also, it's the end of the silly season. what do republicans do without talking about birth certificates and college records? and our poker-faced president? we'll show you what president obama was saying publicly while privately, of course, he was approving plans to take out bin laden. and let me finish with the republicans. what can you say about a party that gives more credit to george w. bush than to president obama for capturing bin laden? we start with mission accomplished. we have a reporter for "the new york times" and an iraq war veteran and founder and executive director of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america. gentlemen, thank you both for coming. i want to ask a tough question which has been circulating with our producers and everyone here at "hardball." are you able to say now, authoritatively, mark, as a reporter for "the times" going to deadline tonight whether torture was necessary to catch osama? >> well, all of the reporting we've done so far that the information that led to the raid on sunday night did come from detainees, but it doesn't come from what the cia called enhanced interrogation that took place in the few years after september 11. there were a couple of high-value detainees who were waterboarded, of course. but it doesn't appear that they gave up information that led to the raid during the course of this harsh interrogation. so, it doesn't appear to be a strong link at this point. >> so as far as you can report to us tonight, nobody broke under torture, under waterboarding, and gave up the name of the courier? or even the code name of the courier? >> no. the courier they had heard about, it was brought to ksm and another man, and in fact, they denied ever knowing him, even after the harsh interrogation. and that actually raised suspicions of the cia that maybe this guy was important because these guys were denying knowing him. >> that's interesting. paul, what have you been able to pick up the role that torture played, and we mean waterboarding, in getting the necessary information? >> i honestly have no idea, chris. mark is on the inside of that. the scuttle in our community, the military community, is really about pride and about almost awe of what the navy s.e.a.l.s can do, especially s.e.a.l. team six. >> let's go with that. i respect your service and your knowledge. tell us what you can give us in the kind of attack and the training and planning and execution that you found, that you found, that you do find to be excellent or whatever, education on this case. what did you learn from this thing? >> well, this is what these guys do every day. this isn't a rare instance. this is at a higher level, but they train their entire lives for a moment like this. and i think it's important to recognize. we will never know their names. these guys aren't going to get a parade in new york city or a ticker tape welcome. they'll go back to doing their job just like they have been every day since 9/11. they are an incredibly elite unit like nothing else in the world. over the next couple of days, the american population and the civilian population is going to really find out how incredibly impressive and expert they are. >> mark, let me go back. boy, i wish i could say that as well as you did and mean it with the background you've got, paul. let me ask you, mark, about this question of the role we know that was played by bin laden in his own demise. do we know if he used a human shield? did he grab a woman and jump behind her or anything like that? that was originally what we were getting from brennan. >> yeah. that doesn't appear to have been the case. we think there was one, at least, woman who ran toward the navy s.e.a.l.s was shot in the leg, but no one i have talked to privately has said that bin laden actually used a human shield. although one of the women did die being used as a human shield, but it wasn't by bin laden. >> let me ask but whether he resisted, how he might have without a firearm. do you know what the means of resistance was? >> no. we're still trying to learn more about that. that has been from when we talked to officials on sunday night, they said he resisted the assault but there was no more detail than that. and it did come out today that he was never armed, so we are trying to find out how he may have resisted. >> do we know if he knew that the service people, our special forces were working their way up to his top floor? do we know if he was aware that he was about to get caught? >> well, presumably, he was a highly intelligent person. and one would have assumed that with an intense firefight going on, and it's confirmed he was killed toward the end of the firefight. >> that's what i thought. >> this was half-hour of intense fighting. he probably would have presumed that they ultimately would have gotten to the room where he was, unless, you know, he would have thought that all of the invaders would have been killed before they got to him. >> would have certainly been optimistic thinking. here's white house press secretary jay carney on what happened when the navy s.e.a.l.s entered bin laden's compound. >> there was concern that bin laden would oppose the capture operation and indeed, he did resist. in the room with bin laden, a woman, bin laden's wife, rushed the u.s. assaulter and was shot in the leg but not killed. bin laden was then shot and killed. he was not armed. >> if he didn't have his hand on a gun, how did he resisting? >> the information i have, i think resistance doesn't require a firearm. >> did he have any weapon? >> he was not armed, is what i understand