Transcripts For MSNBCW Melissa Harris-Perry 20140323

about 575 miles north of the area where the objects were located. just yesterday, officials released an image from a chinese satellite, showing a large object measuring approximately 72 feet x 42 feet, floating in a remote area of the indian ocean off australia. that object is about 74 miles southwest of the possible debris captured in another satellite image, revealed on thursday, by australian authorities. an international contingent of planes and ships have been scouring the area for four days now, and so far, there's been no definitive sign of the plane or the 239 people on board. but the prime minister of australia is hopeful that answers will be found soon. >> it's still too early to be definite, but, obviously, we have now had a number of very credible leads and there is increasing hope, no more than hope, no more than hope, that we might be on the road to discovering what did happen to this ill-fated aircraft. >> since the plane vanished more than two weeks ago, the pentagon has spent at least $2.5 million helping with the search operation. and the u.s. is considering a request from the malaysian government for underwater listening devices. for the latest on the search right now, nbc news correspondent, tom costello, who covers aviation, joins us now from washington. tom, give us a sense of where this latest debris was spotted. >> okay, let's go to this map then and let me get you over there. the bottom line for this, we've got now pieces that were in this area here. this was a couple of days ago, of course. we've got pieces that were in this area, that were spotted on australian slig australian satellites. another piece in this general area spotted by the chinese satellites. and now we're told that the french, in this general area, that that item spotted by the french in that general area. all of this, kind of in this area, 1,500 miles or so from perth, australia, and it is, as you know, a four-hour flight to get all the way down here to this search zone. you've then got two hours to look. and the consider the size of what they're looking for. it's about the size of -- well, it's 79 feet, if you will. let's go back to this other image here. this is the original image here that was on satellite imagery thatted we had a couple of days ago. hang on, we've got a quick gremlin in the system. okay, there we go. this was the original image from the australians last week. 79 feet is what we're told on this one. and as you can tell, it's really difficult to make out exactly what this is. now, the piece of wreckage that was discovered and identified by the chinese, that was about -- we don't have an image of it here right now, but that's about 73 feet. in fact, let's take, there you go, right there. it is very difficult to discern between this piece that was spotted by the australians and the piece that was spotted by the chinese. and now we have not yet seen what the french have provided, and we don't have the dimensions on that. but how does that relate to a 777? the wingspan for a 777 is about 200 feet across. so it is possible that we're looking at a piece of a wing, that we're looking at a piece of the fuselage. the tail, by the way, is 60 feet or so. that said, there is so much junk floating out there in the ocean, it's entirely possible it's something else. and i think is that you've got to ask yourself, with all the time that's passed now, two weeks since this plane would have gone down, would you still have big pieces of the fuselage floating or would they have sunk at this point? i think that's a real, real problematic issue. back to you. >> great, nbc news correspondent, tom costello in washington, thank. now let's turn to nbc's ian williams in perth, australia. ian, what comes next in the search for the missing plane and how much of a factor will weather be? >> reporter: hi, jonathan. well, just a short while ago, the australian marine safety authority, which is coordinating this search, came out with a statement at the end of the day, and it said nothing of significance has been found during today's search. it also said, to address your question, that they've been hampered by quite heavy fog early today, although that had cleared as the day went on. but the crucial part of that statement, delivered just a few minutes ago, is that nothing of significance was spotted today. they do now have those three satellite images to work with. it's our understanding that the french image was passed to the malaysians, who have, in turn, passed it to the australians and that now is part of the information pack, which they're using to decide which areas they will search next. now, today, there were eight airplanes out there, including one from the u.s. military, combing over an area the size of about 30,000 square miles. tomorrow, monday, those aircraft will be joined by additional aeroplanes from japan and china. the chinese presence being stepped up here. already, there are a flotilla of ships heading to that area. today, the one ship of significance was an australian military vessel, which is capable of picking up debris. but as of yet, they haven't spotted any to collect. and we should add, as well, while the prime minister was hopeful today, his deputy earlier had warned, as tom indeed did, that there's an awful lot of trash floating around down there, jonathan. >> nbc's ian williams in perth, thank you. we'll check in with you later in the program. now joining me on set is nbc aviation specialist, john cox. so given the size of the debris in the latest satellite images, do you believe that they could be related to the plane's disappearance? >> it's possible, but the fact that they're so large limits the parts of the airplane it could come from, to the fuselage or the wings. and the fuselage components typically don't float, particularly for two weeks. the wing, depending on the damage it may have sustained on impact could float, maybe not. so i'm a little skeptical because of the size of the debris itself, that we've located. i think we're going to find much smaller debris, like seat back cushions and things like that. that's going to be the telltale. >> from your perspective, those smaller pieces of debris, that's a sign that it -- well, i don't mean to say, it's a good sign that it could be from the plane. you are -- you're taking hopefulness in that we could be looking at the plane, if the debris is smaller. not the 79-foot sections. >> i think what we'll find is a fairly large number of something that is ready identifiable from the airplane. overhead bags, for example, as the overhead compartment split open. there's going to be stuff that floats out from there. and the seatback cushions, they float virtually indefinitely. if there's one, there's likely to be 10, 20, and that's a starting point. and that's the essential point, we then have a hard, fixed starting point. then you can take the ocean institute, you can take that data and backdrive a likely point of impact and that's where the underwater search can commence. >> a big part of the puzzle is the black box, and as we've been talking about over these last weeks, a third of the battery life of the black box is again. how will the search be hampered if the time, i guess it's 30 days, comes and goes? >> well, the design life of the battery is 30 days and we're about halfway through that. it certainly would help if we had underwater devices and they picked up that pinging, or it's actually a clicking sound. if they pick it up, wonderful. as with the air france 447 accident, it is, i think, more likely that we -- that those batteries will end up being depleted and we'll have to find the wreckage and then slowly and carefully locate those recorders and then recover them. >> john cox, thank you. we'll check back with you later in the program. but up next, the supreme court, religious freedom, and birth control. they're all about to meet and the result could be historic. it's more than just a meal, it's meow mix mealtime. with wholesome ingredients and irresistible taste, it's the only one cats ask for by name. humans -- we are beautifully imperfect creatures, living in an imperfect world. that's why liberty mutual insurance has your back, offering exclusive products like optional better car replacement, where, if your car is totaled, we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. call... and ask an insurance expert about all our benefits today, like our 24/7 support and service, because at liberty mutual insurance, we believe our customers do their best out there in the world, so we do everything we can to be there for them when they need us. plus, you could save hundreds when you switch -- up to $423. call... today. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? 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[ male announcer ] ...is you! the amazing spider-man 2 delivered by the united states postal service. it's been nearly two years since the supreme court issued its landmark decision affirming the constitutionality of the affordable care act. the court's june 2012 ruling upholding the aca's individual mandate, a key provision of the law, was a major victory in the history of legal challenges that have plagued the law since it was first passed in 2010. but this week, the affordable care act is facing the yet another high-stakes constitutional hurdle before the supreme court. on tuesday, the justices will hear 90 minutes of arguments in two cases, one of which, sebelius versus hobby lobby, is the court's most closely watched case of the year. at issue is the question of whether or not employers can use religious objections to deny employees the contraceptive cover required by the aca. the plaintiff, hobby lobby is a multi-billion dollar chain of craft stores owned by a devout christian family that sued on the grounds that the contraceptive man date burdens the company's beliefs. but it would be the company, not the family, that bans contraceptions. so they're asking to extend to it the same religious protections guaranteed to churches or individuals. which is why a ruling in their favor could have wide-ranging consequences. but it's asking that the supreme court -- because it's asking the supreme court -- asking that the supreme court make a finding that no court has ever made. if the court agrees with hobby lobby's argument, it would be holding for the first time ever that corporations are entitled to the first amendment right of the free exercise of religion. that decision could potentially open the floodgates for corporations to challenge federal