Automatic shutdown of the system, but before the plant was sealed, some radioactive steam escaped into the air. Harrisburg hospital, in case it has to move out, has cut its patient load to 50 by limiting admissions to emergencies. Sues baby, joseph, was born at the hospital the day of the plant accident. Shell take the baby home tomorrow, but mrs. Moses is still thinking of leaving. I would just as soon be a little bit further away from the activity that is going on right here. Imagine having your baby right there in the middle of the three mile island meltdown. The meltdown at three mile island happened at 4 00 in the morning on march 28th, 1979. That was a wednesday. They evacuated pregnant women and preschoolaged kids within five miles of the plant. By two days after the accident, by friday of that week, they had extended the evacuation zone to a 20mile radius around the plant. More than 100,000 people were evacuated around three mile island. By that weekend, president jimmy carter was on the scene wearing funny booties and touring the plant and trying to show that the situation was being brought under control. Ultimately, the cleanup at three mile island took nearly 15 years and 1 billion, but the scariest thing about that accident right when it happened was that nobody really knew how bad it was or how bad it was going to get or what it even meant in terms of dangerousness to have a largescale Nuclear Accident in this country. So, that Nuclear Meltdown happened, the three mile island crisis started at the very end of march 1979. What was going on in washington at the very end of march 79 . March 1979 in washington, while three mile island is fixating the country, in washington they were having a huge debt ceiling fight. The president was a democrat, jimmy carter. The senate was controlled by the democrats, robert byrd was the leader in the senate. The house was controlled by democrats, too. Tim oneil was speaker of the house. But even though democrats had control of the white house and both houses of congress, the republicans in the house had figured out a way to attach to the debt ceiling an amendment to the United States constitution. They wanted to attach a balanced Budget Amendment to the constitution and make raising the debt ceiling contingent on passing that constitutional amendment. So, even though the republicans were in the minority, they had figured out how to do this, and they were convinced that this was a genius strategy and that it would not only work, it would make the democrats look terrible in the process. The Top Republican in the house at the time was congressman john rhodes of arizona, and he told the New York Times when all this was happening, i think the democrats fear a balanced budget like the devil fears holy water mwah so, while three mile island melted down in pennsylvania, in washington, in congress, they fought and fought and fought and fought and fought right up until the deadline. Three mile island melted down on a wednesday. The debt ceiling deadline was the following tuesday. Congress waited until the day before the debt ceiling deadline to finally raise the debt ceiling. And no, the republicans did not get their balanced Budget Amendment. They got some sort of meaningless, symbolic promises in that direction, but they did ultimately raise the debt ceiling. Turns out, though, they did not raise it fast enough. They got too close. The fact that they waited until the very last minute had really big consequences, and i think part of the reason that this has been sort of lost to history is that nobody was paying attention to it at the time that it happened, because there was Something Else to Pay Attention to. There was a legit Nuclear Meltdown, a nonmet yorkal Nuclear Meltdown on u. S. Soil at the same time. So, this is what everybody was talking about and paying attention to at the time. But looking back at it now from this distance, we can see that what congress was doing, while the country was freaking out about that Nuclear Reactor in pennsylvania, ends up being sort of an important lesson, an important almost dry run in why screwing with the debt ceilings a really bad idea. There is only a couple of examples of screwing with the debt ceiling in modern history. Theres 2011, of course. House republicans under john boehner did force us in 2011 to get very, very close to the debt ceiling. There was no actual default in 2011. We did end up paying all of our bills, but because we got so close to the debt ceiling that year, we didn get our Credit Rating downgraded for the first time in history. They crunched the numbers later and figured that just that, without default, having people close enough to smell default, that cost the government about 1. 3 billion that it would not have otherwise had to spend. So, thats one of the two modern experiences weve had with getting close to the debt ceiling with this kind of drama. The other one was that one in 1979, and that one was actually worse, even though people dont much think about it and its not really a highprofile thing in our modern economic history. But in 1979, in the coincident with three mile island debt disaster, we did actually partially default on the debt. Congress acted the day before we got to the technical debt ceiling, and they thought they had taken care of it, they thought they averted the crisis. But in getting so close, in getting within a day of the deadline, they actually got too close, and Treasury Bonds that were due to be paid off on april 26th and on may 3rd and on may 10th, all of the bonds that came due on those days didnt get paid back on time. Sorry, glitch. We got too close. System overwhelmed. Software couldnt handle it. We apparently didnt