief that facebook haven't touched on this week? no, facebook has been keeping me busy. i think the last time i was on the media show — i'm actually having a sense of deja vu. it was during the cambridge analytica scandal in 2018 and we were talking about that and facebook's epic fail. and we're back at it. it's probably not a good look that mark zuckerberg has posted himself sailing on instagram during a really difficult, challenging time for the company. it's been anything but smooth sailing for him. and we will definitely talk about that. obviously outages is other things as well have happened. juliette garcide is deputy business editor at the guardian and worked on the guardian's pandora papers coverage. and, juliette, you also worked on the paradise papers and the panama papers. can you remind us what links them all and why do they all begin with the letter p? well, the letter p, i don't know, itjust happened. l and we do get them confused. but they are about similarl things, getting bigger each time. so, the panama papers. was a leak of information from the offshore law firm mossack fonseca about "i million files, the paradise i papers was from a different offshore law firm called appleby. i i think there were 13 - million files in that one. and then the pandora papers is 14 different offshore law i firms. and we all worked on it - together with an organisation in washington called the icij, l who received the data and then shared it out to hundreds of journalists all around i the world and we all published together. | and margot gibbs is an investigative reporter for the aptly named international consortium of investigativejournalists. she is one of the 600 journalists around the world who've been working on those pandora papers. let's kick off with you, margot. what happens first? because you had over 11 million financial records to choose from. so, how did you set about this? so, i think it starts with a massive data crunch from icij's data team. so, we have all of the files stored on some server somewhere, don't know where, or many servers presumably. and i think there's kind of a months—long process of machine reading those files so that we, as journalists, can then go and quiz the files, essentially, and give them our hypotheses. and say, ok, is there dirty money coming into the uk, is there questionable funds going into our democratic process ? and if you're looking for, which you are, looking forjuicy exposes, looking for big names, how do you find those? yeah, so i think that comes with your hypotheses, basically, i suppose. and i think you've seen, from the guardian's fantastic coverage of uk political donations, part of the process is you run all political donors over a certain size and then you see what the results are. and then comes the huge amount of reporting that goes into digging through, ok, "is this a false positive, is this an interesting record? "what can we do by going outside the files "and reporting elsewhere?" as i think that they have done fantastically with one report for example. and, yeah, isuppose you start with the hypothesis of something that would be an important story to tell, and then you go and quiz the data with what would, you know, if this were true, we would find something, right? yeah, so that's the kind of process. i mean, from a personal point of view, what i'm really interested in as well is how do you feel when you are doing it? because is it like a slog or do you get a buzz out of it? i get such a buzz, i think juliette can probably speak to this as well, but it's really exciting. when you think that you are actually finding something that's a realjuicy nugget, it's incredibly fun, it's incredibly exciting. i think one of the... i came onto this project in february, i think other people have been on it for much longer. one of the things that's most difficult, especially for quite a small organisation, is you can get countless stories from these leaks, but if you're launching at a particular time, the logistics of writing that many stories in, essentially, like, a week is tough. so, we have — each of the reporters who been involved in this will have been sending dozens of comment letters over the last month. that's a hugely time—consuming process in order to be responsible journalists, we had to give everyone else the right to reply, and in a project like this, that's just a phenomenal feat. juliette, margot is at the icu, as we mentioned, and you have been doing this for the guardian. so, how does that work? i mean, after all, there are 150 different media companies all working on pandora and that is over 600 journalists. so, how are you all coordinating? well, we communicate. the main thing is share everything, communicate really thoroughly, really well. don't keep stuff back. i know that it's in the instinct of many journalists, particularly investigative journalists, to act as lone wolves, but we have to kind of unlearn all that. and it often kicks off with a big gathering where maybe people are looking at the data for a few weeks and then we all head off.. i've been to a couple of big gatherings in germany and it's like united nations of journalism. you have people there from every part of the world and they are all talking about the same project and it's a very forceful feeling and we're like a big family and we come back to each other and we trust each other. and i could not believe when i worked in the first one of these that nobody had kind of tried to get a head start on the rest. and that's because you know that you are just going to have so much more impact when you do it together. it's an international firestorm, and it only works that way because we do it together. and there were moments when information started leaking out because the people we were writing to were trying to get ahead of the game on all these projects and trying to get their side of the story out before we published. and i remember gerard, who's a director of icij, like a