and joining them, virtually, will be 30 members of the public. the debate gets underway in around 20 minutes' time, and between now and then we'll be looking at the main issues of discussion with our political analysts — professor sirjohn curtice, professor of politics at university of strathclyde, lesley riddoch, author and broadcaster and pro—independence campaigner, and pamela nash, chief executive of scotland in union. but first, our scotland editor sarah smith — who'll be asking the questions tonight — has this preview of what'll be happening later. soon, i'll bejoined here by the leaders of all five of the major political parties in scotland, who, as you can see, are going to be at an appropriate social distance from each other, and the audience members will come via the magic of technology. they will be asking their questions via zoom on screens that politicians will be able to see, assuming that they remember to unmute of course. and in my experience, it's much, much harderfor the politicians to try and dodge the question in any way when it is voters that are directly asking them rather than when it is journalists like me that are doing it. myjob simply is going to be to try and keep order, to make sure they are not all shouting over each other so that viewers can actually listen to what they are saying, and to try and make sure that they answer those questions. now, they do not know what they are going to be, so i am not going to give that away, but we will be discussing the big themes that are important in this election. that is how we will recover from the covid pandemic, what would happen with health and education in the future. and this is a really crucial election for scotland. it is about economic recovery and building back from the coronavirus pandemic, it is also an election which could determine the future of the uk, so it is very, very important. it is going to kick off tonight when we hear from all five of the party leaders. the one thing i can tell you that they are going to have to answer, we are going to start off with them telling us in 45 seconds why voters should trust them with their vote on the 6th of may. sarah smith, who will will be joining in around 20 minutes' time. so, what is at stake on 6 may? there are 129 seats to be contested in the scottish parliamentary elections. of those 129 seats, there are 73 constituencies — with one msp elected per seat. the remaining 56 msps are elected from eight "regional lists" — with seven being chosen from each list. the party that wins the most seats will form the scottish government. with me is professorjohn curtice, professor of politics at university of strathclyde, lesley riddoch, author and broadcaster and pro—independence campaigner, and i'm alsojoined by pamela nash, chief executive of scotland in union. welcome to you all. there is quite a lot to get through. this is the first time, john, that the five main party leaders have actually faced off against each other. two are extremely well known, the other three are perhaps less so. what do we think this debate is going to be dominated, which issues will dominated, which issues will dominate tonight? in dominated, which issues will dominate tonight?— dominated, which issues will dominate tonight? in part, there will be an argument _ dominate tonight? in part, there will be an argument in _ dominate tonight? in part, there will be an argument in this - dominate tonight? in part, there. will be an argument in this debate about what the election should be about. it is pretty clear, i think, that the question of independence will arise, that the question of independence willarise, pretty that the question of independence will arise, pretty centrally in the debate. miss sturgeon will argue and will be largely backed by lorna slater from the greens, will pursue the argument that in the wake of the pandemic, scotland needs to become independent because that is the only way in which it will be able to achieve the recovery that is necessary. in contrast, and asked sarwar for labour and douglas necessary. in contrast, and asked sarwarfor labour and douglas ross for the conservatives and willie rennie for the liberal democrats will be arguing the opposite, saying that holding a referendum at any point in the immediate future as an unwanted and unnecessary distraction that will reduce scotland's chances of recovering from the pandemic. they will be making very different arguments in the unionist politicians will be saying we should not be talking about the constitutional question, but i think you will discover tonight that all of them will be talking about the constitutional question. not least because it is now very clear that this is a central issue for voters. according to a recent poll, no less than 87% of various people who say they would vote yes on an independence referendum say they will vote for the snp on the ballot. 