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Transcripts for MSNBC Dateline 20240604 08:40:00

he worked hard and long hours to support rachel. he wanted to make her happy, and he was a good dad. and for that she cheated on him, threatened him and then attacked with those scissors. of course, by that point, todd told the police, she was a very unstable woman. started drinking, started binge drinking. i was afraid for the children. she was just spinning into this mental cycle of self-destruction. reporter: and then todd s defense revealed this little gem. she s signed up for california sweetheart, which is an adult connection kind of you can judge for yourselves what it is. reporter: married to a man she d grown to hate, in an affair with a man she was maybe thinking of cheating on, said the defense. she was conflicted, said todd s attorney. she was telling people she was afraid of todd. and yet she sure didn t act like it here, todd and rachel look happy. compare it with this photograph taken in las vegas

Transcripts for MSNBC Dateline 20240604 08:41:00

about just a few days before rachel died. reporter: but there was something else, said todd s attorney, and it was reason number two, that rachel s death was not murder. and that was that his client had a psychotic breakdown when rachel attacked him. his ability to understand what he was doing was diminished. why should the jury believe that? well, as you ll remember, rachel herself described todd as unstable at times. and now the defense presented evidence of what they said was his history of psychotic episodes. the first one happened in asia, something like 20 years earlier when todd was married to cathy and was flying with the fighting samurai squadron. he was caught shoplifting from a base px. he claimed amnesia. so the air force sent him off for psychiatric tests. but then it got even more bizarre, and cathy called her friend tanya. she telephoned me saying, i m in hawaii. todd had a mental breakdown, and

Transcripts for MSNBC Dateline 20240604 08:38:00

reporter: and? she won. and so, in september of 2014, when todd winker went on trial charged with first-degree murder of second wife rachel, lisette suder could use the georgia story about first wife cathy s death 15 years earlier against him. and the defense? dismissed the georgia case out of hand. irrelevant, said todd s attorney. cathy winkler s death was thoroughly investigated, he said. and it was not ruled a murder, because it was not a murder. there s no evidence of anything other than an accident. reporter: todd s attorney was able to explain away the things that had raised suspicion. cathy s family was wrong, said the defense. she loved camping. a ranger who saw them making their dinner way up in this remote spot, so far from any other living soul, said they seemed happy. and the insurance money, remember that? that wasn t motive, just business as usual for a pair of upper-middle class professionals. in addition to the insurance

Transcripts for MSNBC Dateline 20240604 08:44:00

reporter: all very sad, said the defense, but not murder. and what would prosecutor suder say about that? she said it was fakery. todd winkler may have had or feigned some disorder that got him out of the air force, but he killed rachel and it was murder committed by a man practiced at getting away with things. this is a case about a mastermind, a manipulator, a murderer. this is a case about todd winkler and how he brutally murdered rachel marie winkler, his wife, mother of his three small children. reporter: todd winkler did not have to fend off a scissor-wielding wife, said prosecutor suder, so it wasn t self-defense. and rachel s death could not be blamed on any mental condition

Transcripts for MSNBC Dateline 20240604 08:43:00

out, became catatonic, ended up in the hospital where they found nothing wrong with him and released him. rachel told james he faked the episode. but here at trial, a defense psychiatrist testified todd suffered from real mental issues, dissociative disorder, conversion disorder, which meant he could be violent if he felt he was under attack. and that awful morning? first he told the police she threatened to sic her well-armed boyfriend on him. and she said, no, you know, i m looking to have my boyfriend get rid of you. reporter: and then she was coming at me with a vee of scissors. reporter: rachel s dad, don, and self-described soulmate, james, watched as the defense argued that todd had no choice but to kill the woman they so loved. his state of mind is what you really need to pay careful attention to here. he knows she ll kill him. he knows if he doesn t end it, it could end him.

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