Transcripts For MSNBC Deadline White House 20240708

Legal basis for directing National Security agencies to take such an extreme action. As we reported on this broadcast yesterday the New York Times lays out the multipronged effort by trump and his allies to get just one federal agency to bite and join the crusade to overturn the result by seizing machines. Trump reportedly tried to get doj to seize the machines and then rejected by ag bill barr so then a plan for the Defense Department to do it. Only to get pushback from white House Counsel and Lo And Behold his own lawyer Rudy Giuliani. So then giuliani was asked if he could look into whether dhs could seize the machines. Giuliani said, sure. He tried but then he too was rebuffed by secretary Ken Cuccinelli and now another attempt by trump to get an official to agree to the plan. The New York Times Reporting This, quote, Cuccinelli Who told giuliani that the Homeland Security department didnt have the authority to impound the machines later encountered trump at a meeting on a different topic and trump raised with him in passing the idea of the Department Seizing The Machines and cuccinelli said theres no Legal Authority to do so. And all of it the whole plan was of course pinned on the hope that a trump official would come through with a bombshell. Phil waldron, A Retired Army Colonel whos an idea of flynn and powell revealed in a podcast that the gambit initially hinged on a report of foreign interference in the election and Jon Ratcliffe was bound to present to lawmakers by december 18, 2020. If ratcliffe pointed a finger at china accusing them of manipulating the votes mr. Waldron said in the interview trump wouchk the rights to invoke powers for a president in times of national emergency. That wasnt not released until march of 2021. The first finding in that report reads quote we have no indication that any foreign actor attempted to alter any technical aspect of the Voting Process in the 2020 election including volt every registration, casting ballots, vote tabulation or reporting results. The Committee Investigating is where we start. Luke broadwater is back. Carol lennox is here. And Michael Steele is here, former rnc chairman. Luke, i want to start with you and the reporting and ask you to piece together the significance of What Ratcliffe offered waldron and how trump sought to seize that to operationalize the seizure by the National Security agencies. Yeah, sure. Thank you. As the allies of donald trump and donald trump himself are trying to overturn the 2020 election, they need to have a veneer of legality to the efforts and cant just come in and seize Voting Machines for no reason. Cant demand mike pence throw out legitimate votes and accept trump electors for no reason so they need a veneer of a reason. And what phil waldron down in texas comes up with an idea that it is chinas manipulation of the american Voting System that they will belief. So he believes that ratcliffe will put forward a report that finds this. The problem is, one, ratcliffe doesnt put forth a report before january 6 and when he does it finds no such thing. China wasnt didnt seize control of machines. Didnt take the actions that trump allies believed they would take and though its because not shot down in the mind of waldron and trump and others they continue on to act like its real and can take the extreme measures to try to keep donald trump in power including exploring whether any one of three different federal agencies willing to seize Voting Machines in six states so yes. Really extreme stuff and everything we learn about it each day makes the plot look even more threatening to democracy. Michael, whats so extraordinary about the two pieces of rorting this week that luke is bilined on is theyre trump directed plots and only trump. There is no other through line. Well explain. Ill ask luke to explain to folks who waldron is. Plugs in to flynn through the dia and an agency they both served i believe in the Obama Administration but the only through line through all the cranks, hasbeens, flynn wasnt just someone that confessed to the lies he told to the fbi. He who Chris Christie warned donald trump not to bring into the west wing in 2016. He was so bad that Chris Christie said dont let him near the oval. Talk about what were learning about what trump sought to do and the people he sought to do it with after losing. Just hats off to luke and his reporting and coverage here because it is a gnarly story to unravel and takes the dogged work to Connect The Dots in a way that stands the scrutiny from those on the right that will say the New York Times and the washington post. It is some, you think, left wing reporter. The facts are the facts. Heres the rub to the point which i think people fundamentally need to understand because you every beginning to see it unfold. Trump controls all of this. Theres two elements of the relationship. One, those that control and those that want to be controlled or allow it to happen. Mike flynns of the world and others want to be in the orkt. They agree with this ideology of authoritarianism. And trump is the avatar of that. Hes the one who they see as the best available to control that scenario. Trump wants to control that scenario. Nothing happens in his gambit in his orbit until he wants it to happen. This is not confusing nor unclear. Donald trump has his finger on the pulse of everything. If hes displayed an idea to overturn the results of the 2020 election hell surround himself with the individuals to help get that done and hell rely on the individuals to fulfill that particular mission. Whether that means taking someone out of a job and putting someone else in that job even though your administrations done and lost the election thats what youre going to do and the narrative is going to be exposed here how much of this was directed not just kind of an on the fly oh gee what do you think we should do but planned out and thought through and directed and not just by the minions but the trumps finger on that particular lever to achieve that outcome and i dont think we can fool ourselves any longer into believing that that thing we see in front of us isnt the thing we see. Our president of the United States orchestrated the results of an election in which he had lost to further the ambition to seize and hold on to power. Thats it. Call the thing what it is, america, and then appreciate and understand the stories that luke and others put in front of us. This is facts based on documents. The people are so brazen they talked about it. They wrote it in emails because they believed that they would be is successful and even if they werent they wouldnt be touched. Thats it. Carol, one of the first places i read about this in Black And White was the earliest excerpts that leaked from your book. I remember saying these people were worse than we thought. If you could pull ratcliffe into the narrative you stitched together. Trump sought to corrupt every National Security agency and if you look at the way that waldron thought of as a mike flynn mini me he sought to take a ratcliffe assessment of the china to use it as a rationale. Talk about that. You cant come up with a Strong Enough cliche or grasping at straws. The president was grasping at every wisp of a possibility of how to overturn the election and began in a sense in the day after the election. And he essentially was telling everyone that didnt agree with him he could find everyday it was rigged and tuned him out and tuned in Michael Flynn and tuned in people like rudy and Sidney Powell and pressure on ratcliffe and the people below him in the Intelligence Agency to try to say that russia wasnt interfering until election back to summer. That russia wuptd trying to do anything and it was china. President trump had his fingers heavy on the scales pushing that Intelligence Agency to give him bad intel to use to justify. The importance of this moment when in december about the effort to claim the election had been rigged and machines could be seized. December 2nd is the first time Michael Flynn says in a tweet the president might want to rerun the election because it was rigged and December 17th then givers an interview to news max to again say marshal law should be declared. Set aside the constitution because the election was rigged. December 