0nly will vote for the snp on the ballot. only 7% of the no voters. the snp vote and support for independence are now synonymous with each other in a way they have not really previously been. given that the polls also suggest that around half of the people in scotland do now want independence, you can see why it is going to be difficult to avoid. , , ., , ., ., avoid. lesley, how badly damaged has nicola sturgeon _ avoid. lesley, how badly damaged has nicola sturgeon been _ avoid. lesley, how badly damaged has nicola sturgeon been by _ avoid. lesley, how badly damaged has nicola sturgeon been by the _ avoid. lesley, how badly damaged has nicola sturgeon been by the recent - nicola sturgeon been by the recent furore with alex salmond and the fact that he has now performed that new party? it fact that he has now performed that new -a ? , , ., new party? it is impossible to say. we have not _ new party? it is impossible to say. we have not seen _ new party? it is impossible to say. we have not seen any _ new party? it is impossible to say. we have not seen any polling - new party? it is impossible to say. | we have not seen any polling since the alba _ we have not seen any polling since the alba party has been setup. such that there _ the alba party has been setup. such that there has been before that seems — that there has been before that seems to— that there has been before that seems to suggest that there was a perception that nicola sturgeon stood _ perception that nicola sturgeon stood up to eight hours of scrutiny in a way— stood up to eight hours of scrutiny in a way you — stood up to eight hours of scrutiny in a way you would have to say that those _ in a way you would have to say that those who — in a way you would have to say that those who have broken the ministerial code in westminster have neither— ministerial code in westminster have neither done, nor been expected to do. neither done, nor been expected to do came _ neither done, nor been expected to do. came out the other end and actually— do. came out the other end and actually seemed to be creating quite actually seemed to be creating quite a strong _ actually seemed to be creating quite a strong vibe about leadership, such that, _ a strong vibe about leadership, such that, i_ a strong vibe about leadership, such that, i think— a strong vibe about leadership, such that, i think lots of people, including john, felt that the issue of leadership had pretty much been taken _ of leadership had pretty much been taken off— of leadership had pretty much been taken off the front foot. which is what _ taken off the front foot. which is what many people expected her opponents would be pushing on. it will be _ opponents would be pushing on. it will be interesting to see tonight whether— will be interesting to see tonight whether that has crept back onto the agenda _ whether that has crept back onto the agenda. alex salmond is standing on the list. _ agenda. alex salmond is standing on the list. i_ agenda. alex salmond is standing on the list, i know people are always fearful _ the list, i know people are always fearful about working their way into the innards of the scottish electoral system, but there are those _ electoral system, but there are those two — electoral system, but there are those two parts you described and it allows _ those two parts you described and it allows the _ those two parts you described and it allows the snp to stand in the constituencies where they tend to win, the _ constituencies where they tend to win, the lion's share, for that very reason _ win, the lion's share, for that very reason they— win, the lion's share, for that very reason they do not get much on the compensating second list. this reason they do not get much on the compensating second list.— compensating second list. this is hel ful, compensating second list. this is helful, is compensating second list. this is helpful. is it. _ compensating second list. this is helpful, is it, for _ compensating second list. this is helpful, is it, for independence? | helpful, is it, for independence? europe i helpful, is it, for independence? euro . ., helpful, is it, for independence? euro . ~. ., ., helpful, is it, for independence? euro“ ., ., 4' ., helpful, is it, for independence? euro ., ., ~ ., , helpful, is it, for independence? euro-- ., ., ~ ., helpful, is it, for independence? euro-- ., ., ~' ., , europe i do not know if it is or is not. europe i do not know if it is or is not- alex's _ europe i do not know if it is or is not- alex's is — europe i do not know if it is or is not. alex's is that _ europe i do not know if it is or is not. alex's is that a _ europe i do not know if it is or is not. alex's is that a super - europe i do not know if it is or is i not. alex's is that a super majority will be _ not. alex's is that a super majority will be created. i am not sure if many _ will be created. i am not sure if many people are now arguing that he is very— many people are now arguing that he is very likely to pick up some seats — is very likely to pick up some seats. what i mean that everybody in this debate _ seats. what i mean that everybody in this debate tonight has something to worry about. it is notjust nicola sturgeon. — worry about. it is notjust nicola sturgeon, it is very likely that it will be — sturgeon, it is very likely that it will be conservative seats and union are seats _ will be conservative seats and union are seats that go should he win on the list _ are seats that go should he win on the list of— are seats that go should he win on the list. of course, the very bold thing. _ the list. of course, the very bold thing. that— the list. of course, the very bold thing, that i do not expect douglas ross to— thing, that i do not expect douglas ross to do. — thing, that i do not expect douglas ross to do, but it will be interesting if he does, is to challenge the other unionist leaders to form _ challenge the other unionist leaders to form a _ challenge the other unionist leaders to form a pact with him so that they do not _ to form a pact