Clicking online on something that said barack obama or you gave people the option of clicking online on something that said mitt romney, more people would click on the thing that said barack obama. Consistently. By a lot. In a controversial article last summer right in the heat of the campaign, an article that acknowledged what everybody else in the media already knew was true, but had not admitted out loud, the website buzz of feed finally put a headline on it and put it up in black and white. Mitt romney is terrible for traffic. They mean web traffic. They did what essentially amounted to a control experiment in terms of peoples interest online in the two candidates. Look. 29 photos of baby barack obama versus 30 photos of mitt romney as a child. Essentially, youre offering the same thing. Reliably adorable childhood images of people you know now as full grown men. Its the same comparison, apples to apples. The photos of baby obama got just under 70,000 views. The photos of baby romney just over 6,000 views. That is worse than 10 to 1. Okay, maybe its a baby thing. How about if we age them a little. Barack obama, i have to say, was not the worlds most handsome teenager. Those were kind of his awkward years, whereas mitt romney was quite possibly the worlds best teenager. They both ended up as very handsome adult men, but they went through their awkward periods, their gawky periods at different ages. But even with that, again, the young man photos of barack obama get roughly 70,000 views. The comparable votes of young man mitt romney get less than 1 5 that number. This is not a republican versus democrat thing or a conservative versus liberal thing either. At the height of her powers, put sarah palins click per headline stats up against any democrat you can imagine or any combination of democrats you can imagine and she would blow everybody out of the water. Conservatives can attract interest. Just not this one, for whatever reason. The Romney Campaign even today is still trying to defend their Online Presence during the president ial campaign. The Campaign Senior strategist wrote in the op said in the Washington Post today that president obama did not win the election because he won the facebook wars. He won the facebook wars because he was winning the election. Whatever you need to tell yourself, big guy. But regardless whether or not it was the fault of the romney folks, peoples relative disinterest in him compared to his democratic opponent ended up being an important dynamic. It ended up being an important part of understanding how that campaign unfolded overall. Well, that controversial but true story from buzzfeed about the relative online appeal of each candidate, that was last summer, june of 2012. Mitt romney is terrible for traffic. Now buzzfeed has given us the sequel. Now we must all admit that there is another thing that is terrible for traffic, a thing that i will not say outloud for fear that you will turn off this Television Show if i do. It is the thing going on in washington right now that is a crisis, a selfinflicted preplanned crisis that the white house and congress agreed ahead of time to inflict on themselves and on the country. It turns out it is the 2013 equivalent of a baby picture of mitt romney in 2012. Awww, yeah, not interesting. The pugh researcher for the people in the press did a big Research Poll where they asked people what theyre paying attention to in the news. It turns out that selfinflicted crises in washington arent what they used to. They compared crises in the first big fight over the debt ceiling that president obama had with congress in the summer of 2011. They found half the country was paying a lot of attention to that crisis. Compare that to the number of people paying attention to this crisis, which substantively is just as big a deal. It turns out its only half as interesting to the country. Only 27 of the country is paying a great deal attention to this Current Crisis. And honestly, you know what . You can see why. This is not the part where im going to give you some lament about the country being shallow or craven or easily distracted. I think actually were smart, and we do not like falling for things more than once. And what they are pulling in washington right now is an old trick. For the first two years that president obama was in office, you will recall that democrats also controlled the house and the senate. And together they passed health reform, they passed wall street reform, they passed the Lilly Ledbetter pay act, they reformed credit cards, ratified start treaty. They got a lot done, which is what you would expect to when one Party Controls the branches. Then in 2010, as is wont to happen, the pendulum swung back in the other direction and the republicans took control of the house. Once republicans got sworn in january 2011, we started this new game that we do now as a country. Republicans were sworn in the house in january. By early april, just a few short weeks later, a couple of months after taking over the house, they were already veering within less an hour of a Government Shutdown. House Speaker John Boehner announces the deal just before 11 00 p. M. The agreement comes together in a few frantic hours at the capitol with a mid light deadline looming. That was the drama, remember . The first Government Shutdown fun times fight of the new congress. Thats the one where