to be true. >> paul, i respect your service. what are you hearing about this assault? what are fellow service people telling you about it? they must be very proud of these fellas over there and what they did. >> overwhelmingly proud and impressed. and the military community has a tremendous reference for everybody in jsoc. think about the tactical proficiency and skill it would require to enter that room, shoot a woman in the leg and then take out bin laden with two shots while the president is watching, the whole world will later find out what is happening. and that's an incredible amount of discipline, dedication, a whole life built toward a moment like that. and to do it with such professionalism. and that's why we call them the silent professionals. they'll do this job and they are probably off on another mission or being debriefed already. folks are already back at work in afghanistan. i think it's a testament to the larger military. think about the folks back on patrol in afghanistan or back patrol in iraq. this is a real win for our military. it has been a rough couple of years. our community really needed it. it's a big boost to the morale to everyone and our families back home. >> that raises a point, mark. reporters always try to get the information. but people on the inside on a secret mission like that, have to keep that information. this ability to the part of the servicepeople involved here, anybody was moving paper with regard to the orders and all of the kind of provisioning of these guys and all of that effort, how do they keep all of that secret going all the way over to islamabad, to the suburbs there, all of that information in and out of the political people and the service people? >> yeah. it is an amazing secret that has been kept for months and months, as we reported today, dating back from last july, when they first laid eyes on this courier and ultimately tracked him to this compound. they started watching the compound 24 hours a day for months. and then we know that the operation has been in the works for at least a month. and for this never to leak out, obviously, those that knew about it were pretty good about keeping a secret. but as secrets go, this was about the most highly classified operation perhaps in american history. >> you know, i keep thinking on my side. i was at the white house correspondents' dinner saturday night, and there i am saying hello to my old pals. and of course bill daley, the chief of staff, talking social stuff and general politics. and all the time now, right, mark, these guys probably knew all of this because they were in the sit room, in that inner circle these guys, right? >> that's right. it's a poker face. and, you know, there's hundreds and hundreds of journalists in the room. and i guess everyone was lousy about extracting any information. >> well, we weren't very good spooks were we anyway? let's take a look at "the new york times." you're reporting today on intelligence officials and how they found bin laden. "prisoners in american custody told stories of a trusted courier. they began to intercept telephone calls and email messages between the man's family and anyone inside pakistan. from there, they got his full name last july. pakistan agents working for the cia spotted him driving his vehicle near pashawar. he drove to the sprawling compound near abbottabad. american intelligence operatives felt they were onto something big, perhaps even bin laden himself." and back to you, mark, the role of pakistan. the fact that the director of intelligence, leon panetta, has now openly said in an interview i believe for "60 minutes," actually for "time" magazine, it's already out there, said that pakistan was not trustworthy as an ally. had we told them that, we would have had problems with them telling the targets, ratting out bin laden. i mean, actually warning him. >> yeah. we've seen this for years. >> that's a hell of a statement, by the way. >> there is a deeply troubled relationship between the united states and pakistan and the sort of dysfunctional relationship the cia has with its counterpart in pakistan, the isi. there had been years of frustration where the u.s. had given intelligence to the pakistanis and there were suspicions that they tipped off al qaeda or the taliban or others. things are bad right now in terms of the relationship, but american officials publicly, as you just said, are being very blunt about all of this. now it should be said that the pakistani officials have vehemently denied that anyone in the government had any knowledge of bin laden's whereabouts all these many years. >> well, they would have had -- paul, you can get in here. they would have had the intelligence if we gave it to them, and that's the problem. if they didn't know, and here is the question, we now look at pakistan the way that michael corleone looked at fredo, his brother, not to be trusted. >> the intelligence has to be held very close and shared with only people that need to know. in that part of the world, you have to be really careful with the corruption and the rumor mill that happens out there. that will compromise a mission quickly. it makes sense to me. i have been on operations where you keep information very close and on a need-to-know basis, and i don't blame them. >> thank you for your service always, paul. thank you for coming on. and thank you, mark, as well. coming up, let's go to the politics. no doubt the killing of bin laden will be the defining moment of president obama's first term. how much of a bump in the polls will he get from it? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. 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"hardball" back after this. power, precision, cutting edge. i know that unity that we felt on 9/11 has frayed a little bit over the years. and i have no illusions about the difficulties and the debates that will have to be engaged in in the weeks and months to come. but i also know there have been several moments like this during the course of this year that have brought us together as an american family, whether it was the tragedy in tucson, or most recently, our unified response to the terrible storms that have taken place in the south. last night was one of those moments. >> wow. welcome back to "hardball." that was, of course, was president obama talking to a bipartisan dinner meeting of congressional leaders at the white house last night. early poll numbers show some big changes in attitudes. a "washington post" pew research center poll conducted monday finds a spike in the country's attitude about how things are going. roughly 1-3 now say they are satisfied. it was 1-4 in march. that's an uptick. the president's personal approval, however, has gone way up in this poll. he is up at plus-18 points now, and was at minus three last month. other polls out today show a smaller bump, see a 56% approval. while the country is positive on the handling of terrorism, his handling of afghanistan, still just 40% approve his handling of the economy. duh. it has something to do with reality. will killing osama bin laden prove to be a defining moment for president obama? howard fineman is the editorial director for "the huffington post" and msnbc analyst. and todd perdham is the national and todd perdham is the national editor -- do i have to ask what republicans -- secular cannonization. the guy would be on mt. rushmore if w. had done this. carving the stone tonight, right? >> no question. >> the spiking of the ball. >> just like what george w. did, you know, on the aircraft carrier. >> without even doing it. >> it wasn't really mission accomplished. this really was a mission accomplished. if it were they, the republicans, there would be fireworks everywhere. >> todd, do you want to venture a partisan assessment here? >> i think most responsible republicans were quite effusive of the praise of the president. dick cheney couldn't have been more gracious. >> but 80% of the republican party give credit to president w. and only 60% of republicans give it to president obama. and that is really screwy. >> as president kennedy said, there will always be some guy that didn't get the word. >> well said. here is more from "the washington post"/pew poll. 31% give president bush no credit. as far as who gets the biggest amount of credit, a great deal as the poll puts it, democrats overwhelmingly for obama, and independents are about 2-1 for obama, republicans almost 2-1 for bush. 6-10 republicans say president obama deserves some credit for bin laden's death. but 8-10 republicans say president bush deserves some of the credit. i think they probably believe reagan deserves most of the credit for everything. this is bizarro, isn't it? >> it is bizarro, but i think even though the numbers are at best equivocal for the president among democrats, they are stronger among independents. and i think overall this is a calling card for him in terms of the long burden that the democrats have had, and the democratic presidents have had, on the notion that they are either weak or inept on military affairs. >> how did they earn that rap? >> well, one thing that happened in the jimmy carter days, he tried a similarly dramatic rescue of the american hostages, and in many ways, it sealed jimmy carter's fate and reinforced the idea that the democrats going back to vietnam, to the george mcgovern campaign where he was against the war and so on, that the democrats were both wary of, inept about, and opposed to the use, the expert use of tough military actions. this is a case where president obama and his team were brave in the choices they made. they were surgical in what they did. and they succeeded to the utmost. and i think that's going to go a long way, especially when the republicans who are likely to run, and the dominant and prominent republican contenders, have no military experience. now we're past that time. nobody has any military experience anymore. but now ironically, it's barack obama who's got the commander in chief experience. john mccain isn't running again. and i think it's a big tipping point, in my view, a big tipping point between the parties that didn't exist before. >> todd? ike was restrained. he didn't use military force hardly at all. carter didn't use it. but there's a difference between restraint and pacifism, i guess. >> most of our lifetime it's been the reverse. but i think one of the things that president obama may have put to rest with this, there will be some people that never like him, but you really can't say he is not a man who has a certain amount of daring, because he did pick the hardest option. and, you know -- >> it also resonates what he did with the pirate that time on a smaller case. >> i think it resonates with the notion that we are not going to mess around. and the white house was quite successful in putting out those speeches from 2007 and 2008 in which at the time you'll recall people sort of mocked him. oh, yeah, if you saw bin laden you'd take him out. you shouldn't say that out loud because it will hurt our relationship with pakistan. >> by the way, he's put a lot more troops in afghanistan, ok? he didn't put as many as some of the