Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20200416

Spring break spread hit a lot of people east of the mississippi river. You know, its something i dont understand. You have people like senator kennedy, and a lot of other trump supporters, and a lot of americans, rightly, were so offended and shocked and upset, like i was, when 3,000 americans died at the hands of islamic terrorism on 9 11. Were at 30,000. Were at ten times that. Because of the communist Chinese Government lying, and their incompetence. The american president lying and his incompetence. Continued incompetence. And the incompetence continues. The World Health Organizations incompetence. Yes, i will say that. Donald trump may be the wrong person to criticize the w. H. O. , but others in congress should. Attach strings to the funding. We shouldnt cut the funding for the w. H. O. You know, willie, i dont even this is a guy i think he went to oxford. A big john kerry supporter. A man about town, obviously. Very, very erudite, or however they say it in oxford. He says in his madeup accent that, yeah, we closed down. People still died. He knows that without the social distancing, he knows without the lockdowns, he knows this he may be playing stupid on tv. He may be acting like he is dumb as dish water on tv but he knows without the social distancing, instead of 30,000 people dead, itd probably be 300,000 people dead right now. He also has to know that if we reopen the government too quickly, without the testing, if we reopen the economy without widespread testing, a lot more people are going to die. Here it comes, john kennedy, i like how you talk like that, mr. Oxford. You know, he actually talks like Sherlock Holmes when he is behind closed doors in his house. He had a top hat and smokes a pipe. But he knows, willie, that its the businesses, the Small Business owners that you and i know, and mika knows so well, that own Family Businesses and own small restaurants and small bars and small shops, theyre the ones that are going to be hurt the most if we reopen the businesses, then they have to shut down again because donald trump still refuses to act in a strong manner on testing. Its just stupid and shortsighted. And he knows it. Senator kennedy knows everything you just said. The reason we know he knows it is thats effectively what he said in the interview. We have to open up the economy. A bunch of people are going to get sick, but thats a tradeoff im willing to make. Thats not exactly a fringe view among many republicans. The president is effect i live among many republicans. The president is effect i lily saying that. He wants to open the economy. A congressperson said it is the lesser of two evils. A lot of older people may die, but younger people can get the businesses open. We need to open the economy again. What senator kennedy said opened eyes, but it is not something we havent heard all the way from the white house, and well hear it again today as the president announces he is going to tell some governors of some states that he has deemed, based on some data he says he sees, hes going to tell them they can open for business. As senator kennedy said, a lot of people will get sick because of it. The thing is, willie, there was somebody who claims to be a, quote, newsman, who is anything but, who took great offense at me several weeks ago, saying that the Republican Party claims to be the party of life, if youre talking about the unborn. But if youre the born, my god, watch out. If youre especially in the greatest generation, if youre a world war ii veteran in your 90s, if youre a vietnam veteran in your 60s. If youre in donald trump or John Kennedys generation. If you are a korean war veteran in your 70s or 80s, well, the hell with you. Because youre right, there is a growing list of republican senators, republican congressmen and women, white house officials, in the Republican Party, that are saying, yeah, sure, Senior Citizens are going to die, but what the hell . We really got to get wall street moving again. Weve really got to get boeing corporation moving again. Weve really got to get these fortune 500 Companies Moving again. Lets bring in Jonathan Lemire and katty. Katty, theyre not even being subtle about it. Like theyre not even being subtle. Theyre basically saying, yes, older people are going to die. The greatest generation, a lot of people in the greatest generation are going to die. You know, these same people who tear up on, you know, june the 6th, every june the 6th, about what happened at normandy. Now, because corporate profits for boeing and other fortune 500 companies are going down, and the stock market is struggling, theyre saying, yeah, theyre going to die. We know older people are going to die. The greatest generation, a lot of people are going to die there. A lot of people are going to die that are korean war vets and vietnam vets. But you know what . We have to get wall street purring again. Its really an astonishing argument from the, quote, party of life. Yeah. I suspect what theyre really saying is that your older people are going to die, but ill do all i can to protect my parents and my grandparents, and ill leave that problem with you. I would recommend, for anyone who has a few minutes this morning, to go and watch Angela Merkels press conference on how she handles the coronavirus in her press briefings that she gave yesterday. She lays out very clearly why we cannot afford to do exactly what they are suggesting, which is just let the older people die. It is not just about the people who might die. It is about the pressure on the Health Care System that will come if we open up the economy now. A society and democracy without a robust Health Care System, under the pressure its been under the last month, is not a viable society. She lays it out very clearly. We open up now, and one person infects two people. Our Health Care System is shot by the time we get to september. They infect 1. 5 people, it is shot by the time we get to november. Its an incredibly compelling argument. That this is not just about the humanity, that we as a society do not choose to let our old people die when we could save them in order to rescue the stock market and millionaires investments. But it is also about saving a vital part of our society, which is the Health Care System. It just cant withstand us reopening right now. It cant. There is going to be, mika, a second wave thats coming in the fall that we really need to prepare for right now. You know, it is interesting. Katty talked about how theyre saying, oh, it happens to older people, but other older people. Well take care of our own. Mika, were seeing a lot of Senior Citizens in the United States senate saying, hell with it, let old people die, reopen the economy. A lot of radio shows and cable news shows are saying the same thing. A lot of older people in the white house are saying it. What theyre saying is, yeah, what theyre saying is, you know, were rich enough to take care of ourselves in the white house. Right. Were rich enough on talk radio to take care of ourselves. Were rich enough in the United States senate, able to take care of ourselves, so youre not going see us going out eating at restaurants. Youre not going to see us going out with the economy starting back up. But were going to push the president and other people and governors to put political pressure on to get other people out there. Yes, theyre going to die, but what can you do . Theyre not in the 1 . Thats their attitude, mika. Theres no other way to put it. Again, i dont even want to mention their names because theyre so disgusting. But people that used to serve in other administrations, people who used to have good reputations, people who were on talk radio, people who were on cable news, like, theyre telling other old people, yeah, youre going to have to die. Get over it. We got to get wall street started again. But youre not going to see them have family reunions in a barn in central louisiana. Like, inviting 1,000 straight people to roam. They know they dont want their family members to die. Theyre going to stay cloistered behind the gates of their homes. Theyre going to stay cloistered in the United States senate. Theyre going to stay cloistered where they stay cloistered and say, again, their argument is, make no mistake of it and it is adonald tru trumps Republican Party, yes, Senior Citizens are going to die, but the bottom line is more important. For those trying to push the country through this and make decisions, heres the problem, and it is a really big problem, you heard dr. Birx saying yesterday at the briefing the only thing of value, by the way, that was revealed during the briefing you cant go out. Please dont go out. It is too soon. Its not possible. Heres the reason why. As the president talks about opening up the country, about reopening businesses, we have 30,000 dead and more dying. We have a big problem. Testing is not even near where it needs to be. Its not even weeks. Its not even months to wrhere t needs to be. Heres the problem, asymptomatic carriers. This virus will be out there. If people dont listen to dr. Birx, and they listen to the president , there will be more deaths. So that reopening comes with more deaths because, right now, the only thing that has done anything to control the virus is being closed. Nobody wants to be closed. Nobody wants their children out of school. Nobody wants their businesses dying. We all agree, we would like to see the economy opening. But because you didnt prepare, because everything was botched from day one, there isnt the testing that is needed right now. There isnt the work that needed to be done. And the president will not invoke the dpa and get it nationalized and streamlined and happening as quickly as possible with mass coordination from the government. So, yes, youre stuck. You open the country, you open at your own political peril. Because those asymptomatic carriers will come back to bite everybody, including the president and the politicians who make that decision. And, Jonathan Lemire, everybody oh, my god everybody keeps going back to testing, testing, testing. Even the ceos and the people that donald trump claim were on his reopening america panel, which a lot of people didnt even know that the president was going to use their names, theyre frustrated. The ceos are frustrated, according to the wall street journal, according to the Washington Post. Because they say they cant do this without more robust testing, without more widespread testing. You have to test. You have to trace. By the way, you cant wave a magic wand as a ceo and say, hey, everybody come back to work. Thats not going to do it because workers who have maybe parents or grandparents at home, workers who may have children with Underlying Health conditions, are not going theyre not going to be as cavalier about the life and death of their loved ones. As donald trump and john kennedy and talk radio hosts and steven moore and larry kudlow are. The president has been fixated on this may 1st date. Now, again, lets stress, it will be the governors themselves who actually lift stay at home orders, who are the ones who are going to reopen the economies in their states. Obviously, if the president announces, as we expect today, guidelines for the 50 states, that will give some governors the feeling of cover they need to do so. We expect itll be in a couple categories. The president is expected to say some states could go back may 1st, some a little sooner. Others that are still hot spots would need to go later. But theyre sort of recommendations that not everyone, of course, is expected to follow. We are anticipating some real tension between the white house and some statehouses across the country. Youre right, joe, the president has convened his second council. We see the task force, headed by the Vice President , dr. Fauci, dr. Birx there, and they appear before the media most days. Now, there is an economic council, the one meant to help steer him to reopen the country. Youre right, when he announced names from the participants in the rose garden, that was news to some involved, who were learning for the first time when the president said their names aloud in front of the news cameras. Yesterday, he had Conference Calls with dozens and dozens, if not more than 100 people on them. While there was, of course, as we reported, we talked to some of the people involved. While there was, of course, the usual praise of the president s handling of things, which we tend to hear from cabinet meetings, as well, there was also real concern. Exactly what you said, joe, real pushback from some of the leaders of industry, some of these titans of american capitalism who say, of course we want to go back to work, but we cant yet. Were not going to be able to do so until there is widespread testing. We need to be able to guarantee our workers safety. We need to make sure theyre comfortable coming back to work, that theyre not going to spread this disease among their family members. They stressed also for the need of more personal protective gear, saying in certain industries, people are not going to feel safe to be able to come to work every day. They urge the president to tap the brakes and make sure this was thought through before he pushes to reopen the economy again. It does seem he is ready to go, at least with some parts of it. Those ceos, joe, are saying to the president , its great to open the economy. But if consumers dont feel comfortable and safe coming into the economy, going into restaurants, going back into their offices, theres no point in opening the economy. As he talks about theesz tase td areas where there hasnt been as much coronavirus, sparsely populated, i think the state of south dakota gives a good window of what could happen. The governor didnt put into effect a stay at home order, theres been an outbreak in a processing plant. Less than 1 Million People population there. Still, the governor hasnt put that in place. She says, the rules that govern the bigger cities, like sioux falls, shouldnt apply to the smaller towns. The mayors are saying, okay, but the closest hospital is 30 miles away. If everybody in my town gets sick, that hospital is overwhelmed. So this is not just a new york city problem. That is what you hear from Public Health officials. If you relax all the standards, if you relax all the guidelines, even in a place with a sparse population, youre setting yourself up for a problem. Amid the Global Pandemic and record unemployment, President Trump is now threatening to shut town congress. We showed you the president s claims on monday. He has total authority over the states. A quick reminder of that. What provision in the constitution gives the president the power to open or close state economies . And then provisions. Well give you a legal brief if you want. The states ordered schools closed. Businesses like restaurants. I let that happen. Because i would have preferred that. I let that happen. But if i wanted to, i could have closed it up. The president of the United States has the authority to do what the president has the authority to do, which is very powerful. The president of the United States calls the shots. They cant do anything without the approval of the president of the United States. Mr. President when somebody is the president of the United States, the authority is total. Thats the way its got to be. Your authority is total . Total. You said when someone is president of the United States, their authority is total. That is not true. Who told you that . You know what were going to do . Were going to write up papers on this. It is not going to be necessary. Because the governors need us one way or the other. Because ultimately, it comes with the federal government. That being said, were getting along very well with the governors. I feel very certain that there wont be a problem. Please, go ahead. Has any governor agreed you have the authority to decide when their state opens back up . I havent asked anybody. You know why . I dont have to. Who told you the president has total authority . Enough, please. I just the authority of the president is total. Total. Yeah. Where, other than liz cheney and a few other republicans, where are the, quote, constitutionalists. Theyll have to live with that. Their children and grandchildren will look at them in history as those who followed him into a very bad direction, pushed him. He was speaking like a totalitarian leader, and they said nothing about it. Yup. Yesterday, the president tried to flex that power yesterday, trying to get nominees into senior positions and on the federal bench without senate approv approval. The constitution allows a president to Adjourn Congress if house and Senate Leaders cant agree on whether to adjourn. Thats not the case here. No president has ever used that power. We have a tremendous number of people that have to come into government. Now, more so than ever before, because of the virus