just about the last republican demand standing which they ultimately let go of was shutting down funding for planned parenthood. They put the whole government hinging on that. That was april 2011. Three months after they got sworn in, they came within minutes of shutting down the government. And then three months after that, ding ding ding, time future a crisis again. July 2011. It was the downtothewire selfimposed haironfire crisis of the debt ceiling. We might not make good on the countrys debts. Were going the make this a crisis when we dont need to. But were going to selfinflict this crisis. Running up to that brink got our nations Credit Rating downgraded. And that was so much fun, they didnt even wait three months for the next selfimposed crisis. They threatened another shutdown in september 2011. This time shutdown averted with just days to spare. And then we took a break for the election. And as soon as the election was over, everybody rushed back to the brink. December 2012, the fiscal cliff. Selfimposed crisis. Economic armageddon. Everybody cancel your new years plans. We have arranged a new crisis for ourselves. And as planned, we are on if brink. And now were having another one. Its apparently our odd year cycle now. When were in an odd year when there isnt an election going on, every two or three months, we put the country in dire economic danger on purpose. And the reason i me that thats the schedule is because after this Current Crisis whose name shall not be spoken on this Television Show, after this Current Crisis passes, however it gets resolved, the next two crises were going to have are already preplanned. Theyre already on the calendar. Were going to be due for another Government Shutdown standoff, fun times crisis next month, and then the next debt ceiling crisis is already teed up for a short time later, roughly in may. President obama spoke to the nations governors today gathered for the National Governors association meeting. He asked governors to advise their congressional delegations about how this Current Crisis would hurt their state, how it would be a dumb and serious selfinflicted wound, and congress shouldnt do it. House Republican Leaders held a press Conference Today in which they each explained in term how bad this crisis will be if they do not fix it before the brink arrived a the end of the week, and they also announce theyd plan to do nothing to avoid it. Their strategy seems to be yes, this will be an unnecessary selfinflicted wound to the country, but we plan to let it happen anyway, and somehow we plan to benefit from it politically anyway because we have genius political messaging around this selfinflicted wound. What is the allhealing republican messaging around this crisis . Well, if you ask orrin hatch, he says it would lead to an economic disaster. If you ask his republican colleague tom price, congressman, it would get this economy rolling again. According to republican congressman jeff miller, this crisis will throw our nation into another recession. If you ask republican senator rand paul, this crisis, its a pittance. Its just really nibbling at the edges. No big deal. Republican house Speaker John Boehner says this crisis threatens National Security. Republican congressman tom cole says fiscal questions trump defense. I can totally see how they are going to win the message war on this thing, right . They just have to pick one of their seven messages on it before deciding to award the points here. How this particular crisis is fought over to some people im sure is politically fascinating. To most of the country, though, it is unfascinating. It is not fascinating at all. It seems like the inarguably important and interesting thing here is that we keep doing this. This is how we govern now. Between president obama and the republicanled house of representatives, this is how the United StatesGovernment Works now. Were not lurching from crisis to crisis because crises keep arising naturally in the world and we have to respond to them, were lurching from crisis to crisis to crisis to crisis because we keep creating new crises on purpose to lurch toward. This is a plan. The relationship between the president and congress has been purposefully structured now so they accomplish the basic questions of governing only threw supposed leverage derived from threatening the country and people feeling afraid of those cuts. But now wolf has been cried. This trick is old enough now that this may be a crisis in term of the harm that is about to be inflicted on the country, but it is not a crisis in the sense that anybody feels particularly crisisy about it. Nobody feels any one way in particular about it. Everybody is trying not to think about it, because this just keeps happening over and over again. This is a tactic. This is one way you can run a country. But if this tactic depends on us being riveted through fear or outrage or just interest or sheer deadlinedriven drama, thats over. It doesnt work anymore. We have done this enough times now that were inured. Were over it. So now what this tactic means is you are just wantonly proposing harming the country. And we are waiting without much interest to see whether or not youre going to do it. Do normal countries do this . Do normal countries govern this way . Is this in any sense normal for us . Has our country ever been run this way before for a significant