know how to use those newfangled computing machines at the time, and the treasury was unable to make all of the payments it was supposed to make on all of the debt that we owe. People who held those specific Treasury Bonds did eventually get paid, but they got paid late. They got paid up to a week late. And those delayed payments do mean that we kind of sort of defaulted on that debt for a few days. And because of that, investors sued the United States of america, saying that the u. S. Government had not paid what we said we were going to pay. They tried to make the government pay interest for the days when these investors should have had their money but they didnt because the u. S. Was deadbeat and wasnt paying when we said we would. Ultimately, that whole affair ended up hiking the Interest Rates. Sounds boring, but it ends up being really expensive. The treasury had to pay higher Interest Rates on bonds that it wanted to issue thereafter, which means weve got to pay people more money for the privilege of them lending us something. Interest rights got hiked by a little more than 0. 5 , and it may not sound like much, but that hike in the Interest Rates didnt go back down when the crisis was averted. We proved ourselves to be untrustworthy, and so the hike in the Interest Rates stuck with us as a sort of penalty for having screwed up. And if you add up the cost of all the extra Interest Payments we had to make because of that screwup, in the first decade alone after that little technical just for a second glitchy default in 1979, we spent 12 billion that we would not have otherwise had to spend because we did that. So, people saying they were so concerned about debt and deficits made us add 12 billion extra to the debt for no purpose, for nothing in return. You would have been better offsetting that cash on fire. At least then it could keep you warm. In this case, it was for nothing. So, today we are three days away from the debt ceiling. We are due to hit it on thursday. And aside from fukushima, theres no ongoing Nuclear Meltdown to distract us from this one. The white house today announced that it was asking the top democrat and the Top Republican from both the house and the senate to come personally to the white house to talk to president obama and Vice President biden face to face, just the six of them to try to work this thing out once and for all. That was due to happen at 3 00 eastern today, but at the very last minute, that meeting was scrapped. Senate democrats and republicans said that their own discussions were going well enough that they thought it would be worth putting off the white house meeting to see if they could get a little further on in their negotiations. As everybody waited all afternoon to see when that postponed meeting would happen at the white house, the Senate Republicans very late in the day announced that, actually, they wanted to sleep on it. Apparently, not enough republican senators were in washington for them to convene for a meeting to discuss this stuff until tomorrow morning. So, that means that the next potential meeting, the next opportunity for an act of furtherance toward saving ourselves from economic catastrophe can come no sooner than midday tomorrow, after Senate Republicans meet at 11 00 a. M. . Even if the senate does work something out, of course, it will then have to go through the house, where there have been even fewer signs that progress is imminent, let alone possible. Markets today were relatively stable, if a bit nervous, as the markets hope, just as much as Everything Else, that something does get resolved. But even if congress does serve something up tomorrow, we will then be within two days of hitting the debt ceiling. When we got within one day of hitting the debt ceiling back in 1979, we did real harm to the country. And yes, it was overshadowed only by a Nuclear Meltdown, but it did real lasting and expensive harm to the country. Hitting the debt ceiling would be bad. Getting close to the debt ceiling is bad, too. Are we close enough already to start worrying about the damage . Joining us now is senator Sheldon Whitehouse of rhode island, a member of the Senate Budget committee. Senator whitehouse, thank you so much for being with us. Very happy to be with you. Growing up, my dad always told me close only counts in horseshoes and hend grenades. This is the hand grenade version of that. Oh, i was going to ask, does close also count in debt ceilings . Are we already in dangerous territory . Yeah, it absolutely does. There are two consequences of a default from not raising the debt ceiling. One is if you actually dont do it, and then markets and Interest Rates adjust in probably unimaginably bad ways. But even when you get close, other countries, bankers, people buying treasury securities look around and think this security doesnt seem quite as secure as it used to. I think im going to have to charge a little bit more in order to come in and be a buyer. And because we pay the interest, that comes right out of the taxpayers pocket. So, its very irresponsible to drive too close to the debt limit and to force all those costs on the taxpayers and to create all that uncertainty in the economic world. What is your understanding of the status of discussions right now, both in the senate and also overall towards some sort of resolution . One theory about why the markets are not freaking out too much already is that theres faith that a lastminute deal will be worked out. Is that your sense that thats true . Well, youve heard the tone in the last day or so. Harry reid and Mitch Mcconnell have had nothing but nice things to say about each other. Theres been a constant spirit, a tone of optimism. And