and the problem. We have to do it. We have to do whatever we have to do. Earlier, last month, you were in the oval office talking about now is not the time for partisanship. How will that act lower the p t partisanship in this town, and could it hinder your ability to get something done on coronavirus . Well, look, its been a very partisan government for a long period of time. Not just this administration. You can go back into the last two administrations. Youve seen a lot of partisanship. But i have a very strong power. Id rather not use that power. But we have way over 100 people that we very badly need in this administration, that should have been approved a long time ago. One of them is the head of voice of america. If you look at what theyre doing, what theyre saying about our country, its a disgrace, the people that are running that. We have somebody thats really good, really talented, and that loves our country. I want to get these people approved. What is the timeline for that though . If congress doesnt act by when, do you have a date . Theyve been warned, and theyre being warned right now. If they dont approve it, were going to go this rule. Well probably be challenged in court, and well see who wins. The more he talks like that during these briefings, where dr. Birx is sitting there freezing instead of working on the coronavirus, you wonder what exactly is getting done in there that is constructive. He uses the questions to do that or to flout his lies. He never answers the questions during these briefings. And never answers. When he knows where a question is going that would require him to tell an uncomfortable truth, he cuts off the reporter and runs over them. I dont know. There is no news value to these press conference. Theyre not press conferences. Yesterday was a partisan political rally. Nothing more than a partisan dr. Birx is sitting there, wasting her time. Wasting hours of her time. Wasting so much time. Lets bring in another guy whose time was wasted yesterday, sitting through it. Nbc news correspondent hans nichols. He wouldnt see it that way. Reporter no, sir. Anyway, you saw him asking the president. Hans, i just so the irony is so thick, that this president is complaining about vacancies in his administration when he has purposefully had more acting secretaries than any president in our lifetime. And more vacancies by design. Like jared and the president at the beginning of this administration decided they were going to have as many vacancies as possible because they wanted to run have all the power reside inside the white house. So why did the president decide yesterday to start complaining about vacancies, which hes really been a champion of forap voice of america. A broadcast on the voice of america, the president was unhappy with it. Didnt think it was flattering. You always want to be talking about when talking proximate causes with donald trump. You dont know who spun him up, if there is Something Else going on there. But he went out of his way at several points to attack the voice of america. He has a new director he wants to put in, try to steer that in a different direction. You know, he talks about the under secretary of culture for food safety. Whats interesting to me about this is he chose this time to really escalate the temperature in washington, d. C. He still needs congress, pelosi and mnuchin are still trying to work outthe Small Business loans. They need another 250 billion. At the same time, the president is threatening to go to war with congress. They need congress for so many different things. I also think it is notable that when you look at President Donald Trump and Mitch Mcconnell, there hasnt been any daylight on so many issues, particularly with judges. Theres going to be a yawning gap when you look at what mcconnells statement was on this idea of having the presidency, a different power, a Different Branch of government, adjourning congress. There are clearly going to be differences there. While this could be a fight tweeb t between the president and pelosi, which it is hard to have a fight if youre not talking, the bigger issue could be between the president and the majority leader, walking in lockstep in. Happens, help us out here. I know when the president talked about reopening by easter, we immediately said, you know, he was just sending a message to business that, yeah, he was pushing back on his health advisers. He knew that we couldnt reopen our economy fully by easter. Do we have the same thing happening here on the may 1st date, with testing still as pathetic as it is, if you look at it as a per citizen ratio . Reporter right. I wouldnt be so surprised. I actually think the president is, this time, more serious about it. Pau because they think the combination of diagnostic testing and surveillance testing, monitoring whats happening, could be sufficient to open up parts of the country on a regional pabasis. In the past, it seems he has been winking at the markets, trying to juice the stock market, or send a signal to americans who want to get back to work. Lets be honest about this, there is a big debate in the country about when to open up. Yeah. Reporter in the past, at least with easter, it seems the president was nodding. This seems more serious. Again though, the testing, i mean, youre talking about the overall confidence issue. The power of the presidency is limited. The rhetorical powers are limit limited. Even if the president says, open up, there is no quarentigar guarantee. This is what he heard with the business leaders, there may not be the public confidence. I dont want to do sports metaphors, in part, because there are no sports to watch, but confidence is a tricky thing to instill. I dont know if the president , at least for half the country, or more than half, we can have a debate, that doesnt listen to him, how he will inspire people to let them know it is safe to go out and resume living their lives. Guys . Well, in the president s most lets say the swing state thats most supportive of the president in the faspast, 5 of floridians dont trust the president when he is talking about the coronavirus. Itll be hard for him to instill that confidence. Thank you so much for being with us. Great job. Great lly appreciate it. Willie, we have to reopen. Were going to have to reopen this economy at some point. I dont know if it is going to be may the 1st or not. Again, the question i know a lot of employees, including people who work with us, people who work in our friends Small Businesses, theyre going to want to know that when they go back to work, theyre not going to be bringing home the coronavirus, a pandemic, to their parents or grandparents or loved ones. Yeah. Thats the balance we have to strike here. Nobody is discounting the impact that this coronavirus has had on Small Businesses and the cascading effects of that on families and employment. Obviously, were going to get another bad unemployment number today. We all have friends, we all have family members, some People Living in our houses, who are struggling through this with Small Businesses. Trying to save employees. Trying to keep their paid. No one, and i mean no one, is discounting how important it is to get people back to work. If you get people back to work too soon, its been said a million times, people get sick again, you have to close businesses again. It backfires on you. So the president has to walk that line. I suspect he made up his mind. Hell have new guidelines for certain states that well hear today. He is going to tell them, all right, guys, the coast is clear. Well see what effect that has on those states and those towns, those communities, and those businesses. Yeah. By the way, we have a morning joe special report coming up in our 8 00 a. M. Hour. Well be focusing on two key themes. The nations leading Health Experts answer your questions about the pandemic. And were drilling down on how the decisions our leaders make today will affect the country long into the future. Our special guests will include joe and jill biden. Pete buttigieg and retired general stop sianley mcchrystal. And lady gaga. We started the block with senator kennedy, and well end with democrat kennedy. I stand before you tonight as a proud deplorable. Unlike some of the folks in washington, d. C. , im talking about the cultured, cosmopolitan, ghost mill, avocado toast eating insiders. Im a democrat. I support senator kerry. Every Financial Plan needs a cfp® professional confident Financial Plans, calming Financial Plans, complete Financial Plans. Theyre all possible with a cfp® professional. Find yours at letsmakeaplan. Org. W. H. O. Pushed chinas misinformation about the virus, even praising china for its socalled transparency. I dont think so. The president of the United States said china has been working very hard to contain the coronavirus. The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency. We have a tremendous relationship with china. I think theyre doing a very professional job. Theyre working very, very hard. In the sense they have everything under control. I think president xi is extremely capable. And he is working very hard on this. Its a tremendous problem. Some people dont seem to trust the data coming out of china. Are you worried about that . Look, i know president xi loves the people of china, and he is doing a very good job with a very, very tough situation. W. H. O. Willingly took chinas assurances to face value, and they took it at face value. Had the w. H. O. Done its job to call out chinas lack of transparency, the outbreak could have been contained at its source. Its almost like the people that were writing that script for trudonald trump to read, an may i add, read badly, its almost as if we were flown in on a rocket ship from mars and never really heard what donald trump was saying about china in january, february and march. What donald trump is saying about china, he praised their transparency. He said the United States, people of the United States thank china for their transparency and great work. You heard his words. That was january 24th. Thank you, president xi. Then in february, he said they had it under control. When asked if he trusted the data coming out of china, he said, yes, president xi what does he say . President xi is doing a great job. He loves the people of china. On and on and on. So, again, donald trump acts as if video doesnt exist, and as if video is not going to be played every time. Hed be much better donald, mr. President , please, listen. You do a much better job not humiliating yourself at these press conferences in the afternoons. Instead, keeping your head down, getting the work, being quiet. Go radio silent. Its not going to happen. Obsess hold on obsess on getting the testing done. Not just for this summer. Yeah. But for the second wave that is coming in the fall, because its coming in the fall. When it comes to the fall, we have to be able to do the sort of things we should be doing right now. We arent because you failed before. Testing, tracing, being able to treat those that have the virus, being able to isolate those. Were learning more and more every day. It does really seem, that if you look at a boston study of the homeless, it really does seem the asymptomatic spread of the coronavirus, i mean, it spreads like wildfire. Thats why it is so important. You cant just test the people who are going into the hospital sick. 80 of people, most likely, 80 are asymptomatic. Yeah. We need testing. That was, by the way that montage was courtesy of John Heilemann. Yes. Well have more coming up later in the show. Joining us, professor of history at tulane university, walter isaacson. And bestselling author, prof s professor of history at rice university, and a president ial historian, douglas brinkley. His book, american moonshot. John f. Kennedy and the great space race is out now in paperback. Great to have both of you this morning. You know, walter, feel free if you want to talk about donald trump, you can talk about donald trump. Id rather talk about Something Else with you. Youve studied, completely studied, the lives of people like albert einstein, steve jobs, the great thinkers of our time, great scientists of our time. One of the few Silver Linings of this horrible pandemic is the fact that scientists are coming together in a way theyve never come together before. Working toward one goal. What can you tell us about that . Theyre moving into the breach. As you said over and over again, correctly, massive failure of testing in this country has caused us enormous problems, and will continue to if we try to reopen without having testing facilities. So academic universities, you know, the institute of harvard m. I. T. , down at my university at tulane, and especially at berkeley now, the people who are running the biology departments, who are studying gene editing, have converted their labs, like jennifer dowdner, you have on the screen right now, converting laboratories and saying, were going to step into the breach. Youd think itd be easy, but the government hasnt made it easy. They dont have clear reporting requirements. They dont have ways of gathering the data problperly. The Emergency Operation needed to do a lab has been held up. Now, were seeing out of tulane, the university of washington started this, and now berkeley. Theyre doing it, and theyll also have to get to next generation tests, where you can do it in a go to a drugstore, like you would a pregnancy test. Have a strip of paper, a stripe of paper will tell you in five to ten minutes. Have you been exposed . Have you got the virus . Douglas brinkley, im just wondering if there is any moment in history that would call for even more than this, the opposite of what this president is doing. It feels like his decisions could be fatal for americans, his lack of preparation could be fatal for americans. The question is, will it be fatal politically for him . Well, look, walter was just talking about science. In 1960, when jack kennedy ran for president and won, scientists were time magazines persons of the year. They had a 75 approval rating, and everybody believed the scientists would have medical miracles. Dna had been discovered in the 1950s. New types of antibiotics. The end of the 60s and early 70s, scientists lost some of their luster. With donald trump, weve had a president who has been denouncing scientific experts since day one. Total climate denial, saying 99 of the scientists are wrong about Climate Change, treating it as if it is some kind of hoax. So this is a president thats been having a war against science his entire min straere administration. He gutted cdc, got rid of the experts in the white house, so he was caught deeply flatfooted. If you go back in history, this is the worst president you can imagine for a pandemic. What president s dealt with it well . Bill clinton in the 1990s read Richard Prestons novels, the cobra effect and the hot spot. He met with preston and pulled together a team of pandemic experts and built up the u. S. Stockpile in the 90s. Really, the cupboard thats bare, that donald trump kept referring to, was not bare when bill clinton was president. He took the idea of bioterror attacks and a pandemic seriously. I think in the future now, a crisis like this builds an opportunity where we need to have a brandnew Public Works Health project. Were going to need a secretary of, you know, bioterror. Well need to continue to work in innovative, new ways with the universities, fortune 500 companies, and the government. One good thing thats come out of this is all of the governors, by and large, have been doing a pretty good job. Hey, doug, its willie. Your new book, american mo moonshot, uses a term that was literal but now where the country resources minds and power to do something big. When coronavirus hit, a lot of americans were perhaps surprised, definitely disappointed, that the country wasnt better prepared. It seems that the moonshot of the moment is to get testing, as walter says, into the country. There doesnt seem to be, from the president s point of view, a National Movement to do that. Its left to the governors. Its left, for example, to new york city, now making its own tests. Outsourcing to companies in indiana. Why hasnt the government in this moment been able to better marshall its energy for a moonshot to fix this problem . Because President Trump is in reelection mode, and he likes to lead by chaos and division. He cant get that out of his system. Theres an opportunity here to really rally the American People. The moonshot not just being the vaccine which might come in a year, year and a half, not just the testing, but to really get the American Public concerned about how we can rebuild a health infrastructure. He doesnt like that. He had put all his chips on building a wall with mexico. He stuck on that being his big oneoff project. When kennedy did the apollo program, that was his oneoff, something that you would get known for. Theodore