amount of time . Joining us now is michael beschloss, nbc president ial historian and author of nine books on politics and political figures. Great to see you. Good to see you, rachel, of course. The last question there, does this happen at other times in American History where the president and the congress function this way . Not quite like this. You know, this was James Madisons idea, that you would have a presidency and a congress opposing each other. That way no one would get too much power. But if madison came back tonight, i think he would tear out what little hair he had. And the reason is that you saw someone like Andrew Jackson or harry truman campaigning against congress well and good. But its only in recent years that youve had this almost nuclear game of chicken that were seeing now and we also saw in 1995 with bill clinton and newt gingrich. And i think one dangerous thing about right now is that on both sides, people tend to be a little bit sanguine in remembering 1995. Through a political lens, there may even be some democrats who say it turned out to be good for the democrats because clinton was able to position himself as a moderate, keeping the barbarians from the gate. And on the republican side they can say yes, we took some heat for being confrontational, but didnt we win both houses of congress in 1996 . So i think that memory is a very dangerous thing. And it certainly isnt a break on this rush to the edge of destruction that were seeing right now. Because the fights are over fiscal issues and Economic Issues broadly speaking, i have to ask about how much of a threat to the country we are seeing and how much actual damage we are seeing inflicted. I mean republicans in particular have argued a lot about the idea of economic uncertainty. Sure. That we should pursue governments in a way that we dont put too many question marks ahead of the American People and business in terms of what is coming down the pike. Is harm being done, is there a historical lens we can tell whether or not its being done . I think bill clinton would have said that in 1993. He had a deficit Reduction Plan that he sent to congress with an effort to give people an idea of what they could expect from this economy. And if he were here, he would complain that not a single republican on either side voted for his plan. So that would have been against the idea of economic security. But at the same time, there may be some republicans, and i hope there sure are not, but some of them may ebb the fact that when there is a recession, it usually isnt named after someone in congress. Its usually named after a president. And i hope that some are not cavalier about that idea. That. Has been alleged off and on over the past few years by democrats talking about republican obstruction in the congress. Right. And theyve always resisted it. But that has to loom over this. In terms of strategy, both sides have been talking about, and in some cases complaining about the outside game, whether or not it is appropriate to try to be engaging with the American People through the media, through political events rather than negotiating, rather than working in washington. What do you see how do i dont see the white houses effort to try to take its message on this directly to the states and the people . I think it will help, but it wont help in the way that it helped bill clinton to do that in 1995, because in 1995, a president s voice was a lot more dominant than it is right now. There was only one Cable Television network. The internet was primitive. A president had a lot bigger role in the National Dialogue than a president does now. So i think barack obama cannot depend on his ability to frame this in a way that he would like to see it framed. One last question for you, and this may be prescriptive in the way i ask it, in which case you can scold me or not answer. I would never scold you, rachel. When president s have had particularly difficult relationships with congress in the past, what are the ways out of that for president s . Obviously, part of it is blunt force, just win further elections. Sure. By increasingly bludgeoning numbers and overwhelming your opponents. Thats one approach. Everybody wants to do that, but not everybody can. Right. How else have president s gotten themselves out of messes like this . Hate to say it, rachel, but one way they did it is to say were in a cold war, and if we do not make it up with our opponents in congress, its going to be a danger to National Security. If we dont have money going to military bases, that might invite the soviets to attack. One reason you have seen these confrontations in 95 and now, now you wouldnt have seen it during the cold war. Now there is no longer that kind of overwhelming threat. And so i think congress feels and president s, people around president s sometimes feel its not as dangerous. Michael beschloss, nbc historian. I both feel smarter from talking to you and i feel lucky to have you here. Thank you, rachel. Thanks very much. All right. Former White House Press secretary robert gibbs turned a lot of heads over the weekend when he spoke out recording the obama administrations controversial Drone Program. He did that on chris hayes show yesterday, and it was kind of a blockbuster. Robert gibbs is here tonight to talk about the implications of what he revealed. And later on, an oscar fashion story from me, which is awkward for obvious reasons, took the government of iran to make it possible on this show. Stay tuned. If you think most hybrids are a bit under sized then this will be a nice surprise. Meet the 5passenger ford cmax hybrid. Cmax come. Cmax go. Cmax give a ride to everyone it knows. C max has more passenger volume than competitor prius v and we havent even mentioned. Cmax also gets better mpg. Say hi to the super fuel efficient ford cmax hybrid. [ male announcer ] how could switchgrass in argentina, change engineering in dubai, aluminum production in south africa, and the Aerospace Industry in the u. S. . At t. Rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. Its just one reason over 75 of our mutual funds beat their 10year lipper average. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing. Hey, its election eve. That story is coming up. Plus, robert gibbs is here for the interview after the proverbial bombshell he dropped on chris hayes show yesterday on msnbc. Plus, fake tshirts. Shiny, spangly pretty tshirts that are not real that are being faked in todays news. Thats all ahead. You know my heart burns for you. Im up next, but now im singing the heartburn blues. Hold on, prilosec isnt for fast relief. Cue up alkaseltzer. It stops heartburn fast. Oh what a relief it is okay why . More is better than less because if stuff is not le if there is more less stuff then you might want to have some more and your parents just dont let you because theres only a little bit. Right. We want more, we want more. Like you really like it, you want more. Right. I follow you. [ male announcer ] its not complicated. More is better. And at t has the nations largest 4g network. The New York Times reports that yesterday, shortly after 1 00 p. M. Eastern, right in the middle of times square, a group of about 200 people who had just been Milling Around like ordinary tourists or like ordinary new yorkers, yesterday all at once on some secret signal, the 200 of them all threw their hands into the air at the same time and held their hands above their head, frozen, with no explanation. A long moment passed, and then they all sunk to the ground at the same time. 26 seconds elapsed. 26 seconds to represent the 26 victims killed in the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in december. With the symbolic victims laying on the ground in times square, others drew chalk outlines around their bodies and wrote in the victims names there has been lat of public pressure since the sandy hook shootings to advance the discussion on gun control and gun violence. This pressure has come in many, many different forms. Speeches, marches, protests, and now big flash mobs in times square. Tomorrow in illinois were going to get one of our first tests for how well that public pressure has worked. That story is coming up. Also, weve got robert gibbs here on set. Stay with us. Lobsterfest is the king of all promotions. Theres nothing like our grilled lobster and lobster tacos. The bar harbor bake is really worth trying. [ male announcer ] get more during red lobsters lobsterfest. With the years Largest Selection of mouthwatering lobster entrees. Like our delicious lobster lovers dream, featuring two kinds of succulent lobster tails. Or our savory, new grilled Maine Lobster and lobster tacos. Its back, but not for long. [ woman ] our guests go crazy for lobsterfest. My favorite entree is the lobster lovers dream. Whats yours . Come celebrate lobsterfest and sea food differently. Because every flake is doubletoasted. Splashed with sweet honey. And covered in rich doubleroasted peanuts. Mmm. [ hero ] yummy. 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In fact, in a recent survey, 95 of people who tried it agreed that it relieved their headache fast. Visit fastreliefchallenge. Com today for a special trial offer. Happy election eve. In the first election for federal office since we picked a president , vote willing begin tomorrow at 6 00 a. M. This will be the primary for the congressional seat that Jesse Jackson jr. Resigned back in november. The district is in chicago and in a chunk of the citys southern suburbs. Its a heavily democratic district. Whoever wins the primary tomorrow is consider likely to win the seat overall and to take a seat in congress in april. Because of the juicy democratic prospects, at the outset, 17 different democrats lined up to compete in this primary, which is crazy. The candidate with the most name recognition was former congresswoman Debbie Halvorson, a supporter of gun rights who touts her a rating with the National Rifle association. Or who did tout that rating with the National Rifle association before this year. Because this is both the first election for federal office since we picked a president , and also the First Federal election since newtown, since the elementary massacre at sandy hook elementary in december. Even though she has touted her a rating from the nra in the past, now Debbie Halvorson is now touting her support for universal background checks for gun purchases. This time around she insists she has not lobbied the nra for an endorsement. Ooh, Debbie Halvorson pals with the nra . You have the wrong number. That a rating from the nra must have been a political asset in the past, but now must seem more than its worth. In january bloomberg started running ads against Debbie Halvorson and another