18th the president meets with Michael Flynn in a threehour meet jeff gordon the white House Counsel on the line and talking about the president s new favorite idea. Rerun the election. Whats funny and so funny about this is remember the theories ginned up of a veneer to make the claim, powell said, rigged machines from venezuela affected the election jruedy said a day later dead people voted and the names used in swing states and then the next great idea is china interfered in the election. Anything that could be plausible was used and id stress one more thing. Imagine usually we say again another cliche third times a charm. Every time the president tried to push the three National Security agencies he lost. Imagine what would have happened if somebody was more obedient at d. O. D. Homeland security or the department of justice. Yeah. Thats what sort of rings through ominously, luke, in the reporting. I want to do two things. Read from the reporting and then talk about phil waldron. The basis for the draft order sent to trump. These allegations about dominion Voting Systems were the centerpiece for four lawsuits that ms. Powell filed in late november and December 2020 seeking to overturn results of the election. The suit accompanied by affidavits of mr. Ramsland made the baseless claim that chinese officials and Shell Companies and soros had conspired to hack into the machines and what was described as a globalist socialist plot to steel the election. Whats amazing is how much running room the bald faced lies and dominion is suing several conservative news outlets for the lies and unfounded and some of the most fringey News Agencies are correcting the record and saying that. Billions of dollars of lawsuits faced by the individuals. And outlets. But the reason we are introducing to viewers names like phil waldron and mr. Ramsland is because they were the supplicants. Explain. Yes. Any normal white house or probably any normal Business Organization in the country, these types of ideas would have been not even retained but dismissed quickly. That wasnt the case in the trump white house. After losing the election donald trump became more and more desperate for anybody, anywhere to tell him that he won and come up with a theory to supplement that belief. It was so bad that even people like mack meadows and eventually Rudy Giuliani also trying to help trump overturn the election thought that the people were a bridge too so and so far in fact mark meadows didnt want powell in the white house and after a young aide allowed mike flynn, Sidney Powell and others to come in that friday evening, had waved them in, mark meadows staff evoked that privilege and people that wanted trump to stay president thought were too far out there. Phil waldron is the specialized in psychological operations according to the oden mission. Did he believe these things to put forward or use them as some sort of Information Warfare to try to disrupt the Election System to keep trump in power . He obviously knew general flynn and they were connected with powell and that got its way up to trump. Carol, we went back and looked at sol of your reporting around december 18 meeting from i alone can fix it. Pat cipollone listened as powell claimed a massive and vague conspiracy to flip votes for biden. Cipollone warned this foursome the president had no legal grounds to see his machines. Flynn disagreed saying the president brought authority. They cursed and hurled insults at one another. The flynnpowellbyrne Team Told Trump that his other advisers were not loyal enough. He called them quitters. Can you imagine this scenario where cipollone isnt asked to or hasnt spoken to the 1 6 committee . I can imagine a reason that he hasnt, by the way. One of them is that he owes a duty of privilege to donald trump as the white House Counsel why not to donald trump the person but to the office of the president. And so i can imagine a world in which a lot of his records are being reviewed. I can imagine a world in which people who spoke with him or sat next to his shoulder when he was talking with donald trump, especially at that December 18th meeting. I can imagine they have gotten an eyeful of what Pat Cipollone saw. I wouldnt put myself down as speculating or claiming to know that thats the case. I can see a lot of barriers to that happening this quickly and more for white house Chief Of Staff mark meadows. I want to play some of phil waldron in his own words for you, michael. January 26, 2021, talking about how he started this kennard of fraud and had the most reseptemberive audience. The American People before november 3rd had no idea of this information. And even we have been sounding the alarm bells since august and september and october to dhs, to the house. There were several congressmen who got it. Gohmert here in texas. He got it right away. Hes willing to talk to the president about it. Unfortunately not until after the election. So the problem with the waldrongohmerttrump axis of i dont know what to call it disinformation is you know its bs because bill barr who acknowledged to investigate voter fraud couldnt find any before, during or after the election. The only person who called on the senators to commit voter fraud is donald trump. Chris krebs, lifelong republican, was fired for declaring that what waldron alleged back in august, september and october didnt happen. There was no interference. It was quote the most secure election in american history. I guess it isnt remarkable that trumps attention turned to the liars and not the Truth Tellers but does suggestion the plot started to be laid it would appear in august. I would take you one better. That ground became fertile in april and may when President Trump indicated that, you know, if i dont win this election this november its because of fraud. This was you go back and listen to what the president was saying at the rallies, the engagement with reporters around this issue of the election. Trump made it clear. Internal polling showed a great vulnerability for the president on covid. That as this process began to unfold these narratives around the health and safety of the nation began to take its grip on the families and communities across the nation where people were getting sick and dying, their attitudes were changing and reflected in the internal conversations inside the white house and you can begin to track where the president s thinking evolved. It was not a recognition of his failure as president to keep safe the American People, but rather, a way to address that failure and still win the day, win the argument. It began long before the fall to be Critical Mass for the president to lay out a narrative that would rally his troops to the polls and then afterwards and then also begin to utilize the mechanisms and controls of government on the way. And a test case of that were the summer riots and the president s response to that lafayette, for example, manipulated the joint chief into not only marching with him but donning the uniform to walk across lafayette park. So it showed the early manipulation of the agencies long before the throws of the aftermath of the to 20 election. Yeah. Shows cant read the constitution and can read a poll. It is just amazing. Thank you for your reporting on this chapter. Michael sticks around. President biden sending thousands more troops right up to the doorstep of Vladimir Putin sending a reassuring message to nato allies as aggression picks up. The latest reaction to that. Senate republicans have opinions about a Supreme Court nominee yet to be named only because the president is promising to put one black woman on the court when there have been zero before her. The expresident calls the insurrectionists patriots that deserve to be pardoned. A Committee Member said its Witness Tampering. All those stories after a quick break. Stay with us. A quick eabrk. Stay with us every day. Ders of myc i worried about my hep c. But in only 8 weeks with mavyret i was cured. Mavyret is the only 8week cure for all types of hep c. Before starting mavyret your doctor will test if youve had hepatitis b which may flare up and cause serious Liver Problems during and after treatment. Tell your doctor if youve had hepatitis b, a liver or kidney transplant, other Liver Problems, hiv1,or other medical conditions, and all medicines you take. Dont take mavyret with atazanavir or rifampin, or if youve had certain Liver Problems. 