sort of general at the front of his troops, saying, "hold, hold, hold and then charge!" and you all go down the hill together. let's get to that. i've seen you describe the whole process is being like bashing at a giant pinata, that kind of idea, which i think is a lovely image. but in terms of the timing of publication, you know, you've got some conservative party donors and co—chair ben elliott, they've all had their financial activities raked over as part of pandora, as publishing in the week of the conservative party conference. that's notjust sheer luck, is it? well, it depends. that worked out well for the guardian, and we are a really important partner in these investigations because our website is free to access and it's very widely read. and we put a lot of effort into these. so, we have some influence over the timing, but it's also to do with how long the project takes. we weren't going to ready to publish this before the summer, so we are looking at autumn. so we had to pick the best timing for autumn. ben smith from the new york times, i mean, that's the pandora papers, but you've had your own expose of sorts this week, and for listeners who don't know, tell us what is ozy media and how did you come to be writing about it? you know, i think i shouldl premise this by saying that as high—stakes and global. and really kind of important as the pandora papers were, this is like the lowest stakes| story in the history of media. and i actually think that i that is maybe part of why people liked it so much- and it is sort of a challenge. i worked on the previous icij, the fincen files, it is hard i to get people to engage with those stories, - whereas the story i'm - about to tell people really love to engage with, _ which was about a media company in california that presented itself on the inside - and as the leading millennial- media company, even though no one has ever heard of it, essentially. l it persuaded many of- the richest people in the world and various media investors to give them their money, i as well as very— sophisticated advertisers. and something in particular, as you say, tipped it over, something dramatic happened. can you tell us about that? yeah, i mean, ithink they were pretending to have a very financially strong relationship - with youtube, when in fact i they were making a television show that they just - posted to youtube the way you or i could post. a video to youtube. and so at some point, - the rubber meets the road when goldman sachs, - which was about to invest $40 million, wants to talk i to youtube, just a kind of check in on how that business is and they, l rather than putting them - on the phone with a youtube executive who willjust say, "yeah, they're just guys - who upload videos," _ they impersonate said youtube executive and say, "well, . these ozy guys are amazing" and they got caught. immediately. i have to say now that ozy has admitted to this impersonation incident and attributed it to a mental health episode. that last detail is named - after the poem ozymandias, which the founder, the founder believes his message - is dream big. and famous also and breaking bad, i believe. but, ben, before all this happened, ozy media it was establishing itself as a major player. it had some big collaborations, and one comes to mind. i work on the world services feedback programme, and there was a lot of praise for a series that ozy did with the bbc. so it was an appealing investment, was it not, to traditional media companies? it was an appealing investment for people who had no idea - what was going on in the actual world of actual media. - i think in part because it - presented a kind of diverse, progressive, millennialvibe that had no conflict, - no substance nobody getting l in trouble, nobody was getting any secret tax hideouts, nothing like that that. would scare any millionaires or advertisers. _ but at the same time, some people would say they identified the market. it was not polemical, it was not brash, it was not polarising. in some ways, it should work, should it not? no, i don't think so. i mean, maybe. i mean media that is boring and has no stakes is not. traditionally media - people want to consume. well, alexandra from the economist, we on the media show talk lot about the need for a friendlier, more thoughtful journalism. but bearing in mind what ben just said, is the internet geared up to allow that? is it actually what people want, do you think? i think social media and the internet reflects human beings and society, so many people like to point fingers at social media. there is a question about whether or not we should be pointing the finger at ourselves as well. but i think it's certainly much more entertaining political theatre to point the finger at facebook and social media firms for all the problems that we are perceiving on the internet. in terms of ben's story, i did have one observation. it strikes me that ozy media's kind of the theranos of the digital media space. it has come down quite quickly. it had a founder that a lot of people wanted to believe in for a variety of reasons. and it kind of played fast and loose like a lot of startups in silicon valley did. so, as i was reading ben's fascinating coverage, i was having flashbacks to the wall streetjournal report a few years ago on theranos. just to update us what is the actual state of play right now with ozy media? they shut down friday. the ceo then came on monday and un—shut it down— and compared the company to lazarus who jesus rose l from the dead. and are now facing lawsuits from investors who would l like to shut back down and give them their money please. - 0k. the reason we asked about... i asked what this whole notion of what this whole notion of the public is interested in is because that is the kind of investigative journalism that i can argue all four of you do. i mean, alexandra from the economist, frances haugen, the former facebook employee appeared before the us senate this