with him so that they do not all— to form a pact with him so that they do not all stand against one another, _ do not all stand against one another, and thus somehow can retain some _ another, and thus somehow can retain some seats _ another, and thus somehow can retain some seats— some seats. that was going to be my ruestion to some seats. that was going to be my question to you. _ some seats. that was going to be my question to you, pamela. _ some seats. that was going to be my question to you, pamela. the - some seats. that was going to be my| question to you, pamela. the biggest contest will be between douglas ross and and asked sarwar to try to prove their defining characteristics, since they are both unionists. i thought douglas ross had put out some sort of olive branch to anas saraw and said let's form a pact. is that correct? i saraw and said let's form a pact. is that correct?— that correct? i think those of us who are interested _ that correct? i think those of us who are interested in _ that correct? i think those of us who are interested in politics, l that correct? i think those of usj who are interested in politics, if it is an — who are interested in politics, if it is an olive _ who are interested in politics, if it is an olive branch _ who are interested in politics, if it is an olive branch made - who are interested in politics, if it is an olive branch made on. it is an olive branch made on twitter. _ it is an olive branch made on twitter. it _ it is an olive branch made on twitter, it is _ it is an olive branch made on twitter, it is not _ it is an olive branch made on twitter, it is not really- it is an olive branch made on twitter, it is not really an. it is an olive branch made on. twitter, it is not really an olive branch — twitter, it is not really an olive branch any— twitter, it is not really an olive branch. any sort _ twitter, it is not really an olive branch. any sort of— twitter, it is not really an olive. branch. any sort of conversation around — branch. any sort of conversation around that, _ branch. any sort of conversation around that, any— branch. any sort of conversation around that, any deal— branch. any sort of conversation around that, any deal with - branch. any sort of conversation around that, any deal with the l around that, any deal with the iii-between— around that, any deal with the in—between parties— around that, any deal with the in—between parties would - around that, any deal with the in—between parties would be i in—between parties would be something _ in—between parties would be something that _ in—between parties would be something that was - in—between parties would be something that was done - in—between parties would be - something that was done privately before _ something that was done privately before it _ something that was done privately before it was — something that was done privately before it was done _ something that was done privately before it was done publicly. - something that was done privately before it was done publicly. it - something that was done privately before it was done publicly. it is l before it was done publicly. it is definitely— before it was done publicly. it is definitely going _ before it was done publicly. it is definitely going to _ before it was done publicly. it is definitely going to be _ before it was done publicly. it is definitely going to be seen - before it was done publicly. it is definitely going to be seen as i before it was done publicly. it is definitely going to be seen as a| definitely going to be seen as a publicity— definitely going to be seen as a publicity stunt _ definitely going to be seen as a publicity stunt if— definitely going to be seen as a publicity stunt if it _ definitely going to be seen as a publicity stunt if it is _ definitely going to be seen as a publicity stunt if it is being - definitely going to be seen as ai publicity stunt if it is being done through— publicity stunt if it is being done through social— publicity stunt if it is being done through social media. _ publicity stunt if it is being done through social media. it - publicity stunt if it is being done through social media. it will - publicity stunt if it is being done through social media. it will be i publicity stunt if it is being donel through social media. it will be a real shame — through social media. it will be a real shame tonight— through social media. it will be a real shame tonight if— through social media. it will be a real shame tonight if the - through social media. it will be a real shame tonight if the focus . through social media. it will be a real shame tonight if the focus is only on— real shame tonight if the focus is only on independence, _ real shame tonight if the focus is only on independence, if - real shame tonight if the focus is only on independence, if that. only on independence, if that becomes— only on independence, if that becomes the _ only on independence, if that becomes the focus _ only on independence, if that becomes the focus of- only on independence, if that becomes the focus of the - only on independence, if that - becomes the focus of the debate, because _ becomes the focus of the debate, because people _ becomes the focus of the debate, because people want _ becomes the focus of the debate, because people want to _ becomes the focus of the debate, because people want to hear- becomes the focus of the debate, - because people want to hear concrete policies _ because people want to