voting for trump in 2024 and push the desire to actually win. so how those candidates do it, that s going to be an interesting thing to watch. and maybe it is the case that the way to thread that needle is going to be to say i ll pardon him, and that is the way that we can win and move forward. i would disagree on the pardon question. in the middle of court dates, this is we re going have to leave it there. we re out of time. but we will get back to you because there are big questions whether or not that is going to be something realistic. these court dates coming up for the former president. more tonight on the arraignment, the historic arraignment of donald trump and whether or not it could change the way we see the presidency forever. we have a presidential historian, doug brinkley here to give us his perspective.
view things differently. we obviously now know with the benefit of time, pence took a different view. if that was a source of criminal behavior, you would be hearing from the vice president that was the case, but it was more about process and why i wouldn t have been the subject of a pardon question from anyone. the process was trying to overturn the lawful election of president biden after the courts had been exhausted and of course the electoral college voted. you and others voted not to certify. i m curious, for us to understand this, as you are sort of charting the period, as you say, you have influence on the caucus and you re going the try to work with kevin mccarthy and everyone else, i m curious, what s your bottom line position on what happened on january 6th? those folks who stormed the capital at least share the goal that you identified, which was to overturn election results. when they stormed the capitol, did you view that as, you welcome them, because you shared the sam
members involved in that meeting and a handful of other members that weren t at the december 21st meeting. as the preemptive pardons. mr. gaetz was personally pushing for a pardon and he was doing so since early december. i m not sure why. mr. gaetz had reached out to me to ask if he could have a meeting with mr. meadows about receiving a presidential pardon. and again, jake, she had contemporaneous notes, four of the six on just the pardon question have said it s not true. the committee has new documents and believes it is time for cassidy hutchinson to be a public witness, to walk through the new information and also to dot the is and cross the ts on information like that, which is blockbuster, jake. joining us now two former trump insiders who know cassidy hutchinson. olivia troye and the former white house director of strategic directions alyssa
i ll agree with what was just said. it is a competitive news cycle and to do it in the midst of this. the other name i would add was pat cipollone and they ve been trying to pursue pat cipollone, which was left hanging in the last hearings, where was he, what is he doing and all of that. the other unanswered question was exactly, this pardon question, which they released the list of names then denied it. and it maybe something as a follow up to that where there s more concrete evidence of that. but when we re in a news cycle in the midst of roe heading into a fourth of july weekend doing this on sudden notice, you have to be the import of that so trounced all of those other considerations. well, do you think, matthew, that they would want to respond to something as you bring up the pardons. so if they, and they did present the evidence from several people talking about requests for
could come in the hearing or video footage. the other thing is potentially that if the name of the person who testifying leaks than trump or his allies might get to the witness. they might try to obstruct the testimony in some way. and they want to protect against that. so, i think that is much information you need to make concrete. and say we have it now. you said that it is definitely not millbrook s, but there were other members of congress, who also reportedly, at least raised the pardon question. we haven t seen a member of congress testify yet. but i just wanna play some of the members who allegedly did ask for a pardon. dick a look. mr. gates had reach out to me to ask if a meeting with mr. meadows occurred, about receiving the day all contact to? not all of them. so you mentioned mr. gates, mr. brooks? mr. biggs did.