roosevelt with conservation. Trump is all about really getting reelected right now. Alas, what our world needs is an earthshot. We have been treating the wor world hurricanes, fires will happen. You cant burn the australian forest, have australia burn, california burn every year without paying health costs. We have to reorient ourselves now, not about going to the moon or mars, but thinking about earth. How can we contain future pandemics . Once we get over this, which it probably wont be really over until 2021. Katty kay . Walter, im interested in what youre saying about the science there when it comes to testing. The other part of just getting out of this, getting out of lockdown, is going to be Contact Tracing. Some estimates suggest that were going to need Something Like 300,000 contact tracers, people who are trained. At the moment, there are none. There doesnt seem to be a federal program to get them up and ramping. I think there is a nonprofit in massachusetts hiring 500. We need 300,000. Could science step in there . Weve seen apps in singapore and south korea play a role, but there may be a Civil Liberties concern here in the United States than some other countries. Are you hearing anything from the scientists that youre speaking to about what they could do about the Contact Tracing to accelerate that . Absolutely. You need the Contact Tracing, and you need the data that comes from that. Were a country, as you just said, that gets queasy when people are tracing us and keeping our data. Somehow or another, we dont quite worry when google and facebook or apple is tracing us and knows where we are. The notion that that data would be used the way it is used in singapore, the way it is used in china, sort of causes us to get a bit queasy. I would think you need people you can trust. Obviously, the federal government right now hasnt earned trust. Nor, for that matter, as facebook, probably. But it would be good if people like francis collins, who runs the National Institutes of health, and anthony fauci, who works with him out there, came up with a system to say, well have a standardized test. Very standardized reporting procedures. Were going to have consistent types and rates of testing across the country. Then we are going to have contact tracking that uses your phone, that uses your location data, and you can opt out of it if you really want. But to be part of this national effort, you have to say, yes, im going to allow both my phone and my fitbits and all the things they collect data on me to know where ive been, who ive been in contact with. Unless you want to opt out, it becomes part of a way to trace things. I think thats going to be hard for the American People. But you need the people who earned your trust to say, well do it in a way that protects your anonymity, except for when it comes to these health issues. Walter, how funny is it, that google, apple, you name it, facebook, everybody follows. People will sign up for an app, tiktok. I mean, isnt that, like, run by the Chinese Government . Im not exactly sure who runs tiktok. But people are like, sure, yes, ill agree to that. Ill do a dance now. Whatever it takes to get the app. Ill let them follow us. Ill tell you though people will be freaked out if were using it to actually stop the sped read of a pandemic. I teach a course here at tulane called the digital revolution. It ends with Mark Zuckerberg and social media. Maybe its our generation, joe, if you dont mind me throwing myself in with you, that have that sense of by the sea, kicking thing out a bit. My students arent particularly worried that amazon and google know where they are. Theyre not particularly fixated on privacy. When i say do you want to turn off your location data . Would you mind that all the crime cameras in new orleans have facial recognition and can know when you go into bars . Or would you mind having your travel and your phone records, and which cell phone towers you goo go to, all that traced . There is a little less worry for that with people in college. Privacy, get over it, it doesnt exist. Heres the big thing, i think coronavirus may further erode, for better or for worse in my mind, probably worse, but other people, probably better erode this notion that were all entitled to absolute anonymity when we catch viruses and wander around. Walter isaacson, thank you so much. Douglas brinkley, thank you, as well. Check out his book, John F Kennedy and the great space race, out in paperback now. Congratulations on the book. It is not the headlines businesses want to read now. Aid runs dry as program fails to reach hardest hit. Sk Stephanie Ruhle explains what is going on with the governments plan, next on morning joe. The Paycheck Protection Program is on set to exhaust its 350 billion funding from congress this morning. Democrats and republicans both want to add another 250 billion to that emergency coronavirus funding. They have yet to come to agreement on whether to add restrictions to the loans or not. Joins us now, nbc news Senior Business correspondent and msnbc anchor, Stephanie Ruhle. Joe, this is a big issue right now because of the potential for abuse. Stephanie, its a huge issue. Youve talked to us about this. Ive got friends in pensacola, florida. Ive got friends in south florida. They have businesses that depend on a lot of people coming in this time of year. People that have restaurants around spring training facilities. Theyre not getting any money. Theyre not getting help. Yet, you told us stories, like, if somebody has a yacht, owns a yacht, and decides theyre going to charter a yacht five, six, seven times a year, those people can get money. Small Business Owners are having trouble getting money themselves. Sounds like 2008 all over again, where the rich get richer and the poor get crushed. Joe, thats the exact risk here. Remember in 2008, when things were put in place, they were put in place with bad intentions. After the subprime crisis, when rescues came in, and suddenly we said, hold on a second, the banks, it worked out for them in the end but people lost their homes. Remember how angry people were . They were saying, how come none of the bankers went to jail . Technically, they didnt break the law. So right here we are again in an emergency situation, where we need to help people. If we dont take a closer look at the language, what is going to happen, and what is happening, is that the savviest will win, and the neediest will lose. Youre giving a really important and good example. Because the way this program works, yes, theyre trying to get another 250 billion, but i promise you, theres going to be in the trillions when it comes to demand. Because if youre a restaurant in pensacola, just like you said, youre completely shut down right now. You have zero income. To get this loan, you basically fete to get 2 1 2 times payroll for the next two months. You have to bring everybody back on. Youll hire everybody back, and you dont know. You might not be open again in two and a half months. It is a rouhuge risk. That small restaurant doesnt have a great relationship with a bank, so they couldnt get in early. Lets go to the reverse. This is perfectly suited for a private country club, a law firm, an investment firm, or just like you said, somebody who literally owns a yacht or a private plane. Lets walk through that example because it is important to show people. If i owned a yacht or a plane and said, three times a year, ill charter it out, chances are, ive lost those charters because people arent traveling. I have a captain and a crew. My Business Manager would say, hey, stephanie, you can apply for ppp. Technical technically, joe, i am eligible. I am going to lose that income. You and i both know, that person that owns a plane or a yacht or private club, they dont need that. This money is going to run out. If congress doesnt look at this right now, and say, lets see who this money is going to, then you and i are going to be sitting in these exact seats six months from now doing a financial aautopsy, going, hol on a second. These people took the money . All we can do is publicly shame them. The nail salon and rest arenaur will be long out of business. This is an opportunity for congress to look at where is this money going . We really have to put Strings Attached to this, to make sure this isnt 2008 all over again. Stephanie ruhle, thank you so much. Were going to see you right after our special this morning. Also, would love for you to come back tomorrow and talk about this more because it is such an important issue. Thank you so much. Jonathan lemire, lets follow up on what stephanie said. You have retailers, Small Business owners who have restaurants, whether its restaurants, nail salons, whether its a builder, whether its a realtor, theyre getting crushed right now. Yet, there are examples like stephanie said where sometimes, its getting the people who arent the most disadvantaged. Its getting to people who can get by without the funding. While a lot of people that have Small Businesses, who are paying, still tell me theyre not able to get support. Theres no question, joe. That has become a rather widespread and sad story across the nation right now. These Small Businesses that have tried to keep going, that have tried to keep their workers employed, that have tried, say, as a restaurant, to transform into a takeout business, to remain a part of the community which theyve been in for so long and are so beloved. Theyre really struggling and have a hard time receiving the necessary federal support. Were still at the very beginning of this crisis financially. The government is going to have to come up with far more money to try to stabilize this economy, even after, even if the president is able to, you know, quote, reopen things as of may 1st. They thi things have cooled, talks of a phase four. Theres been no discussions with Speaker Pelosi. Theres been real dispute over infrastructure. Yesterday, one of the president ss primary concerns, whether or not his name appeared on the checks americans were receiving, which according to reporting, has delayed their delivery to those that need the most. All right. Well get more on the political angle of this when nbcs kasie hunt joins us with the latest from capitol hill. Plus, were about an hour away from our morning joe special report. Isolation nation. Well speak live with the apparent democratic nominee for president , joe biden and dr. Jill biden joins us, as well. Also, lady gaga, Stanley Mcchrystal. Pete buttigieg. Morning joe is coming right back. Because i can still make my own insulin. And trulicity activates my body to release it like its supposed to. Once weekly trulicity is for type 2 diabetes. Its not insulin. It starts acting from the first dose. And it lowers risk of heart attack, stroke, or death in people with known Heart Disease or multiple risk factors. Trulicity isnt for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. Dont take trulicity if youre allergic to it, you or your family have medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2. Stop trulicity and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, changes in vision, or diabetic retinopathy. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Taking trulicity with sulfonylurea or insulin raises low blood sugar risk. Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, belly pain, and decreased appetite, which lead to dehydration and may worsen kidney problems. I have it within me to lower my a1c. Ask your doctor about trulicity. We have it totally under control. Its one person coming in from china. We have it very well under control. We pretty much shut it down coming in from china. When it gets warm, historically, that has been able to kill the virus. People are getting better. Theyre all getting better. 15 within a couple days will be down to close to zero. It is going to disappear. One day, its like a miracle, it will disappear, and youll be fine. Theyll have vaccines, i think, relatively soon. Not only the vaccines, but the therapies. Therapies are sort of another word for cure. Were talking about small numbers in the United States. Numbers are lower than just about anybody. Really working out. A lot of good things are going to happen. We are responding with great speed and professionalism. Its going to go away. Yeah, i dont take responsibility at all. Its all going to be great. Were going to be so good. We came up so suddenly. This is a pandemic. I felt it was a pandemic long before it was a pandemic. All you had to do is look at other countries. The coronavirus. You know that, right . Coronavirus. This is their new hoax. 15 people in this massive country. Because of the fact that we went early, we could have had more than that. Were doing great. Our country is doing so great. 30,000 deaths. That was from John Heilemann and the folks a t the recount. All the times the president replayed the virus from january to midmarch and john will be on tomorrow morning with more of that calendar, showing the president s pivot from downplaying to blame shifting. Wow. Welcome back to morning joe. Thursday, april 16th. Along with joe, willie, and me, we have editor in chief of the atlantic magazine, jeffrey goldberg. Nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host of kasie d. C. On msnbc, kasie hunt. Willie, the recount calendar, its just its brutal because its the facts laid out, the timeline laid out visually. It reminded me of john adams famous quote, facts are stubborn things, regardless of our inclinations. I think he said, the dictates of our passions. You cannot altar the facts. Those facts are in evidence, and they can be laid out in a calendar to show how much the president is lying every day in his press conferences, which is why it would be best for the president just to be quiet, get to work. You know, start working on nationalizing the testing efforts so we can get people back to work sooner. Yeah. I mean, that is a calendar for history right there. Weve talked about it almost every morning, showing the missteps and the downplaying since january. New york times had a piece last saturday. The Washington Post had one before that. Talking about, point by point, day by day, week by week, the problems that led us to the point where we are right now, and the ignorance of this administration in handling it. Right you youre right, the thing we know about donald trump is he likes to be praised. One way he could earn praise, as you said earlier, is get up there and get something done, instead of attacking reporters and going after the w. H. O. , going after the press, and going after governors. What if he stood up there its two months late but what if he said, today, im a i nounsi i announcing a new National Program to get testing done. Quicker you test, quicker you get back to work. Im at the command of the ship, and well get testing to the country. That would be substantive, worth us and the country listening to every day. Instead of what we get, which is invented councils, ceos who didnt know they were on the council, learned from the rose garden a couple days ago. What if he stood up there and announced something substantive, that addressed the problem in front of us . Because here the numbers. In new york city, continuing to show positive signs of stabilizing, although the death numbers are not good, despite Governor Andrew Cuomo announcing another 752 deaths yesterday, the states vast need for ventilators subsided. The state will disperse 150 of the lifesaving machines across the country. New yorkers are generous, and they are grateful and gracious. When you need help, we will be there for you. We will be. State of michigan is going through an issue right now. State of maryland is going through an issue. Were stabilizing. Were going to send 100 ventilators to michigan and 50 to the state of maryland. We are stabilized, says Governor Cuomo. In an effort to continue the states stabilization rates, Governor Cuomo issued an executive order, requiring all residents wear masks in public starting tomorrow night, in places where social distancing, you cant have it. New york city First Responders continue to be flooded with three times the normal rate of cardiac 911 calls, many of which they are unable to save those lives. Officials tell nbc news, of the 205 calls paramedics responded to on tuesday, 70 of those patients died, mika. Were seeing those death numbers in new york city that come out is a and now account for deaths presumed to be the result of complications from coronavirus. Things like heart attacks, underlying conditions exacerbated by coronavirus. Hard to know the numbers actually. President trump today is expected to issue guidelines to governors on how to reopen the economy, suggesting yesterday that some states might open before his may 1st deadline. Amid the debate over when and how to reopen the economy, lets take a look at how one state is proposing going about doing so. California governor gavin newsom announce add