week accusing facebook of harming democracy and putting profits before public good. now obviously they deny this and have disputed much of what she said, and this all seems like a juicy story. but i want to read you a tweet from veteran silicon valley observer benedict evans. he says, "i really wonder how much any facebook story now changes anyone�*s minds. this group of people is now quite convinced that facebook is evil. and see any news story as proof. and the rest of us who think it's alljust a noisy mess." but you have just published a piece for the economist pretty much arguing the opposite, have you not? so, i think congressional hearings have become a little bit like minor holidays. nothing changes after them and they all blur together, and so i expected that to be true of yesterday's hearing which frances haugen, the whistle—blower, testified about the documents that she's leaked on facebook's behaviour and some of its internal research. i would argue that yesterday's hearing was a turning point. you can make a counterclaim and history would support that which is nothing has changed after these hearings before. in some ways, what the whistle—blower has shown is what we all already knew about facebook, its two—faced toxicity and now we just have a new fresh evidence for it. but i think this time it's different for two reasons. the first is that this concerns children and teenagers, and i think that it's much easier to understand the pernicious harms that social media have on kids. if you compare it to the sort of cambridge analytica scandal, it was much more complicated to understand. it involved adults, data mining, privacy concerns, and so it was a big deal in the media, i think it resonated less with every person, than children and concerns about harm to children. and then i think that ultimately this is going to change tech for a different reason, and it will affect facebook but also affect other tech firms because i think this is the start of the golden age of whistle—blowing in tech. all these big firms have, well, a lot of them have played fast and loose. they have not grown up in a harsh regulatory climate. and i think there are a lot of employees now that have seen how frances haugen has been lionised. she was called a 21st—century american hero by several senators. and i think that that is going to encourage a lot of people who work at these companies who may feel ambivalent about some of the work that they have contributed to, to step forward. so i think this is a big deal for facebook and i think that the scrutiny is going to spread to other big tech firms as well. this is just the start. ok, because i could argue this debate is only interesting to media types like, and political types like us, in a sense, and that the person in the street really only cares when their instagram and whatsapp stop working, as they did this week. and, ben, what's your take on that? is this a turning point? you know, i think there's been sort of waves battering - facebook and the barricades - around facebook for a while and it'sjust like a moment- where maybe the water kind of comes over and in terms of american congressionall action, there's a tonne of pressure on them. i and it's happening at. a time when a big part of their business, not the only part, but a big part— which is the blue facebook app clearly is losing traction. - and, you know, social networks can collapse really fast. - and i think that in some ways, i you know, you can overestimate their strength as a company and they're under a lot - of pressure right now, - and i think it's going to be a challenge for them. you know, i also think - there are these big questions that in part because facebook is so secretive about its - research and does not open itself up to researchers, - are hard to answer. like, for instance, are women and girls struggling with body| image more than they did - in the 1990s when it was coming from pop culture - and from magazines? that is reasonably a question that could be answered - with research. i'm not sure it's- clear, though, right? it's hard to disentangle - all the factors, and facebook makes it extra hard with secrecy. - and is this is a turning point because whistle—blowers can feel more confident now. do you think that's true? i do think employee activism in silicon valley and around i the world has become. just a huge, huge force in corporate life. and the extent to which these ceos are increasingly - constrained by what their employees will accept. is something - you are seeing here. well, whistle—blowing is massive parts of the pandora papers story. juliette garcide from the guardian, it's obviously worth reporting this story, but it's not given that people will read it. how do you keep the public hooked is a crucial point, and how do you keep the story alive from one day to the next? well, yeah, iagree. tax, offshore structures, it's not easily digestible over your cornflakes. but we're lucky because we're talking about the 1% or the 0.1% here and some pretty crooked people, quite often. and we're talking about celebrities, and you've got the private jet—flying, you know, yacht with helipad—chartering oligarchs, so you get a wonderful window into how this global elite live and how they cheat the system. and you get... our readers love it. they love it, they lap it up, they donate when we run these stories because they see why we write them. they see the unfairness. you know, in the uk, the debate about tax was really was dominated for years by tabloid stories about people cheating on their benefits, poor people, a cleaner who was claiming benefits and working cash in hand, stuff like that, a builder. what we've seen through these leaks is the rich cheat much more, on a baroque scale. and you can't run that argument any more about benefits cheats, and you see fully exposed to the extent to which laws are there and politicians vote them in, in order to enable this kind of behaviour. now, i don't a