now with the meetings scheduled for both caucuses tomorrow, i think its logical to conclude that they have an agreement that they intend to present and that well then be voting on it tomorrow afternoon, and that leaves Speaker Boehner back where he was at the very beginning, which is, its his choice. Let them vote and this is over or not. If the house does what it did before, the last time it was in this situation, and john boehner does not choose to bring up a measure that can pass for a vote, are you of the belief that president obama could act unilaterally in some way, that there is any other option . Obviously, the white house and the president himself have been very clear that they dont want to do that. They think it might cause more problems than it might solve. What do you think about that as a constitutional matter . Its a whether or not theres a article 2 or a 14th amendment constitutional option that the president has, even if there is one, just set that question aside for the sake of argument. Even if there is one, him going to it sends that same signal to the markets and to the rest of the world that something really weird is going on in america, that this particular issue of american debt has a cloud over it, has a question mark around it, and that could have a very, very bad effect on markets and Interest Rates, and that, in turn, comes home to hit americans in their pocketbooks. Every time i have heard you talk about this issue, and whatever i have talked to you about other issues, you have always seemed to me like a very pragmatic and grounded kind of senator. Thats part of the reason i wanted to talk to you about this. Because of that and because youre on the budget committee, i have to ask you what it is like to try to negotiate and talk to your colleagues across the aisle about this when so many, seems like increasing numbers of republicans, even in the senate, even senators who you think would be the experience to know better, are just saying this wouldnt be a big deal, wouldnt be catastrophic to hit the debt ceiling. They deny that it could really harm the country. How does that affect your work . You just kind of have to take your breath in and say, my god, did he really just say that . What is he thinking . If you were to i mean, the prevailing theory is, okay, so, we dont allow the debt limit to go up, but theres still some money coming in and we can still pay off the chinese with that and everythings going to be fine. Well, sure, except the fact that you have to sell treasuries out into a market, and the market is now looking around at a country that is maybe not sending out checks on time to Social Security recipients, maybe has gone into a much deeper Government Shutdown because there is no liquidity at all. I mean, the consequences, even if youre still paying the chinese, are terrible. Investors arent idiots. They can look across the table and see what else is happening. Its not just going to be the checks going to them. So, its like climate denial. Its really hard to reconcile it with reality. Senator Sheldon Whitehouse of rhode island, thank you very much for being with us tonight, sir. Good to have you here. Thank you. All right, over the weekend, there was something that happened in washington that on the one hand was kind of like, oh, i remember this, good old days on the other hand, it with wa like, oh, i remember this, i thought we were past this now. It all came rushing back in a flood of stars and bars. That storys next. [ male announcer ] this is claira. To prove to you that aleve is the better choice for her, shes agreed to give it up. Thats today . [ male announcer ] well be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. Now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. More pills . Seriously . Seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. Can i get my aleve back . For my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easyopen red arthritis cap. For my pain, i want my aleve. Make my mark i wawith pride. Ork. Create moments of value. Build character through quality. And earn the right to be called a classic. The lands end no iron dress shirt. Starting at 49 dollars. Was a truly amazing day. Ey, without angies list, i dont know if we could have found all the services we needed for our riley. From contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers. You can find it all on angies list. Join today. People that traveled with their family and how do you look at them and say, how do you youre going to deny them access. I dont get that. Its difficult. Well, it should be difficult. It is difficult. Im sorry, service. The park service should be ashamed of themselves. Im not ashamed. Well, you should be. That was from the second day of the Government Shutdown. Republican congressman randy neuge neugebauer. When the National Park service is closed, you do not get to use National Park services facilities. Weird, right . The monuments and parks maintained by the Parks Service get closed when the park service itself has to be closed. Thats what the Park Service Said it would do in the event of a shutdown before the shutdown ever happened. They posted their contiguongenc plan online. Its a simple thing Effective Immediately upon a lapse in appropriations, the National Parks service will take all necessary steps to close and secure National Park facilities and grounds in order to suspend all activities except for those that are essential to respond to emergencies involving the safety of human life or the protection of property. Its not that complicated. If you shut down the service that operates and protects the parks and monuments, the parks and monuments shut down. Ta da this is not rocket