hear concrete policies from — because people want to hear concrete policies from parties _ because people want to hear concrete policies from parties tonight - because people want to hear concrete policies from parties tonight as - because people want to hear concrete policies from parties tonight as to - policies from parties tonight as to how we _ policies from parties tonight as to how we are — policies from parties tonight as to how we are going _ policies from parties tonight as to how we are going to _ policies from parties tonight as to how we are going to get - policies from parties tonight as to how we are going to get through. policies from parties tonight as to . how we are going to get through the next year— how we are going to get through the next year and — how we are going to get through the next year and five _ how we are going to get through the next year and five years _ how we are going to get through the next year and five years of— how we are going to get through the next year and five years of covid - next year and five years of covid recovery, — next year and five years of covid recovery, which _ next year and five years of covid recovery, which will— next year and five years of covid recovery, which will not - next year and five years of covid recovery, which will not be - next year and five years of covid i recovery, which will not be served by being _ recovery, which will not be served by being preoccupied _ recovery, which will not be served by being preoccupied in— recovery, which will not be served by being preoccupied in this - recovery, which will not be served i by being preoccupied in this country on yet _ by being preoccupied in this country on yet another _ by being preoccupied in this country on yet another debate _ by being preoccupied in this country on yet another debate on _ by being preoccupied in this country on yet another debate on the - on yet another debate on the constitution. _ on yet another debate on the constitution. iinfe— on yet another debate on the constitution.— on yet another debate on the constitution. ~ . ., ., ., constitution. we will come to that and much more _ constitution. we will come to that and much more detail— constitution. we will come to that and much more detail in - constitution. we will come to that and much more detail in a - constitution. we will come to that l and much more detail in a moment. let's go to edinburgh, looks like a beautiful night there. glen campbell is waiting for us there. interesting, that venue can normally seat 3000 or 4000 people, right now it will not. in terms of the other issues that will be discussed tonight, the snp has been in power for 14 years now, is nicola sturgeon going to have to defend a record that many of her critics would suggest she has not fulfilled? nicola sturgeon is responsible for all that this could stomach scottish government is responsible for. that includes health and education, law and order in scotland. although i agree that covid recovery will probably be the big theme in tonight's debate, that includes that range of issues. how are the scottish government after this election going to get a grip on the waiting times, the backlogs that have built up in the nhs, how are they going to make sure that children have lost out on part of their education can catch up and get on top of the subjects they are studying? how to are they going to work to rebuild the economy after the pandemic? another big theme in the pandemic? another big theme in the year of the big climate conference, cop26, coming to glasgow, could be the climate emergency and the efforts to cut carbon emissions and try to ensure that the recovery is greener and more sustainable than it might otherwise have been. of course, underlying all of that, the question of independence. the snp and nicola sturgeon think that to take full control over the route out of coronavirus, there should be another referendum. not immediately, but afterthe referendum. not immediately, but after the covid emergency has eased. the greens would go along with that. the greens would go along with that. the other parties think the only thing that should be discussed in the next parliament is recovering from coronavirus. they say constitutional debate as a big distraction from that. we constitutional debate as a big distraction from that. we have seen the manifesto _ distraction from that. we have seen the manifesto pledges. _ distraction from that. we have seen the manifesto pledges. are - distraction from that. we have seen the manifesto pledges. are we - the manifesto pledges. are we expecting any policy announcements this evening? i do expecting any policy announcements this evening?— this evening? i do not think olitical this evening? i do not think political parties _ this evening? i do not think political parties tend - this evening? i do not think political parties tend to - this evening? i do not think. political parties tend to make this evening? i do not think- political parties tend to make major announcements in a leaders' debate like this. you mentioned the panellists tonight are a mixture of those who are experienced performers in this live tv debate environment. the snp's nicola sturgeon and the liberal democrats's willie rennie have done this many times. this is a first test for the other three, the co—leader of the scottish greens, lorna slater, the conservatives douglas ross, only took over in his party's leadership role last summer, and labour�*s anas sarwar, who has only had one month in charge of the scottish labour party. so they are being tested for the first time in this environment. there is lots of opportunity for all the readers here to make an impact, to make an impression on the audience, who in scotland are the people who will decide this election. but there are dangers in all of this as well. if they underperform or, worse still, if there is a big gaffe, that can actually set back their election campaign. we actually set back their election cam airn. ~ , actually set back their election cam-lain,. , ,, actually set back their election camaiun.