protections on everything, from lbgt discrimination to childhood immunization requirements, all based on a religious objection. and what's more? a ruling in favor of hobby lobby would also mean the court agrees with hobby lobby's completely inaccurate beliefs about contraception. hobby lobby is specifically objecting to covering the emergency contraceptive pills, plan b. and ella, and intrauterine devices, commonly known as iuds. it is based on their belief that they are used to end pregnancy. except that belief is just plain wrong. because all three reproductive health options opposed by hobby lobby or contraceptives, not agents to induce abortion. it's basic sex ed 101. contraceptives prevent fertilization from even happening. so there's no pregnancy to begin with. and, up until 2012, when hobby lobby first decided to file the lawsuit, two of the three contraceptive methods were already covered under the company's health plan. in addition to its claim of first amendment religious protections, the company is also arguing for protection under a 20-year-old federal statute called the 1993 religious freedom restoration act, or rfra. the statute says the government must have a compelling interest to burden a person's free exercise of religion. and hobby lobby's claim in this case is that, yes, when it comes to religious freedoms, at least, corporations are people too, my friend. joining me now is democratic strategist and media consultant, john rolling, democratic strategi strategist, tara doudel, i ri i carmon, who is a report up on msnbc.com right now, and "daily news" column -- "daily news" -- i'm sorry. daily beast columnist and former special assistant to president george w. bush, ron christie. everybody, welcome. irin, i'm going to start about you, wrote about rfra. the act was originally supported and passed by democrats and opposed by conservatives. >> right, the irony of this is that in the early '90s, when rfra was first proposed, and it was proposed in response to a case, a supreme court decision, that was written by justice antonin scalia, of all people, that involves payote. so when everyone was talking about religious freedom, they were talking about how to force the government to violate their beliefs on an individual basis. so someone not getting unemployment benefits, because they spoked peyote as part of a religious exercise, that was the case that really galvanized everybody. the idea was protecting minorities who were unpopular, whose religion was marginalized from public life. nobody was talking about corporations. nobody was talking about infringing on the rights of third parties to have the same access to health care as other people. >> and even, i think, congressman nabler, from new york, who was part of rfra from the beginning said, this was not part of the plan, ever, when we were coming up with this. but, ron, what about the decision could mean for corporations. the business community is not rooting for hobby lobby to win, because a decision holding that a corporation and its owners are the same could expose ceos and their corporations and the members of the boards to lawsuits. >> that's right. and i think what you found in this particular case, coming out of citizens united, in this particular case, in citizens united, a corporation was deemed as being an individual under the first amendment. hobby lobby is trying to make the same argument here. we are a company of conscience. we believe we should be afforded the same protections. i agree with what they're trying to do and i'll tell you why. the fda allows 20 contraceptives to be permitted around the aca. hobby lobby is objecting to four. and your lead into this story is exactly right. these aren't contraceptives, these are mechanisms that will prevent people from becoming pregnant. that's a very important distinction to make. so hobby lobby isn't saying, we shouldn't provide contraception to our employees, we're specifically objecting to these four procedures that are in place. >> but i think the entire point of the affordable care act, including this as preventative care, is women have paid more out of pocket for health care than for men. we have a problem with unintended pregnancy in this country. many people object to the abortion right that is as a result of that unintended pregnancy rate, and if we make it easier for people to get very effective forms of contraception, we're going to treat women's health care just like any other health care. >> i agree with what you're saying, but this is the whole root of why people have an objection with the aca. for the first time, the government is compelling individuals, compelling a corporation to provide -- >> it's a private insurance company, to have minimum coverage requirements. >> insurance is different. i'll toss it back to you, jonathan. >> you guys can keep going. i want to take a look at a recent nbc/"wall street journal" poll. and it asks, a good idea or bad idea. now, while 35% of americans think obamacare is good idea, 53% think employers should not be exempt from covering birth control. so, we may not be in love with obamacare, but we are pretty clear that women should get birth control as part of their health coverage. how much influence do you think the public will have on the court's decision? >> well, i think we should talk about the pandora's box this decision is going to open up -- >> i'm going to get to that next. >> i mean, in terms of companies being liable, like you referenced. if i was a small business, like i am, and everybody else around the country, i would with against this. there's now a shield from lawsuits. your company is liable, you're not liable, in lawsuits. not to mention, a company or an employer imposing a political agenda on the employees. we have laws on the books that you can't force your employees to vote a certain way. laws on the books that you can't force employees to contribute to campaigns. so, you know, you're the boss at work, but not the boss of people's lives. and i think there's a huge legal and political pandora's box we could open with this decision. i want to come to that next, and tara, we'll come to you next. we need 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[ tapping ] sounds good. campbell's healthy request. m'm! m'm! good.® today marks the fourth anniversary of the signing of the affordable care act by president obama. but take a look behind me at the clock ticking down to the end of the law's open enrollment period. with that deadline swiftly drawing near, the aca has a lot more numbers to worry about than its increasing age. like this one, for instance. march 31st. that's the last day americans have to sign up for health insurance or face a fine of as much as 1% of their taxable income. then there's this number. 5 million. that's how many americans have already signed up for health insurance under one of the aca's health exchanges. which falls far short of this number, 7 million. that's the original target the white house had hoped to reach before the glitchy healthca healthcare.gov launch pumped the l brakes on the new law. and 2 million, to reach the white house's goal number of signups, 2 million will have just a week to make a mad 11th hour dash for health coverage. it's likely if you're among that number, you're among this number, the 48% of americans, who according to a recent nbc news/"wall street journal" poll, say they're more likely to vote for a democrat who supports fixing and keeping the health care law, which is why democrats in the u.s. senate are paying close attention to this number, 6. republicans need only pick up 6 seats to snatch away the democratic majority in the senate. tara, i am coming to you first. but democrats up for re-election this year, and in particular red-state dems, there's just though running away from obamacare. so why not run to it? why not run on it? embrace it. >> exactly. and i've been saying that, i've been beating this drum for years, actually. here's the issue. there's another poll that came out, with the questions asked a little slightly different. and it said, fixing it, keeping the law and fixing it, and keeping the law flat-out as it is. two out of three americans say they would keep the law as it is, or keep it just with some modifications. that's a stunning and unprecedented number. here's the problem for dems. if they choose to run against this law, it doesn't matter. the republicans are going to paint them as having been supporters of this law, as having been cheerleaders of this law. it doesn't matter what they say. the republicans are going to attack them on it anyway. it is pointless to run against it. and also this other strategy that some are trying to use, by saying, oh, there's so many errors and i'm going to fix it. that's not a winning strategy. because you don't start by defeating yourself. you don't start with a defeatist approach, saying, this is bad and i'm going to fix it. you start from a place of strength. if you look at how the individual elements of the law polls, they all poll very well. talk about those. >> well, let me read a statement from the president. he talks about some in a statement released today, some of those elements that are very popular. the president's statement says, more americans with insurance have gained new benefits and protections. the 100 million americans who have gained the right to free preventative care like mammograms and contraception, the 8 million seniors who have saved thousands of dollars on the precipitation drugs, and the untold number of families who won't be driven into bankruptcy by out-of-pocket costs. 