science. But in the more fevered corners of the american political right, the parks and monuments are closed down right now not because the government is shut down but because president obama does not like those parks and monuments. This is bizarre. Its been brewing since randy neugebau neugebauer, right . Its been brewing for a while now, but this weekend, it burst forth in washington in full splendor, as the same republicans who have been leading the charge to shut down the government decided this weekend that they would lead rallies to show their outrage that the government is, in fact, shut down. Let me ask a simple question, why is the federal Government Spending money to erect barricades to keep veterans out of this memorial . Because the memorial is closed . Because all the memorials and parks controlled by the Parks Service are closed because you led the charge to close the Parks Service. I know it was a rhetorical question, but theres actually a really direct empirical answer. Conservatives who wanted to shut down the government are angry now that the government is shut down. And because of that, they held a rally yesterday in washington where, among other things, they yelled at cops. We want my freedom your freedom is being walked on you need to throw those badges off. You need to go get out of the service to the dictator of this country they all know it, too. [ inaudible ] what are you doing . Youre gonna stand there and let your horse [ bleep ] all over the road make sure you guys clean this [ bleep ] when the horses get out of here. I dont want it on our streets. These are our streets, theyre not yours. He works for us. You work for us. The guy at the end there saying make sure you guys clean the bleep up when you get the horses out of here, we dont want it on our streets. These are our streets. So, the police that are getting yelled at there are working without pay as the shutdown down continues, and working without pay now includes getting screamed at while at work. So, the protesters rally with the two republican senators who led the way for the shutdown. Mike lee and ted cruz, xraesion the expressing their outrage that the things they want open are closed now because of that shutdown. They then picked up the barricades that were around the closed world war ii memorial and dragged the barricades over to the white house and hurled the barricades at the white house, hurled them down in front of the white house fence. Then the protesters went home, so the police, who through no fault of their own are working without being paid, the police had to pick up those barriers, drag them back to where they came from and keep working their shifts without being paid because of the shutdown that these folks made happen. They got speeches from ted cruz and from freshman senator mike lee from utah, the two most aggressive proponents of the shutdown. They also heard from congressman Kerry Bentivolio of all people who you may remember as the personal fringe candidate who sort of accidentally won that seat in michigan as a republican after congressman Thaddeus Mccotter got caught forging all the signatures on his reelection petition, and he was the only republican left on the republican line. Kerry bentivolio plays santa claus at christmastime, he herds reindeer and did bit parts as an actor about a 9 11 truther movie about how really it was george w. Bush who blew up the World Trade Center on 9 11. So, also, sarah palin, sarah palin is back. She has a book coming out soon about, i think the war on christmas . So, maybe thats why shes back. But shes back. And it was not a big list of speakers this weekend. It was just those four and then this guy, who told the appreciative, applauding audience that president obama needs to put down the koran and come out with his his hands pup he was trying to say, i think, come out with your hands up. And instead, he said, come up with your hands out. But i think you could tell what he meant. We are now ruled, quote unquote, by a president imperialistic president who bows down to allah. I call upon all of you to wage a second american nonviolent revolution, to use civil disobedience and to demand that this president leave town to get out. [ cheers and applause ] to put the koran down, get up on his knees and figuratively come up with his hands out. Vaguely threatening but incoherent is a patented thing with these folks. Its never held them back, like say this guy, who brought the Confederate Flag to the rally to wave it in front of the white house. Yes, an africanamerican family lives in that house now. Beyond the menace of the Confederate Flag, life style weekly the awkwardness and thematic incoherence of waving the giant Confederate Flag alongside the other flag he was holding, which was the marine corps flag. That is a particularly awkward choice, to be holding the Confederate Flag and marine corps flag at the same time, since the u. S. Marine corps was part of the fight against the confederacy in the civil war. But hey, i think the idea here was more about waving a Confederate Flag in front of a house where a black family lives than it was about anything specific related to the marines. This weekend, at the railing against the shutdown that they demanded rally, it felt less like anything specific to our politics right this second and more like old times, kind of. The crowds may be smaller now, and yeah, everybody wonders now what sarah palin is doing there. Its no longer selfevident. But with the obama is a muslim stuff and the totally unveiled racial stuff, it kind of feels like the tea party heyday all over again, doesnt it . Whos ready for another round . Ee at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. Tell