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All on the most reliable nationwide network. With no Line Activation Fees or term contracts. Saving you up to 500 a year. And its only available to comcast Business Internet customers. So boost your bottom line by switching today. Comcast business. Powering possibilities. ™ today President Biden approved sending 3,000 troops to Eastern Europe amid the ongoing Russian Military buildup along the border of your crane. These troops are on top of the 8500 put on alert last week. Press secretary john kirby said they had no plan to go into ukraine and a temporary move. Listen. I want to be very clear about something. These are not permanent moves. They are moves designed to respond to the current security environment. Its important that we send a strong signal to mr. Putin and frankly to the world that nato matters why the movements are signals to the world that we stand ready to reassure the allies and deter and defend against any aggression. Joining our coverage political strategist matt dowd who we are happy to announce today joins msnbc as a political contributor and analyst. Michael steele is still with us and first hearing from Pentagon Correspondent courtney kube. Tell me about the moves and about kirbys comments there. So the announcement today was 3,000 troops. 2,000 from here in the u. S. From fort bragg moving into poland and then into germany and then another 1,000 troops forward in germany moving into romania. This entire deployment, this is all a unilateral move President Biden made the decision to deploy these troops as a way to hopefully deter Vladimir Putin from actually invading ukraine. I keep saying what i heard ambassador mcfall said earlier today calling it coercive diplomacy. The hope is that with moves like this showing a unified nato very specifically in that neighborhood of ukraine that hopefully Vladimir Putin will decide not to invade that country. The reality is, though, hearing from john kirby is that every single day putin sends in more troops, more capabilities, more logistical support. Every day that are more prepared to invade ukraine and the concern among officials is they could do so quickly and the decision to send the troops forward is not just for deterrent and the reality is also if, in fact, there is a decision to invade ukraine by russia and the u. S. Needs to conduct an evacuation or needed for a humanitarian assistance in the region to see the troops the 82nd pulled in for that response. Also some reporting that even short of an invasion there are and could be more Cyber Attacks from russia and putin. Talk about how the u. S. Is trying to protect and defend on that front. Thats right. So theres a big concern that would way to kick off is a Cyber Campaign and most likely the officials think it is focused in ukraine to see the lights turning off in ukraine and increasingly clear that it was russia in the cyber world and also a real concern that nato allies, the United States and other, vocal in denouncing the russian buildup that those countries may also be on the receiving end on a cyber attack and may come in the early stages of an invasion and incursion as a way to take everyones attention from whats going on in ukraine to focus on whats happening domestically and something that officials are concerned about and they still the paramount thing is the very real concern about the newer capabilities that putin has along the border and specifically more and more about this buildup in belarus. They have very advanced air Defense System and can own the air space over ukraine with the capabilities there now. I want to play for you something that congressman cheryl said about ukraines readiness. I think putin underestimated the will of the ukrainian people. This is not 2014. These are people that understand what freedom is. They can look in crimea. They can look where russias occupying the territory and seem that tweet against Vladimir Putin are in jail. They know what theyre fighting for and ready to do so. Whats amplifying the view from ukraine part of the public diplomacy, deterrence campaign at this point . One reason to hear a different message from ukraine than here is that ukraine particularly president zelensky needs to focus on the economy not falling apart and not talking about this as an imminent foregone conclusion as some u. S. Officials are here but i hear a similar sentiment that we heard from Congresswoman Cheryl right there which is ukrainian citizens they have been under threat and under attack from russia for years and have the very strong will to fight back and to push back. The Ukrainian Military is trained for the last eight years or so. They have a lot of weapons. Many provided by western and Nato Alliance members. They have the ability to push back on a lot of an invasion but they are largely outmanned and outgunned by the Russian Military and a big part is again these capabilities that russia is building up along the borders. They have missiles to fire in. They can own the air space in ukraine. If theres a decision for a fullon invasion in Ukraine Russia can do a lot of damage to ukraine and to their military. What that wont stop is in the ensuing days is a resistance front and what we hear more and more about particularly from the people in touch with the ukrainian presidency. I want thoughts on this administration and all only this almost transparent aggressiveness conveying the moves, military, diplomatic and the sort of degree of public engagement. How close of an attention do you think the public is paying, matt . Its an i think fascinating view is into how political topsyturvy our current politics are in america. You would think this is a moment to stand up to russia and on behalf of an ally that it would unite the country. The republicans traditionally been strong against russia, always a question at times about the democrats and now the democrats are strong against russia and the republicans are like fading on this. Many of them are. I saw senator hawley say why would we consider inviting ukraine in nato . Tucker carlson is basically asked what do we have to do with ukraine . I think part of the problem the president is having is the conflict after the last 20plus years and having experiencing pulling out of afghanistan and the courage after 20 years in the midst of that this country is not in any place where they want any sort of military conflict. So the president is trying to be transparent. I think the president duptd want a conflict with russia in this and so what are all the steps to do . He is laying them out openly and that is great as i said. Heres the steps i am taking and i think the president is fully aware that the country he is governing America Today is exhausted by war. Michael, a quick last word. Yeah. I agree with matt on that but heres still the rub. So what do you do, mr. President , when the troops roll across that border . What do you do if and when putin calls the bluff . That is the real challenge. And then how do you rally a nation in defense of a country thats so far away . That narrative is what the josh hawleys now play on. Lets be clear. If this were a republican president in the situation they would be rallying the flags in a very different way and create consternation if that president Wandy Rodriguez trump between the republicans and the administration because they dont want to seem like they support putin. But thats not their problem so its easy to sit in the cheap seats and certainly tucker Call Me Crazy carlson to throw the stuff out there and let it pop and boom and blow up around the Biden Administration and seeing that at home which feeds the narrative that matt laid out. The president has to answer the question, what do you do when the tanks roll . I dont know if the American People have been told that step yet. Yeah. Courtney, thank you so much. A sitting republican member of the Judiciary Committee said he is worried that the black woman the president picks for the Supreme Court wont know a law boom from a j. Crew catalog. That was a quote from a u. S. Senator. Well explain. A u. S. Senator. 