framework for how his state would eventually reopen. As officials weigh lifting restrictive orders amid the coronavirus pandemic. The governor said any timeframe is up in the air, and several benchmarks need to be hit before restrictions could start to be lifted. Some of the measures include temporarily redrawing floor plans in schools and businesses for greater physical distancing. Creating enough room in hospitals to handle another surge of patients. And providing enough protective equipment for First Responders. He also said wider Testing Capacity would be needed, as well as therapeutics, to help treat patients. The head of californias Health Department said restaurants will likely be able to reopen with fewer tables. Face has k masks are likely to common in public. Willie . This is how europe is going about its attempt to begin, at least, to reopen some parts of it society. German chancellor Angela Merkel announced germany will slowly ease restrictions to curb the spread of the coronavirus. The current measures will stay in place until may 3rd. Next week, shops under a certain size could reopen, and schools could gradually begin to reopen by may 4th. Large public gatherings, such as religious services, will continue to be banned until august 31st. Bars, restaurants, cafes, and movie theaters will remain closed. In her announcement on easing some of the restrictions, chancellor merkel said, testing will ramp up. Germany ca germany capable of testing 100,000 people a day, and more than any other country in europe. Thats according to the new york times. Denmark has reopened schools and nurseries for children up to the age of 11. In spain, construction and manufacturing continues, as some nonessential eemplmployees retd to work earlier this week. In italy, the few businesses with the green light to reopen, mainly shops selling books, stationery, and children clothes, are open, with customers Wearing Masks and gloves. Shops have to be sanitized twice a day and ensure proper ventilation. Shop owners telling nbc news theyre concerned restrictions are being lifted too soon. On monday, italy reached 20,000 coronavirus deaths. Thats the second highest number in the world after the United States. Jeffrey goldberg, all that, if you look around the world, and if you look at what california is proposing, the conditions that would have to be there for their economy to open back up, it goes back to what dr. Fauci has been saying for many, many weeks. Theres no on switch. This doesnt one day wake up, and the country says, back to work. It has to be a phrase reintroduction of people back into the workplace, people back into events. Its not just going to happen overnight. Jeffrey goldberg . I think we lost jeffrey go goldbe goldberg. I dont think we can hear us. Kasie, ill try you on this one. This is the president. We know well hear today, guidelines he believes some parts of the country, some states, some communities can open up. He says hes identified places where it will be safe. Hard to know whats going to happen there, but a lot of Public Health officials believe it could lead to the introduction and spread of coronavirus into those places. Willie, we should underscore, too, again, that despite his repeated claims that he as quote, unquote, total authority, the end of the day, this is not the president s all call. This is the call of the governors and mayors, the ones wh had to put these restrictions into place in the first place, to tell residents to stay home. They are ultimately the ones who are responsible for those decisions, and theyre the ones that are going to have to roll them back. Now, that said, how the president handles this, what he says publicly, is going to go a long way toward dictating the behavior of a lot of people in america who listen to him. Were already seeing signs. These are onerous restrictions for people. The economic effects of this are incredibly real, and everybody wants to try to get the country back to work as quickly as is possibly safe. Youre seeing we saw protests in michigan against governor gretchen whitmer. Saw protests against republican Governor Mike Dewine in ohio. These are things the president can decide he is going to try to rise above, and encourage people to continue to do the things they have been doing, to slow the spread and flatten the curve of this disease, or he can take a different path that may make a lot of that unrest thats starting to bubble up become worse, create more of a problem. We saw a lot of these people putting themselves in unsafe situations, being close together out in public. That could be something that he could end up being responsible for, willie. Kasie, joe here. A few days ago, we saw the president say his authority was total. He repeated the word total twice, to make sure everybody got the message. Then he talked about adjourning congress so he could get a couple of people in for whatever he wanted to get people in for. Bizarre. But, you know, we often criticize republicans for not stepping forward and holding the president accountable. Mitch mcconnell made it clear, pretty quickly, that he was not going to allow the president to adjourn his chamber. When i heard the president say that, joe, first of all, its not something weve ever dealt with before in the history of the country. There is a power buried in the constitution that has never been used. But the uncertainty around, oh, my god, how big of a deal is this threat from the president , was, is this something Mitch Mcconnell called the president about and suggested he threaten to do . Because he is angry at Speaker Pelosi or god knows what. Turns out, that is not the case. Mitch mcconnell, couple hours later, put out a statement saying, listen, whatever you know, adjourning the senate is going to take the consent of the minority leader, chuck schumer. Him backing off of this makes it a completely empty threat. The reality is, no, the president of the United States cannot adjourn the United States Senate Without the consent of the United States senate. If the senate wants to be in session, the senate will remain in session, regardless of what any president of the United States says to them or wants to do. So mcconnell, protecting the prerogatives of his administration in this. I think it is worth pointing out, you know, theyre fighting over the power to appoint nominees in recess, right . If congress isnt around, then the Typical Senate votes that install nominees dont have to happen. The president has some power to put them in there. It was Mitch Mcconnell who went to the courts to fight to say that these sort of theyre called pro forma sessions, where they gavel in and out. Hes the one who went to court and got the courts to say, actually, that prevents a president from giving appointment appointments. This, of course, is when president obama was in office, joe. Yeah. Just before we get to the next story here, there is a little bit of a pattern. Ill go back three stories. A temper tantrum at the governors, then backing off and being nice. Total authority, then backing off. Now trying to adjourn the senate. Every day, it appears to be, some might say, an attempt to just make news so people watch these useless briefings. These poor scientists and doctors have to sit there in the cold listening to the president as he abuses his power repeatedly, time and time again, for two hours a day. Well and on live television. Yesterday and using reporters as tools to basically promulgate his lies and newsmaking behavior. And yesterday, we saw the president , of course, attacking the democrats. The same time, the administration is trying to work with the democrats to get the next relief bill through. This reminds us, again, the president , as i say, is a day trader. He is not bound by what he said yesterday, let alone, you know, 15 minutes ago. Jeffrey goldberg, we see this on stark display when you see the president attacking the w. H. O. Because of their response to china, because they believe china. This is nothing the w. H. O. Said that you cant find a quote from donald trump, going back to january the 24th, where he is praising president xi on behalf of the United States people, saying xi is doing a great job and being transparent. Well, i mean, maybe its a form of psychological projection. Weve seen that with this president , where he accuses others of doing things that he is wellknown to have done. Or maybe im making it too complicated. In the simple answer, he doesnt remember or doesnt care what he said yesterday or the day before. Going to your point, the day trader point, its almost deeper than just day trading. He only lives in the moment hes in. And what happened a day before him doesnt seem to matter. Thats why there is no way to fix a position that hes holding. Politicians change. Leaders change. They take in new information and adjust their views based on the new information. Thats not what were seeing here. Were seeing a kind of crazy pinball approach to policymaking. Yeah. Unlike most of us, he doesnt seem to care that the previous day he said something completely different. Well, you know, i really believe that, right now, this is a very different dynamic, where the president cant wash away a headline with a new one about something that maybe doesnt impact the lives of everyday americans. Right now, americans are writhing in pain. Theyre dying. Theyre losing family members. Theyre putting themselves at risk if they are going to work on the projefront lines. If theyre not going to work, theyre worried about putting food on the table. Theyre watching, theyre definitely watching. They want to know what this president can do for them. What they are going to see in regular News Coverage by journalists who want to uncover the truth is a president who is lying repeatedly, lying about what he said in the past, lying about what he did in the past, lying about what he didnt do in the past, and they can see with their eyes that there are no tests. They can see with their hearts that things are not going well for them. Theyre in pain. And this president doesnt even feel what theyre feeling. Doesnt have empathy. This, i think, will be a turn in the dynamic, from a president who could manipulate the truth and manipulate headlines, and now is stuck staring down at the truth and not being able to handle the incredible tidal wave of bad news coming his way. Willie, it is pretty remarkable, when you look at, you know, these press conferences, and how much time the president spends in press conferences, how much time the president has spent talking about this pandemic and how little time he spends talking about the pain, the heartache, the misery, the sacrifice of, well, lets just start with the First Responders. Our cops, our firefighters, the ems people driving the ambulances and driving these dying people to the hospitals, or the people who have died, or the people who are suffering, or the families that will never be the same. Never. He is i think historically, he is historically illequipped to handle this crisis on an intellectual level, on an emotional level. He just cant connect the way almost all of our other president s have been able to connect. You could talk about reagan after the challenger accident. You can talk about bill clinton in so many different parts of his presidency. You can talk about barack obama singing Amazing Grace in charleston. Meeting the moment. We dont require our president to sing Amazing Grace or to be able to speak like ronald reagan, but just a little bit of empathy. Hes not even capable of faking it. No, its not in his personality. Unfortunately, it shouldnt be a surprise, but youre right, hes not the president who will go into a church at a Memorial Service and sing Amazing Grace. He hasnt even been the president who stood on the pile of rubble with a megaphone and said, were going to get through this. The people who did this will hear from us, as george w. Bush did after 9 11. Speaking to the people, the fear of the people, the pain of the people. Thats not something he does well. Weve been talking about this all week. You just stop and think about the monumental waste of time that are these press conferences, when hes talking about his total authority. Then for 24 hours, everyone is tied in knots, rebutting that point. Again, were talking about middle School Civics for a day, when we should be talking about testing. I dont mean us. I mean the country. The problem is not how he feels or how he is being treated. Thats how he views it. The problem is, no one is being tested in this country as a per capita number. We have to get people tested. We have to get equipment to places that need it. We have to figure out the balance between saving the economy and keeping the country healthy. Thats not top of mind though. The president goes out this to rewrite history on the one hand, and to soothe his own ego on the other. All right. Still ahead on morning joe, a morning joe special report, with live interviews with president ial candidate joe biden, his wife, former second lady, dr. Jill biden. Plus, Pete Buttigieg joins us, along with retired general Stanley Mcchrystal. And a brandnew part of our conversation with lady gaga, who is taking a leading role in a very important cause. 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Thats why, when every connection counts. You can count on us. We have been talking a lot about the current presidency, but what comes next . Daniel dresner is with us, professor of International Politics at the fletcher law of ad diplomacy at tufts university. His book, the toddler in chief, what donald trump teaches us about the modern presidency. Thats what we want to focus on today. Dan, thanks so much for being with us. Weve all relied so much on the good will of the president of the United States. That he is going to be or she is going to be a benevolent force in the white house and want best for the United States of america, primarily. I look at the Trump Presidency though, and im just wondering whether they have to start codifying things that we used to depend on custom to carry us through. Let me give you three specifics. One, the attorney general. In this case, especially corrupt political attorney general, who, obviously, is doing things as the president wants. Maybe in the future, a super majority has to pick the attorney general. Deciding what is classified and not classified. Relationship with an exkgb agent who now runs russia, making us wonder, is that what we want to do . Of course, the power to pardon. Does the president have the power to pardon people who are involved in a case thats related to him . Ill just throw those thoughts to you and just let you go. Tell us what we need to plan for in the future, after donald trump. Well, as you say, i mean, unfortunately, a lot of what donald trump has done thats unprecedented also, nonetheless, remains legal. These are what trump is doing is not necessarily violating laws in many of these instances. He is violating the norms. The idea he can use the pardon power how he sees fit, as a quid pro quo, or that he can try to corrupt the Justice Department. I do think there are legal steps you can presumably try to take. You probably want to strengthen Civil Service checks, essentially to prevent the ability of political appointees to influence them. We see this in the Justice Department and the state department, as well. When the Trump Administration came in, one of the ways in which they punished senior diplomats, essentially to assign them the most rudimentary tasks. Like clearing freedom of information act requests. Making their lives so unpleasant, theyd decide to step down. But in many ways, the best way to punish someone who violates a norm because norms are violated on occasion. The question is what happens after that . So this will be a very different narrative if donald trump loses in november. If he loses in november, the political lesson that will be drawn from it is that, in fact, if youre a president , it is not normatively improper to interfere with the Justice Department or use your pardon power capriciously, there are repercussions for that. Assuming the next president would not do these things, it is a way in which you would potentially be able to reinforce the norm, without necessarily having to codify some of these things. That said, i agree with you, that, you know, it might be reasonable to codify things like the pardon power, to say that the president cant pardon someone, including himself or herself, by the way, you know, if it is a direct kenconnection him or something. Lets bring in, speaking of the Justice Department, nbc news and msnbc law analyst, and also the editor in chief of law fair, ben wittes, who cowrote the recent book, the unmaking of the presidency. Donald trumps war on the worlds most powerful office. Ben, jump in on this conversation, if you will. What have we learned from donald trump, and do we need to term these norms that the president is rolling over, after donald