3 million young americans have been able to stay on their family plans, and over the past five and a half months alone, more than 5 million americans have signed up to buy private health insurance plans on healthcare.gov, plans that can no longer discriminate against pre-existing conditions. so we know that even though obamacare doesn't poll well, people really like the things that the president mentioned about the law. >> no, they don't. >> what do you mean, they don't? >> what don't they like? >> take one particular thing. the president talks about "free" preventative care. there's nothing free. their tax dollar is paying for that. it's not free. number two, the president says 5 million people have signed up for that. the president has no documentation for the amount of people who have actually enrolled in the program that are paying. that is projected to be millions less than that. the number you're talking about at the end of march 31st, the total enrollment people, that number will be far less than 5 million. probably somewhere in the 3 million range. and finally, i would add, this white house has never come clean with the american people about everything that the law was supposed to do. here we are, four years later. it didn't drive down costs, it didn't actually -- >> whoa! >> driving down cost is not an overnight process. >> oh, okay. >> come on, ron. >> it takes a long time for preventative care to actually, you know, stem emergency room visits -- >> i agree with that. >> for chronic conditions. >> but we were told it was going to bend the cost curve, we were going to cover more people, and of course it was going to cost less. none of those three things -- >> respond, a minute left. >> i want to jump in here. number one, the medicaid expansion, that 5 million number doesn't include the people who have signed up through the medicaid expansion, through the states who have agreed to it. that's number one. so there are more people. number two, people who are under the age of 26, who can stay on their parent's plan. young people, who would otherwise be uninsured, those folks who have signed up through that. also, the small business tax credits. tax credits for nonprofit agencies to give insurance to their employees. then there are those numbers. so that's not true, to say that that number is low. it's actually probably going to be higher. >> tara -- >> no -- >> actually -- >> ron, sorry. we don't have anytime left. so, up next, the fight, and it's a fight, over medicaid expansion. is it sparking a progressive revival in the deep south? but first, here's the latest on the search for malaysia airlines flight 370. authorities say a french satellite has captured images of debris floating near the search area in the indian ocean off the coast of australia. we are still awaiting the release of those images. this is the third set of satellite images announced in recent days. it comes just one day after officials revealed an image of a large floating object captured by a chinese satellite. that object was spotted about 74 miles southwest of the spot where a few days ago, another satellite captured similar images of floating debris. ships and planes from more than two dozen countries, including the u.s., are involved in the search. but, so far, there's no definitive sign of the plane or the 239 people who vanished more than two weeks ago. we'll have more on this ongoing mystery in our next hour, including the latest on the passengers' families. ameriprise asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you outlive your money? 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[ bell rings ] [ female announcer ] by their second kid, every mom is an expert and more likely to choose luvs than first time moms. and luvs with nightlock offer our largest absorbent area ever. they lock away wetness better than huggies, even overnight. live, learn, and get luvs. we've been talking about the political debate around the affordable care act, but this week, the loudest voices on the aca in the georgia state capital building weren't politicians. on tuesday, that honor went to these folks, a diverse group of activists who were protesting the state's refusal to participate in the aca's medicaid expansion. in all, 39 people were arrested during the protest, including reverend raphael warknock, the pastor of ebenezer church, a job once held by martin luther king jr. and sr. this is what he had to say as he was being arrested. >> this is really a small price to be, given the fact that there are a lot of people who are handcuffed to poverty, and unable to get basic health care in the richest country in the world. >> the protesters held a sit-in in the capital, just outside the office of georgia governor, nathan deal whose signature would make into law two bills passed tuesday into the georgia legislature that would make the expansion of medicare in the state almost impossible. ron, help me understand this. the georgia legislature the trying to end any possibility of medicaid expansion. you also have the governor trying to overturn a law passed by ronald reagan, president reagan, that says emergency rooms cannot turn away people in need of emergency medical treatment. so why not just help struggling families by giving them coverage, rather than denying them care. >> when you look at the affordable care act, one of the things in the decision versus sebelius, the supreme court held by a 7-2 margin, that compelling states to provide expansion of medicaid was unconstitutional. they said the only way that the aca would survive is if the states, that the individuals in these states had the ability to decide whether or not they were going to expand it. so i understand what the pastor and what the folks in the majority who were upset about the fact that the state has elected not to expand medicaid. but if they were compelled to do so, the affordable care act would have fallen on its face, because it would no longer have been valid. so if the folks in georgia don't want to expand medicaid, they have no legal right to do so. >> just because it's legally right doesn't mean it's morally right. >> and they're shooting themselves in the foot. this isn't just about providing more health care to more people. there's a huge economic advantage to. hospitals are failing. hospitals have one of the biggest economic impacts on a community, particularly a small community, and all the businesses that depend on those hospitals. there's a huge economic, a income, and a compassionate argument, which i think the moral mondays group is exfocuse on. >> there are a couple of headlines about hospital closings in georgia. this is what think progress, which is regressive, had to say. fourth hospital shuts down as the state refuse medicaid expansion. meanwhile, the daily caller went with this headline. fourth georgia hospital closes due to obamacare payment cuts. so can we all agree that hospitals are being closed in georgia. >> yes. >> okay, good. >> but i want to know from the table, who's right about the reason. >> well -- >> go ahead. >> objectively speaking, the entire design of the affordable care act, you can't just take out one piece of it, and just hope the entire thing stays afloat. it becomes a sort of sinking ship when you take out one of the core parts of it. so the payments to hospitals were supposed to go down, once more people were covered on medicaid. one piece was supposed to move to the other. once you have the politics of spite, which, yes, the supreme court did say that it was constitutional, but, again, you have hundreds of thousands of people in georgia, millions of people across the country, being left out of the access to health care, that congress agreed that they should have. you know, that is the point at which, you know, it really becomes -- both leaving certain people out of the political process, low-income people, people who have fallen to this coverage gap, in states where the bar for medicaid is already very, very high. and you also have a way to kind of say, look, obamacare isn't working. hospitals are closing. it is sheer politics. >> john and tara? >> exactly. that's exactly right. so what's happening is, the republicans are trying to sabotage the law. they're trying to take out pieces of the law that will cause the law to be unsuccessful. now, the tlurz in that is not president obama, ultimately. the loser will be americans. because a big part of this law that does not get talked about enough is the whole point of this, is to actually improve american's health. actually improve the delivery of health care. and in doing so, if we are healthier, costs, by definition, will go down. if people don't have access to care, they will be less healthy. it affects education, it affects so many elements of our economy. and that's a part of the law we will have to have a much longer debate on, that we can talk about how it actually makes people's health better. >> and it's going to take a very long time for those outcomes to be seen by everyone. it's going to take a whole lot longer than four years. as the aca open enrollment deadline nears, we wan to hear from you. msnbc is answering your questions about the affordable care act, and sharing testimonies from the community at my healthcare.msnbc.com. you can read stories from others across the country and share your own, and on social media, tell us how the aca will affect you and your family, using #myhealthcare. up next, do you know what passed the georgia legislature thursday night? simply put, you will not believe what passed the georgia legislature thursday night. ♪ [ cellphones beeping ] ♪ [ cellphone rings ] hello? 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[ click ] even protective suits. staples. make more happen. blocking medicaid expansion isn't the only thing georgia lawmakers have been working on. the state senate was in session until midnight on thursday, when the legislative session officially ended. and some of the most anticipated and controversial bills were left until the late hours of the night. a little after 8:00 p.m., this happened. >> earlier today, we passed legislation that provides a mechanism for testing a welfare recipients for drug problems. >> which is one way of saying that newly passed house bill 772 requires drug testing of welfare recipients and takes away food stamps, you know, public assistance that allows some of our fellow citizens to eat, from individuals who do not pass those drug tests. the bill says that a drug test is required, quote, at any time a reasonable suspicion exists, including, but not limited to an applicant or recipient's demeanor. and what exactly constitutes suspicious demeanor? well, it leaves that up to interpretation. the legislature also passed house bill 714, which makes some seasonal school workers like bus drivers, ineligible for unemployment when school is out. and they agreed to a final version of house bill 60, which removed restrictions on carrying guns in bars, and allows places of worship to decide on allowing guns inside their premises. if these bills receive governor nathan deal's signature, they will be the law of the land in georgia. and it is these types of laws, in addition to the state's refusal to accept medicaid expansion, that is fueling the moral mondays movement now in georgia. joining our panel now via remote from atlanta is one of the leaders of that moral monday movement, tim franzen. tim, i understand you want to respond to something you heard before the commercial break. >> that's right. it's great to be on the show, i overheard ron christie say if georgians