conservatives wanted. stepped up the present attacks with the drones. and here are the differences between president bush and dick cheney almost literally pushing the 500 daisy cutter bombs down onto iraq and not getting what they were targeting. and the approximate the getting the purpose that he was targeting. >> there's a difference between being cold blooded and being a sadist. i think presidents had to be cold blooded. >> i think most people would agree with that. >> but all the debate about whether osama bin laden was defending himself, whether he had a weapon or didn't have a weapon, let's face it. based on what we are thinking, the president's order was to shoot and kill. >> todd, you said some people never get the message. liz cheney and bill crystal put out a statement in their capacity as leaders of the group keep america safe. here is part of the statement. no mention of president obama there. isn't this strange? let's watch. >> all i know is what i've seen in the newspaper at this point. but it wouldn't be surprised if, in fact, that program produced results that ultimately contributed to the success of this venture. >> the ministry of truth, in orwellian terms. what are we about here? the best evidence we've got from "the times," we're going to keep reporting this, maybe just arguments about what the nature of the thing was, but torture, waterboarding did not get us the names of the courier, did not get us to the compound. we're finding that out. what are you hearing? >> i think that's the clearest understanding to date. and to the degree that it did anything, it produced high ranking people who said they had never heard of the name of the courier which made our experts think he must be very important, and they were lying. as senator mccain said you do when you are tortured, just stop the torture. >> it's much less of a some dramatic measure where somebody breaks under the cascade of water than it is a lot of intelligence -- >> he's in abbottabad. >> yeah. he's in abbottabad. it's a lot of intelligence people painstakingly putting together thousands and thousands of little clues. these days, a lot of intelligence is about mass data mining. it's about millions of bits and pieces of information. it's about crowd sourcing. it's about all kinds of stuff that dick cheney doesn't know that much about. >> did you like the idea that it still came down to a call, that it was 60% to 80%? it wasn't 100%. you know, dna isn't 100%, right? >> your old friend, senator moynihan, the health debate in 1994, nothing is ever 100%. >> but this was 60% to 80%. >> the president had two choices, to either bomb that place into oblivion and have there be questions about who was really in there. so we went for the higher value thing and got rewarded beyond his expectation because they found such a trove of documents there, hard drives and disk drives and flash drives. you know, the things that we're going to get potentially out of that, besides the satisfaction of taking out justice on osama bin laden, are almost beyond calculation at this point. >> who did said that genius was the ability to take pains? was that d.h. lawrence? somebody like that? i think that's what it's about. like writing. both of you guys do great writings. how come you're a great writer? i'm careful. i work at it. >> my understanding is that the way the president operates as an administrator is that he sometimes drives people crazy. he pops his head into meetings all the time. and he is a detail guy. in this case, he was in all those meetings. you can say that sometimes he, you know, he is too much lost in the details or he sees too many complexities in. this case, we have trashed him a lot for being overly complex in his thinking sometimes. this is a case where his ability to deal with complex things really helped him evaluate it, seems all the pieces of this thing. >> do you think we have ever picked a president we think is not as smart as we are? do you think that the right will even go that far? they are looking at people like palin and bachman that they don't think is as smart as they are. do you think we'll ever pick somebody that people say, they are not as smart as me. i want them to be president. that seems to be their appeal. i don't know anything. i don't read anything. make me your president. that seems to be what they are saying. >> my parents spent a lot of money on college and tuition that i hope we won't. >> i think that the shopping is going to be different for now on. they'll look for somebody as smart as obama. you think? >> i'm not sure. >> thank you, howard fineman. todd purdham. i think of them when i'm here. president obama's poker face. this is a great story. we'll show you what we was saying to us and doing in public. there he is at the black tie at dinner the other night, while privately planning this amazing mission. you're watching "hardball," on msnbc. we used to bet who could get closest to the edge. took some crazy risks as a kid. but i was still over the edge with my cholesterol. anyone with high cholesterol may be at increased risk of heart attack. diet and exercise weren't enough for me. i stopped kidding myself. i've been eating healthier, exercising more, and now i'm also taking lipitor. if you've been kidding yourself about high cholesterol...stop. 80% of people who have had heart attacks have high cholesterol. lipitor is a cholesterol lowering medication, fda approved to reduce the risk of heart attack and stroke in patients who have heart disease or risk factors for heart disease. 