but testing and other services are getting overwhelmed. one in for medical centers with an i c u, a is reporting that they are 95 percent or more full and that 1000000 probably understates what's going on here. the 1000000 people testing positive on one day. the problem is that most people can't get a test, so there are people walking around who don't know if they're contagious or not. and that 1000000 number that's about double what it was just 4 days ago. so the president has to address this testing problem that we have in the united states. i was just at 2 drug stores were the, you know, neither of them had any more of those self tests. left. india has imposed a weekend curfew in the capital, new delhi, after the city reported the highest curve at 19 infection numbers in months. and he's chief minister in among almost 5 and a half 1000 people who tested positive on tuesday a day earlier, he was speaking at an election rally, but few people were wearing masks, including himself. the new measures mean non essential movement in the city is banned. experts believe the rise is due to the on the crone buried shooting the security forces have again fired tig us at demonstrators rally against the military of the countries. political crisis deepens. thousands of people gathered in cartoon under man, and she done to denounce the armies, power grub in october. the demising, the military play, no part in any future government approaches comes 2 days after a delicate dog resigned as a country civilian prime minister saying the political deadlocks was threatening to don. survival, this is up for is to stay with us and use continues after the stream, which is looking at where the western museums should return than any bronze is acting. andrea i for now. ah, i thought i as in the ok to day on the stream, the story of nigeria is benign. bronze is limited by the british in $1897.00, and now founding museums around the world. you can see some of these cultural treasures behind me. not always made out of bronze, sometimes metal, or wood, or ivory. and they came from the kingdom opening. let me show you a maps you can see where the actually is. the southern part of nigeria is where the original kingdom opening is. many cities there. see that little red dot, and this is in southern nigeria, so we're not talking about the republic opening, but the kingdom of the 9. now we have that, right? let's get the debate started. we often hear the idea that restitution is an attack upon museums that this is iconoclasm, or as in fact restitution is already a part of the normal operation of museums in america and europe in the cases of nazi lutes, and did the cases of indigenous ancestral human remains for the very different historical circumstances of africa and objects that were taken unto colonialism. increasingly, the conversation is happening in between audiences and trustees and arises who think it's time that this issue is addressed. so let's get this conversation started with i guess, doing as we have a notes here we have barnaby. we have neil, it is good to see you gentlemen. in ot i introduce yourself to our stream audience and your connection to the pin bronzes. with all an interest based in nigeria in city. i've been working with the government a rule, the legacy research on trust to jennifer brawley's on the, on a us which was being designed by a j o. rober brown loose bank really focused on hostile i. it's a long story. no t o we get back to it in just a moment. barnaby. nice to have he here on the stream. tell everybody your connection to the been bronzes. i'm a journalist and author i was a b, b, c correspondent in nigeria many years ago. and i've just written a book called loot britain and the been in bronze is in which i tell the tale of how the bronzes were made in that west african kingdom or how and why the british took them in 18. 97. what happened to them? since and the very current active debate, which we talked about this evening, what should happen to them now? and i know you've been making headlines around the world. you are a hot topic in the out. well, tell our audience why. and sam neil curtis, i'm head of museums and special collections of the university of aberdeen in scotland. and yes, we're at the university and i hope that it would return my been in bronze about 4 weeks ago. no. no was purchased by the inverse in 1957. yet to have nail barnaby and in o t. i and also you audience watching right now on youtube. you can jump into the comics section to be part of today's program in o t. i did a very, very simple explanation of what the benign bronze is actually, ah, but there is a much deeper cultural significance as somebody who comes from adam state. how would you explain what these striking objects actually truly mean? well, respond to her. oh, symbol of our cultural heritage on the objects were made to cover maybe all reasons or personal which was is what we're in the old house. and some were made for keeping memory or story or telling us to read them history. and although we made boy 2 girls, and so the to got to go because they thought history or heritage symbol all of our civilization just lost it the way own years from now on me, i'm just going to show some of the pictures they are in your book lit and it starts off with this campaign and to go to benign city because the brit sworn to do trade with the oboe the king and, and the over is not that keen on doing so. so we, we start off with, what is the team who went out to begin city? can you talk us through some of these pictures and, and why they're important? these are some of the senior officers of the punitive expedition. they're sitting on board a boat in liverpool, and they're on their way to bed in the city, the british empire. at that time, the pre eminent global power able to assemble a for very quickly they bring in ships from