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The gop is already stepping all over one another on how to attack this yet to be named nominee. Senate republicans are divided on whether its allout war to be waged against President Bidens promise to pick a black woman for the road. Hawley and wicker are openly hand wringing about President Bidens quote criteria. Senator kennedy worried about j. Crew catalogs and woke agendas and ted cruz continuing to say that nominating the first black woman would be quote casually racist. That crowd promising not a single republican vote and then another group wondering if they avoid a peril of a fight they wont win. Its possible its all posturing considering the picks received republican votes and won bipartisan support. Three senators backed judge Brown Jackson last year. 14 republicans voted for District Judge wright in 2016 and 15 for federal Circuit Court judge cunningham last july. So that makes, you know, the no republican support thing hypocritical. Not that that stops them. What do you think . Okay. So im trying to handle this delicately. Dont be delicate. Thats so boring. This one struck a nerve with me because as i responded to a tweet directly to the senator so this is what you think of these highly qualified black women that the best to bring is a j. Crew catalog . I dont understand the attack. Well, first off, the reality of it is i want to flip the script a little bit. I dont understand why the democrats give a damn what the republicans do on this nomination. I dont know why theyre wringing they should hands trying to find a bipartisan vote. If the republicans want to vote for her, great. Show up. This is the day and cast the vote. Let the president put forward his nominee. Let the republicans visit with the nominee but i would not waste my trial trying to convince the likes of individuals who cannot in good conscience look at the record of the individuals some of whom they already voted for and say we applaud for the president putting forward this list of women and i look forward to talking to them. Why are we wasting time to get republicans reason board . Why do we care what ted cruz says on anything . Dont let me get started on josh hawley. You are as dumb as a bag of rocks. Stop playing a game with these people and understand what the political moment is as well as the historic moment, democrats. And play to your strengths. You have got in front of you a group of women who have survivored crap to get to that point. Try being a black woman in law school, working through a law firm to be a partner let alone an associate. Go through the process and understand what they have achieved and can we step back and go, damn, wonderful, amazing . Now the competition is who do we put on the court . So help move the country off of stupid where the republicans want you to be to defend something you know is just crazy nonsense. J. Crew . Really, senator kennedy . Thats the best you could say . I wont shame on you. Its so Beyond The Pale of ignorance and the fact that you think that thats cute. Thats southern charm. You know, dude . Seriously. Stop it. Stop it. So i just think, president , play your card. Have your interviews. Put forward the best qualified black women you have on the list and let the guys choke on it why they will go in history as the senator that voted against a black female stunningly amazingly smart woman to the Supreme Court. Matt dowd . Its hard to follow that which i completely agree with. Indeed. I would add why this is important. The democrats should say this is what we will do. The president will appoint a well qualified and probably more so than the justices on the court. I think it tells you about where the Republican Party is. Normally if people make the racially tinged the things they dont say them out loud. They do it in the back ground. They sort of like yeah, yeah, yeah well take a look at her and see what she is like and do the stuff in the background. The idea that think that saying the things out loud. I dont think josh hawley is dumb as a box of rocks. I think he is smart and i think he is completely out of step with where america is. Thats what all four of the people you showed and the four white republican senators you showed, the idea that they can say these things out loud and not only not get castigated by the party but celebrated by the elements of the base i think is why were in this troubling moment that we are in and the other thing they constantly quote why is joe biden using quotas . Susan collins said i dont think he should have said it this way. To appoint an African American woman to the Supreme Court it is for the only reason of a quo that. That is when you pause and think about it for a minute theyre basically saying the only way an African American woman can get on the Supreme Court is if its a political deal. Ill give you a stat to talk about where the Supreme Court is. We have had 115 justices since 1789. 115. 108 have been white men. 108 out of 115 if you want the talk about where we need to fix this problem in this, its not like talking about whats the composure. Its what have we been dealing for for 140 years where 92 of them have been white men. Michaels right, but its an incredible insight that you can say these racist things out loud and not only not get castigated, youre celebrated by part of the base of the party. It happens at the same time the u. S. Supreme court enjoys the lowest public Approval Ratings in its history. Matt and michael are sticking around. Congressman kingsing erpkingsinw plan. 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This is the only way it happens is this coalition that elected joe biden to hang together democrats, independents, and people who want to continue to live in a democracy who voted for republicans in the past. Yeah, first i wanted to say quickly, so glad and excited to be part of the msnbc family. So are we. We are so happy. Im looking forward to going around as part of this to expose some of the threats to our democracy where people are standing up like adam and where people are under threat. I think its the most important issue of this election and probably our generation. And this, i agree completely with you, nicolle. The only way is to have a coalition and put behind the ideology and policy differences and have a movement that represents autocracy. The part i have doubts about is he wants to bring those people into the Republican Party and help the republican candidates succeed that are more aligned with democracy than autocracy in this. I have my doubts because of what is in the Republican Party today, whether that can be successful, but god bless him for everything hes doing and saying. I just think its going to be very hard to drip that in the Republican Party as they exist today. Matt, it is such a personal pleasure to get to say that youre here. That youre part of the msnbc family. To be reunited again. Michael steel and matthew and i were all at one time rowing in the same direction is another analogy, in republican politics in a totally different era. Feels like a different planet. On behalf of all of us, welcome. Matt and michael, thank you so much for your contributions today. Next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. E house starts after a quick break. Break. Dont go anywhere. But we did agree this rug was perfect. Okay. Stop being weird. Mom and daughter agreeing on something. Wayfair works miracles ooh check this one out. This chair is so comfortable. 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[whistle blows] [horn honks] theyre here. Hit the field. Warm up. You brought all these players in your buick. Yup. Thats so you. It is. Theres a buick that fits your life. Because at the heart of every buick suv is you. These are difficult times and any suggestion that people who broke into this capitol, injured Law Enforcement, stopped the orderly progress of what we do as members warrants everyone being pardoned is undemocratic. 