want to refuse medicaid expansion, we have the right to do so. and i just want to say that the overwhelming majority of georgians want medicaid expansion. that's not a poll that's been published that says otherwise. we have 65,000 uninsured georgians, whose only form of health care is going to the emergency center. and instead of dealing with the problems that are in the aca, our governor is not only saying that he's going to refuse medicaid expansion, but that now he wants to little how much care people can get at emergency centers, while we're the fifth most uninsured state, 20% of our, you know, residents are uninsured. we are approaching third world health care conditions here. it is literally a nightmare. people are dying every day as a result of the governor's decision not to expand medicaid. and georgias want it. so, i just want to make it clear that most of us want medicaid expansion. if it was an election, it would be landslide on the side of medicaid expansion. we need it. people are dying every day. it's not a right or a left issue. it's a right or wrong issue. it's immoral to refuse medicaid expansion. >> so, tim, moral mondays, georgia, has been following these bills since november. and you were there on the last night of the senate legislative session. what was your reaction to the bills that ended up passing. >> well, you know, there is an exciting energy. things are changing in the south, the demographics are changing. it's inevitable that these red states are going to turn blue. so right now it feels like the folks that are out of touch, people that have ruled for decades, are in their last gasp. and they know it, and they're afraid, and instead of getting with the times, they are trying to, in their last gasp, while they still have power, turn the clock back 50 years in georgia. and that's really what happened thursday night, is just the most regressive bills in my lifetime passed. >> so, john, let me ask you this. is this going to provide model legislation for other states, particularly in the south, what's happening in georgia? >> well, a lot of these koch brothers-inspired bills have migrated around. and i mean, it's interesting, when you talk about moral mondays, i mean, i think we need to ship some what would jesus do bracelets down to the georgia legislature. because when you talk about some of these drug testing bills, talk about these other things that are more driven by hate, it seems like, than policy, there was an old saying they used to say in atlanta, because it was growing so fast, we're a city too busy to hate. and it seems like this legislature is too busy, too focused on hate right now. >> you know, irin, john just talked about the drug testing issue. it makes me wonder, should we be concerned about the language in the drug testing bill about reasonable suspicion about someone's demeanor as a pretense for drug testing, for benefits? >> i think you're absolutely right to flag that, because we all know that that is a code word that often is a pretext for racist singling out of certain people. we've seen in other states that have done this kind of drug testing of welfare recipients that it is -- that they don't find anything unusual, they don't find a rate that is higher than the general population. it is just a way to stigmatize and surveil people who are on public assistance. >> tim, we have less than a minute left and i want to come back to you to end this conversation. are there other bills from this session, that moral mondays georgia has been focused on and is concerned about? >> virtually every bill that you named. i mean, with 714, the same bus drivers that protected children that were stuck on buses during our ice storm are now having their unemployment stripped away from them. we believe that that is morally wrong. if we're going to drug test anybody and have their job on the line, it should be the legislatures that are passing these laws. not folks that are struggling to survive every day. so virtually every bill that you named, it shows the crisis of economic priority that we're facing here in georgia. >> and on that note, tim franzen, coming to us from atlanta, thank you so much. everyone, hold on for me for a moment. after the break, you know about the protests in georgia. you know about the protests in north carolina. but is there now a renewed progressive movement all throughout the south? that's next. 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john, i'm going to start with you. because the south is undergoing large demographic changes. and i'm going to put this on the screen. for example, 10 of the 12 states with the largest hispanic growth from 2000 to 2010 were located in the south. we have the map there on the screen. and as we know that latino voters in 2012 voted overwhelmingly for president obama and for re-election. and so, it leads to the question, will these demographic trends impact the possibility, possibility, of political change in the south, in that region. >> those demographic trends, and republicans now being in power, and a lot of those state legislatures and governors and people getting a taste of what it means. a lot of them got in because people voted against something, as opposed to, they voted for their agenda. but demographically, i think sometimes progressives in the democratic party wants to write off the south, sometimes it's tough to win races down there. when you look at it demographically, the south will always come back. 20 to 30% of the population of every state and every district is minority. and that's growing in terms of african-americans, there's migration back to the south in terms of hispanics, more and more people, and that's where a lot of the demographic shift is. the south will come back, absolutely. >> tara, will the south, well, rise again? >> i knew you were going to say that. i think the south will rise again for progressives. but here's what we need to do. i'm actually kind of happy that -- and this is going to be unpopular for me to say -- that some of these laws are being advanced. because people had given up. we weren't seeing the pushback from democrats, from progressives, the way that we see it from conservatives. conservatives have been talking about the affordable care act for four years. like, they have not stopped fighting the affordable care act. it's been litigated, it's been legislated, and they're still fighting it. democrats have a tendency to once things don't work out, to kind of pack our bags and go home. and that is not a winning strategy. we have to be consistent and we have to be aggressive. and if these moouchts continue to be assistant and aggressive and people understand what's at stake, which i think these laws are making them understand, then we will see the south come back. >> and i think, also, democrats -- excuse me. democrats have a tendency to sit out midterm elections -- >> and local. >> and local elections. if we had a time machine to go back to the middle of 2010 and say to democrats, your entire agenda, not just nationally, but also at the state level, is going to be unwound by what's going to happen in state legislators if you ignore them, seeing people out at state legislatures getting involved at the local level, i think is enormously inspiring. and they're reclaiming the moral mantel from republicans, who have used this word all the time. they're saying, it's moral to give people access to health care. i think that's revolutionary. >> tim franzen is still in atlanta. and tim, i'm going to give you, actually, the last question, since we're talking about whether the south will rise again, for progressives. will georgia turn blue anytime soon? >> well, these terrible laws have brought people together that have been in their organizational silos, from those silos, into the streets, working together in a way that we haven't before. our survival depends on it. and so, yeah, people are excited. there's a new idea and the changing demographics make it inevitable that we're going to take back the state. it's not going to happen in two weeks. it's going to take us years to reshape the political landscape. and that's why we say, this is not a moment, this is a movement. and it's going to take a lot of work, but we're committed, we're in it for the long haul, we're looking at the long view, and, you know, this moral monday is just a beginning in georgia, and so we put a spotlight in georgia, our next step is to organize around the state. we've got elections in november. our legislative session, again, in january, and we're going to be ready. >> tim, i've got to cut you off there, because we have to go. thank you so much for coming to us from atlanta. also, thank you, john, tara, irin, and ron. coming up next, retirement at risk. no matter what your age, this is the information you need to know. plus, the one and only misty copeland. more nerdland at the top of the hour. i used to think about bribing her, but i think i've found a better way. i wash her favorite sheep pajamas in tide plus downy, so they're cozier than ever. she wants to put on her pj's as soon as she gets home from school. and a sleeping daughter means a date with my dvr. i was just faking it. you were?! are you kidding me?! are you kidding me? 