candidate in the race who also had an a rating from the nra. The ads have been inescapable in chicago and on tv. And even if you dont watch tv, a, you should. Tv is way better now. But b, the Bloomberg Group has still been inescapable in the form of mailers to people they have been sending out in the district. Lots and lots of mailers. Quote, Debbie Halvorson put the nra before our familys safety. And Debbie Halvorson, a from the nra, f from illinois families. And Debbie Halvorsons views on guns earned an a from the nra. If the nra says yes, we should say no. But the Bloomberg Pac ad onslaught making the nra and guns a big issue in this race, one of the formally pro nra candidates decided that she would drop out. State senator Toi Hutchinson left the race 48 hours after the Bloomberg Pac started advertising against her by name as well. Gun reform was not all that big an issue at the beginning. But now that Mike Bloomberg has spent more than 2 million on this race, being seen as once an ally of the nra is apparently enough to get you to quit the race. And now tonight on the eve of the election, whether that all is enough to determine the winner of the primary, we do not know. And the hints about what is going to happen tomorrow are all wobbly, and therefore very interesting. One poll shows Debbie Halvorson with a fourpoint lead even after all that bloomberg spending against her. Now this poll i should tell you is the work of a local radio host and republican strategist, who was convicted a few years ago for falsifying signatures. He told us today we should not hold that against him. He just got caught on the wrong end of a political prosecution. Anyway, his poll shows Debbie Halvorson leading the progun reform candidate who was endorsed by the Bloomberg Pac, thats robin kelly. A different poll from we ask america shows a very different result in the same race. In that poll, robin kelly leads by 18 points. Now on this one i should tell you that the folks who conducted this survey describe it as an automated poll they did for a local political website. They would not release the full details of the poll. So we know very little about it. And we vouch for it as little as we vouch for the other poll. The only thing we know, of the two candidates we have got, the two kind of eh polls, robin kelly is in one of them up by 17 or 18 points, and in the other down by 4 points to Debbie Halvorson. Further, the Chicago Press is describing this as a threeway race now, not a twoway race. Former congresswoman Debbie Halvorson with the name recognition and the nra gold star, former state lawmaker robin kelly, who has based almost her entire campaign on stopping gun violence and who lives in the suburbs, but also another guy, chicago Alderman Anthony beale. Alderman beales chance depends on turning out the wards in chicago where he was first elected in 1999. Because this is a primary for a special election in a very off year, turnout is expected to be low. Maybe as low as 20,000. And thats interesting enough, because a turnout of 20,000, Congressional District to represent hundreds of thousands of people. But 20,000 people are going to make the decision . Thats low enough that any sway in any direction, any undertheradar vote could swing this thing. And there is no runoff here. Its winner take all, highest tally gets the nod. Fascinating. Polls open at 6 00 a. M. And close at 7 00 p. M. Local time in chicago. We will bring you the results tomorrow as we get them in. If youthen this willbrids arbe a nice surprise. Meet the 5passenger ford cmax hybrid. Cmax come. Cmax go. Cmax give a ride to everyone it knows. C max has more passenger volume than competitor prius v and we havent even mentioned. Cmax also gets better mpg. Say hi to the super fuel efficient ford cmax hybrid. That make kids happy. And even fewer that make moms happy too. 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In light of the times square bomber citing drone strikes for doing what he did, wonder if there are any more discussions within the administration about that policy . None that i would get into publicly. A u. S. Drone strike killed eight germans in pakistan today. Do you have any information about that . I dont. And if i did, if i did, i wouldnt get into it. No. No. And other u. S. Officials have confirmed these predator drone air strikes in pakistan. What is it about not confirming whether the president was consulted im not going to get into these matters. Compromise organizational im not going to get into these matters. Dont you think there is justifiable curiosity i think there are many things you should be justifiably curious about, but im not going to get into talking about it. If other members of the government are confirming this, why are you not im not going to get into these matters. Keep asking. There will be no answers. It was not just robert gibbs problem. It turns out it is a problem of that job, no matter who has the job. Reported a drone strike today along the border region. As you know, afghan and pakistani officials have been vocal about their concerns about them possibly killing civilians as opposed to terrorists. What can you say to address their concerns . And can you talk a little bit about the president s thinking about when it comes to drone strikes . You know, i wont talk about anything specific like that. Did drone strikes make it les simple to the