trump, do we need to transform these norms into laws . So, yeah, so lets divide the question into two categories of president ial power. One is the powers that the president has inherent in the role as a result of the constitution itself. The power to pardon. The power to make appointments in the executive branch. This is a super, super hard problem because, to try to regulate these things actually runs up against the constitution. The lowhanging fruit are these sweeping powers that congress has given the president over the decades. The problem to declare national emergencies. The huge powers over the borders. The power to slap sanctions on foreign countries. You know, these are powers that actually are congressional powers. Congress has passed these broad statutes that, as dan describes, are just done on the assumption that the presidency is acting in good faith. I think the great lesson of the Trump Presidency is that you cant rely on that assumption. That Means Congress needs to, in the first instance, think hard about what powers it wants to delegate to president ial discretion. The constitutional question, can you regulate the appointments power, can you regulate the pardon power, these are really hard. Because youd need twothirds of both houses of congress and the ratification by the states to make serious changes to them. But i would say, look, the big lesson is that you cant assume that the president will act in good faith, or that if he doesnt act in good faith, the public will mind very much. So that really should condition the grants of power to president ial discretion. And whether a democrat is in Office Next Year or whether a republican is in Office Next Year, this is something that congress should really move aggressively on. Kasie hunt is with us. Dan drezner, she has a question for you. Just to pick up on what joe was just talking about, in terms of the congressional role, dan, what role did the Congress Play over time in getting us to this point . I mean, President Trump is somebody who is clearly willing to take advantage of the powers, or even try to invent powers that dont exist in the presidency, much more than any of his predecessors. But the power of the executive was expanded a ton during george w. Bushs administration and again during the obama administration. What role does that play in where we are today . It plays a huge role. Thats a great point. Which is to say that, essentially, this has been a slow motion process. Really, you can argue, since the post water gate reforms, which was the sort of height of congressional power, you can argue, over the last 50 years. What has happened is as the country and as congress has gotten more polarized, its become more difficult for the legislature to do anything. You know, the rise of the use of filibusters in the senate has incapacitated that body in particular. As a result, theres been a couple of things that have caused the power to shift to the presidency. The first is that with a polarized congress, that provides an opportunity for the president to do things. Even if, you know, the Opposition Party objects, if the president has sufficient loyalty in his party, they can likely block whats going on. Beyond the bare minimum of passing budgets or raising the debt ceiling, congress, because it cant govern, ends up delegating powers to the president. Recognizing it as essentially the last adult in the room, until we elected donald trump, obviously. President s have been frustrated because they cant seem to work with congress to achieve what they want. So regardless of party, democrats and republican president s, wound up doing things by executive order, as a way of bypassing congress at times. Think with president obama. Many of his signature achievements, beyond health care and the initial stimulus package, mar particularly in th second term, came by executive action. The paris Climate Change bill, the iran nuclear deal, opening occupy cuba, so forth. He couldnt get buyin from congress. There is this instance in which, yes, the presidency needs to be constrained, but Congress Also needs to grow the hell up. I think we have the Atlantics Jeffrey Goldberg back. His feed from moon base 9 is with us now. Jeffrey has a question for ben. Yes. Reporting from mars. Atlantic is expanding. I had this question for a long time. Youre focused in the toddlerinchief series, which is enlightening, on the behavior of one person, the president. But im wondering if you could give us your psychoemotional analysis of the enablers of the president , the people around him. Chiefs of staff, advisers, cabinet officials. How do you explain their behavior . Of course, its very hard to imagine the president doing many of the things he does without the enabling power of all of those implementers around him. You know, the answer is i have a chapter in the book on this called when caregivers give up, which is to say that the people who staff trump, the best analogy to that is, think about a Day Care Center where the workers are extremely poorly paid. The result of that is you would, obviously, have high turnover rates, which is what youve seen President Trump administration, as well. Theres a higher burn rate of staff in the Trump Administration, by far, than the obama administration, the bush administration, any of the post cold war administrations. Part of this is because its not like his initial team was all that great, but a lot of the people he picked then, jim mattis, john kelly, rex tillerson, were perceived and talked about as the adults in the room. What they eventually realized is it doesnt matter if youre an adult in the room. In dealing with trump, unlike a toddler, you dont have authorities compared to the prerogatives of the president of the United States. As a result, the remaining people who are left, there is a darwinian process, where the only people who are left to staff trump are essentially the foustians, the ones willing to sell their soul to agree with whatever trump says, so they can execute their own agenda. Think secretary of state mike pompeo, squeezing iran, for example. There are the flunkies, people who would never get a job in any kind of administration beyond this one. Through sheer loyalty, someone like dan scavino, for example, can get hired here. Then the third are the incompetents. The ones who, you know, the island of misfit wants, who would never ordinarily, you know, or have a black mark against them for one thing or another. Because trump is so hard up for staff, winds up hiring people like larry kudlow, or rob porter, or what have you. So the staff dealing with trump was never the alist to begin with. We are now way down tat the bottom of the dlist. They know the only way they can maintain jobs is to please trump. Although, the saga of the acting secretary of the navy, thomas modly, is a testament to the fact that even if you think youre trying to please trump, you might screw up. Because if you try to cater to his every whim, hell change his mind within 24 hours. You wind up being forced out. Ben wittes, it is willie geist. We talked a lot about the institutions of this country and how they hold up to a unique and unprecedented president. How is the judiciary holding up from where you sit at law fair, in terms of pushing back against some of the overreach weve seen in this administration . Yeah. Its a complicated question. You know, on the one hand, the president , of course, has had an unprecedented impact on the judiciary through the efficient and i idealogical coherence of his appointments. In that regard, i think Mitch Mcconnell has played an immense role. On the other hand, there are all these things that the president has wanted to do that the judiciary has meaningfully, if not stopped, then ameliorated in significant ways. And the travel ban, the original muslim ban, travel ban of the president , is a good example of that. It went through three iterations before the Supreme Court finally upheld it. The version that the Supreme Court upheld is substantially different from what the president proposed. So i think, you know, the record is mixed. Certainly, the judiciary has been less aggressive than a lot of critics of the president would like. On the other hand, i think the Trump Presidency would be dramatically more aggressive, more capricious, more authoritarian if the judiciary werent there doing its job. Benjamin willis, thank you. Daniel drezner, thank you. Toddler in chief, what trmp n trump teaches us about the modern presidency. Jeffrey goldberg, thank you, as well, from mars. Come up, the pandemic is impacting everyone, but it is especially destructive for those already struggling before the outbreak, including victims of Domestic Abuse. Congresswoman Veronica Escobar is focusing on that part of the story. See joins us straight ahead on morning joe. Heres the thing about managing multiple clouds for your business. When youve got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds things can get a bit cloudy for you. But now, theres the Dell Technologies cloud, powered by vmware. A single hub for a consistent operating experience across all your clouds. That should clear things up. No uh uh, no way come on, no no nnnnono only discover has no annual fee on any card. That Liberty Mutual customizes your insurance, i just love hitting the open road and telling people nnnnono so you only pay for what you need [squawks] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Were counting down to our morning joe special report coming up in about 15 minutes, starting for our 8 00 a. M. Hour. Full hour, well be focusing on two key themes. The nations leading Health Experts answer your questions about the pandemic. Were also drilling down on how the decisions our leaders make today will affect the country long into the future. Our special guests will include joe and jill biden. Plus, as donald trump fashions himself as a wartime president , well talk to someone who actually commanded troops in the field, when retired fourstar general Stanley Mcchrystal joins the discussion. Along with Pete Buttigieg. And our conversation with lady gaga, focusing on the Mental Health challenges of this major story. Were back in just a moment. When youre confident in your gut, you feel confident to take on anything. With benefiber, youll feel the power of gut Health Confidence every day. Benefiber is a 100 natural prebiotic fiber. Good morning mrs. Johnson. Benefiber. Trust your gut. The xfinity my account app puts you in control with Digital Tools to give you the help you need when you need it. Get fast and easy answers with personalized help 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Change your wifi password to a phrase thats easy to remember. Even troubleshoot your services on your own. Were working to make things a little easier for everyone. Download the xfinity my account app today. Joining us now, member of the house judiciary committee, democratic assistant whip congresswoman Veronica Escobar. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Were taking a deep dive into Mental Health, with top experts and also lady gaga in our next hour. But your focus on your constituents and those who are already in especially vulnerable situations, tell us what you hear is going on and what can be done. Good morning, mika. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Im happy to see that youre safe and healthy, and hope everyone out there is staying safe and as healthy as possible. Thank you for this focus on mental this is a really challenging time for all of us, and we are dealing with health care challenges, with economic challenges, a lot of stressors that are occurring right now all around us. Add to that that were having to be isolated, you know, at a time when you are dealing with a lot of stress, you want to depend on people, you want to be with people. Well, we cant do that, so that adds to the stress and the isolation and the loneliness. All one in five americans suffer from Mental Health issues. Well, these stressors are creating added concern for many of us who are looking out for that particular community. Now, you add to that victims of abuse, either child abuse, sexual abuse, Domestic Abuse, elder abuse, animal abuse as well is included in that category. But you put a victim in a house, isolated with her abuser, this is also a very dangerous time for people who are victims of abuse. Yesterday i had a great call with Community Advocates to talk through what we can better what we can do better as a community in order to make sure that we are protecting those very vulnerable populations. The key i think and i bet this is true in every Community Across the country. The key is making sure that victims know that the vast majority of these service providers, the folks who are taking care of victims, theyre open. Theyre just operating in a different way. Theyre operating using telehealth operations, but we need people to continue to reach out. In el paso we saw a decline in protective orders in the month of march, and we know thats because our county courthouse had to close because of the coronavirus and people mostly women were trapped and didnt know how to get to a lawyer, didnt know how to get to court to get a protective order. We know that theres been a 35 increase across the country in 911 calls for victims of abuse. So this is a really especially difficult time, not just the economy, not just health, but Domestic Abuse as well. Congresswoman, kasie hunt has a question for you. Kasie. Congresswoman, thank you for your focus on this. We are certainly thinking about all of the people who are facing those challenges. Im hoping that you could give us a broad view of the challenges facing the businesses and people working in your district. Congress is arguing right now over how to reauthorize or add money to the Paycheck Protection Program. The administration wants another 250 billion. What are you hearing from businesses in el paso . Are they able to get these loans . Is the program working for them . Are these big, powerful businesses . Are they small momandpop shops . What are you seeing play out on the ground where you are . Thanks, kasie. What im hearing kind of runs the gamut. We had a Small Businessspecific telephone town hall last week, and im still hearing from Small Businesses nearly every day, many of whom have applied for the funds but have yet to receive them. So ive heard this from my colleagues across the country as well, that the money has been very slow in coming. So many of our Small Business owners are really at a desperate point where some are considering should i even take the money. Ive heard from some Small Businesses, should i even take the money it is so late in coming, should i just consider bankruptcy and just shutting down completely. So folks are really at their wits end. We have asked for congress has asked for data from the administration about the money. You know, even some of our Committee Chairs have not received the data that we would like to see from the administration about this. We all know that Small Businesses are the backbone of our local economies. Weve got to get them the lifeline of funds that they need, and i and everybody in the caucus supports more money for Small Businesses, but we all know that our hospitals are struggling, our local governments are struggling, our families are struggling. I dont quite understand the fixation by the senate and by the white house on such a narrow line of support for just one group when there are our effort is to help as Many Americans as possible, including Small Businesses. But not only do we need to provide that money, we have got to understand why it is taking so long to get that money out. Congresswoman Veronica Escobar, thank you so much. Please stay in touch. Thank you for being on today. Thank you. Our morning joe special report, isolation nation is next. Looking at leadership in types of crisis and answering your questions about this pandemic, former Vice President ial joe biden and his top adviser, his wife jill, will kick off the special hour. We will also speak with retired four star general Stanley Mccrystal, former president ial candidate Pete Buttigieg and lady gaga all when we come back in just three minutes. Come back in just three minutes. Out or delivery. And now, with our family takeout special, get a free footlong when you buy two. Being prepared and overcoming challenges. Usaa has been standing with them for nearly a hundred years. And well be here to serve you for a hundred more. No uh uh, no way come on, no no nnnnono only discover has no annual fee on any card. How do you gaveeno® happy 24 7 . With prebiotic oat. It hydrates and softens skin. So it looks like this. And you feel like this. Aveeno® daily moisturizer get skin healthy™ has stood strong through every dark hour and bright dawn our country has endured. It has seen the break in the clouds before anyone else. For the past 168 years, weve also stood by you, helping you weather storms like this one, to protect your loved ones. And well do it for 168 more. It is 8 00 a. M. On the east coast, 5 00 a. M. Out west. Welcome to a morning joe special report. We have a huge hour ahead, including special guests joe and jill biden, lady gaga, Pete Buttigieg, among many others. Theres also a lot to talk about. Over 32,000 americans have lost their lives in just a matter of weeks as this destructive pandemic sweeps the nation and brings america to its knees. Its victims also include millions more who are out of work as businesses, large and small, have shut down to slow the spread. It is an issue that will define the next president ial term whether it is donald trump or his challenger, the apparent democratic nominee joe biden. This hour the nations leading Health Experts answer your questions about the pandemic, and we are drilling down on how the decisions our leaders make today will affect the country long into the future. And, of course, the debate right now thats going on has to do with the reopening of the country. Willie, theres a reality that i think allamericans are going to have to face. The country is going to be reopened at some point without widespread testing. As you brought up last hour, yes, tests are being done, but if you look at it per american citizen, per capita, were doing such a poor job. We have most medical and scientific experts saying that right now we have to be testing at least ten times the amount of people that the United States is testing every day, and yet the president of the United States still steadfastly refuses to make this a top issue with national urgency. T and the power of the federal government behind him. Yes, there is no National Push for testing. There never has been and there isnt this morning as we sit here, and that leaves you with a patchwork of states finding their own ways to do testing, municipalities new york city announced this week it is going to make its own test beginning in may and get those out to its 8. 