~ , ,, ., campaign. we will be speaking to you later on. campaign. we will be speaking to you later on- for— campaign. we will be speaking to you later on. for now, _ campaign. we will be speaking to you later on. for now, thank _ campaign. we will be speaking to you later on. for now, thank you - campaign. we will be speaking to you later on. for now, thank you very - later on. for now, thank you very much. let's go back to our panellists. john, if i can come back to you. we were talking about the snp being in power 14 years and their record. when you look at what they are promised in the past, right from the start, they were going to abolish council tax, that still has not happened. how effective has the record been, for example on education, and on health for the snp? , ., ., , ., snp? there is no doubt that education — snp? there is no doubt that education is _ snp? there is no doubt that education is one _ snp? there is no doubt that education is one of- snp? there is no doubt that education is one of the - snp? there is no doubt that| education is one of the areas snp? there is no doubt that - education is one of the areas where nicola sturgeon had a very high ambition. herambition was nicola sturgeon had a very high ambition. her ambition was to significantly reduce the attainment gap, the difference between the performance of children coming from poorer backgrounds from those from better off backgrounds. the trouble is, with that issue, and with a lot of other issues, the pandemic has perhaps rather wiped the slate clean. we have had a reportjust recently saying the scottish government made a bit of progress on reducing the attainment gap, but probably things have got worse again because of the pandemic. that is something that is concerning politicians across the whole of the uk. insofaras politicians across the whole of the uk. insofar as the record of the snp is concerned, there is perhaps a risk, if that is the right word, that everything that happened before march of last year is going to get forgotten because the thing that above all has concerned people has been the pandemic. and that is an area where nicola sturgeon is still regarded as having performed relatively well and certainly much better than borisjohnson. the better than boris johnson. the pandemic better than borisjohnson. the pandemic has in a sense perhaps meant that much of what happened in the first four years of this parliament, will perhaps be forgotten or will be willing to forgive because there was not a great deal politicians could do about reducing the attainment gap, let alone reducing the waiting list, because of the waiting lists throughout the uk have been expanded as a result of the pandemic. i5 throughout the uk have been expanded as a result of the pandemic. is the oint, as a result of the pandemic. is the point. lesley. _ as a result of the pandemic. is the point, lesley, that _ as a result of the pandemic. is the point, lesley, that nicola - as a result of the pandemic. is the| point, lesley, that nicola sturgeon has been a good communicating, certainly in terms of presenting the lockdowns in scotland? when you look at some of the stats in terms of the numbers, the numbers who developed coronavirus in care homes, she did not perform as well as perhaps her supporters would have thought, even though england was ahead overall in terms of the numbers. that though england was ahead overall in terms of the numbers.— terms of the numbers. that is one wa of terms of the numbers. that is one way of looking _ terms of the numbers. that is one way of looking at _ terms of the numbers. that is one way of looking at it. _ terms of the numbers. that is one way of looking at it. i _ terms of the numbers. that is one way of looking at it. i think - terms of the numbers. that is one way of looking at it. i think what i way of looking at it. i think what people _ way of looking at it. i think what people have got from the constancy of nicola _ people have got from the constancy of nicola sturgeon at the microphone every— of nicola sturgeon at the microphone every lunchtime, doing these covid briefings. _ every lunchtime, doing these covid briefings, is a sense of constance, which _ briefings, is a sense of constance, which the — briefings, is a sense of constance, which the did not see any boris johnson — which the did not see any boris johnson a _ which the did not see any boris johnson. a caution that has generally been picking up what the scientists— generally been picking up what the scientists say and running with it. in scientists say and running with it. in fact, _ scientists say and running with it. in fact, running hand—in—hand with that _ in fact, running hand—in—hand with that and — in fact, running hand—in—hand with that and a — in fact, running hand—in—hand with that. and a kind of coherence in the arguments— that. and