we need to get every american fully vaccinated, including the booster shot. so there's no excuse, no excuse for anyone being unvaccinated. this continues to be a pandemic of the unvaccinated. so we gotta make more progress. the u. k has recorded more than 200000 daily karone of ours cases for the 1st time. foreign minister boris johnston says they'll be no new restrictions for now. but warned of a challenging few weeks ahead. you joe has become the 2nd chinese city to be put into the total lockdown after reports of new corona, virus cases. the restrictions are similar to those imposed for the past 2 weeks in the industrial hub of she and the main suspect of the assassination of haiti's. president juvenile moisture as appeared in u. s. federal court for the 1st time, 43 year old, former columbia military officer mario palacios, was extradited from panama. he's the 1st to face criminal charges in the july murder, which triggered a political crisis in haiti. a court in canada has ordered iran to pay $84000000.00 to the families of those killed in the downing of a plane. in 2020 the runs military shot down a ukrainian passenger plane, killing all 176 people on board. many of those on board were canadian citizen, so had residency in canada. kaz exxon's president says he's imposing price controls on gas and diesel for the next 6 months. they have to tear gas and stung grenades were used against protest as an al massey, a statement from president cassim drama took. i have says he's accepted his government's resignation, demonstrations spread to the largest city of al massey at the beginning 2 days ago in the town of tion. i was then when the fuel costs 1st spiked. oh, those were headline news for you here on houses here are coming up, brought off to the stream, which is next. ah ah ah ah ah, i as on the okay to day on the street, the story of nigerian spinning bronze is limited by the british in 1897 and now found in museums around the world. you can see some of these cultural trifles behind me. you're always made out of bronze, sometimes metal, or wood, or ivory, and they came from the kingdom opening. let me show you a maps you can see where the actually is. the southern part of nigeria is where the original kingdom opening is. many cities there. see that little red dot, and this is in southern nigeria, so we're not talking about the republic opening, but the kingdom of the 9. now we have that, right? let's get the debate started. we often hear the idea that restitution is an attack upon museums that this is iconoclasm. grows in fact restitution is already a part of the normal operation of museums in america and europe in the cases of nazi lutes, and in the cases of indigenous ancestral human remains. for the very different historical circumstances of african objects that were taken unto colonialism. increasingly the conversation is happening in between audience isn't trustees and characters who think it's time that this issue is addressed. so let's get this conversation started with, i guess joining us. we have a notes here we have barnaby. we have neil, it is good to see you gentlemen. in o t. i introduce yourself to our stream audience and your connection to the been bronzes early in the year with all just based in nigeria, the new city. i've been working with the government on a legacy research on trust to get back to bronze. he's on john thomas young. what's offered to us, which was being designed by a j o. really barker brown loose. thank we only focus on hostile i. it's a long story. no t o we get back to it in just a moment. barnaby. nice to have you here on the stream. tell everybody your connection to the beneath bronzes. i'm a journalist and author, i was a b, b, c correspondent in nigeria many years ago. and i've just written a book called loot britain and the been in bronze is in which i tell the tale of how the bronze is were made in that west african kingdom or how and why the british took them in 18. 97. what happened to them since, and the very current active debate, which we're talking about this evening, what should happen to them now? and i know you've been making headlines around the world. you are a hot topic in the out. well, tell our audience, why. and sam neil curtis, i'm head of museums and special collections at the university of aberdeen in scotland. and yes, we're at the university and i hope that it would return my been in bronze about 4 weeks ago. no. no. was purchased by the inverse in 1957. yet to have neil bonner, the, an anal da and also you audience watching right now on youtube. you can jumping to the comics section to be part of today's program in o t. i did a very, very simple explanation of what the benign bronze is actually, ah, but there's a much deeper cultural significance as somebody who comes from adam state. how would you explain what these striking objects actually truly mean respond to her. oh symbol or contra heritage on the objects were made to papa made all the reasons. oh personal. what was his, what origin us, and someone made for keeping memory or story or to in our stories on history and all those we made more into durham office on so the park to go because the legal history or heritage symbol all of our civilization until lot of the wife own years from now when we, i'm just going to show some of the pictures that are in your book lute and it starts off with this campaign or to go to benign city because the brit sworn to do trade with the oboe, the king and, and the over is not that keen on doing so. so we, we start off with what is the team who went out to benign city? can you talk us through some of these pictures and, and why they're important. these are some of the senior officers of the punitive expedition. they're sitting on board a boat in liverpool, and they're on their way to bed in the city, the british empire. at that