5 million citizens. There is no National Program. Chuck schumer and the democrats have proposed legislation to make it a National Program, but it is not there right now. As we will see later today, the president s priority is getting people back to work. It is obviously a great and worthy goal. We need everybody to get back to work. But if you dont have testing, if you dont know who is sick, it is hard to know where exactly you can open up. What does it mean to be targeted in your reopening of the economy when you dont know where the virus is exactly . Well get another unemployment number here in just a few minutes. That will be a gut punch, as it has been for the last couple of weeks. Something like 22 Million People by the end of this hour we will know have been placed out of work in just the last three weeks. That will add pressure to the president to begin to reopen the economy. The question is how do you do it safely. It will be tough. Lets bring in the apparent democratic nominee for president , former Vice President joe biden and former second lady of the United States, author and educator, dr. Jill biden. It is great to have you both on the show with us. Thank you so much for being with us. Thanks. Thank you. It is great seeing you. I want to ask you, mr. Vice president , to talk to the people who are hurting and suffering right now. Willie and mika and i were talking earlier about what a shame it is that right now in the middle of a pandemic where over 30,000 people have died, hundreds of thousands have been impacted and are suffering right now, either by this disease or being out of work, they dont have a National Leader that can express sympathy. Could you talk to them as a man whos endured loss and tell them whats on your mind right now and how you understand what theyre going through . Well, joe and mika, i really mean it. Whats on my mind is theyre on my mind. I mean people are frightened. Theyre frightened. People we know who arent close friends, who have access to our telephone number, how to get hold of us, and these these round tables you do with people who are on the front lines, who are i mean theyre scared to death, joe. Joe, basic things like how do i go home. Our soninlaw is a physician up in a surgeon up in philadelphia, one of the major hospitals. He talks about the nurses who are afraid to go home because they may get their children get infected. They have little kids at home. What are they going to do . How are they going to take care of their child . What is going to happen when they cant see mom . We have a friend who tries to go to the nursing home and sit outside a window and put her hand up on the first floor window to just be able to touch her mothers hand on the other side. And now the mother is not able to get up and even do that. These are people who are frightened and theyre looking for leadership. What bothers me, what bothers me so much is the president of the United States doesnt take responsibility. The president of the United States acts like this is not nothing is his fault. Nothing is his responsibility. You know, Franklin Roosevelt made the case that, look, just tell the American People the truth im paraphrasing they can handle it but you have to let them know what you are doing. You have to let them know you understand their pain. The worst thing in the world is being going through this in isolation and thinking nobody hears me. Nobody knows what im going through. Think of all of the people we all know, the people we grew up with. Theyre scared to death and they dont even have and theyre looking to practical things, joe. Theyre looking at things like, okay, guess what . I dont have insurance and this guys trying to do away with the insurance that i had, this Affordable Care act thing. Theyre not even sure of the detail, but what im going to do . And hes in court. Hes in court trying to take it away. He is talking about doing things that, in fact, make no sense to people, to average people. He is talking about getting us back to work when they dont even have the ability to get i got a call yesterday. How do i get a test, joe . Joe, i think im i think i got a problem, joe. I sat with a guy yesterday on a telephone and hes telling me. He said, i dont know, he said, look, i i worked at the hospital. And he said, then i got i got myself a position where i got the virus, so they quarantined me and they put me in the hospital and i made it out and so im out, but they dont want me with my family. Im on the third floor. I spent 15 minutes with him on the phone. He said, i have a 3year old and a 4year old. They come to the door outside and they just knock on the door and say, daddy, daddy, can i see you, daddy, can i see you, daddy. So we spent time going through it. I used to do it with my kids when we were little and i couldnt see it, we would play games. I would say, make up a game, knock on the door and say you know, practical things. The guy is scared to death and hes worried about his children. Hes worried about his wife. I mean these are practical things and the president talks about in like, okay, it is going to be okay, were going to open tomorrow, were going to do this. I mean it just i must tell you, it drives me crazy. I dont know what he doesnt understand about peoples fears. It seems that he doesnt understand how to speak to them. Jill biden. Jill, i know that you have for so long had such an extended family with all of the students that you teach in college. Yes. All of the students, a lot of whom didnt even know that you were second lady of the United States. But through the years you have built a relationship with these students, and i talked to friends who are Mental Health counsellors and they talk about the Mental Health challenges, not only from those affected on the front lines of the virus but also from students who are isolated from their friends, younger people who are scared to death right now about whats going on in this pandemic and what it means for their family, for their fathers, their mothers, their grandparents, and even for them. What do you say to them, to those former students and, yes, future students of yours who are suffering through this pandemic right now . Well, you know, it is real. I think that the they are afraid. They dont know what to do. They are isolated. Even though im not in the classroom this semester, i hear from my students every single day. You know, dr. B, i hope you are okay. Dr. B, you know, im going through this or im going through that and what should i do. I think we need you know, they need to feel that things are going to get better, that there will be help for them. The Mental Health crisis in this country is real, and i think you have lady gaga on later and she is going to be talking about some of this. But i see it, and thats why im so proud that joe in his educational policy is putting in more money so we can have more psychologists and counsellors in our schools because i have seen it for so many years. I have talked to teachers across this country, and i say, what is the one thing that you need, and the teefachers, the educato say to me, jill, we need more help with Mental Health and it is a big problem. I think after this pandemic it is going to be excuse me. It is going to be even greater. So thats one of the things that joe plans to address. Look, joe, one of the things that i think is the root of this, and i think it goes all the way down to our children, even the kids in grade school. They basically hear through their parents talking or what they see on television that the president says, it is not my responsibility. He doesnt take responsibility. Hes president of the United States of america. Even, you know, a kid in 8th grade, the president is supposed to be they dont think commander in chief. The president is supposed to take care of things. He says, i take no responsibility for that, it is not my fault, it is somebody elses fault. He is doing the exact i know it sounds sort of strange, but he is doing the exact thing we teach our kids not to do, blame somebody else. Not me, the other guy. Not me, the other guy. Yeah. I mean this is the president of the United States. I have no proof of this, but every instinct in my body tells me people from the elderly in Nursing Homes all the way to a kid who is home from school in 6th grade says, well, who is in charge . Whos in charge. Right. How is this thing going to get together . I know that sounds silly in one sense, but i really believe it is basic human nature. Yeah. So the president , instead of saying, here is my plan, this is what were going to do, this is how were going to get you tested, this is how were going to do this, he doesnt take responsibility and he says the most bizarre things. Yes, were going to need so much healing to take place after this is over. So joes not going to only be the commander in chief, hes going to be really the healer in chief. Well mr. Vice president. I hope i am that. Many say history will look at this as a monumental collapse in preparation that led to the death of thousands of americans. So i want to look back at what should have been done at this point in the crisis. What warning would have stood out to you . What would you have in place organizationally right now and would you invoke the defense production act as it pertains to testing and supplies . The answer is yes, yes and yes. Look, mika, back all the way back in the middle of january, toward the end of january, i wrote an oped piece for usa today saying, this is what we have to do, this is coming, this pandemic is coming. We talked about it. I wasnt it is not like im claire v clairvoyant. It was clear on its face it was coming. We knew what was about to happen. Instead of acting, the president did nothing. I urged early on that he take i know it sounds strange to people listening, but the defense production act. That means in a time of great crisis the president has the ability to go into private corporations, public corporations, public outfits and say, look, i want you to stop making this and start making that. Just like in world war ii it comes out of. Look how long it took for him to get General Motors to start making the ventilators. Well, we should have been doing that early on in terms of gloves and protective gear for our First Responders, masks, gowns and the like. Look at all of the carnage thats occurred as a consequence of it, and we are risking, we are risking the lives and losing the lives of the very people we are going to need to take care of the people who are, in fact, sick, the First Responders. You know, what i would be doing now, i would really empower a fully a supply commander. I have been talking about this for a while. A general or an admiral who has authority, has authority to in fact decide what the entire supply chain is. One of the people directing that and creating that defense production act to get these things done, and then figuring out how to distribute it around the United States where they are needed. It is not the governors responsibility to make those judgments, and the defense production act for banks to make sure i talked with Stephanie Ruhle a week or so ago. What ive been worried about and she and i talked about is the fact they got to prioritize lending to Small Businesses, the momandpop businesses that are going to go out of business. They should be the ones that are able to stay open, theyre able to come back and be in play. I mean, you know, the outfit that has four employees, ten employees, Small Businesses under 500, thats important. I get that. But how about all of those people in every town in america, you walk down main street and all of those places are closed. What about those people . They need help. I would establish a pandemic testing board to finally solve the testing problem. I mean literally a board set up to do nothing but get the product that is needed, the tests that are needed, the laboratories i would have the private and public laboratories collaborating to move rapidly on testing. I would open up enrollment, a period for the Affordable Care act. Give people the notion youre not going to walk away from them being able to have health care. I would collect more data on what is happening in africanamerican and, you know, minority communities where this the death rate is alarming in those areas. These are the things that we should be doing now so that anyway, im sorry. It is just frustrating, and some of it seems so obvious to so many people. Mr. Vice president , dr. Biden, willie geist. Good to see you both this morning. Hi, willie. You talked about peoples fears, mr. Vice president , and you have talked about the dignity of work in this country over the course of your career. The fears are not just of getting sick as you pointed out, theyre of getting sick, of losing their livelihoods, of being able to go to their job, making the rent this month, getting the help they need for their kids and their families. There are a lot of people in this country listening to President Trump right now and saying to themselves, well, if he wants to start to open parts of the economy and maybe get me back to work and food back on my table, well, thats good news. What would you say to some of those people . Many of them perhaps are thinking about voting for you, who want to get back to work right now . I would say were not we should not send you back to work until it is safe to send you back to work. This is a false choice. The way you revive the economy is you defeat the disease. You defeat the diss eegs. Disease. We have to get the number of new cases significantly down from where they are now. Social distancing has to continue. We have to implement the defense production act as a supply commander, get them out there gathering all of this data. We have to have widespread testing available, willie. Weve known that for the last four months. We have to ensure that hospitals are ready for a flare up. We dont have to just we say, well, we dont need the ventilators now, were sending them somewhere else. The idea that this isnt going to flare up is preposterous. It is going to come back in some form or another. We have to be prepared. What i would be doing is convening the top experts in the country all together, including the private sector and say, okay, what are you going to be doing in your place of business that in fact if we do open up sectors of the economy that it is going to be less likely anybody will be able to spread this disease . I would be making sure that they that we brought in osha to figure out how we can do protection for workers on the job, when we get no matter what the job is. But most of all, willie, i think you would have to say to people, you know, look, were going to make sure that mainstream can open back up, and when it does you are going to have a job. Thats why these programs that have been the socalled c. A. R. E. S. Act that got passed, the money has to get to ordinary people, ordinary people and ordinary Small Businesses. Those people employing