violent. what better indication of how donald turns any word he can to turn truth on its head. and he s done this his whole life. this is a man whose casinos plied sixth, seventh, and eighth graders with money with liquor and limousines and hotel rooms. there is no moral core here in this man. and the case, putting him on the witness stand, that would be a worse nightmare than tacopina made clear to judge kaplan simply being trump s lawyer has to be. let me stay with you for a second. it s not just that. now we know, moving on to one of his many other cases, in the mar-a-lago documents case, he s got a former staffer testifying or cooperating. how nervous do you think he might be about that? about hiding documents? oh, donald is going to be very worried about that, and worse for donald, he s going to run into something called criminal procedure rule 43,
former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst cynthia oxley is here to help break it all down. very good to see you my friend. so you heard president biden s comments and then, come forward that we also see that he is cooperating. so your former prosecutor, how much of a difference does this really make? well it makes a huge difference. i mean about their problems with, that let s face it, simone it is not. good it is just not good having this case. one of the problems? the problems are twofold in my view. one is that it kind of takes the high road away from the white house when there are these similar cases. i mean look a lot of differences, anyone who watches the show knows the differences. they are obvious, one includes obstruction, one doesn t. one includes immediately had nine documents, over one doesn t. when includes hiding documents after subpoena, one does not. one includes having your lawyer, sly one doesn t. it is obvious, all of the differences. to your average
secret or classified or whatever, and for whatever reason, those have been left there. and then they have not been returned as they should have been in a timely way so that they could be secured. i get how it might have happened. it doesn t mean it should have happened. people were being careless. there s a difference between being careless and being purposeful in terms of hiding documents, lying about documents, refusing to give up documents, making up that you have declassified them in your brain for some kind of magical moment. that s a lot different. i just don t know if it s enough different to get it across the finish line in a criminal prosecution when the burden of proof is so high. yeah, and of course the difference is of course, and you talked about this also, mika, the willful intent to obstruct an investigation by actually lying to the fbi, lying to the department of justice on whether
and he had no such intent. that is exactly what will be looked at by the special counsel. so that is sort of step one. if you can t show knowledge and intent, you re not in the criminal space at all. this may have been, you know, shoddy work, it may be inappropriate, but it is not a criminal matter. second, even if it were a criminal matter, you look at aggravating factors, so for instance, many people have focused on with respect to former president trump the obstruction of justice that was alleged by the department of justice in a search warrant. that is clearly an aggravating factor that was based on telling lies to the department of justice about whether documents were returned, and other conduct such as hiding documents. there s no suggestion now that that was anything that president biden did at any point. but again, we don t know all of the facts yet and that is exactly what the special counsel will be tasked with, getting to the bottom of. andrew, thank you.
he did not do it. day four of the seditious conspiracy trial. trump should have acted, and just manned up to do it, but he didn t. tonight, new evidence of how hard the oath keepers pressed for a coup. congressman jamie raskin, on what it means for the committee s final hearing. then, even new reporting suggesting the justice department thinks donald trump is, still, hiding documents. plus, new reporting that herschel walker urged his ex girlfriend to have a second abortion. joe searcy owning, on the presidents candid remarks about vladimir putin, and nuclear armageddon. all in, starting right now. good evening, from new york, i m chris hayes. we begin tonight by setting a scene for you at the e barrett premium federal courthouse in washington d.c.. five members of the right-wing gang, the oath keepers, are currently on trial for seditious conspiracy. in connection with their plot to keep donald trump in pair