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[ applause ] biotene -- for people who suffer from dry mouth. welcome back. i'm jonathan capehart in for melissa harris-perry. we begin this hour with the latest on malaysian airlines flight 370, which took off on march 8th from kuala lumpur, and has been missing ever since. earlier today, the malaysian transport industry indicated that they had received, according to a statement, new images by a french satellite, images which we are waiting to be released by the australian maritime safety authority, showing potential objects in the southern search zone. according to the associated press, one malaysian official claims that the images were photographed on friday. now, we should emphasize that just what these images show at this point remains unclear. also, there has been no confirmation, as of yet, whether or not the possible debris spotted by a chinese satellite last week off the coast of australia was a part of the missing boeing 777. the object, measuring approximately 72 feet by 42 feet was found along one of two possible routes that investigators theorized that flight 370 could have taken. another lead, one which investigators still feel is their strongest, came from australian prime minister, tony abbott, when he revealed thursday that two other similarly-sized objects, found floating in the ocean about 1,400 miles southwest of the city of perth. on saturday, the royal new zealand air force, two chartered civil actor, and two merchant ships supported the search area in an area that encompassed more than 32,000 miles. they were searching along with aircraft from several other countries, but the search has concluded for today. australian prime minister tony abbott in papua new guinea said earlier that these search efforts would continue as long as they needed to know what happened. >> we owe it to the people on board the plane, we owe it to their grieving families, we owe it to the governments of the countries concerned to do everything we can, to discover as much as we can about the fate of mh 370. >> the grieving families abbott mentioned have been waiting 16 days for answers. that's 16 days to worry, hope, agonize, and grow progressively more angry, as we saw yesterday many beijing. >> we are here, waiting for you 40 days. we want to know what happened, what the reality is. >> some families are now receiving insurance payments, due to international law known as the montreal convention. malaysia airlines is required to make some advanced payment to families of the passengers even though the fate of the plane and those on board still remains unknown. at least one family member, the mother of american passenger phillip wood, made clear she is still looking for definitive answers. >> we're not going to believe anything until we get it from an official. and so we're hopeful. we remain hopeful. of course, you know, this is another new twist. i want to know. one way or the other, i want to know. >> joining me now from washington, with the latest in the search of flight 370 is nbc news correspondent, tom costello. >> well, image the heartbreak for those family members, you know, you've got a child on this plane, that's been missing for 14, 16 days, a spouse, a parent. it is, as you might image, gut wrenching. let's take a minute. let's do a deeper dive, if we can, of the chinese satellite image. we are still waiting on the french satellite image that we are told they picked up in the last couple of days, showing something, some sort of debris. we don't have any better resolution than that. if you're looking at that at home, thinking, what is that? well, that's our question too. 73 feet, is what we're told how long this particular piece is. it's very difficult to make out, to figure out what could be 73 feet long. well, let me go to another screen here. i want to show you the 777. this is malaysian airlines -- pardon my back -- this is the malaysian airlines 777. if you were to turn this plane upsidedown, just like that, so we're belly up, now let's take a look at what would be the wingspan. the wingspan on this plane is about 200 feet. so that should give you a sense, okay, is it possible that that 73-foot piece is coming from the wingspan? yes, that's possible. could it come from the fuselage here? the fuselage of a 777 is about, more or less, about 205 feet. so, could it be something inside either the fuselage or the wingspan that would be 73? the trouble is, look at the shape of that size. it's really hard to make something out that would be a 73-foot chunk. and here's another problem. if it's from the fuselage, this is essentially a tube. and once a tube fills with water, it sinks. the other problem, the wing themselves are loaded with fuel, right? so if the fuel leaks out, if there's nothing left in those cavities, then you have a vacuum, you have an empty space, and in theory, they would fill with water, and they would sink. so this is why, now, more than two weeks after this plane went missing, if it went down in the south indian ocean, it's hard to figure out what piece could still be in tact that is 73 feet. doesn't mean it isn't possible, but it really kind of adds to the mystery. jonathan, back to you. >> nbc's tom costello in washington, thank you. now i want to turn to nbc news correspondent, ian williams in perth, australia. ian william, what are you hearing from the ground there? >> hi, jonathan. well, all the aircraft that were involved in today's search have now returned to base here in perth. and in a brief statement, the australian maritime authority that's coordinating this said they found nothing of significance. they also said they were, again, hampered by bad weather, thick fog earlier today, although that did clear later in the day. interestingly, each aircraft, and there were eight that went out there today, was carrying a team of spotters. they are relaying increasingly on eyeballs, looking for these pieces of debris. although many of these aircraft are packed with some of the most sophisticated equipment you can imagine, they are now flying low, and looking for these pieces of debris, as the most effective way of following up on those satellite images. and, of course, when they're doing that, that's when the weather really comes into play. now, tomorrow, monday, the search will be stepped up. and they will have at their disposal those three sets of satellite images. the french now having provided theirs to the malaysians, who have passed them down here to the australians. tomorrow, those eight aircraft, which include an american military aircraft, will be supplemented by two from china and another two from japan. so a pretty big fleet out there. also, ships now getting into the area, looking for this debris. but while we have that very positive comment, really, from the australian prime minister today, saying there was increasing hope, don't forget that his deputy, just a few hours earlier, had said, had cautioned that in this part of the indian ocean, there is an awful lot of trash, jonathan. >> nbc news correspondent, ian williams in perth, australia, thanks. back with me on set is msnbc and nbc news aviation analyst, john cox. so, john, this morning we're learning of another satellite sighting of debris. does this suggest that crews are at least searching in the right spot? >> well, we don't know what that debris is. we certainly have the evidence that has been turned up by the satellites the that they need to check, they need to run down, but whether this is the right area or not, we'll have to wait until we either see the debris or conclude that it's, that it sank. >> now, there's a massive search, multi-national search effort underway by land, by sea, by air. what's the most critical piece of equipment being employed right now? >> well, the fact that they are increasing the number of people on the airplane to visually look for the airplane and some of the airplane have enhanced vision or an optical systems, those are going to be very, very important. so, the visual aspects, was not only looking for these large pieces, but more importantly, really the smaller pieces, that's what i think is going to show us the debris field and that will end up letting us narrow the search for the main body of the wreckage. >> and if, indeed, these satellite photos show dprebris from the plane, the debris has been in the water for a long time. will it still provide clues to investigators? >> absolutely. we've seen in other maritime accidents where the debris has been in the water for some period of time, it still provides information. did the airplane come apart in flight, did it hit the water, impact? you can tell that by the way the metal is actually broken. those kinds of physical evidence are things that the investigators are going to look for. once we find the main body of the wreckage, is there soot? where are the recorders? we recover those. all of this. so, yeah, the investigators are getting data. >> john cox, thank you. when we come back, we are shifting gears to a very important issue. whether you are a boomer, engge or millennial, the retirement you may be dreaming of in the near future or distant future, could be a fantasy. no matter what your age now, you need to know about what might be coming. like two deals in one. salesperson #2: actually, getting a great car with 42 highway miles per gallon makes it like two deals in one. salesperson #1: point is there's never been a better time to buy a jetta tdi clean diesel. avo: during the first ever volkswagen tdi clean diesel event get a great deal on a jetta tdi. it gets 42 highway miles per gallon. and get a $1,000 fuel reward card. it's like two deals in one. volkswagen has the most tdi clean diesel models of any brand. hurry in and get a $1,000 fuel reward card and 0.9% apr for 60 months on tdi models. i'm bethand i'm michelle. and we own the paper cottage. it's a stationery and gifts store. anything we purchase for the paper cottage goes on our ink card. so you can manage your business expenses and access them online instantly with the game changing app from ink. we didn't get into business to spend time managing receipts, that's why we have ink. we like being in business because we like being creative, we like interacting with people. so you have time to focus on the things you love. ink from chase. so you can. i have a cold with this annoying runny nose. 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[ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast-acting antihistamine. oh, what a relief it is! plus has a fast-acting antihistamine. you've reached the age where you know how things work. this is the age of knowing what needs to be done. so why let erectile dysfunction get in your way? talk to your doctor about viagra. 20 million men already have. ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain; it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long- term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. this is the age of taking action. viagra. talk to you doctor. when it comes to the issue of pensions for public sector workers, the latest headlines illustrate there is a big problem when it comes to funding this vital retirement resource. and that is a problem because of the number of retired people relying on this defined monthly benefit, that was supposed to be guaranteed for the remainder of their lives. for americans who are 65 and older, defined benefit pensions make up nearly 18% of their current income, while security makes up almost 37%. what is important to note that as many as 30% of all state and local workers are not covered by the social security system, because back when south carolina was created this 1935 by fdr, all state and local government employees across the country were prohibited from participating in the program. now, that's because there were constitutional concerns about the federal government leveeing a tax on state governments. amendments to the social security act in the 1950s changed this, but states are not required to participate. so for those public sector workers who don't get social security, their pensions become crucial to their retirement survival. without social security, they are missing a key part of the retirement three-legged stool model, which consists of, a mention, social security, and supplemental savings. and to be hobbs, retirees may be teetering on only one of those legs, since the median total savings of older households amounts to a little more than 45,000. but that last leg on the stool isn't looking so good either. since 2011, more than 40 states have enacted some form of pension changes, but their pension liability between 2011 and 2012 increased by 24%. and the shortfalls to the state pension systems keep rising. some states owe an amount equal to or above their annual revenue. while states are scrambling to fund the holes they've dug for themselves, one is about to implode. detroit's bankruptcy plan would cut the pension plan i by 45% and 10% for police and firefighters. the city's two pension funds are urging federal judges to rush an appeal on the city's bankruptcy eligibility before detroit can get approval for its restructuring plan. the urgency was noted by one of the lawyers in the case, who wrote, the proposed plan would thrust thousands of the more than 20,000 current detroit retirees into a state of poverty from which they may never recover. and the decision in detroit could have far-reaching consequences. yes, retirees could be thrust into poverty because of slashes to their benefits, but this could also set a precedent for how cash-strapped cities deal with their pension problems. at the table, lynette khalfani cox, and arun gupta, a contributor at "the guardian," in these times, and the progressive. arun is also the founder of the occupied "wall street journal," and karen friedman, executive vice president and policy director at the pension rights center. thank you all for being here. karen, i am coming to you first. how bad is the problem that states are facing when it comes to pensions. and more importantly, how is it created? >> well, let's just put it this way. right now, there is a campaign of misinformation that's being promoted, often by some ideologues that really want to undercut pension plans in this country, that are anti-union, and will turn the whole country into a system of 401(k) plans. the fact is that retirees have been largely scapegoated. everybody is saying, okay, you know, pension plans are bankrupting cities, they're bankrupting states. but the fact of the matter is, it's untrue. the fact of the matter is, that most state and city pension plans are well funded, according to the center for retirement research at boston college. there's a few bad apples. you have illinois, you have kentucky, you have a few others, but in those situations, it's not because of the size of the retiree's benefits. it's not because of any of that. it's because state legislators have acted badly and they haven't funded the plan. i want to say something about detroit. in detroit, that situation is outrageous and it's heartbreaking for retirees. you have, the city workers gave their lifetimes to the city. you're talking about the street sweepers. you're talking about the clerks. you're talking about firefighters and police officers. they gave up wages, often contributed themselves into the pension plan, with the promise of getting a pension plan, a pension benefit that would be a lifetime guaranteed plan. in fact, these were backed by michigan state constitution, that they could never be reduced. so what ended up happening? the city and the emergency manager of detroit went in and filed bankruptcy, mostly to get out of those pension obligations. as you said before, it's outrageous right now that these pensioners are facing these huge and dramatic cuts. and at the same time, i want to just point out to you, that the bond holders, many of whom are the same financial institutions that caused the problems in detroit, they help precipitate the economic crisis in this country, they are now coming in and saying, you know what, the retirees, uh-uh. we need full restitution. we're going to take that money out of the pension plans. and that's outrageous. it's immoral. >> irun, let's talk where these contributions have come from. more than 60% is from investment returns. and you say the system should be restructured. how? >> well, i think it should be restructured by making guaranteed monthly income for all elderly people. we should double the social security payments to the elderly. that would put us on the level of france and germany. as you pointed out, about 37% of retirees' income comes from social security. in european countries, it's closer to 70%. and to those who say, it can't be done, it can be done very easily, if we lift the payroll tax gap, if we get rid of the employer tax breaks for pensions, we won't need that any longer. and then if we get rid of the home interest mortgage deduction, 75% of which goes to households who earn over $100,000 or more, we could fully fund a doubling of social security. and that would have an incredible economic benefit to all of society. >> if we look at median pension numbers, the sums are not big. so if there are slashes to these types of numbers, how can people, especially seniors, be expected to survive? >> that's really the question, right? are we going to take seriously our commitment to the folks who made possible our quality of life? i mean, the attack on mentions is really an attack on public services as a whole. it's an investment. a long-term investment, that we've committed to, and we've committed to in contracts. look, the excesses, the bad decisions, the recklessness of politicians who didn't fully fund their contributions to the pension funds that are struggling right now are just being exacerbated by the recklessness of wall street, who's serving -- who's trying to convince folks that they need to take on crazy, exotic, and risky instruments in order to move to more, to try and make up for those losses. >> right. >> and lynette, i want to go back to the three-legged stool. savings is a big and necessary part of it. but people just aren't -- they're not saving. why aren't people saving more? and how is that contributing to the retirement income deficit? >> well, we know, as you mentioned, that, in theory, one of the great ways that you can secure a great future for yourself financially is to have multiple streams of income when you're in your golden years. of course, for many pensioners, that is being taken away at, you know, these levels we're talking about today. the fact is, so many americans are living hand-to-mouth, paycheck-to-paycheck, right now, that they feel that they can't save for the future. especially when you talk about the 50-plus crowd, the data is actually quite alarming. so many people haven't saved, not only enough for retirement, but many americans, half of all americans, have more in debt than they have in savings. another survey recently found that one out of three americans has less than $1,000 in savings. so there is no safety net there for a lot of people if they don't have the pensions to help backstop them, to help provide a source of income when they're no longer able to work, and obviously, as you said, a lot of these pensioners in public municipalities, et cetera, also don't have the contributions or the checks from social security, their only source of income will be their own savings. and it just hasn't materialized for so many people. they're dealing with higher costs of health care, higher food, higher housing expenses, higher insurance premiums. the list goes on and on. and i fear that we are not only going to put a generation of americans into poverty, but the next generation as well. >> right, right. okay, we have a lot more to get to. hang on, with me, for a moment, folks. when we come back, i'm going to tell you how some of the biggest ceos in american are doing with their pensions. marge: you know, there's a more enjoyable way to get your fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. they're delicious, and a good source of fiber to help support regularity. wife: mmmm husband: these are good! marge: the tasty side of fiber. from phillips. you want a loan to build you can't do that.ica? 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[ bell rings ] you get to point "b", and sometimes things change. but your journey is not done. capella university is the most direct path to what's next, because our competency-based curriculum gives you what you need to move forward to your point "c". capella university. start your journey at capella.edu. add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off for every year of safe driving. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side hey, do you think in 20 years, we're still going to have pep pensions, even in government? >> yes, i do, i think they have to be properly funded at all times. and since i became governor five years ago, every year we put the proper amount into the pension funds. that didn't occur until i came here. i inherited a very large problem of $100 billion deficit. but we do hard things. sometimes they're not popular, but they're necessary for everyday people to have a good economy. >> that was democratic governor pat quinn of illinois, speaking with msnbc's chuck todd on the daily rundown on prid. illinois has the lowest credit rating in the u.s. and was recently downgraded by moody's for failing to fulfill its pension obligations. its pension liability is $187 billion. that is 318% of the state's revenues. but while we focus on how states will fulfill their obligations to retirees, there is another important piece to this pension pie. according to a survey conducted by nerd wallet, ceo pensions are worth at least 239 times more than the average employee's 401(k) at ten of the biggest u.s. companies. while the median yearly income of u.s. retirees with pensions stands at just more than $31,000. connie, i've got to come to you first. if we take a look at the gaps between ceo pensions and the average 401(k), it's staggering. how does income inequality factor into this conversation, especially for those not making a whole lot of money? >> right. this really is an attack on the very basis of america. we are in a case where, we've seen income and wealthy inequality widen. the attack on pensions is really widening it even more quickly. if you look at the communities that are in the public sector, working, those are african-americans and other minority communities that are being attacked, really, with the attack on pensions. when we make the promise of pensions, a lot of times people are taking a wage cut in order to have the promise of security going into the future. >> and frankly, a lot of these people who probably could do other things or go into more profitable careers in the corporate world, et cetera, because of their own inclinations towards community service, whether they're teachers, whether they're cops, whether they're firefighters, et cetera, they are taking a pay cut in a lot of ways, based on other career options that might be available to them. >> i'm just going to add to what these two wonderful women are saying. right now we are facing in this country a $6.6 trillion retirement income deficit. that's the gap between what people have saved as of today and what they would have needed to save to reach some basic level of income in retirement. and that's cause, because as lynette said before, there's a 50% coverage rate in this country. 