Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20180818

They join 30 National Security and intelligence chiefs who publicly rebuke the President Trump overnight in a rare joint statement writing we all agree that the president s action regarding john brennan and the threats of similar actions against other former officials has nothing to do with who should hold security clearances. Decisions on security clearances should be based on National Security concerns. The president stopped to defend himself. Action against brennan was directly linked to brennans involvement in the russia probe. There is no silence. If anything, i am giving him a bigger voice. Many people dont even know who he is. And now he has a bigger voice and that is okay with me. I like taking on voices like that. I have never respected him. This just came up lately and it is a disgusting thing, frankly. Look, i say it. I say it again. That whole situation is a rigged witch hunt. The president singled out the only official still in office whose security clearance is under review. Justice Department Lawyer named bruce orr. He is a disgrace. I suspect i will be taking it away quickly. I think bruce orr is a disgrace with his wife nelly. For him to be in the Justice Department and do what he did is a disgrace. A career employee of the Justice Department is no longer involved in the probe. Names on the list include james comey, andrew mccabe, sally yates and peter strozk. As Rachel Maddow points out last night, cutting off their access to classified information could have a direct impact. What if the practical effect of taking away security clearance of a formal official who was involved in the Russian Investigation is that you interfere with that former official accessing his or her own notes or files. What does that do to the ability to prepare for testimony and testify. We have good reason after all to think that a bunch of these people might have important things to say. He is not after his critics, he is after the witnesses. He is after the witnesses says rachel. She will be sitting down for a live interview with john brennan tonight. Get the whole investigation shut down. He is taking aim at Robert Mueller himself. Mr. Mueller has a lot of conflict. He is highly conflict. In fact comey is like his best friend. I could go into conflict after conflict. But sadly mr. Mueller is conflicted. But let him write his report. We did nothing. There is no collusion. For more on who the president is targeting. In the backlash, joined by natasha bertrand. And michael isikoff. It is always good when the president says something to go right out in front and call him out. This conflict after conflict and how conflicted Robert Mueller is, there is no evidence of that whatsoever. Of course not. And of course the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein has said there is no conflict of interest that would prevent mueller from carrying out this investigation. What we are seeing is the president is clearly panicking. And repeating fox news talking points. That is something that the right wing media has been hammering on for the better part of a year. The same thing goes for this idea that mueller has a conflict of interest. We see the lengths that he is willing to go through. And we have seen that with the revoking John Brennans security clearance. That was a deliberate attempt to distract. Three weeks after when omarosa news was hitting that this finally released. Staffers at the white house are drafting new security clearance cancellations and determining when they would be most beneficial to be released. They are planning this around negative news cycle and politicizing this process and using it to make themselves look better during damaging media reports. Michael, in the beginning this looked like something petty and vindictive. It has taken on a sinister feel to it. The president has said it was about a russia investigation. This was the new lester holt moment. Now that he said this, tell me how this unfolds. The president failing to outwit his opponents has decided to use brute force. Sure. The brennan revocation, some of this is overwrought, the idea that it is stifling free speech is absurd. Brennan is coming on this network in an hour and speaking. The views are probably shared by most of your listeners. He is a former cia director and when he says the president is a demagogue who will end up on the dust bin of history. When he says the president is engaged in collusion, when he testified before congress that he was not aware of actual collusion. A lot of questions that people have within the Intelligence Community about what he was saying. He didnt use any classified information. 13 reasons why you can remove clearance. There is no process. That is a weird argument. It is not a weird argument. It is cool not to like it. It is not a weird argument. It is. Michael, michael, hold on. 13 reasons that you can take somebodys clearance away. There are no breaches of those. I dont disagree with that at all. But john brennan is not going to suffer because his security clearance is revoked. Can i make my point please. What is much more serious is the questions about bruce orr because he is a standing Justice Department official. And when you talk about basically eliminating anybodys do you process and revoking by president ial edict, somebody who is still in office, and still serving the government, that is a much more serious. The president has done something that is breached the process that you are supposed to use if you want to take somebodys