me fiona, whos having a big tire event . Your ford dealer. Who has 11 major brands to choose from . Your ford dealer. Whos offering a rebate . Your ford dealer. Who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires . Your ford dealer. Im beginning to sense a pattern. Get up to 140 in mailin rebates when you buy four select tires with the Ford Service Credit card. Whered you get that sweater vest . Your ford dealer. Theyre the days to take care of business. When possibilities become reality. With centurylink as your trusted partner, our visionary Cloud Infrastructure and Global Broadband network free you to focus on what matters. With Custom Communications solutions and responsive, dedicated support, we constantly evolve to meet your needs. Every day of the week. Centurylink® your link to whats next. Because you cant beat zero heartburn. Woo hoo [ male announcer ] prilosec otc is the number one doctor recommended frequent heartburn medicine for 8 straight years. One pill each morning. 24 hours. Zero heartburn. Frequent heartburn medicine for 8 straight years. Ito guard their manhood with trnew depend shields and guards. The discreet protection thats just for guys. Now, its your turn. Get my Training Tips at guardyourmanhood. Com tonight, an inside look at the bush white house. Our exclusive interview with Vice PresidentRichard Bruce cheney. Im senator al simpson sitting in for Chris Matthews. Lets play hardball that really did happen. Obviously, the hardball theme music has improved immensely since 2001, but wait until you see this gem, this little moment from later on in that show. This is back in 2001. That interview with newly inaugurated Vice President dick cheney and hardball guest host alan simpson. We were talking about tip oneill. Right. Finish your remarks. This is a short segment. Tip was one of those men, he respected everybody in the house, regardless of party. You didnt get judged as being a lesser person in the house because you were a republican, and of course, thats where i first met Chris Matthews. And as a matter of fact, did battle with chris on a couple of occasions when he was the press secretary and aide to the speaker. But the speaker always had Great Respect and friendship with jerry ford, for example, from their days together in the house. I must say, i like chris much better as the anchor on hardball. Do you watch this show . I do watch the show very carefully. All of us who are political junkies and involved in the bids, hardballs an important part of our routine. March 2001. Former senator, finish your remarks, this is a short segment. Alan simpson filling in for the great Chris Matthews on hardball, a show that dick cheney says he never missed. Hold that thought. Theres more coming up. Did you know more coffee drinkers prefer the taste of gevalia house blend over the taste of starbucks house blend . Not that we like tooting our own horn but. Toot toot. [ male announcer ] find gevalia in the coffee aisle or at gevalia. Com wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. Eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. The end of trial and error has arrived. Try a free sample at eucerinus. Com. The end of trial and error has arrived. Ido more with less with buless energy. Hp is helping ups do just that. Soon, the worlds most intelligent servers, designed by hp, will give ups over twice the performance, using forty percent less energy. Multiply that across over a thousand locations, and theyll provide the same benefit to the environment as over 60,000 trees. Thats a trend we can all get behind. Republican freshman senator ted cruz of texas has a new favorite way to close out his speeches. Listen to this. This is how ted cruz, mr. Shutdown, right, this is how he closed out his speech at the values voter summit this weekend. As Ronald Reagan famously observed, freedom is not passed down in the bloodstream from one generation to the next. Every generation has to rise up and defend it, or one day, we will find ourselves answering questions from our children and our childrens children, what was it like when america was free . None of us will ever have to answer that question, because together, the American People, we are going to restore that shining city on a hill that is the United States of america ted cruz, quoting Ronald Reagan, misquoting John Winthrop, who never said that the city on the hill was shining. In 1630, John Winthrop said forewe must consider that we should be a city upon a hill, not a shining city, just a city. Reagan misquoted winthrop to make the city shiny and it stuck for some reason and thats why everybody thinks its a quote. Anyway, the other thing that Ronald Reagan said that ted cruz repeats in his speeches now is actually quoting Ronald Reagan from the early 60s, from before he was elected to any office. When he was just an actor and a conservative activist. And he worked as a kind of spokesmodel with the American Medical Association in a Public Campaign against a terrible new sovietstyle communist takeover of the American Health care system. Actor Ronald Reagan in the early 60s warned about how this socialistic Health Scheme would destroy this nation and grind our freedoms under its totalitarian bootheel. This program, i promise you, will pass just as surely as the sun will come up tomorrow. And behind it will come other federal programs that will invade every area of freedom as we have known it in this country until, one day, as Norman Thomas said, we will awake to find that we have socialism. And if you dont do this, and if i dont do it, one of these days, you and i are going to spend our sunset years telling our children and our childrens children what it once was like