401(k) plans are failing people miserably. companies are cutting back pensions, except for the corporate executives, as you said. so if we continue to see states and cities try to get out of their pension obligations, i just want to make this one point, america has been the land of promise. it's going to become the land of broken promises if we keep this going on. so we have got to stop that. >> and one piece on this is, look, we bailed out the banks, coming out of an economic disaster that they created. >> and then, we defended, i mean, certain of us, defended the rights of their executives and employees to get bonuses, because of what the sanctity of the contract. and then, three years later, we reduced state and local aid from the federal government, because of the economic condition that wall street created, and we told public employees, look, the paper your contract is written on, not worth a thing. the contract itself, not worth a thing. we're willing to break those promises and send you into poverty. >> that's actually a very good point. and i want to -- let's bring it back to corporate america. what's happened with the pension system, who bears the brunt of the blame? is it corporate america or is it the politicians? >> well, i think it's both. but the politicians are bought off by corporate america. this crisis has wall street's fingerprints all over it. now, there's also another three-legged stool when it comes to retirement, right? it's the pensions like social security and defined benefits. it's also investment income. and then it's home equity. and the wall street-caused crisis, which is the biggest criminal fraud in u.s. history, and which none of these executives have had to pay a price for, cost $8 trillion in lost home equity. so you knock out one leg of that stool. and then we've had multiple stock market bubbles and crisis. let's not forget the internet bubble, that was full of all sorts of fraud. enron was one of the most explicit. then we find one of these enron guys, john arnold is going around trying to get states to cut pensions. and then, a lot of these investments were basically turned over to wall street to these dicey hedge funds, calpers, the california retirement system, lost over $1 billion on three structured investment vehicles that were rated aaa. and you can go across the country and find just epic fraud. and wall street hasn't had to pay a dime. and they're saying the elderly must pay. that we have greedy geezers that are problem. >> right, that's a very strongly held sentiment. we have to take a quick break. we'll be right back, and talk about something that could affect millions of americans, when we come back after this. a 401(k) is the most sound way to go. let's talk asset allocation. sure. you seem knowledgeable, professional. would you trust me as your financial advisor? i would. i would indeed. well, let's be clear here. i'm actually a dj. 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[ male announcer ] campbell's chunky soup. it fills you up right. if you want to understand what this problem will do to you, look at the city of detroit. the city of detroit just went bankrupt. they had $11 billion in debt and $2 billion in cash. that's a problem. of the $11 billion in debt, $9.5 billion of it was pension and retiree health benefits. ladies and gentlemen, that's where we're headed. that's where we're headed. >> so, you heard it, from governor christie. does he have a point? is new jersey and other states, potentially other states, headed down the same road as detroit? any one of you, jump in. >> i just think that's absolutely ridiculous. first of all, all of these so-called calculations in pension funding are subject to manipulation. there's -- if you look at one set of calculations about detroit, for instance, you will see that the pension plans are 98% funding or 90%, depending on which plan you're talking about. as soon as the emergency manager came in, voila, suddenly you had these ballooning liabilities in the plan. it depends. you could have an interest rate assumption, and without going into all the details, that go up or down, and it changes by billions of dollars under funding. >> i think the clear thing, though, it's obvious that cities and states across the country are watching detroit. and politicians are saying, hmm, if they get away with it, can we, potentially? the scope of the problem, as karen raised earlier, is really one big question for us to talk about. depending on whose numbers you believe, we have a massive pension underfunding problem in this country. or actually it's not so severe. the rockefeller institute says there's 14 million americans whose pensions are underfunded to the tune of $1 trillion. other people quibble with those numbers and argue and say, you know what, it's very concentrated. it's just a handful of states where there's been corruption, where there's been fiscal mismanagement, where there's been questionable investment deals. the reality, though, we are our brother's keeper. if it's happening in new york or virginia or tennessee or california or my state, new jersey, it's going to affect all of us one way or another. so we really do have to deal with this. and we've got to talk credibly and honestly about it, without a lot of manipulation of the numbers. >> let me say one more thing -- well, you go and i'll go. >> i was going to say, just picking up on our brother's keeper theme, we're not just talking about retiree benefits. we're also talking about our basic investment in the public services. so there was a study that just came out about teacher pensions that was advocating for a system that would encourage people who are going to be leaving the field. well, it's important for us to be investing, as we were talking about before, in a comprehension package where maybe the wages aren't competitive with the private sector, but publicly minded people will be able to still take those jobs, because they know their retirement security is accounted for, that they can put in the years to develop increase and skills and be able to really take on the challenges an s in a classroom, instance. if you defund the pensions, then you're going to be moving people out who would be developing that experience and increaexpertise teach a classroom of people who don't have -- kids who don't have basic literacy. and who can read full stories in kindergarten. you don't know that coming straight out. >> i think one of the interesting stories about detroit, one of the bailouts involved, $230 million that barclays is putting up and being paid for by the taxtaxpayers, that's going to pay off swaps by bank of america, these are these financial weapons of mass destruction. so we can't pay retirees who may be living on $1,200 a month, but we can pay these exotic financial instruments, more investment bankers -- >> they sort of negotiated it down to the lofty little mark of 85 million at this point, which is still a lot of money for a bankrupt city to be paying. and this deals with the question of, who bears the burden? who should take this loss on this? no matter where you stand on the issues of the numbers and what's going on in detroit, can anyone credibly argue that pensioners, current retirees or folks who are working on the job right now, who have been made certain guarantees in promises, who negotiated promises in good faith, that they are, quote/unquote responsible. that they are the ones who have put this problem into effect? absolutely not! who could credibly argue that? >> and on that note, we have to go. i didn't think i would get so into this pension discussion, but i did. thank you, lynette, arun, and karen friedman. coming up, world-famous ballerina misty copeland back in nerdla nerdland. 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(vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro. one more day of searching, and still no answers as to the whereabouts or fate of malaysia airlines flight 370, which was scheduled to land in beijing 16 days ago. but this morning, authorities said a french satellite has captured new images of debris near the search area in the southern indian ocean. house intelligence chairman mike rogers speculated last week that the flight had crashed into the indian ocean, and stood behind that this morning, when asked by host david gregory on nbc's "meet the press". >> i think that's the highest probability, david. you can't take anything quite off the list yet. but when you look at what is probable and what is plausible, it certainly rates as the plausible. so what they'll continue to do is try to identify every background on every passenger to make sure they're not missing something and then they won't be able to really put this whole case together until they find the aircraft. and i do believe, based on everything that i've seen so far, it is likely and probable that it crashed into the indian ocean. >> joining me now from washington is robert francis, the former vice chairman of the national transportation safety boa board. he helped lead the investigation into twa flight 800, which exploded and crashed off long island in 1996. mr. francis, thanks for being here. >> you're welcome. >> what do you make of congressman rogers' theory? >> i agree with just about everything that he said. i think that it's the most likely place that the aircraft went down, because i, regardless of what the satellites are seeing, i don't think they've seen any pieces of the airplane. it's just, it's just not likely that that's going to be the case. and if anything is to be seen on