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[ male announcer ] wells fargo. with you when you're ready to move. s it hit helps the lhe of companipanies like the she smallestt ofof startups.ups. th ththat lets yos your employeloy, pa and custcustomersvate and sharee so you can can unleash tsh the of your mor your peopleople. a lot of times, things are right underneath our feet, and all we need to do is change the way we're thinking about them. a couple decades ago, we didn't even realize just how much natural gas was trapped in rocks thousands of feet below us. technology has made it possible to safely unlock this cleanly burning natural gas. this deposits can provide us with fuel for a hundred years, providing energy security and economic growth all across this country. it just takes somebody having the idea, and that's where the discovery comes from. we're back. as the intelligence picture of where bin laden was grew clearer, president obama held five different meetings to provide options to capture or kill the terrorist leader. the method to get him by air or by ground forces was fiercely debated in the early sessions. but publicly, no drama obama put on his poker face. on the same day as one of those contentious national security council meetings in march, obama did a series of network interviews defending his decision to implement a no-fly zone over libya and addressing the greater unrest in the middle east. >> and there are going to be some tough things that happen in that region over the next several months and years potentially because there is a series of forces that have been unleashed, many of which i think over the long term will turn out positively. but it's going to be a bumpy ride. >> a month later, on april 27, the day before his fifth national security meeting, where final details of the mission were likely ironed out, the president released his long-form birth certificate, calling out donald trump and his like. >> we do not have time for this kind of silliness. we have got better stuff to do. i have got better stuff to do. >> yeah, better stuff to do like, i don't know, find and kill the most wanted terrorist on the planet. the following day, obama chaired his final top security session on the mission. and he also named cia director leon panetta to be his next secretary of defense, and general david petraeus to be the cia director. the president offered up some eerie foreshadowing when he praised petraeus. >> as a lifelong consumer of intelligence, he knows that intelligence must be timely, accurate, and acted upon quickly. >> that's for sure. that same night, president obama managed to crack a joke about those birthers at a democratic national committee fundraiser. >> my name is barack obama. i was born in hawaii. nobody checked my i.d. on the way in. >> well, he gave the final order for the operation on the morning of april 29th, toured the tornado damage in alabama later that day, and that evening, gave a commencement address at miami-dade college, and a vote september 11. >> when bombs fell on pearl harbor, when an iron curtain fell over europe, when the threat of nuclear war loomed just 90 miles from this city, when a brilliant september morning was darkened by terror, in none of those instances did we falter. we endured. we carried the dream forward. >> well, the raid was originally scheduled to take place on april 30, saturday, but weather delayed the operation by one day, allowing the president to try his hand at comedy at the white house correspondents' dinner. and as the hours closed in on the plot to take out bin laden, president obama took a shot at donald trump's decisionmaking ability on "the celebrity apprentice." pay close attention to the last line. >> you, mr. trump, recognize that the real problem was lack of leadership. and so ultimately, you didn't blame l'il john or meatloaf. you fired gary busey. and these are the kind of decisions that would keep me up at night. [ laughter ] >> wow. i think we knew what kept the president up that night. anyway, up next, what a story. up next, the death of osama bin laden may prove to be a defining moment for the 2012 republican field. their argument that president obama is weak on foreign policy lost its bite the other day, and they don't seem to have a candidate that can match up to be commander in chief like this one. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ [ male announcer ] an everyday moment can turn romantic anytime. and when it does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. ♪ cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day so you can be ready anytime the moment's right. ♪ tell your doctor about your medical condition and all medications, and ask if you're healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. 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[ male announcer ] ask your doctor if cialis for daily use is right for you. for a 30-tablet free trial offer, go to cialis.com. i'm paige hopkins. here is what is happening. cia chief leon panetta tells nbc news that heist that proof of death photo of osama bin laden will be released to public but it is ultimate lay white house decision. meanwhile, the fbi is warning that e-mails circulating right now alleming to have that photo attached may be carrying a dangerous computer virus. in missouri, the demolition of a levee eased the threat of flooding for a town but it has not helped matters downstream where officials are considering punching holes in more levees to try to divert more water. finally, britain's prince charles found time during a visit to the u.s. supreme court in washington to gracious