American People to understand when these are secret and often done without youre trying to get me to talk about things that i cant talk about from the podium. The president has acknowledged the drones. Why cant you . Again, im just going to point you to what he said and not discuss further this issue. Its a facade. Its silly. Bill, im sorry. John brennans confirmed cia director. Is it safe to assume the Drone Program will continue . Im just not going to. I think there have been some discussion of the Drone Program as it relates to the department of defense. But im not going to get into any further discussion of it here. At the last bit there, there was a clue. As it relates to the department of defense. So maybe the department of defense is the police to ask. Maybe we have been asking in the wrong place. Lets ask at the department of defense. Lets ask the military. Ask you for an update on pentagon Drone Operations. Probably not. Well, lets hear what you have to say when i ask the question. Okay. It has now been widely acknowledged that the u. S. Military earlier this year, the military, pentagon, flew Drone Operations over pakistans border region in cooperation with the pakistanis to collect reconnaissance information and show it to them. Can you talk about why the u. S. Military is now flying Drone Operations or did fly Drone Operations over pakistan . I cant. I know you say its widely acknowledged. I dont know how widely anything has been acknowledged on that count. I dont think its appropriate for me at this podium to discuss operations that may or may not be taking place. What concerns do you have that these u. S. Government drone strikes in pakistan may be backfiring now and simply creating more enemies of the United States . I refer your questions to other people. Thats not something we speak to or are involved in. Who would you refer them to, jeff . Where should i do you not want a question, justin . I do want a question, but barbara is still talking. Barbara, do you have a follow . Would you tell me where you would refer that to . You would have to talk to somebody other than the pentagon. We dont talk to those operational matters because they dont involve us. Yes. They dont involve us. You have to talk to somebody not here. I refer your questions to other people. I think he is talking about the cia. Lets check with the cia then to see how the cia handles these questions at their daily press briefs. All right. They dont do that. And so thats where questions about this policy go to die. This week in addition to the chuck hagel defense secretary nomination, the senate is expected to advance president obamas nominee to head the cia, john brennan. Senator john mccain is proposing holding up the nomination of john brennan because, well, john mccain. But even in the midst of that conflict, there is an interesting confluence of opinion right now that something major should be changed in mr. Brennans field of expertise. Mr. Brennan broached the subject in a Washington Post profile that ran about him last october. The acting director of the cia from whom mr. Brennan would take over if he is confirmed, that acting director raised the issue in an article the New York Times published about the cia in december. And now the man, the republican senator who is threatening to hold up the brennan nomination so the acting director has to stay on, this republican senator, he too says that he agrees that Something Big needs to be changed. What we really need to do is take this whole program out of the hands of the Central Intelligence agency and put it into the department of defense where you have adequate oversight, you have committee oversights, you have all the things that are built in as our oversight the department of defense. But since when is the Intelligence Agency supposed to be an air force of drones that goes around killing people . I believe that its a job for the department of defense. So says john mccain. So says the man whose nomination john mccain is threatening to block. So says the man who be replaced by the nomination john mccain is threatening to block. What if drones were used like normal tools of war . What if drones were used by the military instead of by our government that makes grown men have to deny to our faces that we know something is going on. That would stop the oh, no you didnt denial that has sometimes made a joke out of the job of sometimes explaining the actions of the United States of america. Lets ask a guy who is in a position to know, because he recently had that job. Well be right back with that. Ive been coloring lizs hair for years. But lately shes been coming in with less gray than usual. Whats she up to . The new root touchup by nicen easy has the most shade choices, designed to match even salon color in just 10 minutes. With the new root touchup, all they see is you. Designed to match even salon color in just 10 minutes. How sharp is your Business Security . O can it help protect your people and property, while keeping out threats to your operations . Its not working yes it is. Welcome to tyco integrated security. 