security clearance away. What do you think the further implications are. We have seen these 13 write this letter and now seen another 60. They are concerned about greater implications not brennans free speech right. This slippery slope danger. Where you know, i agree with mike, i agree that John Brennans freedom of speech has not been stifled. The idea that the president is revoking security clearance not because of National Security violation, but because that person has been critical of the investigation. I think that is a precedent that is dangerous. And of course as mike said, this is also an important point. It is different now when you are talking about currently serving Justice Department official. That will completely hamstring his ability to do his job. That amounts him to losing his jo and be ability to carrying out his role as a Public Servant in response to him having a proper channel between chris steel and the Justice Department when this negotiations were still ongoing. This is a terrible precedent. I think the mcraven oped was not meant for example as a notice to the general public but plenty to convey two people who may be in the same position either current or former intelligence officials that this is a moment when you need to decide what they are going to do. Thanks to both of you for joining us. Admiral mcraven, the admiral overseeing the attack of osama bin laden. I am joined by former prosecutors. Lets examine this in terms of the dangers that this holds for the Mueller Investigation. Kim, the president has basically declared himself the emperor. Decided there are rules that dont apply to them. There are rules to follow if you want to take somebodys clearance away. The president feels he is not subject to that. Yeah. And i also teach constitutional law full time and i am writing a book on the constitution for regular people. And what is happening here is almost like an adolescence smashing the crystal in the house because he isnt getting what he wants. And the parents are standing by. Congress is not doing their job to make sure that the president stays within the boundaries of the constitution. Not just do you process but also First Amendment and i disagree in this idea that it matters at all whether john brennan himself his speech feels stifled. The founders of the constitution were clear that is a no. And the implications are very serious. 60 intelligence officials who are the grownups in the room. They dont have power anymore but saying this is not okay. This is career Public Servants who make decisions based on facts and law. And they are careful and judicious and the trump constituency needs to understand this cant be sustained anymore. Harry, as much as everybodys concern for john brennan, he has not been stifled one bit. I am very concerned about donald trump. Very concerned about every time he oversteps what we as a society have agreed the bounds are around the president , he seems to be able to do it again. And kim is right. The constitution lays out certain parameters of each branch. But we have a set of norms that we expect our elected officials to follow. Whether that is not engaging in business while you are president , or as the case is here, punishing people who are potential witnesses against you or public critics against you. By taking away security clearance and threatening implicitly other folks. It violates the norms that we have. And you know, attorney general sessions just said in the last couple of days that it is not the courts business to police what the president does. These days we havent seen that work. Oh, congress, no, Congress Pretty much out to pasture at this point. The framers created a republic that is a represented government. People will do crazy things and we need grownups in the room to make these decisions. The notions that the courts are not in position to judge constitutionality, flies in the face. There are two other branches that grade everybodys papers and that keeps us out of tyranny and that is what distinguishes our constitutions from the monarchy from our Founding Fathers fought so hard and died for to get away from. Senator mark warner says i will be introducing an amendment next week. He addresses the two issues. One is the arbitrarily revoking security clearance. Also the punishing and intimidating his critics. Two distinct issues going on. And one is norms and one is law. Two distinct issues going on. And one is norms and one is law. Thats right. And i think the idea of a new law would be a good idea. Particularly one that would give people a private right of action to say if you have been wrongly deprived of your security clearance that you can go into court as kim was saying, invoke the constitution, challenge the executive action, but a statute from Congress Seems like a step forward in allowing that do. Thank you both for being here tonight. Ahead, the president s move to revoke security clearance from critics receives condemnation. This isnt just any moving day. This is moving day with the best inhome wifi experience and millions of wifi hotspots to help you stay connected. And this is moving day with Reliable Service appointments in a twohour window so youre up and running in no time. Show me decorating shows. This is staying connected with xfinity to make moving. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and twohour appointment windows. Click, call or visit a store today. Another day in another stunning reaction from the Intelligence Community after President Trump unprecedented brazen revocation of brennans security clearance. Now been joined by 60 former cia officials who are voicing their deep concern over the president s accuracy. One of the cia official joins me now. Great to have you here. Tell us what was at the forefront of your thinking when you decided to join others of the Intelligence Community in this letter. I wanted to ensure that my signature was in the letter to say unequivocally i dont think it is okay. Tell me why that is the issue. What would happen if we applied political litmus tests to people who did the kind of work that you do. Then it would strictly be about ideology, Political Party and have nothing to do with National Security. I would say this if it was a letter that i had to sign saying the same thing about former president barack obama, president george bush. Any press in our history. I cant imagine anyone asking about loyalty. Even if he was, President Trump was opposed to John Brennans actions this is not the type of actions he should be taking. This is like retaliation against a former Government Official and that in and of itself is extremely dangerous. That is so dangerous. That is like a dictator or autocrat. Are you heartened by the response of intelligence chiefs or other officers like you who have had this response. This president has been attacking the Intelligence Community from the outset. Yeah. I mean i am very proud to be able to stand alongside my colleagues because if nothing else, the cia prides themselves in trying to be fair and objective. They try not to look at it through a lens of Political Party. That doesnt mean an individual cannot hold their own specific belief system. Nor should they. We have a mind, we should think. Absolutely, but at the same time when you are doing your job and delivering information, it shouldnt be done through that political lens. Let me ask you this. There is actually a process by which your security clearance can be revoked and there are valid reasons why that should need to be the case. There is a process. There is an ability for the person who is having their clearance revoke to appeal it or explain themselves. The president didnt even Pay Lip Service to this. Not at all. And from my impression, it seems to me that he has left us, and okay with if you left us, i can retaliate. This is literally about what he said in the public sphere. To be clear, one of those reasons that would justify somebody taking your clearance away is that if you mishandled. If you came on the show and said things that you are not entitled to say. No accusations that brennan did anything that would justify that. I am not aware of any accusations. I myself have gone through so many hoops to try to get my book cleared at this point. Making sure i go through a review process. I am doing everything i can to uphold my Security Agreement with the government. The president needs to abide by and respect the same types of rules that the rest of us have to. Nada, thanks for your time. Still ahead, the president makes comments about the trial and manafort himself. Right after this. Dont go away. I think the whole manafort trial is very sad. When you look at what is going on there, it is a very sad day for our country. He worked for me for a very short period of time. But you know what, he happens to be a very good person and i think it is very sad what they have done to Paul Manafort. Thank you very much. Today President Trump stood on the south lawn and lauded his former Campaign Chair Paul Manafort as the jury actively deliberating his fate. In his first trial. The man trump called a very good person. Lavishly paid. He faced second charges next month. Including conspiracy to defraud the United States. He was asked about pardoning. I dont talk about that. Again, the president made while the jury was still deliberating. Really appreciates the support of President Trump. The jury will return on monday. Joining me now is Daniel Goldman. Lets clear something up. Not common in a federal case for a jury to be sequestered. The fact is they can be exposed to it. In theory, they can. But they would be violating their oath as jurors. The implications of what the president said today is unlikely to reach the jury and should not reach the jury. The judge every morning asks them if they have upheld their duty and not read anything or watched anything. Certainly Paul Manafort heard it and no question there is a message being sent from the president to Paul Manafort. And interesting message, asking about a pardon, i dont discuss that. Now he says. Has not made a deal as of now. And some people speculate that could be one of those reasons. I am one of them. I think, even though his lawyers seem to have a reason why he would have two cases, it doesnt make sense to choose to have two separate cases in two trials. The defendant doesnt get benefits of having two bites of the apple because one conviction could send him to the jail. Given that we have a president who has said in the past, when people are treated unfairly that is a predicate to pardon them. He says it is a sad day for our country. Comparing manaforts situation as al capone. And given his own track regard that this president is dangling the idea of a pardon for Paul Manafort. And laying the groundwork for other pardons that he has brought in. Jury deliberating for 12 hours. Does this mean anything to you. Some jurors who are not inclined to get into the weeds and go through all the documents. And then other jurors and this one appears to be like this type of jury that is going to do their job seriously. And not only surprising about, i