belie accept congratulations on his son's recent up in wanuptials. now, let's take you back to "hardball." i'm going to love this segment. welcome back to "hardball." since september 11th, republicans have taken hold of national security as one of their signature issues. but over the past few months, the gop descended into a party that questions things like the president's birth certificate and his college grades. well, after the death of bin laden the other day, republicans get more serious. is this their defining moment as they prepare for 2012? jonathan martin writes for politico, is a great reporter on politics, especially, and michael smirconish is an msnbc political analyst and national syndicated radio host. and more to the point, you have been the guy chasing -- who is that guy in "les mis" who kept chasing the guy and couldn't stop? >> john valjean. >> you have not stopped. no, you were the guy that wouldn't stop chasing him. jovert. jovert. you have been pushing this issue, as all americans have their soul, but why have you been on the war path on this one issue? how much interviews have you had with the president? >> five. >> and in every one of them, you have talked about this. >> every one. >> and what have you gleaned from those interviews with the president? >> well, i'm so glad that you ask it that way, because the president has got to be given credit for having done exactly what he said he would do. if you go back to the spring of '07, when he started to say i will move on actionable intelligence in pakistan if i don't have confidence in the pakistanis doing so. and i then perpetuated that question and would ask him time and again, many people didn't want to believe him. you know, the republicans did not want to accept at face value. they wanted to promote this notion of him being an other, more like them, whatever that might mean, than like them. and in the end, chris, he put the hammer down exactly as he said he would do. >> you know, i want to get to jonathan. it seems to me that this president is, and i mean this positively, cold blooded. i think people or chief executives of this country have to be willing to use the firepower before them or they shouldn't take the job. if you're not willing to use our military power, if you're not willing to kill people when you have to, you shouldn't take that job. this president is not a wimp about using power. in fact, i dare say he is pretty cold blooded. he went after the pirates. he called for the contract. he called for the hit. he did it again here. >> chris, do you remember the speech he gave when he received the nobel peace prize? i think that was a very telling address when he said basically that he is, of course, a lover of peace, but as the leader of a country, he looks after america's interests. and there are times when you have to project american force. and, yes, use the weapons of war to protect american lives. so, i think, obviously, that's what he's done here. but this does i think provide a problem for republicans on the issue of this narrative. what you touched on, chris, the notion that he is somehow weak or, you know, unwilling to sort of use force. he doesn't like violence. he is sort of the faculty lounge guy who is unfamiliar with the u.s. military. he has a ready response for that now for the next year and a half. he can say, well, you can ask osama bin laden about how soft i am. you'll find him at the bottom of the arabian sea. >> yeah, i think he is the man that shot liberty valance now. here's the former rnc chair michael steele just yesterday calling on republican candidates to get tough when taking on the president. but he also pointed out the difficult position they find themselves in now. let's listen to michael steele. >> right now, the republican candidates for the nomination are not getting the traction they need to to go up against the president of the united states, an incumbent president of the united states, who is a formidable campaigner, who is a heck of a fundraiser, and who has the wind of the economy and now some international success in his sails. >> well, let me ask you, michael, you talk to people all the time. do you think they are going to drop the crazy stuff? is this bad news for trump? only time i'm going to mention him probably tonight. is it bad news for him and palin and bachman? the ones that do the sort of soupy sales number? are they finished? >> how in the world does trump shut down this presidential aspiration in the next three weeks? that's his timetable, without having egg on his face. the problem, chris, i think for the gop is that they have so narrowed the base, and all the crazy talk incites the base, but offends most of the rest of the country. so, are they going to continue to placate the base or try and grow the tent? i see no sign thus far they are ready to grow the tent. they are content to be insular, and that's a losing strategy at a general election. >> i just want to lindsey graham. he said he had a not-so-veiled shot at donald trump today. he was talking about trump. >> he was talking about trump. there was little doubt in my mind when i talked to him on the phone yesterday that's who he had in mind, even though he didn't use trump's name. look, i think michael makes a fair point, but it is may of 2011. so there's a long way to go here. a lot of republicans i talk to say, yes, this has been something of a silly season. but this is a long primary. it will clarify itself. the process will work itself out. we will get a serious mainstream candidate. >> okay. >> if the economy does not recover, that