165 have pleaded guilty to criminal behavior. My view is i would not be in favor of shortening any of the sentences for any of the people who pleaded guilty to crimes. Hi, again, everyone. Its 5 00 in new york. How bad were Donald Trumps comments this weekend, that he would pardon all of the people charged in the capitol insurrection . They were so bad that we heard the same reaction to the comments from the democratic chairman of the 1 6 select committee and the republican leader in the u. S. Senate. Even trumps bestie said pardons for the insurrections inappropriate, so trump fired back saying, he doesnt know what hes talking about. But back to the problem of those pardons. Issuing them to the hundreds who attacked our democracy, ravaged the capitol, brutalized Law Enforcement officers and called for the death of the american Vice President by hanging is definitely inappropriate and undemocratic. And has been said, but its also potentially criminal. Heres 1 6 Committee Member, pete aguilar, earlier today. Is trump tampering with witnesses when hes talking about pardons, dangling them in front of 1 6 defendants . Absolutely and i think the question is for my colleagues on the other side. Where are they . Do they support this . When is enough enough when a mob is chanting hang mike pence, it wasnt enough. When the former president asked Brad Raffensperger to find him votes, it wasnt enough. Now hes dangling pardons if he gets back in office for individuals. Will that be enough or will there be collective amnesia . I just dont know where the floor is these days on that side of the aisle. There isnt one. Republicans exhibiting quite a high tolerance for the expresident s connect. In addition to floating pardons, trump admitted the whole time he just wanted the Vice President to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Trump called for quote, the biggest protest weve ever had in places where he is being investigated personally and criminally. And Reporting This week has exposed his direct involvement in attempts to seize Voting Machines after the election. All of these shows that that of trumps desperation and the damage he has brought on this country and its founding principles. From the New York Times in some new analysis, quote, historians say the episodes in trumps new comments acknowledging his determination to stay in power and his effective embrace of the rioters at the capitol who he said must be treated fairly have merely underscored the fragility of the nations democratic system. Jeffrey angle, director of the center for president ial history at smu said voters were understandably desensitized, the not numb, after year in which trump sought to undermine faith in the electoral process. Quote, i actually think the American People is dramatically underplaying how significant and dangerous this is, he said. Because we cannot process the basic truth of what we are learning about trumps efforts. Which is weve never had a president before who fundamentally placed his own interests above the nations. What to do about an expresident who still wields political power but places himself ahead of the country he once led. John heilemann is back. Executive editor of the recount. Also joining us, senior columnist for the boston globe and Jason Johnson is back, politics and Journalism Professor at morgan state university. All three msnbc contributors. Hi there, John Heilemann. What do you make, its only wednesday. Feels like dog years, right . Seven days have been had each one of the news cycles weve already lived through. But what do you make of the newly sort of corroborated and confirmed picture of not just trumps hands on the effort to seize Voting Machines, but his direction of those plots at dod, dhs, and doj . Hi, nicolle. Its not just its only wednesday. Its only, what is it, february 2nd . Yeah. Man. Me, too. Its early in the year and weve had enough traitorous activity revealed over the last couple of days to last a lifetime, let alone a year. Theres a lot of ways to parcel of this and you and i, i feel like ive talked endlessly about this. And ill make somebody laugh. I try to say what i think is true and also try not to be totally hyperbolic. I dont think ive used the word, treason before about donald trump. Someone will figure out if i have at some point in the course of his presidency. Now many people would say should have a long time ago. I just dont really understand how the totality of the picture we now have doesnt amount to Textbook Definitions of what treason is. I mean, i think the picture in some sense, has been clear for a long time, but the extent of the knowledge, the foreknowledge, the direction, the systematic nature of what donald trump tried to do, in the Constitution Talks about war against these United States adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Most people understand it is the attempt to overthrow a legitimate government. It is true, when january 6th happened, he was still president of the United States and yet tried to overthrow a legitimate democratic process that the incoming president whos been validated as the legal next occupant of the oval office. Its the equivalent of that. If you think about what he did and then what hes been saying about it and the clear intent, its not enough to really talk about how hes aided an abetted an insurrectionist and incited a riot. Its the case that he attempted to commit treason. Against the United States last year. A year and a half ago, a year ago. And he has every intent of doing it again. Its just the, theres no other way to understand this other than witness to, yes, Witness Tampering seems like it would be the least of it. Hes basically saying to people, i think what we did, we tried to overthrow the government. Thats what we were trying to do. The people who tried to do it are heroes. Not criminals. I will pardon them if i get reelected. And for anybody whos contemplating doing this again in a similar circumstance, i applaud you and you will face, at least if im president , or whats left of the presidency if donald trump were to become the Chief Executive of the United States again. Not sure wed call it president. Wed call it Something Else uglier. Hes saying you will not be punished. You will be commended, valorized. I just think, i cant think of words harsh enough to explain it or clearer than they are now. I agree with the historian at the New York Times. I think people are, its so monstrous that people are still, many, many people, millions and millions of people in the country have not processed it, how dangerous it is and how utterly horrifying and how far outside any precedent weve seen in any history of the party weve seen of the country, that people cant compute. Were all on tilt. Some of us arent. Many people, they cant make it, they cant make it make sense in their heads and i think thats why the country is in such a state of peril. Because theres so many people who havent been able to just apprehend this basic set of facts even as donald trump tried every day to make it clearer to all of us what he tried to do and what he will do in the future. Well, were going to have a differing conversation, lets have this one instead. I think the asymmetry of trump has always been his greatest asset. You know, a campaign is set up to fact check someone in the republican primaries in 2015, the Jeb Bush Campaign was ready to say, a ha, but you werent for that tax policy and trump just went, you big fat what do you call him. Tired jeb bush. Lying ted cruz. No energy. People bring pistols and he brings a bazooka. Hes also shot people, opponents in the political arena, out of the sky with as you said, a more monstrous attack. A bigger sort of arsonal that would not just defeat the enemy in front of him, but overpower everything else. I think whats so uncomfortable is that institutions, news organizations, grapple with whether to call what he was saying lies. So while were trying to figure it out, hes just lying his way to seal up his base to not believe anybody but him. And this asymmetry continues. I think hes now conditions his base to not believe in elections. Elections now do not matter and thats where liz cheney seems to be drawing the line and bringing out an equally large arsonal by saying hes going to get away with nothing. Not potential violations of the records act, not potential records tampering, not potential efforts to overthrow an election. Shes going for the whole package, which no ones done. People said hes obstructed justice. But we have got long books that say we cant indict. Shes saying were going to hold this dangerous bafoon accountable once and for all. Can she succeed, John Heilemann . Man, 64 million question. Well just amend this one. Whats so