cape town, from malta, from across the globe. they march into the city, they believe that the, the king of benning city, the british say, has not been observing the terms of an earlier treaty, which he had been co asked probably into, into agreeing to some years earlier. and they raise, been in each of the ground, they have an overwhelming military force. they have the maxim gone, which is a devastating weapon and the bed empire, a proud empire replaced the cultural achievement for many hundreds of years has, has no chance here. you can see british offices in the orbit palace in the courtyard, and this is just some of the lute which they took, as you say, the banding bronze is. but of course, great piles of tasks as well. these are, i suppose, iconic, i suppose, infamous images. and they help capture why the looting of bennett city has become emblematic of the whole question of colonial due to dog. because the pending bronzes were so splendid and because the manner in which they were taken was agree just so relatively recent and so well documented. now until quite recently, of your university had a been in bonds that you are. you are planning on keeping. it was part of your collection and that changed. can you tell us that story? why it changed? i think this is something that's been happening over many years and, and gradually, i mean, obviously barely got on to the 1000 ninety's was arguing for the return of any problems is. so it's not something that's new. and i think for me from the 2 thousands, we started being involved and re fax creation to north america and healing. and i think was become so clear as that instead of seeing these things as things are by relationships that are about people, the matter tremendously to people from whom they were collected. um, so i think we started seeing our collections slightly differently. seeing it as a being about relationships and about relationships and the present as much as the past that we wanted to address that so, so we, we realize that, you know, we, we had this, this one been in bronze that was, was bought by the university in the 1950 s as an example of african art. i'm not to was on display in 960. celebrate the independence of nigeria. but the more we thought about it more, we realized that yes, we might have had legal title to really given the way in which the pending city was destroyed. and the material was looted, we really couldn't say that we had model title. so it really clashed with the, the university's values of being international, being inclusive, being respectful. and so out of that really think very clearly, very logically came the feeling that we should return was a through or if you with a question, this is for, for it seems obvious. i should be much closer to that kind of origin. and i response or to come home so we can tell our stories to our people working, deprived of access to them for hundreds of years ago. crypto mary, mary, a says, and i'm going to get this one to you now. why not set up infrastructure for countries help invest in the preservation of their own treasures, their own culture? that's all i think the know that's very important, that people should be able to see their own culture. and i think, you know, there are advantages having things elsewhere in the world, but i think the important. busy thing is that the power, the decision to decide what happens lives with the people who these things belong to. i am picking up, hold on one more thing here. barnaby, i'm going to share this is you, this is from add them up. they, if they all return, they will not be present. we don't have adequate iran museum. so adam are, is nigeria, and we are not known for maintaining and preserving historical artifacts. this is something you look into. you went to benito city. what did you find? well, i would say that the debate about the problems within nigeria museums is carried out with much more kanda and understanding within nigeria itself than it is in europe. and this is an important point. and the all could fax for nigeria in this story, nigerian museums already have a very fine collection of band and bronzes. if you go to the national museum and labels, unfortunately not many of them are on display. and not many people. illegals, go and see them. having said that, i think there is now a golden opportunity to make things better and to repair about situation than in not is the right man. you should be done in 15 right now. there is assembled something of the, of the dream team, a governor godwin obaskey who's really committed a star architect is naughty, has told use of david jai and the, the international support, the international sympathy is. yeah. so this is a golden opportunity for nigerians on the ground to get it right. and that is indicative of how the world is changing. if you like, the fate of the been in bronze is, will be determined as much by the act of key nigerian as, as the consciences of western curators. and that is something very important to say that he is looking at here. read your picture with you and a david address and who as design so extraordinary buildings around the well having a discussion, if i saw a fly in the war here, what, what i hear or hear we're talking about the significance will be your mask the combo. where, you know, which is in the british museum, are going to be shown in through the significance of what i've done. explain how important his job is developmental clinic and on to the beginning, not from the 16th century and a common symbol of law. striving excellence on youtube, mental civilization. i'm wondering here because there was that real conversation that was happening about well, if we give the veney bounces back to non jury, you don't have the resources to look off of them won't look after them. the happened instances where a lot of money was spent getting them back from different