person will be formidable come the fall of 2012. >> well, the problem is we're watching the nfl replacement season right now. look who is going to be in this debate this week on another network. it is the replacement season. look at these guys. tim pawlenty, he's for real. ron paul will get out by the primary season. buddy roemer, party switcher, don't do too well in these kind of things. santorum is jumping in from pennsylvania. michael, this is the replacement season. this is sort of how jack warden and what's his name -- and gene -- gene hackman coaching this team. your thoughts? >> look, i'm a political junkie. and i don't think i know half of them myself. and you've got romney on the sideline. palin, i don't think she goes, but she's on the sideline for this. how could -- i don't think he wants a piece of this either. romney is the strongest candidate, i have always believed that, but i think he wants to stay out of as much of this primary skirmish as he can. >> quickly, john. 10 seconds. >> just real fast. i was going to say that's thursday. tomorrow, though, washington, d.c., mitch daniels in town giving a speech on education. there will be a lot of folks watching that looking for clues as to what he says and whether or not he is going to run. >> he's not going to run. he's not going to run. i'll save you time. he's not going to run. thank you both. human nature tells me he is not running. up next, the operation to kill osama bin laden was managed by a president whose confidence has always been his strong suit. what is it about president obama's upbringing that continues to shape his presidency? that's ahead. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. [ wind howling ] [ technician ] are you busy? management just sent over these new technical manuals. they need you to translate them into portuguese. by tomorrow. [ male announcer ] ducati knows it's better for xerox to manage their global publications. so they can focus on building amazing bikes. with xerox, you're ready for real business. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 and talk to chuck about ttd# 1-800-345-2550 rolling over that old 401k. president obama's going to new york on thursday, two days, going to ground zero to commemorate the killing of osama bin laden by u.s. forces and pay tribute to those who lost their lives on 9/11. ground zero has been a site of spontaneous celebrations this week since the news of bin laden's death broke sunday night. the president will also do an interview for "60 minutes" tomorrow which will air on sunday. we will be right back. mom! mom! mom! 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[ male announcer ] the power of a computer. the portability of a smartphone. at&t presents the motorola atrix™ 4g. the world's most powerful smartphone. at&t. rethink possible. ♪ [ male announcer ] doctors have been saying it forever. let's take a look. but they've never actually been able to do it like this. let's take a look. v-scan from ge healthcare. a pocket sized imaging device that will help change the way doctors see patients. that's better health for more people. when i was young, my family lived overseas. and i lived in indonesia for a few years. and my mother, she didn't have the money to send me where all the american kids went to school. but she thought it was important for me to keep up with an american education. so she decided to teach me extra lessons herself, monday through friday. but because she had to go to work, the only time she could do it was at 4:30 in the morning. now as you might imagine, i wasn't too happy about getting up that early. a lot of times, i would fall asleep right there at the kitchen table. but whenever i would complain, my mother would just give me one of those looks and she'd say, "this is no picnic for me either, buster." i wish we had video of that, those two at the table in the kitchen, 4:30 in the morning, mother and son to be president. that is a story that president obama often told about his mother as he campaigned for president. and for most of us, it's about the only story we know about him. now as we learn more about his courage and poise, president obama showed in going after bin laden, we're going to look at . jenny scott's new book is called "a singular woman", the untold story of barack obama's mother. jenny, thank you so much for writing this book. i love the picture. i love the looks of this young woman. this young american woman. she's so young. and she had a baby with an african guy. that's always interesting. the women who step out, you know, go across racial lines. go across culture lines and make a big decision. there he is looking great. let me ask you, as you did this book, what were you thinking of these biters, these whackos out there questioning if she actually existed the way we're watching her. actually had american mother having an american kid. you knew it all as texturized reality. the absolute wall to wall truth of it and you're listening to these jokersers. what was your reaction to all that? >> it was a little baffling, chris. i started working on this during the campaign. the issue kind of came up then, but it receded. i wasn't a preoccupation of mine. i spent two and a half years, talked to close to 200 people. not a single person ever mentioned any knowledge or any spent any time in kenya around the time of the birth of her son. i felt pretty comfortable about that. when it resurfaced, a la donald trump, i would say, i was stunned. i thought it was pretty much a settled issue. when it continued i went back and reconferred all the evidence