crazy about this with trump right now, a guy whos a pathological liar, hes the biggest liar in the history of the world, right . But hes not lying anymore. Its like hes he doesnt have to. First of all, if i get reelected and then if i get reelected, there wont be punishment. Hes just now actually for the First Time Ever in his life just speaking what his, is his plain truth. Hes not even trying to obscure it with lies and whether liz cheney and the rest of them, you know, i dont, its obviously Witness Tampering. Hes obviously tampering with witnesses, but that seems like a petty crime compared to what is really being exposed here and laid bare for everyone here. I do think we are going to see when we get to this moment sometime in the late winter or early spring when the committee decides its the moments now where were going to go and take this case to the country and were going to stand up, maybe on prime time on television. Were going to have our hearings and stitch this story together. We will learn not just about whether liz cheney or any of those people, any more elected leaders that pulled together around this committee, at least on one side of the al, whether theyre capable of it. Well also learn whether were capable of seeing it. Its to some extent, a question about their capacity, but a bigger question about our capacity as a country to grapple with reality. Yeah, and you know, kim, the parallels to watergate, watergates so quaint now compared to an out of the closet want to be dictator. Trump wasnt wanting to be a dictator Behind Closed Doors. He was wanting it in public on his twitter feed and on the rally stage. If mike pence will just do the right thing and overturn the results of the election i lost. I wonder if you can just pick up on the question before the country. It wont be whether we can sort of Pay Attention long enough. It will be whether or not we care. Care about living in a democracy. What do you think . I think youre right. I think one of the biggest, i think the degree is so much less but i think the big difference is that watergate had a political backstop or as people in the President S Own Party said, its over. You lost. And that is why he stepped down before he could even be impeached. That isnt happening here. You have a Republican Party that is completely abetting the former president in the destruction of democratic systems almost unanimously with the few exceptions of people like liz cheney. So thats a big, crucial difference. I want to just make a point as to what john was saying and i totally understand and appreciate the point he was making about treason. And whether or not this Committee Really has the ability to hold this former president accountable. We left out another institution, which is federal and State Prosecutors who have the job of proving these crimes if they were committed. According to the courts, when it comes to treason, thats really something only charged during wartime. But what the president could be charged with is insurrection and the importance of that potential charge, if he could be proven to have it, is one of the penalties is that you cannot hold federal office if you are convicted of it. And that is an important democratic backstop to stop the precise dangers that were talking about if the president is again reelected. I share your thought, nicolle, that if a reelection of donald trump could mean the end of democracy because it no longer becomes a presidency and becomes something far, far worse. There are a lot of other things. Obstruction of justice. Witness tampering. You know, the president ial records act is minor. Violating that carries a top penalty of three years in prison and some fines. There are much, much more things that have happened and i really do hope that the doj is paying close attention to it. Is investing, is investigating all of this thoroughly. We talked about this with my sisters in law on our podcast, the difficulty of prove intent. The president has now taken to proving intent. I think its a lot easier now, but these, thats where im looking now, yes. The important work of this committee is crucial to preserving the record for history. But it is up to people like merrick garland. It is up to people like prosecutors in new york, in georgia where these attempts to overthrow the biggest attempt to overthrow, the clearest attempt to overthrow this election took place. To really come out with the truth and be able to make the elements of these crimes and really have some accountability that can protect the American People. And just to bring it back, Jason Johnson, to protecting the American People if they want to be protected from autocracy. You have to not want the thing that the autocratic side is selling and i think some of what johns talking about is this fear of sounding hyperbolic only happens in the center and on the left. There is no fear of sounding hyperbolic on the right an the right has been successful of conditioning their base for this outrageous behavior from trump because theyve been so hyperbolic about the rest of us, right . The attacks in the media as enemies of the people. They only worked because they conditioned the trump base to not believe anything you hear on the news. I mean, i think this fear of sort of hyperbole and being too scary has been, has limited the Truth Tellers. I agree, nicolle. One of the things, im teaching a Media Literacy class. The level of cynicism that young people have towards the media and then you mix that with old folks or older folks who decided that theres only one place they want to listen to, its hard for anyone to be an arbiter of truth, justice at this point. Thats one of the reasons i have concerns as to whether or not the january 6 committee can be effective in presenting their case to the American Public because we know there are 30 of the population that doesnt care. They dont care what the facts are. They just want donald trump in office. At this point, i dont care if hes found guilty of treason. If hes found guilty for violating records. I dont care if they find he has a blockbuster vhs tape he never returned and owes 100 million and has to go to jail. I dont care. The fact is the guy has been so obvious about being a direct danger to american democracy that he has to be jailed. He has to be punished so the arguments we have about how we go about doing it is one of the reasons why the defenders of democracy may end up failing because while theyre trying to dot the is and cross the ts, youve got another organization, because theyre no longer a party, making sure the ts and is dont matter because they control the alphabet and the count in every state. Such a good point. John heilemann, thank you for turning this entire conversation in a much better, truthier direction. Sorry. Im sorry. Thank you, my friend. Im, im preturbed. When we come back, we learned today that Colonel Benman is suing donald trump jr. , Rudy Giuliani and others for retaliation. He will join us to discuss his lawsuit after a very short break. Plus, the nfl and ongoing struggle between symbolic change on the issue of racial equality and real change. Actual change. As the Washington Football Team takes on a new name and identity, a Bombshell Lawsuit is forcing the league itself to confront an age old problem. The complete dearth of black head coaches in the nfl. Deadline white house continues after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Ouse continues afr tea quick break. Afr tea quick break. Dont go anywhere. Breeze driftin on by. If youve been playing down your copd,. Its a new dawn, its a new day,. Its time to make a stand. Start a new day with trelegy. And im feelin good. No oncedaily copd medicine. Has the power to treat copd in as many ways as trelegy. With three medicines in one inhaler, trelegy helps people breathe easier and improves lung function. It also helps prevent future flareups. Trelegy wont replace a Rescue Inhaler for sudden breathing problems. Tell your doctor if you have a Heart Condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Do not take trelegy more than prescribed. Trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. Take a stand and start a new day with trelegy. Ask your doctor about oncedaily trelegy, and save at trelegy. Com. My name is austin james. As a musician living with diabetes, fingersticks can be a real challenge. Thats why i use the freestyle libre 2 system. With a painless, onesecond scan i know my Glucose Numbers without fingersticks. Now im managing my diabetes better and ive lowered my a1c from 8. 