lot has changed, but i would say that the biden—oecd tax plan, which we're going to get an announcement on later this week, about stopping multinationals shifting profits around the world is probably in part due to reporting like the pandora papers. ok, ok, but i want to go back to the whole notion of making these stories, if you like, sexy. again from my personal experience working on a tv documentary on the enron scandal, the producer had to come up with some really imaginative visual metaphors to try and keep the viewer engaged and hooked. and, alexandra, i'm sure in a sense the economist has to think hard about this, too. keeping the reader hooked. i think, absolutely. and also i think what unites both of these stories is it confirms things that people already suspected and didn't quite know. also, how so, also how... everyone assumes that the wealthy and oligarchs kind of bend the rules and own properties in tonnes of different luxurious territories. and everyone kind of assumes that facebook chooses profits over consumers and societal welfare. how do you tell what might feel like a familiar story in a new way? i think a lot of it also comes down to the writing, i would like to think. and to a certain extent the framing, so that you remind the user, your readers, what is truly new and why they need to care. well, just before we end, let's think about what, if any, impact public interest journalism can actually have. juliette garcide from the guardian, will the pandora papers actually change anything, do you think? we're waiting for long—promised better transparency in the uk about who owes what land, for example, what property. let me turn to you, ben smith, is there a danger with all these stories that the public has a kind of sense of leak fatigue? do you sense that? yeah, for sure. and i think the challenge of stories that confirm i what people already knewl is that they can sometimes shrug because they're not surprised. - that said, i think there'sl a real series of icij leaks, of which is the latest - and biggest, they have caused a bunch of legal action, at least in the states. i i mean, the us, the congress, in pretty large part due - to the fincen files, _ made it much harder to operate through anonymous shell companies. i that is a real- meaningful advance. and actually the relationship between tonnes of people i reading and getting excited about story and legislative i or law enforcement action, i it's not always totally linear, right? like sometimes you have one reader, but it's the right- reader, it's the chairwoman of the committee, so... - margot, from your perspective, do you think this will lead to real change? well, you are already seeing in the us that lawmakers are pushing an anti—corruption bill called the enablers act, which is exactly to do with the fact that icij and its hundreds of partners and reported public interest issues, which involve notjust the dirty money of individual people, but dirty money which is facilitated across borders by people in suits, the lawyers, the bankers, the pr firms. and, yeah, that's already happening, so the impact is there. and often, you know, this is a reminder, as everyone has said, of things we suspected were happening anyway, but clearly this kind of publication helps to actually improve things. and all your hard slog has been worth it, is an aspect of that. alexandra, last word to you. do you think that all these revelations actually will change things? well, i think this was absolutely a week that reinforced the power of media. the facebook whistle—blower chose not just to go to the sec and regulators to report her concern, but went to the wall street journal because public scrutiny would force the hand of regulators and potentially make greater change. so, i think that all of these stories highlight the power and relevance of traditional media. well, that is all we have got time for today. thank you to all my guests, tojuliette garcide, deputy political editor at the guardian, to ben smith media columnist at the new york times, alexandra suich bass, a columnist at the economist and margot gibbs, investigative reporter at the international consortium of investigative journalists. the media show will be back at the same time next week. for now, goodbye. hello. plenty of cloud across the uk yesterday and plenty of it still around today as well. glimmers of sunshine or sunny spells at best, i think, sums up our forecast for the majority. for scotland, the cloud is going to bring some quite meaningful rain in through the day as this weather front sinks its way south. and as the rain arrives, the winds will strengthen as well. gales for the northern isles, the rain getting down into the central belt of scotland in time for the evening rush hour. to the south, temperatures still up to 16—17 degrees. behind the weather front, much colder air arriving, though, temperatures in the low teens. and we'll see that colder air following the weather front south across the uk overnight thursday into friday. it makes way for much more sunshine on friday. but behind this weather front, it will feel considerably chillier. perhaps the south—west of the uk clinging onto something a bit milder, a bit more cloud here. elsewhere, though, temperatures in the low teens. welcome to bbc news. i'm lewis vaughan jones. our top stories: president biden announces around—the—clock working at a second major us port in a bid to tackle supply chain disruption. five people have been killed in an attack in norway by a man armed with a bow and arrow. a posthumous honour for henrietta lacks whose cells were taken without consent after she died in the 50s, and who's gone on to save countless lives. star trek�*s william shatner — at the age of 90 — makes history as the oldest person to go into space. what you have given me is the most profound experience ican ever... it's odd, i'm so filled with emotion about whatjust happened.

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