the ocean, it's not going to be big, long pieces of the airplane. it's going to be seats or suitcases or life preservers or whatever is -- can float. >> that leads to the question i was going to ask you, how significant are these discoveries of possible debris to this point? >> i think the chances that this debris has anything to do with this accident are de minimis. >> do any of the reported pilot actions report somehow that they might be at fault? or is it too early to tell? >> well, i mean, i think you can always analyze and construe things as the spirit moves you, but i haven't seen anything that would indicate to me that the pilots were at fault at all. and i think the whole baloney of going and looking at this guy's computer, and the fact that he had deleted something, you know, lots and lots of pilots have computers and they like to play with them and all of us delete from our computers all the time. so what? >> the fact that there are little pieces of wood, large pieces of possible debris, do you think this is inaddidicativ a plane crash? >> i would not take what i've heard to be indicative of a plane crash. >> robert -- >> excuse me, i think it's far more likely to have come off some ship that's bringing whatever it is through that part of the ocean. >> mm-hmm. robert francis in washington, d.c., thank you. >> you're welcome. >> stay with msnbc throughout the day for the latest on this still-developing story. but up next for us, groundbreaking ballerina misty copeland joins us in studio to talk about her life in motion. in my world, wall isn't a street... ...return on investment isn't the only return i'm looking forward to... for some, every dollar is earned with sweat, sacrifice, courage. which is why usaa is honored to help our members with everything from investing for retirement to saving for college. our commitment to current and former military members and their families is without equal. marge: you know, there's a more enjoyable way to get your fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. they're delicious, and a good source of fiber to help support regularity. wife: mmmm husband: these are good! marge: the tasty side of fiber. from phillips. in an industry dominated by young white women who typically begin dancing at age 5 or earlier, world renowned ballerina misty copeland is considered a prodigy. not only did misty start training at age 13, which is very late for a ballerina, she fought through personal and financial hardships to reach her goal. in 2007, misty game the first african-american female in two decades to be a soloist at the american ballet theatre, one of the world's leading classical ballet companies. in her new memoir "life in motion," she chronicles her inspiring and sometimes heartbreaking journey to becoming a superstar ballerina. misty and her five siblings were raised by her mother and a series of her mother's husbands and boyfriends, or is she describes it, a pattern of "packing, scrambling, and leaving, often barely surviving. she spent parts of her teen years living out of a motel room and was at the center of a public custody battle between her mother and a dance instructor. misty was once a timid and shy young dancer dealing with racism at a very young age. today, the 31-year-old has danced with celebrities like prince, won several awards, broken barriers, and come to represent a more modern and inclusive future of ballet. i don't know if you can tell, but i'm excited to have misty copeland joining me onset. welcome. >> thank you. i'm excited, too. nice to meet you as well. >> tell us about your book. why did you decide to share your story? >> i knew at some point i would be sharing my story because i just don't have the typical background of what people expect from a classical ballet dancer at this level. i know how many children can relate to my story. i think it's a universal story of overcoming and having dreams, and knowing that no matter what your background and your family situations are, as an adult, you can turn things around. i don't think it's ever too late to strive for and dream big. >> you only trained for four years before you were invited to join the american ballet theatre, and you were the only african-american woman in the company of 80 dancers. how did you breakthrough both those barriers? >> i think it was just really having confidence in myself and trying not to get caught up in that. and that's a lot of responsibility and a lot of weight on someone, to think about things that way. i had amazing people that entered my life and were mentors to me that helped to guide me, and for me to think of myself as another dancer and not to feel so secluded, even though i did at times, but just a lot of hard work and sacrifice. >> in the pro llogue, there are several parts where you say "this is for little brown girls." is that your motivation to be great? >> it is. those moments -- i've been touring with my book "life in motion." when i get out there and see the faces of these young brown girls. or not even that. i see all colors, children who are fascinated, who see themselves through me, no matter what they look like. that's my motivation. those days when i wake up in the morning, my body is killing me and i'm just like, i just can't make it today, i think of those girls. so i think that's what the reference is. it's for the little brown girls. >> i want to read something that struck me. there's a fight that you had with your brother. and he said, "what do you do anyway, dancers are done, all they do is use their bodies, not their brains." you said his words stung. you said, "i knew that he wasn't the only person that felt that way, that he was one of so many others who would never understand all that it took to be a dancer, how we had to meld so many parts, our brains, our emotions, our bodies to put on a performance that hid all the streams, leaving only stardust for the audience to see. >> yeah, those words still stick with me today. i know he didn't mean to hurt me. but i think that the opportunities i've had to work with artists like prince, to be a spokesperson for the boys and girls clubs of america, to have an under armour deal, i think these are all ways of getting it out there, to show people that we're athletes and the hard work that goes into what we do. it's not just about the physical, which is extremely demanding, but making it look effortless and becoming an actress. i just want people to understand that we use every single part of our beings to become this onstage. >> as you also say in the book, how much thought it takes and how much love. >> yes. there's so much thought that goes into every step that we take. that's why it looks so effortless out there. so it looks as if maybe we're not thinking, we're just kind of following the music. and that's what we're supposed to make it look like. but we are athletes out there, as well as artists. so it's amazing to be able to bring that to so many people, through my story, through this book, through all the platforms i've been given. >> so, i can't believe we're running out of time, but have you seen any change in the way minority communities embrace classical ballet now that you have broken the traditional mold? >> i have. i think that sparking a conversation, being on shows like this are making people talk about it and address these issues. which is we need to diversify classical ballet. and i do think i see a change with the initiative project playing with the boys and girls clubs of america. it's sparking that conversation and getting people to try to make change and diversify it. >> you mentioned in your book that ballerinas never stop learning and growing. so what's next? >> never stop. i leave tuesday for abu dhabi for a three-act play. and then our spring season that's may through july at the metropolitan opera house here in new york city and you can see me do many principal roles there. avt.org, you can find it there. >> thank you so much for coming. >> thank you for having me. >> that is our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. and thank you, melissa and the entire nerd land team for the honor of sitting in this chair. i want to let everyone know that melissa harris-perry will be back here, yes, melissa is returning to the program next saturday, 10:00 a.m. eastern. now it's time for a preview of "weekends with alex witt." alex? >> you did a great job filling the chair, though, jonathan. so well-done. >> thanks, alex. day 16 now. a new satellite image. will it hold clues to the disappearance of the missing malaysia jetliner? is the exhaustive search effort about to get more difficult? a major weather event is brewing. what it means for crews in the indian ocean. the clinton tea leaves. did hillary tip her hand on her 2016 intentions? what she said last night that's fueling speculation. don't go anywhere. i'll be right back. ris] this...is jane. her long day on set starts with shoulder pain... ...and a choice take 6 tylenol in a day which is 2 aleve for... ...all day relief. hmm. 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[ female announcer ] this week, save up to $9 on zyrtec® products. see sunday's newspaper. add vanishing deductible from nationwide insurance and get $100 off for every year of safe driving. we put members first. join the nation. ♪ nationwide is on your side they're the days to take care of business.. when possibilities become reality. with centurylink as your trusted partner, our visionary cloud infrastructure and global broadband network free you to focus on what matters. with custom communications solutions and responsive, dedicated support, we constantly evolve to meet your needs. every day of the week. centurylink® your link to what's next. day 16 and more evidence of something, potential objects as they're being called. are searchers any closer to actually locating flight 370? the task now, find exactly what is on this image taken from space. but how difficult is this? nbc's tom costello will bring you unique perspective on the scope of the search. did hillary clinton just drop a big hint about her future plans? inside an iranian prison, hear a story of trauma experienced by three americans held in solitary confinement. hey there, everyone. high noon here in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome to "weekends with alex witt." we have another potential big development in the search for malaysia airlines flight 370. malaysia's transport minister says france has new satellite images showing possible debris in the southern corridor of the

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