two, five, ten, twenty people. I know we have to help 500, you know Small Businesses with 500 or less. But the picture in my mind is opening up for most people is not knowing that a gm factory is functioning, which would be very important. Opening up is being able to get in their vehicle, drive down their main street and see the coffee shop thats open, see the little Sporting Goods store thats still open being make sure the drugstore is open, make sure the people who, in fact, provided for the things that make up a community are open, particularly in small communities, particularly in communities that are minority communities which need that grocery store, which need that drugstore, which need that coffee shop. It is both a social and the and the economic hub of who they are. Yeah. We dont seem to be paying much attention to those folks. Yeah. You know, jill, we have a lot of questions coming in over social media. I wish we had time to get to all of them. One that really stuck out to me, that really personalizes this i think for a lot of people is a question from linda on facebook. She asked, when can i see my children and grandchildren again in a big group . Around a dinner table. You know, the sort of places where your family and our families and families across america come together. It is so hard for them. What does the future look like . You know, i think first and foremost were just going to have to listen to the experts. We are going to have to listen to the people who you know, the Health Experts to say, okay, it is safe. We have to have you know, like joe said, more testing. I am just like the person who wrote in. I mean i cannot wait for the day to just put my arms around our grand kids, and were lucky. You know, our kids live a mile away from us and they walk over and we you know, we wave to them and talk to them from the porch. Two of our grand kids. The other ones, we get on the cellphone and zoom with. We get on zoom. But i know as a mother and as a grandmother, i mean thats what family is all about, that hug, that touch, that feel. Were just going to have to listen to science and to the experts, listen to the facts. Joe, were lucky. Most children live as the crows fly less than a mile away and they walk over every day. Stand out on the back porch. I bribe them with hagen daz ice cream. They sit on the lawn and we sit on the porch and we talk about the day. We make sure that i text with and call every one of my grandchildren, every one of my kids every single solitary day to keep that connection. Thats great. Because it is not just me, joe. My mom. Im sure everybody is doing the same thing. We really are. And we have to yeah. It is just but you gotta i mean we got to look, my message to everybody i talk to is were going to get through this. America has never, ever, ever, ever failed to meet up to a problem when theyre given the straight facts. As roosevelt said, tell them the truth, they can handle it. But what they cant stand is they cant stand this yoyo thing, i mean up and down and up and down. Were going to open tomorrow, were going to do this, everything is going to be fine, a miracle is going to happen, warm weather is going to come and everything is going to be fine. We have to level with them. But, joe, you know, you and i i have been on your program, you and mika early on before i was even running, talking about we need to restore the soul of america. We are seeing the soul of america. Look what is happening. Look at the people risking their lives every day. My soninlaw telling me in the operating room you have nurses wearing garbage bags over them because they dont have the right i mean it is just these are this is the soul of america. It makes you proud to realize how, in fact, giving the American People are. The acts of kindness, just the acts of kindness to one another. It really does. Mr. Vice president , mika has a question for you. I just want to say really quickly. It is interesting, mika, when you listen to jills answer she s says we have to listen to the experts and the doctors. Thats what Vice President pence wrote at the end of january, we need to listen to doctors and we need to listen to scientists. Mika, thats a consistent message we hope the president will adopt. Well, on that, on that question actually as it pertains to our democracy, the presidency, the press and the need for information, mr. Vice president , what do you make of the president s daily briefings that sometimes last over two hours and have his top scientists there but appear to be used for a lot of Different Reasons . Meika, i you know, trying to figure out this man is sort of above my pay grade. I mean it is i dont get it. It seems to always be about him. Everything is about him. It is not about or his political fortune. Like this idea of making sure we delay getting the checks out until his name can be on them. For gods sake, people are scared to death, theyre struggling just to keep their head not above water, but just every once in a while above water. They need the money. And everything is about is about him. This is not about him. It is about us. It is about the American People. I really mean it. It is one of these things that i dont understand. I mean the way that he goes in and attacks the press and the things he says, like hes going to adjourn the congress, he has absolute authority. I mean it is like something out of a out of a really bad play. I mean i it just no, i really mean it. Think about it, joe. Did you ever think, joe, no kidding. You and i have been in politics for a while. We have seen some really rough times. Did you ever, ever, ever, ever think we would be in a situation like this where the president is saying and doing the kinds of things he is doing . Ever. I dont think any of us did. I mean it is just bizarre. Yeah. I dont think anybody expected a president of the United States to stand up and say he had absolute total power over states and localities. Willie is with us. And i take no responsibility, remember . Yeah. And i take none of this is my fault. Exactly. Exactly. Willie. Hey, dr. Biden. You have been a teacher for all of your adult life. A lot of us are watching the extraordinary work that teachers are doing in our own homes right now. Yeah. Scrambling in a couple of weeks to create a curriculum and to continue to teach our kids and to get them through, in our case 4th great and 7th grade. What does education look like to you on the other side of this . Are we going to see any changes because of this . We have seen Online Learning for people lucky enough to have it, to have access to it. Cities like the one where we live in new york city has scrambled to get, you know, tablets into the hands of Public School students so that they can continue to learn. Thats right. So just first, a huge shoutout to our teachers. We talk so much about the people working in the hospitals and rightly so. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. But lets not forget the teachers right now because theyre heroes as well. Yes. I think this actually has started to lift up the teachers and parents are saying, wow, this is a tough job. Yeah. And seeing what teachers do every single day with all of their hearts and their souls, but, yes, this will change education because weve seen the inequality that exists. Not all areas have broadband. Not all people have internet or access to a computer. So this has really put a light on this, that theres so much inequality in education. I think thats one of the things that we have to work on. So education, im talking a lot every day to teachers and groups of teachers and teachers unions. You know, what do we do Going Forward . How are we going to change this . But i do love that parents are now involved in their childrens education. Parents who really were too busy before because maybe they were working two or three jobs, so now you know, now theyre involved. Theyre seeing how much effort it takes. Theyre seeing how hard it is. Maybe Going Forward parents will be more involved in their kids education. Well, former Vice President joe biden and dr. Jill biden. Thank you both so much for being on morning joe. Mika can i say one more thing . I apologize. Yes, sure. Can i say one more thing very quickly . I truly believe, i truly believe we are going to come out of this stronger. The bandaid has sort of been ripped off. People have exposed the iniquities that exist, theyve been exposed in ways that people didnt even want to look at before. All of a sudden people are realizing that person who keeps the storm sewer open and keeps your basement from flooding deserves a thank you and a fair wage. Yes. All of a sudden people are figuring out, that waitress who, in fact, served you every day is in real trouble now and she deserves or he deserves to be able to be taken care of. All of a sudden people are realizing nurses, if theres any angels in heaven, theyre all nurses, male and female. What they do every single day. Cops on the street, firefighters. People i think we have a chance, a chance to take advantage of what we have seen and make it better, better going into the future. I really believe that. I know im viewed as a congenital optimist but i believe that. I believe we have an opportunity to move forward in a way we havent before because now people have seen what real life is for, life for so many people. Yeah. Mr. Vice president , thank you very much. Jill, thank you very, very much. Thanks, mika. Thank you. Thank lady gaga for what she is doing. Thank you. Still ahead oh, thank you very much. Well do that. Still ahead on morning joe, we wanted to know what questions viewers have about the process for returning to normal after this pandemic. Weve got some great replies, and our panel of experts provide those answers straight ahead. Plus, more on the thirst for leadership with retired four star general Stanley Mccrystal and former mayor Pete Buttigieg. Lady gaga on the severe Mental Health challenges ahead for this nation. Were back in a moment. Nation were back in a moment now more than ever, we need the good stuff in life. Family, comfort, belly laughs, joy, togetherness, and of course, love. Milk. Love whats real. Yes. Yes. Yeah sure. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah no problem. Yes yes, yes a thousand times yes disover. Accepted at 99 of places in the u. S. And the clock could be ticking towards bad breath, receding gums and possibly tooth loss. Help turn back the clock on gingivitis with parodontax. Leave bleeding gums behind. Parodontax. Leave bleeding gums behind. I totally get how important it is to stay connected. Customers can do what they need to do, whenever they need to do it online. We care about keeping you safe. vo we are open 24 7 online, so you can keep managing all you need from home and through the verizon apps and verizon. Com. Eveso we can stillg a answer your calls. Now. And we are monitoring our system 24 7 to ensure that we have a fast reliable network, keep the customers connected, and making sure people are staying safe. And were still on the road. Solving Critical Issues as they arise. Go to xfinity. Com prepare. Thank you. Welcome back to this special hour of morning joe. We asked you, the viewers across america, to submit your questions to our panel of Health Experts over social media about what to expect in the weeks and months ahead. Lets get to one of them. To answer our questions we have nbc news medical contributor dr. Van gupta, epidemiologist at ucla. Dr. Dave campbell and dan hillford, ceo of the independent health group, sponsor of this special hour of morning joe. Independence health group is an insurance provider for comcast, nbc, universal employees. Lets get to you, dr. Ramon. This video question from a viewer named carol. Lets listen. When the vaccine becomes available, how will the public be persuaded that it is safe . Dr. Ramon, the question of a vaccine is one we have gotten from a lot of viewers this morning. This is a very good question. You know, vaccines go through a very long process of vetting for safety and efficacy. Right now these trials are all starting and i believe that what is going to happen is that the public is going to be aware as these vaccines are being developed. You know, we have worked very, very hard in other epidemics like in ebola to be able to roll out vaccines quickly and to be able to work with all of the various communities and show them that weve gotten all of this data. So i think that this is going to be extremely important right now. There are always a lot of questions about vaccines, and so i think that everybody as they are ramping up will be spending a lot of time showing people the data and making sure that people feel very comfortable with it. Dr. Gupta, this one for you. Jerry writing on facebook, with reports from china and japan about survivors becoming reinfected, which implies they did not form antibodies during their first infection, how successful will a vaccine actually be . Dr. Gupta. Thanks, willie. You know, these reports have been concerning to all of us. We have been trying to tease out, should we be concerned . Is this real . The answer is we dont know. Some of us are thinking maybe it was a false negative test, so that when these individuals who had the infection then tested negative, was that truly a negative test . We just dont know, but thats one theory. If it is true that they actually did get reinfected soon after recovering, then that is concerning and it confirms some of our suspicions that immunity is different depending on the individual. We think that most people produce antibodies if theyve been infected. Some do it better than others. Some have the better type of antibody that can inhibit viral replication. So it all suggests that immunity is going to look potential different depending on the person, but there are some open questions about this, willie. Was that a false negative test or not, and the implications. You know, mika, thats one of the problems with having a patchwork approach to testing. I know. As the fda was forced to do at the end of february. Even the fda now admitting a lot of the tests are junk. So we cant really look at a false positive we cant even look at a positive now if somebody gets reinfected and as a doctor we are saying cant even be sure that was a real positive. It may have been a false positive. Were not where we need to be, as fauci says. It looks like were in a bad space with that. Dr. Dave, sharon on facebook asks this. Will temperatures be taken every time a teacher or child goes into a school . What is it going to look like . Temperatures being taken every time a kid goes into school and a teacher is better than nothing, but we need massive testing, as dr. Fauci and others have said. We need massive viral testing so that we can know if the child or the teacher is in the asymptomatic but contagious phase. Dan hill, there are many concerns right now when it comes to medical costs, especially for those who recently lost their jobs due to the coronavirus. They have no money coming in. What do you tell customers who cant afford to buy their own insurance . Mika, thats a really good point. What we have done is for our insured that may lose their job, may be furloughed, number one, we have offered a grace period for them to think through this. Number two, we layout for this that if they fall now in their new income level below 138 of poverty theyre able to join a Medicaid Managed Care plan. Our plan is in 28 states, very effective. Also if they resubmit their income and they may fall into one of the medicare subsidized programs that are affordable for them but were working on a daily bases with them. Dr. Dave, i want to ask you this question because i saw it scroll across the bottom of the screen and i know it applies to you directly. Bob asked, when can i feel safe going into a doctor or a Dentists Office just for a regular checkup or for routine routine care . What do you think that looks like, and do you suspect that will also be somebody coming into your Doctors Office to get their temperature taken first . How does that work . Yes, it absolutely affects me. We have 12 to 18 months before we hopefully will have a vaccine. In the meantime, we know this is a very contagious virus. So when you are going for routine visits, doctors, dentists, my brief is everybody has to have a mask on, everybody has to have gloves on, and absolute strict Infection Control processes for the next 12 to 18 months. Willie. Dr. Rimion and dr. Gupta we will get you both in on this. When will Antibody Tests be available for the general public . Does having the antibodies mean i could not infect others. Dr. Rimion . So there is a very big difference between having an antibody and being immune to a virus. This is one of the things people have been trying to work out. Nbld suggests th antibody suggests you have been infected already. These Antibody Tests will let you know, have you had it before. They will not necessarily tell you at this