and came to the conclusion that you and everyone else that it was a classic conspiracy theory. and all evidence to the cob trar that you would think would convince people otherwise was viewed as further evidence of a conspiracy. >> for the millioneth time, the only way you had to engage in a conspiracy is he intended to be president some day. this kid barack obama with an african father that was an amazing plan himself. he didn't have to do it. woodsworth is right, we are who we are very young. when you meet somebody you went to high school with, they're very much like themselves. when you looked at his birth growing up with that mom and that dad briefly, what was there that came out later? >> well, he had a very unconventional mother. that's really the story that i was looking at. what was her life like? this was a person, you know, who kind of broke the rules over and over again. conceived a child with an african man at a time when nearly half the state ms the country had laws against interracial marriage. went off to indonesia a couple years after a huge political and social upheaval in which hundreds of thousands of people were killed. was a single, working mother at a time when very few people were doing that in professions, you know, anthropology and international development in which men had traditionally dominated. he had a very unusual parenting experience. i think -- in answer to your question, one of the interesting things that i stumbled upon in indonesia where i went several times during the course of working on this, was the notion that there was something about javanese from the president. having gone to school at a critical time in his development between the ages of 6 and 10 in a culture that inculcates self-control in an extraordinary way that he was marked by that. there were people there who said he learned his cool in indonesia during that period. it's inculcated in children through a culture of teasing and the notion that you would display emotion is viewed as a loss of self-control. >> so you see him today in that way? you see the president as he we haifs and conducts dark arts of going after a bad guy like we did, you see that as a cool, a zen like behavior? >> i do see a cool in him. most americans find it baffling. >> i do. >> he himself has said this is a product of probably several things. one is i nate temp remit. >> i'm not at all like president obama. i look up to him. i'm sure everybody -- that mother looks so interesting and so engaging. i hope that book sells well "a singular woman." about how this mother raised the president. thank you so much. >> thank you, chris. when we return, the difference between president obama's reaction to the killing of osama bin laden and what the reaction would have been like with the reaction of a republican president. hey, pete. yeah, it's me, big brother. put the remote down and listen. 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[ male announcer ] if you cannot afford your medication, call 1-877-niaspan. niaspan is not for everyone, like people with stomach ulcers, liver, or serious bleeding problems. severe liver damage can occur when switching to niaspan from immediate-release niacin. blood tests are needed to check for liver problems. tell your doctor if you have muscle pain or weakness; this could be a sign of serious side effects; this risk can increase with statin use. tell your doctor about alcohol use, if you've ever had gout, or are diabetic and experience increases in blood sugar. flushing, a common side effect, is warmth, redness, itching, or tingling of the skin. ask your doctor about niaspan. fight back. fight plaque. niaspan. ♪ ♪ gonna use my, my, my, imagination. ♪ fight back. fight plaque. the new blackberry playbook. ♪ cos i'm gonna make you see ♪ there's nobody else here, no one like me. ♪ small enough to take anywhere. powerful enough to take you everywhere. ♪ i'm special ♪ so special let me finish tonight with a timely thought for everyone, but especially for those on the progressive side of the american debate. imagine now, take your time, concentrate your mind. now consider if it was a republican president who had captured osama bin laden. suppose george w. bush or john mccain had done what's just been done, capturing this country's greatest enemy. do you think? do you think there might have been some element of bragging? you can just freaking imagine it. that president would have been placed up on a pedestal so high you'd have to take a space shuttle to reach him. he'd be up there with regan. they'd be calling for him to get the congressional medal of honor. it's the difference in the two parties-a man of the right would be patriot of the century. president obama for doing what they only dream of doing gets a week off from having to show his driver's license. a week off from trump. and the associated gentlemanicals also out there barking along the president's trail. i think the sister of that 9/11 victim we had on last night said it well when she said how good it was that the killer of all our american friends ten years ago ending those days knowing that the friends of those americans had come to get him. americans don't give up. we don't let all killers get away. that was something wonderfully american sunday, right out of our culture, our myth, our spirit. the president and his people didn't strut about it. that's what makes them different. then again, the best cowboy heroes, the genuine law men, the good guys of the old west from gary cooper to matt di lon, were men of few words. that's "hardball" for now. that's for being with