a kind of coherence in the arguments that have been put to people _ arguments that have been put to people that means you can roughly work out _ people that means you can roughly work out where you should be in contrast — work out where you should be in contrast to — work out where you should be in contrast to what seems to be a lot of chopping and changing south of the border, to be blunt. everybody has had _ the border, to be blunt. everybody has had the chance to compare and contrast _ has had the chance to compare and contrast. that is due south of the border— contrast. that is due south of the border as— contrast. that is due south of the border as well. some statistics suggested that many people south of the border would quite like to see nicola _ the border would quite like to see nicola sturgeon running the show instead _ nicola sturgeon running the show instead of borisjohnson nicola sturgeon running the show instead of boris johnson at one stage — instead of boris johnson at one stage it — instead of boris johnson at one stage. it is notjust a thing of she could _ stage. it is notjust a thing of she could manage to string a sentence together, — could manage to string a sentence together, there is actually a kind of coherence there in the policy which _ of coherence there in the policy which leaves people with more assurance that if there was something wrong, we would be told. and if— something wrong, we would be told. and if we _ something wrong, we would be told. and if we were on the wrong track, we would _ and if we were on the wrong track, we would know. we are doing things cautiously— we would know. we are doing things cautiously in ways that seem to fit what _ cautiously in ways that seem to fit what the _ cautiously in ways that seem to fit what the scientists want. the cautiously in ways that seem to fit what the scientists want.- cautiously in ways that seem to fit what the scientists want. the data i was referring _ what the scientists want. the data i was referring to _ what the scientists want. the data i was referring to was _ what the scientists want. the data i was referring to was the _ what the scientists want. the data i was referring to was the fact - what the scientists want. the data i was referring to was the fact that i was referring to was the fact that at one stage england had 100 per 100,000 deaths, and scotland, which appear to be doing much better, had 86. in terms of that weak table of how badly countries were doing, scotland was only... england was first on scotland was fifth. we were discussing the constitutional issue, of course three parties do not want this to dominate the elections this year, but how of the three unionist party is going to distinguish themselves, in your view, and what can they do to slow that tied that certainly, untila can they do to slow that tied that certainly, until a few months ago, showed the polls were increasingly pro—independence? i showed the polls were increasingly pro-independence?— showed the polls were increasingly pro-independence? i would disagree, first of all, that _ pro-independence? i would disagree, first of all, that it _ pro-independence? i would disagree, first of all, that it is _ pro-independence? i would disagree, first of all, that it is three _ first of all, that it is three parties _ first of all, that it is three parties i_ first of all, that it is three parties. i think— first of all, that it is three parties. i think we - first of all, that it is three parties. i think we have i first of all, that it is three i parties. i think we have seen first of all, that it is three - parties. i think we have seen a change — parties. i think we have seen a change from _ parties. i think we have seen a change from the _ parties. i think we have seen a change from the scottish - change from the scottish conservative _ change from the scottish conservative party, - change from the scottish conservative party, whol change from the scottish i conservative party, who are change from the scottish _ conservative party, who are talking about _ conservative party, who are talking about the _ conservative party, who are talking about the union. _ conservative party, who are talking about the union. they _ conservative party, who are talking about the union. they want - conservative party, who are talking about the union. they want to - conservative party, who are talking | about the union. they want to show their credentials— about the union. they want to show their credentials as _ about the union. they want to show their credentials as being _ about the union. they want to show their credentials as being the - about the union. they want to show their credentials as being the partyl their credentials as being the party of the _ their credentials as being the party of the union — their credentials as being the party of the union. it _ their credentials as being the party of the union. it worked _ their credentials as being the party of the union. it worked for- their credentials as being the party of the union. it worked for them i their credentials as being the party of the union. it worked for them in 2016— of the union. it worked for them in 2016 and _ of the union. it worked for them in 2016 and it — of the union. it worked for them in 2016 and it looks _ of the union. it worked for them in 2016 and it looks like _ of the union. it worked for them in 2016 and it looks like they - of the union. it worked for them in 2016 and it looks like