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You know my heart burns for you. Im up next, but now im singing the heartburn blues. Hold on, prilosec isnt for fast relief. Cue up alkaseltzer. It stops heartburn fast. Oh what a relief it is do you think the white house has been forthcoming, sufficiently forth coming . We have these seven memos right now. We havent seen any of those. Right. The white paper got released right before brennan, not by the white house, but leak apparently. Do you think you have been sufficiently forthcoming and the white house has been sufficiently forth coming on this stuff . Well, i think you have seen recently the president discuss the need and desire to be more forthcoming. I certainly think there are aspects of that program that are and will remain highly sensitive and very secret be. Let me give you an example here, chris. When i went through the process of becoming press secretary, one of the things, one of the first things they told me was youre not even to acknowledge the Drone Program. Youre not even to discuss that it exists. Wow. So i would get a question like that, and literally, i couldnt tell you what major ask, once i figured out its about the Drone Program, i figure out im not supposed to talk about. Here is what is inherently crazy about that proposition. Youre being asked a question base on reporting of a program that exists. Right. So youre the official government spokesperson. Exactly. Acting as if the entire program pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I think in many ways, and i think what the president has seen, and i have not talked to him about this. I want to be careful. This is my opinion. But i think what the president has seen is our denial of the existence of the program when its obviously happening undermines peoples confidence overall in the decisions that their government makes. And in order to bolster that confidence and bolster the belief that were making those correct decisions on this policy, you do have to lift the veil some to both acknowledge that it exists, as he has done, but also to do it in a way that provides better understanding. Former White House Press secretary robert gibbs speaking with chris hayes on up with chris hayes this weekend on msnbc. Joining us for the interview is robert gibbs. He was White House Press secretary for the obama administration. He is now an msnbc contributor, and hopefully not regretting it yet. Not yet. Ill tell you in a few minutes. All right. Well, why were you told that you cant talk about it . Why were you told you cant acknowledge the existence of the program . Well, part of this program is highly classified, highly top secret. And quite frankly, this program has existed for many years. And very few, if any have ever publicly acknowledged that. That started that changed a bit last year late april of 2012 when john brennan, who understood probably better than anybody the inherent tension that i spoke about, which is its not sustainable to have somebody sitting in the front row of the White House Briefing room, or any journalist reading in the newspaper about a terrorist that has been killed by a program that when you ask me about it, i dont even talk about the fact that the program is there. He understood there was that inherent unsustainable tension, and that some transparency absolutely had to take place. Thats why i think if you and if your viewers go back and look at that speech that john gives in april of 2012, its an extraordinary speech. It took a long time to get that speech through the bureaucracy and through the government so that somebody could finally on camera begin to speak about what this program entails. Going through the transcripts of all the different White House Press briefs. Painful. But you saw after that speech, instead of you having to say i will not speak about this, instead we see jay carney being able to say i refer you to mr. Brennans speech. Right. And that could be the on record comment about it. But let me ask you specifically. I mean drones are a tool. Theyre not there is nothing magic about them. There is nothing different about them than other forms of waging war. We drop the same missiles from other platforms as well. Could you talk about a drone strike that was operated by the u. S. Military in afghanistan, but you couldnt talk about one that was operated by another Government Agency somewhere else . You probably would have a lot more leeway as i think john has talked about. You would have a lot morley way if you moved the military activities of our government specifically into the military. The government, the part of the government that does military. Now, thats not to say the Intelligence Community doesnt have a big role to play. Intelligence gathering, identifying where the bad guys are should and always will be the mission of the Central Intelligence agency and all of our intelligence agencies. But i think what john believes is when we need to deal with any aspect of military activities, those military activities should be conducted by the pentagon. And i think that, again, is a change in the program because, again, john understands where we are is just not sustainable. It would change a lot this is the argument that john mccain has made, and i agree with him on very little, National Security and otherwise. But the argument he has made is actually what seems right to me, which is that its not necessarily an operational distinction between who can fly the drone. The military is very adept at flying drones and killing people with them. The issue is legal and democratic. Its in terms of the types of accountability and oversight that we have are different