2 to 6. 7. Take the mystery out of managing your diabetes and lower your a1c. Now you know. Try it for free at freestylelibre. Us im sitting here today in the u. S. Capitol talking to our elected professionals, talking to our elected professionals is proof that you made the right decision four years ago to leave the soviet union and come here to the United States of america in search of a better life for our family. Do not worry, i will be fine for telling the truth. Congressman, because this is america, this is the country ive served and defended, that all my brothers have served and here right matters. You could hear a pin drop. Those were the stunning moments in the first Impeachment Trial of donald trump. The courage displayed by the colonel as he stood up for what was right and explained why he did so. Even though it was right, it was not easy. He ended up having to end his career in National Security and retire from the military due to the retaliation he faced from the trump administration. So now hes filing a lawsuit against donald trump jr. , Rudy Giuliani, and trump allies, julia hahn and dan scavino from their targets of him. In 2019 and 2020, President Trump and his allies engaged in an intentional, Concerted Campaign of unlawful intimidation and retaliation against a sitting director of the National Security counsel and decorated military officer. Lieutenant colonel Alexander Vinman to prevent him and punish him for testifying truthfully in Impeachment Proceedings against President Trump. The this campaign has severe and deeply personal ramifications for Lieutenant Colonel vinman. It also left a stain on our democracy. In an oped, he says, quote, we cannot have a functional government or healthy democracy if witnesses cannot testify or federal officials cant do their jobs without fear of payback. I filed this lawsuit because i believe in the active role all citizens must play in upholding our democracy. I hope this lawsuit will shed more light on the abuses that are chipping away at our democracy and eventually bring a measure of justice to those responsible. He joins us now. Author of New York Times best seller, here, right matters. We turn to you a lot these days for your thoughts and knowledge and expertise about putins russia and his designs on ukraine and i am never not struck by the loss to the u. S. Government that youre here available to us and not them. Is that on your mind as you go through this Legal Process . Absolutely. You know, im still involved, im still trying to pitch in with my former colleagues with various departments and agencies and feeding them ideas as an outsider. Not as a, one of the planners, one of the people that could speak to the Decision Makers and make a compelling argument for those willing to defebd national skrt u. S. Interests. I find myself, because of this retaliation and intimidation on the outside, still having a voice, a voice that i guess they granted me by attacking me and forcing me out of the military, to do some good, but it is in fact intended to prevent officials from doing their duties. Im not intimidated. I think they tried to scare me. Scare other witnesses. Theyre doing so now with intimidation throughout this country. The same kinds of actors, the same kind of proxies for President Trump and i am adamant. I am focused on holding them accountable. They failed to achieve their objectives with me. I think that theyre successful with other folks that may have not shared my same experiences, have not be subject to fire and combat, but im not intimidated and im going to pursue accountability against these people. Let me read a little more from the lawsuit. The actions taken by the defendants sent a message to other potential witnesses as well. Cooperate and tell the truth at your own peril. The message reverberates to this day as witnesses subpoenaed by congress in connection with its investigation into the events of january 6th continue to heed President Trumps instructions to defy those instructions, undermining Congress Role in the fundamental principle of checks and balances between three branches of government. I think i saw for the first time when we played a clip of laura ingram, accusing you of divided loyalties an i described it as Chicken Excrement for her and i think john yu and Somebody Else were on that panel. Just on tv in front of millions of people who watch fox news making those accusations. But i think that you point out is even darker than that. That it is all for the purpose of corrupting every accountability system. Whether Congressional Oversight or the judiciary, just all for the purpose of intimidating any witness from telling the truth so that any one higher up can be held to account. Talk about the very real possibility that that could happen as it pertains to efforts to investigate january 6th . I think this is the way authoritarian regimes work. They work on fear, on intimidation. They work to entice people with gifts and rewards if they tow the line, the will. And other times, they try to fear and intimidate. They try to cow people into staying quiet and not fulfilling their duties. Not seeing something and reporting it and again, this is just, this is not what, this is not going to work with a soldier, with a military officer. I will not be intimidated. They put me In The Line Of Fire and im prepared to follow this through and hold them accountable. And it should be noted that they are trying to do the same thing right now with the january 6th commission. Theyre trying to do the same thing with the courts in georgia. And theyre threatening them and forcing those courts to seek some sort of protections from the fbi. Theyre doing this when donald trump speaks to the American Public at large and basically says that if anything happens to me, if i get arrest, go out in the streets and continue the insurrection that i had you initiate on january 6th. This is what hes trying to do. He must be held to account. We need to hold, we have a theres a famous expression in the military. Freedom is never free and we just need to realize as individuals, as Law Enforcement entity that is we need to follow through. We need to have the fortitude to deal with the consequences and hold this president and hold his circle of conspirators accountable. When you were on the receiving end from the individuals named in the lawsuit, what was your sort of sense of disbelief as to why people went along with it . They knew he was corrupt. John bolton writes in his book he knew what trump was doing was wrong, didnt want any part of it. That came out in testimony. Why do you think one of the two parties has broken bad and is now so committed to him and enabling what is so clearly antidemocratic and clearly corrupt . In a way, its a story as old as time. Its fear and profit. On the one hand, they saw some reward that they could do from carrying the president s water from fulfilling the president s dictates and mandates even though they knew it was criminal or simply wrong. I acted on what i knew was wrong. When i recorded the president s phone call Behind Closed Doors through official channels. Hes the one that exposed the whole thing. Hes the one that released the transcript. Hes the one that initiated the misdeeds and i did what i thought was right. So people will either act on profit that they could somehow benefit, elevate themselves. Gain power, gain fame, gain more, or they will be cowed and put into a corner with regards to fear and thats exactly what seems to be playing out with the Republican Party. They see a way theyre leading figures like ted cruz, josh holly, gosar. The list goes on. Hawthorne. Green. They see some profit in basically taking the president s line and carrying it forward, spreading these lies and there are other equally complicit, equally culpable individuals in the senate, in the house, that dont believe it. Folks that have sworn an oath to defend a constitution but they see political expediency, they see ability to hold their positions and carry through another election. And thats how this president is tearing this country apart. Thats