they are - 2016 and it looks like they are betting — 2016 and it looks like they are betting on— 2016 and it looks like they are betting on it _ 2016 and it looks like they are betting on it working - 2016 and it looks like they are betting on it working for- 2016 and it looks like they are betting on it working for them 2016 and it looks like they are - betting on it working for them again this time _ betting on it working for them again this time in— betting on it working for them again this time. in contrast, _ betting on it working for them again this time. in contrast, we _ betting on it working for them again this time. in contrast, we will- betting on it working for them again this time. in contrast, we will see i this time. in contrast, we will see labour's — this time. in contrast, we will see labour's leader— this time. in contrast, we will see labour's leader anas _ this time. in contrast, we will see labour's leader anas sarwar, - this time. in contrast, we will see labour's leader anas sarwar, i. this time. in contrast, we will see i labour's leader anas sarwar, i think you will— labour's leader anas sarwar, i think you will be — labour's leader anas sarwar, i think you will be really— labour's leader anas sarwar, i think you will be really pushing _ labour's leader anas sarwar, i think you will be really pushing on - labour's leader anas sarwar, i think you will be really pushing on a - you will be really pushing on a covid — you will be really pushing on a covid recovery _ you will be really pushing on a covid recovery plan _ you will be really pushing on a covid recovery plan tonight. you will be really pushing on a l covid recovery plan tonight and trying _ covid recovery plan tonight and trying to— covid recovery plan tonight and trying to hope _ covid recovery plan tonight and trying to hope that _ covid recovery plan tonight and trying to hope that the - covid recovery plan tonight and - trying to hope that the government, the snp _ trying to hope that the government, the snp government, _ trying to hope that the government, the snp government, to _ trying to hope that the government, the snp government, to account- trying to hope that the government, the snp government, to account ofl the snp government, to account of their decisions— the snp government, to account of their decisions over— the snp government, to account of their decisions over the _ the snp government, to account of their decisions over the last- the snp government, to account of their decisions over the last five . their decisions over the last five years _ their decisions over the last five years the — their decisions over the last five years. the decisions _ their decisions over the last five years. the decisions on - their decisions over the last five years. the decisions on covid i their decisions over the last five i years. the decisions on covid and before _ years. the decisions on covid and before that, — years. the decisions on covid and before that, on _ years. the decisions on covid and before that, on education - years. the decisions on covid and before that, on education and - years. the decisions on covid and i before that, on education and public services _ before that, on education and public services in— before that, on education and public services. in terms _ before that, on education and public services. in terms of _ before that, on education and public services. in terms of the _ before that, on education and public services. in terms of the liberal- services. in terms of the liberal democrats. _ services. in terms of the liberal democrats, that— services. in terms of the liberal democrats, that remains- services. in terms of the liberal democrats, that remains to - services. in terms of the liberal democrats, that remains to bel services. in terms of the liberal- democrats, that remains to be seen. that will— democrats, that remains to be seen. that will be _ democrats, that remains to be seen. that will be pretty _ democrats, that remains to be seen. that will be pretty similar— democrats, that remains to be seen. that will be pretty similar to - democrats, that remains to be seen. that will be pretty similar to the - that will be pretty similar to the labour— that will be pretty similar to the labour party— that will be pretty similar to the labour party tonight. _ that will be pretty similar to the labour party tonight.— that will be pretty similar to the labour party tonight. lesley, had scotland had _ labour party tonight. lesley, had scotland had independence - labour party tonight. lesley, had scotland had independence and l labour party tonight. lesley, had i scotland had independence and how labour party tonight. lesley, had - scotland had independence and how to deal with the pandemic, would it have been equipped economically to have been equipped economically to have done so? we have been equipped economically to have done so?