time, the pre eminent global power able to assemble for very quickly they bring in ships from cape town, from malta, from across the globe. they march into banding city. they believe that the, the king of been in city, the british say, has not been observing the terms of an earlier treaty, which he had been co asked probably into, into agreeing to some years earlier. and they raise, been in prison to the ground. they have an overwhelming military force. they have the maximum gun, which is a devastating weapon and the bed. and i, a proud empire replaced the cultural achievement for many hundreds of years has, has no chance here. you can see british offices in the orbit pilots in the courtyard, and this is just some of the loose, which they took. as you say, the batman bronzes. but of course, great piles of tusks as well. these are, i suppose, iconic, i suppose, infamous at images, and they help cap show why the looting of bennett city has become emblematic of the whole question of colonial due to dog. because the pending bronzes were so splendid and because the manner in which they were taken was so agree just so relatively recent and so well documented neil until quite recently of your university had a been in bonds that you are. you are planning on keeping. it was part of your collection and that changed. can you tell us that story? why it changed? i think this is something that's been happening over many years and, and gradually mean obviously barely got on to the 1990 s was arguing for returned. any problems is so it's not something that's new. and i think for me from the 2 thousands, we started being involved and re fax creation to north america, australia, new zealand. and i think was become so clear it is that instead of seeing these things as things are about relationships that are about people, the matter tremendously to people from whom they were collected. um, so i think we started seeing our collections slightly differently. seeing it as a being about relationships and about relationships in the present as much as the past that we want to address that so, so we, we realize that, you know, we, we had this, this one been in bronze that was, was bought by the university in the 1950 s as an example of african art. i'm not to was on display in 960. celebrate the independence of nigeria. but the more we thought about it more, we realized that yes, we might have had legal title to really given the way in which the binding city was destroyed. and the material was looted, we really couldn't say that we had model title. so it really clashed with the university's values of being international, being inclusive, being respectful. and so out of that really think very clearly, very logically came the feeling that we should return was when i saw some thoughts from, from, from a through or if you, with a question, this is for, for it seems obvious. i should be much closer to that kind of origin and i can't respond. well, yes, come home so we can tell our stories to our people working, deprived of access to them for hundreds of years ago. crypto mary, mary, a says, and i'm going to get this one to you now. why not set up infrastructure of the countries help invest in the preservation of their own treasures, their own culture. that's all i think the know that's very important, that people should be able to see their own culture. and i think, you know, there are advantages having things elsewhere in the world. but i think the important thing is that the power, the decision to decide what happens lives with the people who these things belong to. i am picking up, hold on one more thing here. barnaby. i'm going to share this with you. this is from add them up, they, if they all return, they will not be. we don't have adequate iran museum. so adam or is nigeria, and we are not known for maintaining and preserving historical artifacts. this is something you look into. you went to benign city. what did you find? well, i would say that the debate about the problems within nigerian museums is carried out with much more kanda and understanding within nigeria. ready itself than it is in europe. and this is an important point. and the all could fax for nigeria in this story, nigerian museums already have a very fine collection of band and bronzes. if you go to the national museum and labels. unfortunately, not many of them are on display and not many people, illegals go and see them. having said that, i think there is now a golden opportunity to make things better and to repair about situation. and in not is the right man. you should be 250 right now. there is assembled something of the, of the dream team, a governor, governor classic. he has really committed a star architect naughty, has told use of david jai and the, the international support, the international sympathy is. yeah. so this is a golden opportunity for nigerians on the ground to get it right. and that is indicative of how the world is changing. if you like, the fate of the bed and bronzes will be determined as much by the acts of ki nigerian players as the consciences of western curators. and that is something very important to say. and actually, i'm just looking at your picture review and david azure, i who as designed. i'm an extraordinary buildings around the world. having a discussion, if i was flying the war here, what, what i hear and talking about the significance of the mask which is in position is going to intrude significance. don't explain how important the history of mental thinking don't get anything from the 16th century symbol of scribing on the mental civilization. i'm wondering here because there is a real conversation that is happening about well, if we give the veney bounces back to nigeria, you don't have the resources to look after them. look after them. that happened instances where a lot of money was spent