between something being done by the cia and something done absolutely. Different parts of the law. And more importantly, i will say this, the Drone Program has saved lives in this country. It has saved a lot of lives in our military. It is its a program that has done great damage to al qaeda. And thats a very, very good thing. I dont think that is the controversial part of it. I think the controversial part of it is we seem to be waging war with part of our country that isnt designed to be accountable to us as civilians for warmaking. And again, i think thats the important aspect of what the president said during the state of the union was to say, look, we are a democracy. We are a country that is bigger than any one person, regardless of who that president is. That president always has to be accountable to the people. Thats the type of change that john was pushing for in that april speech. Okay. So two questions come from that for me. Mike morel, the acting director of the cia, Foreign Policy heads like john mccain in the senate, making the argument that it should be military instead of i think john has been at the forefront of this. It was johns idea to give that speech in april. Its johns idea to understand we had something unsustainable. You cannot continue with this program in the society and democracy and the values that we have in it by continuing to hide something and keep it under such depths of secrecy and not to have some real genuine oversight. I understand the argument for why operations have to be secret. I dont understand why law has to be secret. I dont understand how we can in a democratic system, as youre suggesting, have something that kills many people. That goes on for years and a large Scale Program that the government denies. Theres still that issue of secret law. After we heard from the president that we cant take my word for it, we need to have more transparency we have the intelligence trying to pry those memos out the white house. That breaks a secret law which doesnt seem in line with the president s assertions. First of all, i think the beginnings of the memos that were seeing by the Intelligence Committee were released because of part of that transparency. The operation can be classified. How can the law be classified . I think youll see the beginnings of walking people through the legal justification of these programs. Thats what the president believes and the president believes are so important to make more public. There will always be aspects of this program. It always will be highlight hig classified. Youll see the beginning as you heard john do and the president in the state of the union to begin to lift that veil. I think were in an incredibly interesting intense moment because i think john brennan and president obama have made great arguments for lifting that veil. Thanks for being here. Thank you. Its good to see you. Well be right back. Capella university understands businesses are trying to come back from rough economic times. Employees are being forced to do more with less. And the need for capable leaders is greater than ever. When you see these problems do you take a step back, or do you want to dive right in . With a degree in business from capella university, youll have the knowledge to go further in your career than you ever thought possible. Lets get started at capella. Edu plus the perfecting color of a bb cream equal . Introducing the newest beauty trend. Total effects cc cream c for color. C for correction. [ female announcer ] fight 7 signs of aging flawlessly. Cc whats possible. But im still stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesnt unstuff your nose. What . 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After that the veevent itself i five hours long. Then everybody tweets and facebooks and declares who made the worst jokes. My favorite part of oscar aftermath is when we find out whey iran thought. Last year iran thought very body things about the oscars. It was the second film to be no, maam nominated. The director gave his acceptance speech and apparently that was a problem. The director gave his ae speech and apparently that was a problem. Nominated. The director gave his acceptance speech and apparently that was a problem. The director gave his ae speech and apparently that was a problem. I offer this to my country. Its nice. Thats what he said on oscar night. The state awe proved news agency in iran did not like that speech at all. They disliked it so much that they enhanced it. They changed. He said i proudly offer this award to people of my country, people who respect all cultures. Thats not what he said. Irans oscar aftermath is all about making the oscars into what iran needs the oscars to be. Thats what happened last year. This years oscar aftermath was weirder. Michelle obama did the best picture award last night. The oscar went to argo. Irans state sponsor media was not psyched that argo won best picture. You look at the headline. Over at the fars news agency, the same up with that enhanced the directors steacceptance speech. That is not what First Lady Michelle Obama wore at the oscars. You can see irans state are you positive media digitally altered Michelle Obamas shoulder bearing gown with the low square fut neckline and they made it look like she was wearing a sparkly silver tshirt. They photo shopped her into a whole new outfit that she did not