wouldnt say surprising that it is taking this long, but surprising to me that there are few jury notes and in particular, they have not asked for the testimony of any witnesses which is very common in trials when juries like, you know, when they are debating with each other about what someone said, can we have the testimony of this witness about x subject and that has not happened at all. What we can tell from questions yesterday is that they are going through carefully the evidence and the law but we will have to see. I dont think there is anything to draw from it yet other than they are taking their job very seriously. Thanks for your analysis. I want to turn to congresswoman raskin. Thanks for being with us. Talk about this donald trump refusing to rule out a pardon when asked about it this morning. What do you make about that . Back when he pardoned sheriff arpaio and scooter libby, he was sending a message that he stands by his friends. And making positive noises about pardons in order to make sure that Paul Manafort stays on his side. Essentially what i read the strategy to be, is go through the trial and see if you can get off. And if you cant, i will take care of you later. This is a president from the firing of james comey through the constant denunciation of attorney general. You heard Daniel Goldman saying this jury seems to be diligent and they wouldnt break their rules by listening to something the president said today. I think it was awfully strange though. What a terrible case this is and how sad, during jury deliberations. Important to understand how extreme and abhorrent. Where indeed the jury pool that is the United States of america. Spending all of his time trying to destruct. He doesnt work on infrastructure, on health care. Not working on any public policy. He is just focused on this investigation. He is certainly not acting like an innocent man. Let me ask you about what happens if there is a pardon involved. You are on the judiciary committee. Anything you can do about it . Lets start with the legal analysis. Some people have said the president s pardon power is unlimited in the constitution. And that is not true. Very few things in the constitution that are not limited by other powers that are built into the constitution. An extreme example if the president puts pardons up for sale. Impeachable events if he takes pardons. Or in order to interfere the rule of law. That could constitute an impeachable event. Now unfortunately, because of the gops decision basically to disregard its constitutional duties, we are not looking at the oversight powers to look into each sequential events of the obstruction of justice the president has engaged in. If the house flips in 81 days, what is your First Priority because a lot of things you are talking about. What would you do . Well, we have got a backlog of literally hundreds of requests into everything from the abuse of the president s pardon power to the abuse of the power to give people access to National Security secrets. To obstruction of justice to the to obstruction of justice to the emolument clause. We have got to do everything in our power to restore the rule of law and respect to the constitution, the First Amendment, the free press and the rights of the people. That is what Congress Needs to be doing. The president s role under our constitution is not to be a king. The role is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. This president is taking care that the laws are thwarting. People are getting the health care they need. And they are not giving the department of Education Private for profit schools. Override the rules of law. In every department it is an impressive to do list. Good to see you. Thank you for being with me. My pleasure. Thank you very much. Still to come, while the president fumes that his veterans military parade is too expensive to put on. Who is running the va . Breaking news from routers, the special counsel recommends that the judge sentence George Papadopoulos for up to six months in prison for lying to investigators in the russian probe. What do we know about this story . We are scrambling trying to get ahold of this document. It has been clear in recent months that the notion that George Papadopoulos was cooperating with the investigation was breaking down. And it was starkly clear most recently when his wife went on ari melbers show and said she believes he should withdraw his plea deal because he wasnt getting a fair shake and that is consistent with a number of interviews she has been given. All is not well in that relationship and if they are recommending prison time and suggest they dont believe he is fully cooperating. Remember, he pleaded guilty to one single count of lying to investigators about his contact. The russians had emails, incriminating emails about Hillary Clinton and what we dont know is who in the Trump Campaign he shared the information with. He has said and others said he had high level contacts within the campaign. Corey lewandowski and sam clovis. Do we need his cooperation if they have all the emails. So let me ask you this, and maybe you know the answer, maybe we dont know yet. If mueller says that papadopoulos lied to investigators and should be sentenced to jail, is this the initial lie or subsequent lie as you described people thought papadopoulos must be cooperating. My take is this is a sentencing recommendation. But the issue was he was hoping for probation for his cooperation and it doesnt appear that they are going in that direction. What we have to glean is for the