getting them back from different parts of europe between the 950. and they ended up back in europe again a know to how do you reassure people, can you? but that won't happen again. or, you know, no, it happened again because now i plan in place to build a global young adult, ms young and this is being built on an independent trust legacy was originally trust which had the key stakeholder trust. are the real panels of been in the government and how the n c m n national commission on this one that's on the board of the trustees. this legacy research on trust is an independent trust structure, government, which will respond and build museum, and show that it is built into all scanners. it's been designed by j was money right now. so you can show about the safety of the show and there will be a displayed on present according to the best practice. not okay. i mean, it's funny were looted and so they were brought to the red zone in, in, in the national museum there for anybody to see just this afternoon. i went to the vault in was young and i saw runs is i read and all being sold probably was thing is with developing to walk lawson's young here in been in the dorm is almost never going to us. we drill, receive kick on display. there's a to parks, according to law, best practice. so there's no fear of this the gotten of the government or go, no varsity of and it is very focused on this guy. the legacy was i was on trust. i is an independent trust with chavez, no less sas, you have to get the band name. bronze is back to as well, personal them. so that involves some negotiation. i want to t knew about negotiation that haven't listen to this comment festival and i just come off the back of it immediately. i mean to, from your take days, a new dynamic, both in the global south and in the global north, former colonies are strengthening them. you seem infrastructure, and they are developing policies to retrieve objects dead for lost involuntarily during the colonial era. former colonizers, on the other hand, are slowly moving to a point where they are willing to re betsy aid such object. now the challenges to whether former colonies and former colonizers are able to reduce them, which will distrust and to do dialogue on the issue. on an equivalent level, only den, some of the injustice committed in the colonial era can be undone. now, i think what's really important is this discussion was coming together the consensus it's being built. and i think in a way, i feel that we've played a part in building that collaboration with the partners that are not here. he's been talking about, i think is really important. we don't see this as a sort of oppositional thing. that it's something where we, you know, we come in to with good intent and then we can, we can achieve good things. i will talk to all british rules and we ask them if they would be part of this program. barnaby, they absent us, the statement is sad, it's a very long statement, but let's have a look at it. and then i'll just pull out a couple of things that really struck us here on the stream. so i put that up on the screen. everybody say you can actually see that and, and this is where the british museum are coming from. are they? they have some difficulty which i know you, you'll be able to explain. but they say we believe the strength of the british museum collection resides in its breadth and depth, allowing millions of visitors and understanding of the coaches of the world and how they connect over time, where the thing trade migration conquest or peaceful exchange will talk about conquest right ear, so barnaby, that sounds to me like they're not really going to give the name bronze is to this beautiful museum that will happen in the southern part of nigeria. that doesn't sound to me like they're going to hand them over. what did you find when you went there to talk to them about this? wow, there's a lot i could say about the british museum. i think when i started out on this project i, i felt like a lot of people that it was that a very, you know, self assured, possibly even our current institution which didn't feel it had to on. so for itself and towards the end i came see it instead is as a rather divided institution, an institution which is almost paralyzed by this problem and doesn't quite know what to say, and hence it's not on typical that they've given you a press release and they haven't appeared in this program is the british museum does have a story to tell. it doesn't always exceed in getting it across. they are constrained in a way that needs to see in aberdeen for example, is not. there is something called a british museum act of 1963, which makes it impossible for the british museum to d. accession that you didn't speak for the handover in a permanent way. items from its collection. with a few exceptions, which, which don hicks mentioned at the beginning of the program to do not feel and not see taken luton human body parts. in general terms, it's very difficult for the british museum to do things back forever without a change to the law, and that would require an act of parliament difficult to see this current, british conservative government a going down that route the british museum does have a lot of leeway, however, over loans and within the bending dialogue group, which is a group of museums which are talking about this thing. they've indicated a willingness to lead back a specified number of bed in bronze is and they haven't, they haven't even stipulated which ones within their collection. they haven't, they haven't ruled out any objects, but there is a potential car crash for the british museum. i have to say, which is the only other museums in the bed in dialogue group. it's not inconceivable that they will give back their bed and bronzes and the british museum will end up loaning. but it's been a bronson now