parts of europe between the 950. and they ended up back in europe again an o t. how do you reassure people? can you that what happen again? well, you know, no, it was going to happen again because now i plan in place to build a global kind of ms. young. the ms young and this is young is being built on an independent trust legacy was originally trusted, which had the key stakeholder control over over the real panel in government and how the n c m n national commission on this one to minutes on the board of the trustees, this legacy research on trust is an independent trust structure, government, which will respond to bill museum and show that it is built into all scanners. it's been decided by starting j was running right now. so you can show the 50 on the show and there will be a displayed on present or about best practice. you know, i'm not ok, i've been here all about it. somebody and were looted. and so they were brought to result in, in, in the national museum there for anybody to see just this afternoon. i went to involved in was young and actually saw runs is i reason why it's all been stalled. probably was thing is with developing to walk lawson's young here in been in the museum or whatever, going to us, which will receive kick on display. there's a to parks icons, robert progress. so there's no fear of this the gotten of the government or go to the city of andrew state is very focused on this legacy social trust. i is an independent trust with shows no problem. let's 1st do you have to get their name? bronze is back to as well constantly. so that involves some negotiation. i want to talk to you about negotiation that heavenly said to this comment festival and i just come off the back of it immediately. i'm interested in your take days, a new dynamic, both in the global south and in the global north. former colonies are strengthening them. you seem infrastructure, and they are developing policies to retrieve objects. deborah last, involuntarily, during the colonial era, former colonizers, on the other hand, are slowly moving to a point where they are willing to re betsy aid search object. now the challenges to whether former colonies and former colonizers are able to reduce them, which will distrust and to do dialogue on the issue. on an equivalent level. only, den, some of the injustice committed in the colonial era can be undone. now, alexa, i think what's really important is this discussion was coming together the consensus, it's being built. and i think in a way, i feel that we've played a part in building that collaboration with the partners that are not here has been talking about, i think is really important. we don't see this as a sort of oppositional thing. that it's something where we, you know, we come in to with good intent and then we can, we can achieve good things. i will talk to all british woods and we asked them if they would be part of this program. barnaby. they sent us a statement in sad, it's a very long statement, but let's have a look at it. and then i'll just pull out a couple of things that really struck us here on the stream. so we'll put that up on the screen. everybody say you can actually see that and, and this is where the british museum are coming from, or they have some difficulty, which i know you, you'll be able to explain. but they say we believe the strength for the british museum collection resides in its breadth and depth, allowing millions of visitors and understanding of the coaches of the world and how they connect over time, where the thing trade, migration conquest or peaceful exchange. we're talking about conquest right here. so barnaby, that sounds to me like they're not really going to give them. the bronze is to this beautiful museum that will happen in the southern part of nigeria. that doesn't sound to me like they're going to hand them over. what did you find when you went there to talk to them about this? well, there's a lot i could say about the british museum. i think when i started out on this project i, i felt like a lot of people that it was that a very self assured, possibly even our current institution, which didn't feel it had to on. so for itself and towards the end i came said instead as, as a ra divided institution, an institution which is almost paralyzed by this problem and doesn't quite know what to say, and hence it's not on typical that they've given you a press release and they haven't appeared in this program, the british museum does have a story to tell. it doesn't always succeed in getting it across. they are constrained in a way that needs to see in aberdeen for example, is not. there is something called a british museum act of 1963, which makes it impossible for the british muse into the accession that museum speak for the handover in a permanent way items from its collection. with a few exceptions, which, which don hicks mentioned at the beginning of the program to do not seal and not see taken luton human body parts. in general terms, it's very difficult for the british museum to do things back forever without a change to the law, and that would require an act of parliament. then it's difficult to see this current, british conservative government going down that route. the british museum does have a lot of leeway, however, over loans and within the been in dialogue group, which is a group of museums which are talking about this thing. they've indicated a willingness to lead back a specified number of bed in bronze is and they haven't, they haven't even stipulated which ones within their collection. they haven't, they haven't ruled out any objects, but there is a potential car crash for the british museum. i have to say, which is the only other museums in the bed in dial group. it's not inconceivable that they will give back their bed in bronzes and the british museum will end up loaning. but it's been a