crime, does sixmonth seem like a long time or unusually punitive or where it would be. In other words, is mueller mad at him or is this what he gets . Mueller is mad at him because cooperators hope not to get any time at all. One count of lying is a standard sentence within the guidelines. Often those cases, the judge sentences the person to no jail time at all or less than six months. Remember the lawyer vander swan did not get six months. I think it is pretty clear that that cooperation has broken down. And his wife has been giving interviews about this person who is reported to be an fbi informant. That is something the government did not want in the public domain. But she has been talking about this person. And the government cant have been happy with that. I am putting you on the spot. I know you are not a lawyer. Once the sentencing recommendation has been made, does that mean the juice has been squeezed out of papadopoulos . The investigation feels they have gotten out of him. Disappointed what they thought they were going to get. And the judge doesnt have to adhere to this recommendation, but an important factor in the sentencing whether he gets this downward departure for cooperating. We are going to have to see the sentencing recommendation in full to realize what is happening. And i know you have to try to figure out how to get your hands on this. I want to go back to representative raskin. What do you make of this. You having just heard this. You are a legal expert, what do you read into this . Well, good for Robert Mueller. You know, there has got to be some respect for the idea of telling the truth in the judicial process. And i know everybody is swimming in the sea of lies. Donald trump has told more than 5,000 lies since getting into the office by some journalistic accounts. This is Serious Business when people are going into court and lying into Law Enforcement and lying on the stands. The only real problem with the manafort case is of course he is a liar and a cheater and somebody engaged in bank fraud and tax fraud and so on. But the guy working for him cheated from him. So a den of thieves. And President Trump has a staff infection. And there is not going to be an effective antidote. This is an interesting point you make, 81 days out into the election. A lot of people who are seeking their satisfaction through the investigation or through the courts. The administration and the court has proved uniquely wily. And justice may come to them and we will see what Robert Mueller has. But the bottom line is before that investigation shows its, bears its fruit, there will be an election. There will be an election and i think the people are determined to say that democracy has to have a bedrock foundation. And that foundation has to be the truth, and it has to be freedom of speech and expression to get at the truth. Otherwise we are the victims of government lies and propaganda. I appreciate you being there for us. Lets go back to ken dilanian. What they are saying is the government is recommending a sentence of incarceration between one and six months. So it is significant that they are saying we are recommending incarceration. And muellers office is saying we are not taking a position of how long, but we think he should go to jail. Their agreement has broken down. So he is going to be sentenced on september 7th. And the statement says a sentence within the applicable guidelines range of 0 to 6 months is appropriate. So they are saying up to six months. And there is a sentencing range for federal crimes. What they are not saying is dont impose the normal sentencing range. Thats right. For example in the case of rick gates, his plea agreement calls for the government to not oppose a motion for probation. Here, they are saying, we think papadopoulos should go to jail. And that is interesting because i thought there was more they could get out of papadopoulos in terms of testimony. We havent heard in public everything he knows about where it went in the campaign. But perhaps mueller feels he has all he can get. And he is done with papadopoulos. If again, if mueller was feeling generous, he could say, if these guys say they dont want to go to jail, whatever. Whatever you decide. He is not saying that. He is saying apply the guidelines. He is saying we recommend incarceration. I guess the Mueller Investigation does signal you ca the fbi because it seems to be something in the air these days. People like to lie to the fbi. Rick gates lied to the fbi. The difference theyre happy with rick gates cooperation that he got on the stand and testified about Paul Manaforts alleged crimes and in the case of papadopoulos, thats not true. Your take away is if youre going to lie to the fbi, you better have something to offer up to the government later on. I think that is a truism, ali. We appreciate you, you giving us this reporting. Ken delaney and National Security and Investigative Reporter here at msnbc. Well be right back. Mbc doesnt take a day off, and neither will i. And i treat my mbc with new everyday verzenio the only one of its kind that can be taken every day. In fact, verzenio is a cdk4 6 inhibitor for postmenopausal women with hr , her2 mbc, approved, with hormonal therapy, as an everyday treatment for a relentless disease. 