that we're loaning su. yes, he for his art has been stolen, looted and listening to having to negotiate, getting it back. how do you feel about that? i think this is why i'm and the universities decision was for an unconditional return. we didn't have moral title, so i think our decision rate is straight forward. i think there's one thing i would take out museum statement i think is interesting, which is about this ability of objects to tell stories about connections of people around the world. i think it would be really good if we were able to lend scottish things to finding city so that that, that your mutual lender can go on. i think it might be nice if we could, but maybe some time borrow some bending bronze is from from bending city. and i think there's a, there could be a lot more flow between institutions rather than focusing too much on, on ownership. but i think in this case, for the decision of ownership was quite simple. and i told you that once my, my, my jaw dropped when you were suggesting an exchange of bidding bronze. this is some of the greatest out that you has ever produced. what were you suggesting that exchange should be and i to go ahead no. what i was saying was that this box belongs to a loss. so imperative. another issue that's the owner of ours should be clear as published. they belong to us. now when the one issue has been established and occupied, give it back to us. then like nila said, we can have this exchange programs where we log all onto parks too, and it will ms young and then also learn console or to also show in a more, you know, system southerners publish within the museum sister. well, we are going to start learning items loan to pass. you know, so is to be clear, the ownership of this artifact belong to us and then we can move them to you and also ask for walks will belong to you to belong to ross. sure. and on resumes here, been arrow and swelling. all our follow right now, i want to visit one more place. and this is the way we can do it. so digitally, the a digital painting project because a lot of creative thoughts about how do we share our arts around the world universally. and this is one way have a look, have allison this project designed to create an online catalogue that connects. benito newton is in a to serving and globally circulated between it in at $7.19. this project whoop! and it was have an overview of d. no, hold on just a little in, in, in it, in a to 7. the 7 is not a substitute for patricia, but again, it's one of the stairs that has been taken did duration to ensure interstitial now additional been objects. sentiment i've got the sa kinley short amount of time left in this program, but i want to ask you just briefly in a thoughts why you think will smoothly for the return of the ban influences is happening right now. neil, go ahead. i think there's lots things, i think many, many museum curators are no thinking, as i say about music objects as relationships. so there's been a huge change in the people working in museums. i think there are many, there's much more thinking about the history of collections and much more willingness to, to listen to the people associated with objects. so i think the world has shifted in many different ways, and i think we're coming together as barney's barnaby said to sort of golden moment . i me, i've got 45 seconds. i know you don't need that long. go ahead. was this movement happening now? while points embrace specific political things, president, macro france went to west africa in 2017. he made a re exciting and unexpected speech saying this cannot carry on. a report came out which pertain to french museums, but it sent shock waves across british and german museums. and then even more recently, black lives matters, it exploded in the united states. in the summer of 2020, there was about police brutality in europe. it seems to be all about the colonial legacy. and that's a very critical thinking. what, where for all of the benign funds is all around the world by, along to nigeria, what year will that be? make a prediction? oh, oh, say between now and 2024. 02 years. ah, for sure. mm hm. and they also altima ha, i love that and no t. bon jovi, neil you chewers. thank you so much for being part of this conversation. now, you know about the been in bronze, if you will see headlines or of the time about them. have a look here on my laptop. you may not be out to see them in person, but you can absolutely visit digital benign, reconnecting, royal art, treasures. and so watching everybody. and that will be available next year. i thought everybody see you next time of the stream. ah, african story from african perspective, most of them are never bought more than that. it's not gonna go machine because of the voice of the machine. i feel like in, i mean it's short documentary spike until make is from kenya. he raised almost ident, dial into something that he's about pricing and ivory coast colors. i lived here and scrap yet and model africa direct on. i'll just hear a lot of the stories that we cover heidi complex, so it's very important that we make them as understandable as we can. as al jazeera correspondence, that's what we strive to do. talk to, i was just a wild alarm. we listen. design is, are making serious efforts in order to in t and to stop the 10. no, because we meet with global news news about the store based on how to proceed with . mm pool. ah, i know we're all tired and frustrated about the pandemic. these coming weeks are going to be challenging. please wear your mask in public to protect yourself with really get through this. another plea from the u. s. president for americans to get vaccinated, of where mosques to fight soaring corona virus infections. ah, a good. this is al jazeera alive from doha. also coming up tennis.

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