bronson. now that where loan is curious before his art has been stolen, looted and they seem to be having to negotiate, getting it back. how do you feel about that? i think this is why im and the universities decision was for an unconditional return. we didn't have moral title, so i think our decision is really straightforward. i think there's one thing i would take out museum statement, i think is interesting. but it shows about this ability of objects to tell stories about connections of people around the world. and i think it would be really good if we were able to lend scottish things to ben in city so that, that, that's a mutual lender can go on. i think it might be nice if we could, but maybe some time borrow some bending. bronze is from, from bending city and i think there's a, there could be a lot more flow between institutions rather than focusing too much on, on ownership. but i think in this case, for the decision of ownership was quite simple. and i told you in that once made my jaw drop, when you were suggesting an exchange of bidding bronze, this is some of the greatest out that you has ever produced. what were you suggesting that exchange should be? am i to go ahead? no. what i was saying was that this backwards belong to us still is imperative. another issue that's the ownership of ours should be accomplished. they belong to us. now, when the machine has been established and occupied, give it back to us. then like nila said, we can have this exchange programs where we log all onto parts to any global ms young and then also learning console or to also show you know, more you know, the system is something that is published within the museum sister. well, we are going to start learning items loan to pass, you know, so it should be clear that the owner of this artifact the mom to us and then we can move them to you and also ask for walks, we belong to you to belong to ross sure, and on resumes here in britain, arrow, and swearing. all our follow right now, i want to visit one more place. and this is the way we could do it sort of digitally the a digital painting project because a lot of creative thought about how do we share our arts around the world universally. and this is one way, have a look, have a lesson believe is a project designed to create an online cup law that connects believe the router in a deserving and globally circulated between it in at 7 and 1930. the spaniards whoop. and it was have an overview o d, no on just a little in, in, in it, in a to 7. the 7 is not a substitute for patricia. but again, it's one of the stairs that has been taking the duration to ensure interstitial additional been objects. sentiment i've got the sa kinley short amount of time left in this program, but i want to ask you just briefly in a thoughts why you think this movement for the return of the been influences is happening right now. neil, go ahead. well, i think there's lots things, i think many, many museum curators are no thinking, as i say about music objects as relationships. so there's been a huge change in the people working in museums. i think there are many, there's much more thinking about the history of collections. and much more willingness to, to listen to the people associated with objects. so i think the, the world has shifted in many different ways, and i think we're coming together as barney's barnaby said to sort of golden moment . i only, i've got 45 seconds. i know you don't need that long. go ahead. was his movement happening now? while points embrace specific political things? president, macro france, went to west africa in 2017. he made a re exciting and unexpected speech saying this cannot carry on. a report came out which pertain to french museums, but it sent shock waves across british and german museums. and then even more recently, black lives matters. it exploded in the united states. in the summer of 2020, there was about police brutality in europe. it seems to be all about the colonial legacy, and that's a very critical for here. what we're 4 or of the benign funds is all around the world by long to nigeria, what year will that make a prediction? oh said between now and 2024 hours to get ah presume for them and they are some of them are ha, i love that and no ca. barnaby. neil, you chey ross. thank you so much for being part of this conversation. now, you know about the brands you will see headlines, or of the time about them. have a look here on my laptop. he may not be out to see them in person, but you can absolutely visit digital by name, reconnecting, royal art treasures. and so watching everybody and that will be available next year . and so everybody see you next time of the stream. ah ah. the silence has been distinct. ah, beneath this eden ah, is one of scandinavia largest iron or deposits. and it's driving a wedge between those seeking wealth and those defending their way of life. gallop a witness documentary on a j 0 with from megan to jerusalem to buy 'em off the government just trying to do my own home milestone, my own history, my background. 3 short films that show how people take a stand against evictions in their struggling communities. the 1st time they arrested me, i was 11 years old, a j select on out is era and talk to l, just a wild alarm. we listen, design is are making serious efforts in order to impede and to stop the trend of the go see if we meet with global news makers about the store be stuck on her hello. i'm lauren taylor in london. the top stories and out is era united states to set a new global record reporting more than 1000000 covered 19 cases in one day. it comes out to the new year holiday weekend when some states didn't report statistics. so it's like it could include cases from several days, but it does that cap off a significant rise and infections where the u. s. re.

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