— have done so? we would be in a situation. _ have done so? we would be in a situation, perhaps, _ have done so? we would be in a situation, perhaps, in— have done so? we would be in a situation, perhaps, in between i have done so? we would be in a - situation, perhaps, in between where we are _ situation, perhaps, in between where we are now. — situation, perhaps, in between where we are now, which is still a part of the united — we are now, which is still a part of the united kingdom, where the economy— the united kingdom, where the economy is very governed by the weavers— economy is very governed by the weavers that are in the hands of westminster. and those of small nordic— westminster. and those of small nordic neighbours, all of whom have a far lower— nordic neighbours, all of whom have a far lower incidence of the disease, _ a far lower incidence of the disease, have had really very low death— disease, have had really very low death rates. norway and finland, it has been _ death rates. norway and finland, it has been between 400 and 500 tests with the _ has been between 400 and 500 tests with the same population. they have all had _ with the same population. they have all had different versions of furlough schemes, that is not unique to britain _ furlough schemes, that is not unique to britain, so it is not the case that— to britain, so it is not the case that somehow if scotland was going its own _ that somehow if scotland was going its own way, it would be somehow bereft _ its own way, it would be somehow bereft we — its own way, it would be somehow bereft. we have had to fall back in britain _ bereft. we have had to fall back in britain on — bereft. we have had to fall back in britain on the lowest unemployment benefit _ britain on the lowest unemployment benefit rate practically in europe and the — benefit rate practically in europe and the second lowest pension in the developed _ and the second lowest pension in the developed world. the underpinnings of our— developed world. the underpinnings of our system have been shown up through— of our system have been shown up through the whole of covid and we would _ through the whole of covid and we would hope, although it might not have happened this quickly, to be rectifying — have happened this quickly, to be rectifying that as a kind of mitigations that were put in place already— mitigations that were put in place already in— mitigations that were put in place already in control of welfare have shown _ already in control of welfare have shown. ~ ., ., ., ., shown. would you have had a norwegian — shown. would you have had a norwegian sovereign - shown. would you have had a norwegian sovereign fund - shown. would you have had a norwegian sovereign fund in l shown. would you have had a i norwegian sovereign fund in the shown. would you have had a - norwegian sovereign fund in the way they have because that money has been spent, hasn't it, and the price of oil has dropped? the been spent, hasn't it, and the price of oil has dropped?— of oil has dropped? the finnish --eole of oil has dropped? the finnish people have — of oil has dropped? the finnish people have not _ of oil has dropped? the finnish people have not got _ of oil has dropped? the finnish people have not got a - of oil has dropped? the finnish | people have not got a sovereign fund _ people have not got a sovereign fund. there are many countries that have done _ fund. there are many countries that have done well to have done something with the oil wealth that margaret thatcher frittered away. that boat — margaret thatcher frittered away. that boat probably has passed. the next boat _ that boat probably has passed. the next boat is arriving and that is the renewables explosion, which scotland — the renewables explosion, which scotland is equally well— placed to benefit _ scotland is equally well— placed to benefit from. but we do not control energy _ benefit from. but we do not control energy it _ benefit from. but we do not control energy it is— benefit from. but we do not control energy. it is completely reserved to westminster. that is another example of how, _ westminster. that is another example of how. if— westminster. that is another example of how, if you want to restart our economy, — of how, if you want to restart our economy, you need have all the levers _ economy, you need have all the levers currently that are in the hands — levers currently that are in the hands of — levers currently that are in the hands of westminster. just levers currently that are in the hands of westminster.- levers currently that are in the hands of westminster. just a final thou . ht hands of westminster. just a final thought before _ hands of westminster. just a final thought before the _ hands of westminster. just a final thought before the debate - hands of westminster. just a final thought before the debate starts. | hands of westminster. just a final. thought before the debate starts. in terms of the way opinion polls are changing about independence, certainly in the last perhaps a month or so,? we certainly in the last perhaps a month or so,?— certainly in the last perhaps a month or so,? certainly in the last perhaps a month orso,?~ . , :: month or so,? we are basically 50 50. in month or so,? we are basically 50 50- in doing _ month or so,? we are basically 50 50. in doing the _ month or so,? we are basically 50 50. in doing the heat _ month or so,? we are basically 50 50. in doing the heat of _ month or so,? we are basically 50 50. in doing the heat of the - 50. in doing the heat of the pandemic, it looked as though support for independence was rising. of the fact that a group of voters of the fact that a group of voters who voted no in 2014 it came to the conclusion that perhaps scotland would have handled the pandemic better as an independent country. that made seems to have fallen back a bit. the truth is this country is split down the middle about how it should be governed. i think that is going to be an important

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