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Common side effects include nausea, infections, low red and white blood cells and platelets, decreased appetite, headache, abdominal pain, tiredness, vomiting, and hair thinning or loss. Im relentless. And my doctor and i choose to treat my mbc with verzenio. Be relentless. Ask your doctor about everyday verzenio. One of the greatest parades ive ever seen and to a large extent because of what i witnessed, we may do Something Like that on july fourth in washington down pennsylvania avenue. Well, he diddant get the military parade on the fourth of july this year so the white house started looking at a special veterans day parade but now thats not happening either. The president canceled the parade citing the expense which noted could cost more than 90 million. Here with me now is john, an iraq war veteran and the chairman of vote vets, a nonprofit that advocates on behalf of veterans and sam cedar msnbc contributor. John, let me start with you. What are your thoughts on, i dont even know if i want to give you thoughts, what are your thoughts on the cancellation of the parade . Thank god. No reason that all of our troops who serve overseas have to march down constitution avenue to appease Donald Trumps ego. Costs a lot of money and affects training and readiness and donald trump established where its establish to the stuff that wed see in north korea. Its obvious why he likes a parade. But of no benefit for our military. Were proud to see it canceled and we applied next year on veterans day to have a 5k run on the exact same day. This is outstanding you applied for a permt to be on the mall in a year from now on veterans day so they cant have a parade. So we can show donald trump what veterans day is about which is helping veterans. There are probably about 40,000 Homeless Veterans around the country. Veterans are experiencing very high suicide rates. 22 higher for the veteran community than for the community at large. Opioid addiction is higher amongst veterans. If you have money to spend on anything military, there are better places to spend it. People inside the armd forces that didnt support the parade and tension with the pentagon and white house and tension with veteran groups in the white house and i think in the end this got too far down the line that trump didnt want to own it any longer and i dont think the pentagon wanted to do it. Opposing the parade since day because it is a preposterous idea. Let me just ask you this, sam, we were just talking to the congressman about what the todo list for democrats would be if they won the house. You dont want to jinx it by saying that would happen. The 538 forecast models says republicans have a one in four chance of retaining the house, better odds than donald trump had to win the election. Thats true. Thats true. But its also better odds for the democrats than you might have imagined maybe 16 months ago. I mean, i think who is to say. But were going to get a better sense, particularly as we get it into september. And everything that weve seen up to this point is that democrats are far more energized. So which is not typically the case. Political scientists will tell you that the party that is out of power will tend to show up more. Democrats less so underperform that a little bit. But theres just a tremendous amount of energy on the left. And theres really y dont know that theres really much that can change between now and election day that will change that dynamic. Lets talk about this parade business again. The va has a massive department, its bigger than most people think. In the division of the va that deals with health care, they have 33,000 vacancies. Right . I mean, what does President Trump get out of this parade nonsense . Self gratification. I think it makes him feel important. You know, i guess theoretically everybody would be saluting him when they walk by. I mean, even the conversation about it, well, now were not going to have a parade so we can buy more jets. Thats not the problem right now with u. S. Military. Were not short of jets, were short of doctors and treatment. We just added 10 to the military budget out of thin air. 70 billion. We have a massive, massive military budget. It doesnt need to be half this size. We are so much larger than the rest of the world combined that its ridiculous. I mean, so, the idea that we would buy more jets, this is just him making excuses. I dont even think the 9 2 million. Pro public has a story how the va is not being run by anybody, its being run by a bunch of trump cronies without particular accountability and vote vets is suing the Veterans Administration over this. Someone has to do something. And there is a lot of people that have been look at the v. A. , including trying to figure out who is in charge. Why is privatization being pushed so hard by this administration. Pro publica got the story. Multimillionaires from marvel comic books is running the va from maralago. Stop, this is in violation of the law. You cant have your Kitchen Cabinet running the department of veteran affairs from people in your club because all these laws and rules who dictate who is on a committee that advises a Committee Like the department of veteran affairs. Were going to take this out of the dark and put it in the light and put veterans into the conversation and basically stop this right now and tell us everything thats happened and we pushed it over to the courts and well wait for a decision from the judge. Veterans should be at the front of any conversation that has the word military in it in this country far earlier than jets. Absolutely. Thanks very much. Thanks for being here. Thats all for this evening, but make sure to stay right here because we have quite a lineup. John brennan makes his first reporter its Graduation Day in a new york suburb a rite of