in america when men were free. Ronald reagan warned us. He warned the country that freedom itself would cease to exist if america passed that Terrible Health care program, and that Terrible Health care program made us into a soviet socialist republic where men were no longer free, that program, of course, was medicare. Turns out, america and freedom did survive medicare. And Ronald Reagan came around to it enough that by the time he was president , he actually chose to expand medicare, about which freshman senator ted cruz is not at all embarrassed, as he now quotes that specific line from Ronald Reagan to raise the alarm over another federal Health Program that is much less of a leap into the gaping soviet maw than medicare ever was. My beloved colleague and pal, Chris Matthews, has just published the besttimed book ever about the real legacy of Ronald Reagans approach to governance, specifically his contentious but civil working relationship with the legendary democratic speaker of the house tip oneill. Joining us for an interview with the host of msnbcs hardball, author of the new book tip and the gipper when politics worked, mr. Chris matthews. Good to have you here tonight. Congratulations on the success of this week. Thank you. Thanks, rache. When you hear ted cruz quoting Ronald Reagan, alluding to the quote about medicare without saying thats what its about, reagan raised the debt ceiling 18 times as president. What is it about the real history that is so dangerous to them that they have to invent revisionist stuff instead . Fortunately, i kept a journal, president reagan kept a diary and there are records of what was the case. Ronald reagan in his mind when he went to bed at night or thought about things was Ronald Reagan the commentator, but Ronald Reagan, the governor, Ronald Reagan the president was a very different kind of a fish. Ronald reagan realized when he cut taxes too much that he won, he came back a year later and had the biggest tax increase in history. That doesnt get into the ted cruz record book. He realized that Social Security was a very popular program, and after trying to mess with it in 81 and 82, he came back in 83 with a very progressive fix for Social Security thats lasted all the generations since. So, there was the Ronald Reagan in that record that he put out, that 78 rpm record in the 1960s, but he got back down to reality, and thanks to nancy reagan, his wife who i spent time with this weekend, and very much thanks to jim baker, he was a pracht capital conservative, like the british conservatives accepted National Health after they got back into power with churchill in his second premiership. They didnt go back in time. They realized the public in fact, the best quote on this was george f. Will, who said americans are conservative, they want to conserve the new deal, and thats just a fact. We are that way. And it is not communism, it is not dictatorship, it is very mild social democracy. And to say that theres something wrong with that is to say all of europe, australia, new zealand, the entire modern world is somehow captive to a system they dont believe in. Americans like medicare. They like the Prescription Drug program of george w. Bush and theyre going to like this, over time. Chris, in terms of reagans legacy, i think that i feel like, i look back at his policy, particularly looking at him around issues of war and peace and the scope of president ial powers and things around national security, and i feel like he was a pretty radical guy. But what youre documenting here is a sort of tactical consideration, a sort of tactical civility, a willingness to not tear down the government when you need to get done what you wanted to get done, when you needed it to enact your program. Is that whats missing, a basic expectation about process . Well, yeah, because with you know how he learned and developed. When he met gorbachev after tip had met him and said reagan wanted to meet you at a delegation and vouched for reagan, saying he really is sincere about reducing or eliminating Nuclear Weapons, who would you expect to do this . It was reagan who had warned against the soviets, said you cant negotiate with them, theyre dishonest, who went in there in his presidency and really made his place in history. As we all know why do people ignore this . He was not some crazy neocon hawk who kept invading countries. He signed the peace treat with gorbachev the minute he knew it could be done. He wanted to end the damn thing. He hated mutual destruction, hated Nuclear Weapons and its all in the record if anybody wants to see it. Again, there is a difference between reagan when he had responsibility and when he was just out there hawking columns and radio commentaries, a big difference. How do we end up with a conservative movement now that has fully embraced the guy on that 78 rpm record, fully embraced the ideologue but not the governor . Because we all embrace the winner. Look at the various variations of christianity, just to take a much larger notion. Theres 1,000 different versions of what christianity stands for. Does it stand for constantine and war enhoc signo vinces or for peace and love . People find different ways to use an iconic person like reagan. Are you, in writing about his relationship with oneill, trying to talk about so, reagan has been rayified, right . Made into a saint. Not by me. But for conservatives, he has. So, are you trying to elevate into their understanding of him the part of him that saw democrats as humans and saw compromise as the way you get things done . Look, in a country thats probably in our lifetimes, and maybe even your lifetime youll live longer, perhaps. I think you will. Were going to