point whether or not you are actually immune to it. Dr. Gupta . Thanks, willie. I will amplify everything dr. Rimoin said and say a positive or negative Antibody Test should not be the premise by which we return people to work. You can be positive for covid antibody ten days after symptoms but still have virus in your nostrils up to 21 days after symptom onset. We need to be really careful in deploying this test broadly. All right. Much of our panel will be back to answer more questions, but first breaking news from the department of labor. Another 5 million workers filed for Unemployment Benefits last week. It is the fourth straight week of multi million claims since the economy abruptly shut down over the virus. The total number of claims filed over the past month is now 22 million. Lets bring in former president ial candidate Pete Buttigieg. He is a u. S. Navy veteran who served in afghanistan. Also ran for president. Also with us, retired four Star Army General Stanley Mcchrystal, the former commander of u. S. And International Security assistance forces, afghanistan, and the former commander of the nations premiere military counterterrorism force, the joint special operations command. He is also author of the book entitled leaders, myth and reality. Lets talk about leadership here, general. What do we need from not only our president , what do we need from our congressional leaders . What do we need from our governors . What do americans need the most in the middle of this pandemic that has challenged us in a way that my gosh, very few things have since the second word war . Thanks, joe. Thanks for having me on. Im not looking to the white house right now for too much leadership. Im really looking for leadership more broadly across the country. One of the things generals learn is that battles are won by sergeants and captains and sometimes lieutenant colonels. I think thats really our mayors in america now. You know, we have 1,400 mayors of cities with 30,000 or more people, like mayor pete was. Thats the front line of the fight now. Thats where connections have to occur. Thats where we need to support their leadership, and thats where we need to build them into a network so they can support each other. Mayor buttigieg, it is willie geist. Good to see you this morning. You have a unique vantage point. Obviously people came to know you as a president ial candidate, but, of course, you were mayor of south bend, indiana where you live. What does it look like on the ground there . I know a lot of people in this country will see another terrible gut punch of an unemployment number today and say, 22 Million People in the last three weeks have filed for unemployment and say, i cant go on like this. We do have to start to get back to work. We do have to start to open some of those shops that im sure are closed around south bend. What do you say to those people who are hurting, not from the virus but because theyre not working . Well, thats right. We spent the last decade getting back on our feet economically in this community, and so many cities and communities have similar story, only to have this blow. Of course, general mcchrystal is very much speaking speaking my language when he points to the role that mayors on the ground player, whether it is my successor here on the ground in south bend or mayors around the country that i have been speaking to who really are not waiting on the white house, not waiting for answers to come from there, but have to figure out how to get things done. What we see right now is a situation where there is no date certain for when we can get back some semblance of normal. What worries me is a false choice shaping up. Were seeing some politicians say, look, either weve got to accept more death and destruction or the economic destruction will continue, so maybe we should just tolerate the more loss of life and get through it, not recognizing that thats economic destruction, too. Theres a way out. We dont have to choose between staying frozen forever or surrendering to allowing this virus to kill millions. The way out is to have massively increased testing and tracing of contacts. Thats how you contain a pandemic like this. What were going to need in order to achieve that is not centralized or topdown solution. It would be nice to have leadership from the white house, but at the end of the day it is going to fall to communities, to health systems, Public Health officials, to mayors and others to work out how to distribute the tests and achieve that Contact Tracing. General mcchrystal, you have said during this crisis that we shouldnt be looking at this at 50 separate fights state by state, that it should be one american fight. Of course, the president of the United States has said, hey, some of these states, they should have had ppe, they should have had ventilators, they should have had their own testing system. So he has a different view of it than you do. How do you see it right now . Is it too late to turn this into one fight . Is it too late to have a National Testing program, for example . Willie, no, not at all. In fact, we should have done it before, but the next best time to do it is right now. This is going to last for a while. And if this goes away, covid19, there will be other risks that challenge the nation. So the same sort of effort we need to make to link the communities, to pass information, to pass best practices, to pass expertise, to share equipment, to share capability is what military forces have to do to survive and to win. Pete was part of a fusion cell in afghanistan, and hes lived that. So i think weve got to Start Building that right now whether the white house supports it directly or not. You know, mayor pete, this pandemic has once again revealed fault lines in our society along racial grounds, along economic grounds. It seems poor americans, the truly disadvantaged, black americans, more likely to get this than white americans. Poor americans more likely to get this than wealthier americans, the 1 . What do we do moving forward to learn once again the lessons of this pandemic and as it will apply to our society as we move beyond the coronavirus . You know, there are a lot of weaknesses and injusticis aes w tolerated in our society. As was put, this virus reveals and exploits those weaknesses. We are seeing it when it comes to the disproportionate effect it is having on black americans, as you mentioned, lower income americans. This is not a question of the virus as it enters someone bloodstream checking to see and discriminating on race. This is because of the structures in our country that have discriminated based on race and harmed people, whether it is being relegated by red lining them to living in a neighborhood with less access to fresh food and over time developing hypertension which if you have it makes you more vulnerable to covid19 if you get it. Whether it is the fact that low income and americans of color are more likely to have lived without health insurance. There are so many examples of things that are going on that really were not tolerable in the first place, but now this virus is revealing just how unstainable they are. I will give you one more example. Some republicans were objecting to direct aid moving through congress for americans to be able to get through the crisis in terms of cash benefit. Their objection was if you were on unemployment with that kicker that they added, that might be more than you were making before in the workplace. But that level of unemployment, that was set based on what it takes to live. So if it is more than people were making, thats not an indication that the benefit was too generous. Thats a benefit that people couldnt live on the poverty wages they were making. There is no going back to the old way, and it is neither possible nor i think desirable when we finally find our way out of this state of affairs to try to turn back the clock and go to what we had before because what we had before made millions of americans vulnerable. Former mayor Pete Buttigieg and retired general Stanley Mcchrystal. Thank you both for being on the show today. General, we hope you will come back and talk to us about boston and the good work you are going to be doing there. Absolutely. All right. Up next, shes one of the greatest singers on the planet, but lady gaga is using her voice for Something Else. We sat down with the music icon to discuss an important cause that hits close to home for the oscar winner. Thats next on morning joe. This morning joe special report isolation nation is sponsored by has always inspired us and now its no different so, were here with financial strength, stability and experience you can depend on and the online tools you need because you have always set the highest standard and reaching that standard is what were made for subway is still serving the subs delicious subs made freshor and easy to get for takeout or delivery. And now, with our family takeout special, get a free footlong when you buy two. In a moment, we will bring back our experts to answer more of your questions. Many coming in about Mental Health in this crisis. Its a topic that mega superstar lady gaga is focused on. We recently spoke to her about how critical Mental Health is amid the global coronavirus pandemic. Joining us now, lady gaga. She is the curator of one world, together at home. 11time grammywinning artist and, of course, a major movie star. But today were going to talk about something that i think might be even more important to her, and that is sort of grounding yourself during these really tough times. And lady gaga, its great to talk to you about this topic. I was so moved when i heard you talking about dbt, dialectical behavioral therapy. You talked about your experience with it, your success with it. And i take it, so it really meant a lot to me. And it meant a lot to me that you wanted to normalize a conversation about Mental Health. About this type of therapy and what exactly it addresses. Why do you think it is so hard to talk about these things when, really, in fact, it has to do with our overall health. You know, i think that theres been a stigma around Mental Health for a long time because its invisible in a lot of ways. It seems less accessible to people. If you break your arm and you can see bones sticking out, its very clear to say my arm, i need help. But if theres something happening in the brain and or perhaps youre having what i have, which is a neuropathic response where my brain feels stress or is experiencing posttraumatic stress from a previous traum ai have a neuropathic reaction that then is a Chain Reaction in my body, and dialectical behavioral therapy was part of saving my life. I mean, it was very, very helpful, and i actually think that its something that should be really looked at, especially during this time because the conceptually, its not something thats bounded by social or economic constraints. I know that you have a real heart especially now for Health Care Workers. Youre focused on helping Health Care Workers. I spoke earlier today to a dbt therapist who said that shes the most concerned about the Mental Health care crisis for our Health Care Workers after this is over because shes spoken with so many of them who have been there who have been taking care of people who have died, and its a horrific, shocking process that they have to watch. And they have to watch these people dying alone, separated from their loved ones and their family. And she believes this is going to be a Mental Health crisis for our Health Care Workers for years to come. Talk about that. Talk about the challenges that theyre facing right now. Before this Global Pandemic, Mental Illness was already a world health crisis. And this is only going to make it worse for everyone. But, yes, the people on the front lines are being helped by the medical community. Like i said, its folding into itself to help itself on all fronts, and i commend not only those who are sleeping in their cars because theyre doctors and they dont want to infect their families or their patients as well as nurses who are doing the same, but i also commend those psychiatrists. And i commend those Nurse Practitioners and those therapists that are leaving their numbers at hospitals and saying at the end of your shift, if you need to talk, im here for you. What i believe about dialectable behavioral therapy, it provides a framework that you can look up online and it helps to problem solve. It helps teach you how to problem solve during times of crisis when and you can see the full interview with lady gaga on our site, joe. Msnbc. Com. And on saturday, watch lady gaga, Paul Mccartney and taylor swift and many more join forces for one world together at home. A Global Entertainment special to support the World Health Organization and the global fight to end covid19. Watch it this saturday at 8 00 p. M. Eastern right here on msnbc. We want to get to more of our viewer questions now. And specifically, on the Mental Health aspect of this pandemic that we were discussing with lady gaga. Back with uepidemiologist, dr. Ann remoyne, dr. Dave campbell, dan hilferty, sponsor of this special hour of morning joe, and lets bring in dr. Jillian galen, psychology instructor at harvard medical school. And she, too, does dbt. Let me ask you about the Health Care Crisis upon us now. We were talking to lady gaga about with health care providers. But also the Health Care Crisis that will be upon us even after this pandemic passes. What does it look like . Yeah, i think we can really we can expect a surge in a Mental Health care crisis. Right now many of the states, including massachusetts were in the middle of our surge for covid cases. I think what were going to see probably in the next month is a huge, huge need for Mental Health care for these frontline workers, First Responders who are really being profoundly impacted as they take care of these patients. I think its going to overwhelm systems if we dont start really preparing for this and mobilizing. Because on top of the Mental Health care the Health Care Workers and First Responders, were looking at needing to take care of so many people that have been profoundly impacted by losing loved ones, by losing multiple family members, by social isolation. And by unemployment. Were going to start to see huge numbers of acute stress disorder. Ptsd, depression, anxiety and substance abuse. And were already starting to see the beginning of this. Its a huge need. This question was submitted via twitter. I believe honestly every Single Health care policy must include Mental Health visits for at least three months. This kind of worldwide disaster shakes the ground beneath every idea we hold. How do we get that for everyone . Dan . Well, mika, thats a key question. Studies show that 1 out of 2 americans at some point in their life address some type of behavioral, mental or substance disorder issue. The Blue Cross Blue Shield association did a study of millennials of six of the top disease states are behavioral in nature. Number one, we need to break down the stigma around talking about reaching out for help for behavioral issues. Number two, we need to make sure theres full integration between physical and Behavioral Health. How can you have a body thats whole and healthy if you have a broken spirit, a broken mind or some other disorder. So what we need to do, what we are doing, what the blues are doing across the country is truly integrating care between physical and behavioral, putting resources in place to make sure that those on the physical side can see something in someone and get them the help they need on the Behavioral Health side. We independents are making a significant Capital Infusion into our company to develop Behavioral Health, the products and services. Dr. Ramoyne. Lleyton on twitter asks something on the minds of a lot of people. Will social distancing end incrementally . What will the stages be . Will it vary widely by location . How long will it be until very large gatherings are allowed again . To put a finer point on it . Even when people go back, the office will look different. Restaurants will look different. Life will look different. Well, this is a question that everybody has right now. And we the answer is, its going to were going to have to wait and see what happens. You know, the idea of social distancing is so important because right now we dont have a vaccine. We dont have therapeutics and we dont have really good testing in place thats widespread for everyone. And as a result, social distancing is like the blunt instrument we can use to make sure that we slow the spread of the virus. Now there are a lot of different opinions about whether or not we should be phasing out social distancing and how we should do it. And i think the most important thing is we have to let the data speak. We absolutely have to make sure that we are using science and data to be able to dictate how and when we do this. And its true. Life is