have a divided government. Its what we have. The countrys always going to be like the french, somewhere in the middle. Like the french people are, they never go hard left or hard right. Were always going to have a mix of democrat and republican, probably. One party will control maybe the presidency and one house the other and the other house. Theyve got to learn how to work together. There has to be compromise. The only alternative is what, a military coup . There is no alternative or absolute dysfunction. What i fear now, and it is something of a coincidence the book came out just now, is the thing is, tommy oneill, tips oldest son said, what those two guys agreed on was total dysfunction and stalemate was a disaster. The American People have to know, when they go and vote, its going to have a consequence. If they vote for reagan, theyre going to get some of reagan, maybe all of him for a while, then the people will see the limits of that. If they vote for obama, theyll get health care. They have to believe that. Thats whats going now, respect for the voter. Obama was reelected, he was elected, he got his bill through the supreme court. He did everything right and they went right back and tried to pull it back from him. And i think theyll learn a lesson, you cant do that. And this president , i hope, learns a lesson fear is better than love. He has got to learn, thats one thing reagan could teach him, scare the other guy so he wont come at you. Chris, when i look at the evolution of the two parties over the last 30 to 40 years, i feel like the Democratic Party had some choices to make, and essentially, in the clinton years, and its continued with obama, they decided to be sort of a centerleft party that basically defines itself as technocratic. The Republican Party, on the other hand, is still evolving in a way that i cant predict which way theyre going and people are now starting to talk seriously about the idea that they may have a permanent schism with this sort of southern style libertarianism tea party thing thats going on. I feel like the Democratic Party has taken a much more predictable trajectory over 30 or 40 years. Do you see it that way . I think very incremental. The democrats wanted to complete the social safety net and everyone knew going back to teddy roosevelt, not just fdr, that it was health care for all ages. Theyre doing it. As you know, in a modified way, no public option, just trying to do it so everybody roughly gets coverage so we can establish the principle that people who work for a living dont end up in the e. R. Thats a very simple principle i think the public does accept or will accept it completely. The Republican Party has really gone off the other end. I think youre seeing in these people a tad, a very bad tad of a joe mccarthy in this thing that cruz is up to, certainly a lot of newt gingrich, a lot of revolutionary anger thats unfocused, its free floating, and a lot of it has to do with we have our first black president. And if you dont believe that, look at that Confederate Flag you showed tonight. What is that about . They wouldnt have shown that if a white guy was in there. Theres something that bugs people about change today, demographic change we know about, and something that just riles them up against obama thats really Something Different than politics. I think its hatred. I dont think its politics. Chris matthews, host of msnbcs hardball, author of the great new book tip and the gipper when politics worked, which is already on the best seller list and deservedly so. Chris, again, congratulations. Thanks for being here, man. Thanks to my colleague. Thanks. Shutdown or no shutdown, there is an important and surprisingly close election for u. S. Senate two days from now. Why is it on a wednesday . Thats part of the story. Thats going on. Also, virginias getting weird again. And neither of those stories has anything to do with the shutdown or the debt ceiling, and theyre both coming up. Stay with us. Cook . Because an empty pan is a blank canvas. [ woman 2 ] to share a moment. [ man 1 ] to remember my grandmother. [ woman 3 ] to show my love. [ woman 4 ] because life needs flavor. [ woman 5 ] to travel the World Without leaving home. [ male announcer ] whatever the reason. Whatever the dish. Make it delicious with swanson. [ woman 1 ] thats why i cook. So when coverage really counts, count on nationwide insurance. Because whats precious to you is precious to us. Love, love is strange just another way we put members first. Because we dont have shareholders. Join the nation. Baby. Nationwide is on your side [ male announcer ] 1. 21 gigawatts. Today, thats easy. Ge is revolutionizing power. Supercharging turbines with advanced hardware and innovative software. Using data predictively to help power entire cities. So the turbines of today. Will power us all. Into the future. I see a world bursting with ideas, with ambition. Im thinking about china, brazil, india. The worlds a big place. I want to be a part of it. Ishares international etfs. Access to developed markets, emerging markets and single countries. Find out why nine out of ten large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. Ishares by blackrock. Call 1800ishares for a prospectus, which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. Read and consider it carefully before investing. Risk includes possible loss of principal. So, the threat of economic apocalypse does have a way of forcing Everything Else in the news off the front pages, but there is a lot else going on in the news right now, even just in Politics News theres a lot going on. New jerseys u. S. Senate special election is this week. Its being held on wednesday of this week, not on tuesday, which is a more normal day for an election. Thats apparently because new Jersey Governor Chris Christie on the right side of your screen there did not want to have his own reelection race next month on the same ballot as democrat cory bookers race for the senate seat. So, governor christie handpicked this week, wednesday, as the day that cory booker is allowed to have his senate race, and then new jersey will have to go vote again next month in the governors race. Weird, i know. In the senate race, mr. Booker for taking a previous allegation that corey booker is secretly gay and added a bunch of xrated descriptors. Also for the record, corey is not gay. This afternoon we got word that the alleged libyan terrorist has arrived in the United States and is expected to be arraigned in new york city tomorrow. He has been under indictment for decades. Since last weekend when u. S. Forces went to libya and grabbed him off of the street. And without being red his rights. That means that anything he told those during that time period is not going to be admissible. The organization for the prohibition of chemical weapons is the they won the peace prize on friday. The former head of the agency who the u. S. Forced out of the job in 2002 is fine finally pubically explaning now why he got fired. He said his agency was planning to do inspections in iraq. Presumably inspections would have shown that and that would have been very inconvene yept for the Bush Administration because of the argument for all the chemical weapons. No inspections means nobody to disprove the allegations. And based on those allegations, we invaded iraq. [ male announcer ] this is brad. His day of coaching begins with knee pain, when. [ man ] hey, brad, want to trade the allday relief of two aleve for six tylenol . Whats the catch . Theres no catch. You want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol . No. For my knee pain, nothing beats my aleve. 20 years with the company. Hool. No. Thousands of presentations. And one hard earned partnership. It took a lot of work to get this far. So now im supposed to take a back seat when it comes to my investments . Theres zero chance of that happening. Avo when you work with a schwab financial consultant, youll get the guidance you need with the control you want. Talk to us today. So i cant afford to have germy surfaces. But a fresh sheet of bounty duratowel leaves this surface cleaner than a germy dishcloth. Its durable. And its 3 times cleaner. So ditch your dishcloth and switch to bounty duratowel. Its durable. And its 3 times cleaner. Trust your instincts to make the call. To treat my low testosterone, my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. Axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. Axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. Women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. Report these symptoms to your doctor. Tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. Serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet or body swelling; enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. Common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting, and increase in psa. Ask your doctor about the only underarm low t treatment, axiron. Working in the news business, the best thing about coming to work on mondays is that you get to dig up the stuff that buried in a news dump. When it comes to governor ult tra sound it sounded like a greater than usual proportion and say whether or not he is going be indicted. Specifically on fridays after 9 00 p. M. Eastern. Well this past friday night it was news in the Washington Post about what governor bob mcdonald is said to have alleged to offer in exchange for gifts and cash. Emails obtained show that researchers at the mans company believe that their ceos friendship meant that they were going to get state funding for its research. Whether or not the governor did arrange for state funding is irrelevant. If you tell somebody give me a bribe and ill hook you up and then you dont hook them up, youre still guilty of taking the bribe. Youre just a liar as well as being a crook. Something went down between them that made the ceos company believe that the governor was going to hook them up with funding. The governor would like to sponsor these trials to research and entrepreneurship. The company flew that same scientist in the companys private plane to a weekend seminar on an island resort. Also on the private plane, also going to the seminar, this is really interesting. The chief of staff to Bob Mcdonalds wife. Then the following month that same state employee, she was there scheduling governor mcdonald to host a laumplg party for the companys magic tobacco pill. So the Washington Post asked the Mcdonald Administration about the first ladys chief of staff and what shes doing jetting off to this island resort with the head of this company who has been giving all of these gifts. Was this Virginia State business . What was she doing there . Here is how the Governors Office replied. Whatever the chief of staff may have said or done on that event, that was in her personal capacity. They suggested that maybe the chief of staff may have been trying to get a job but she was definitely not there working for the governor or his wife, which is who she worked for. They now have accept ral legal teams blaming the staff seems unlikely at this point. Nor does it matter that state money didnt pan out. If prosecutors find that there was a quid pro quo, then the failure to deliver the gifts will be no defense. The republican in the race has not led in the race for nearly three months. Belatedly paid back the gifts from the same guy who gifted bob