why frankly our adversaries, russia and china, russia in particular right now, see vulnerabilities and are attempting to exploit it. Its because of this kind of behavior by the president and his circle. The people that support him without a process here, his accountability of those people. Without supporters, the president is nobody. The former president s nobody. We will look forward to following this as it makes its way through the process. Retired army Lieutenant Colonel alexander vindman, thank you so much for spending time with us today. When we come back, another explosive lawsuit. This one from a former head coach in the nfl who accuses the league of Racial Discrimination in its hiring of black coaches. Well get to that story after a quick break. Dont go anywhere. Well get to that story after a quick break. Quick break. Dont go anywhere. Skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. Before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fever, sweats, chills, muscle aches, or coughs or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. Nothing is everything talk to your dermatologist about skyrizi. Learn how abbvie could help you save. Making your way in The World Today takes everything youve got taking a break from all your worries sure would help a lot wouldnt you like to get away . Sometimes you want to go where Everybody Knows your name and theyre always glad you came voiceover riders. Wanderers on the road of life. The journey is why they ride. When the road is all you need, there is no destination. Uh, iim actually just going to get an iced coffee. Well, she may have a destination this one time, but usually no, ii usually have a destination. Yeah, but most of the time, her destination is freedom. Nope, just the coffee shop. Announcer no matter why you ride, progressive has you covered with protection starting at 79 a year. Voiceover cause shes a biker. Please dont follow me in. It is a global collective failure from my perspective. Mike tomlin has won more games than any other Head Black Coach in nfl history. Youve been in the room at owners meetings. I know you hear the right things, but as African Americans, all of us are used to Hearing Stuff and knowing bull [ bleep ] when we hear it. You know, i dont know if it is at the time, but i know that the results are. You know . Yeah. 1 in 32. Of the 32 nfl teams right now, theres only one head coach whos black. Mike tomlin. Comes out to about 3 in a league where some 70 of its players are black. Something to just keep many mind as we discuss the difference between symbolic change and real, actual process. On the symbolic side today, after years of criticism directed at a team name many considered to be racist, this morning, washington, d. C. s Football Team officially became the washington commanders. Golf clap worthy gesture long overdue, but a symbolic change. What about over here . Curtain number two . Real change. By now, you may have heard about brian flores. A young, up and coming, very good head coach whose firing this season was such a shock that fans and media generally agreed that hed have no trouble, no problem being hired by another team. Well, flores filed a federal lawsuit against the nfl and three teams for what he says is Racial Discrimination. It has to do with the leagues socalled rooney rule that requires teams to interview at least one minority candidate for top vacancies. According to his complaint filed in the Southern District of new york, three days before his meeting with the giants, Bill Belichick sent him a text mistakenly congratulating him. Turns out the intended recipient was brian daval, an indication the league had already made up its mind and that the flores interview was just a Box Ticking Exercise to be in compliance with the rooney rule. The nfl released a statement highlighting their deep commitment to equitable opportunities before insisting the claims by flores were without merit. An interesting position to take before investigating any of it. Giants Organization Says it is pleased and confident in its process insisting flores was in the conversation until the 11th hour even though he never interviewed. Heres what flores had to say about this lawsuit this morning. I understand the risk and yes, it was a difficult decision and i went back and forth and like i said, i love coaching. I do. Its something that im passionate about. It brings me joy. And i love helping young people reach their potential and become the best versions of themselves. Im gifted to do that. Brian but this is bigger than that. I think were at a fork in the road right now. Were either going to keep it the way it is or go in another direction and make some real change where actually changing the hearts an minds of those who make decisions to hire head coaches, executives, et cetera. Kevin, professor at the university of Maryland College of journalism, also coproducer of a new documentary. And Jason Johnson is still with us. Kevin, i pulled in the Bryant Gumble interview. I suppose its not surprise that nothing has changed, but whats always amazing is the brazenness and the brazenness of everyone being in on the joke, right . Hey, congrats, buddy, but for the wrong number being entered in, flores might not have had that piece of evidence that the whole thing looks like it was a scam. It was a scam. And i think thats what we call the old boy network. Right . White men who run the nfl and theyve run it for years. One of the things that jumps out to me about all of this is that it was 20 years ago when johnny cochran, the late great lawyer, and cyrus mary approached the nfl about their Hiring Practices and about the data they had collected, showing that it was unfair. And they had just recently sued successfully cocacola on the same sorts of claims. And the nfl reacted then by developing the rooney rule, which you referred to. Which basically said that for any Head Coaching Jobs and later on became executive jobs as well, someone of color had to be interviewed in hopes of making it a more equitable process. But we can see 20 years later the nfls still in the same spot and now, its not the problem of the rooney rule, but its really the problem of the people who have been entrusted to employ the rules. The ethics and the morals of the rooney rule. And they are quite simply unable to do that. And brian flores talks about the rooney rule and how you know, hes skeptical now that it was ever intended it would do what it was designed to do. Kevin, just explain to our viewers who flores is and take us, just back up a little bit. Take me through the firing then what should have been a process of getting picked up again based on his record, his skills, by anyone. Should have had multiple opportunities. Yeah. Hes by all means, upstanding guy in the nfl. Worked his way up the coaching ranks. Finally got a Head Coaching Coach three seasons ago with a horrible Miami Dolphins team. Not surprising struggled his first year, but the next two years, surprisingly, put together a winning team. And at the end of last year, actually went on a streak of wins and almost got into the playoffs. In fact, some people were suggesting he did such a remarkable job with such a rag tag bunch that he should be considered in the coach of the year running. And then all of a sudden, he got fired. Despite the fact that he appeared to have the franchise going in the right direction. Which is what you want out of your team. And one of the things that he revealed in his Scorched Earth lawsuit was that his owner, steven ross, offered to pay him 100,000 per game that he would lose in the hopes that losing would get them a higher position in the upcoming draft and give them a better shot at some new, hot shot player. And so being incentivized to lose and worsen your record as a black man, coaching in the nfl its not really a good thing. You can see that it is a difficult thing to escape from and if you think of you know, condoleezza rices book, twice as good, which is a saying in many black households, how can you be twice as good if in fact your record is not going to reflect it . So it was a very difficult thing for him to do and i think that was a very telling piece of this lawsuit. Let me show you brian flores in his own words. I mean the ruling is intended to get minorities an opportunity to sit down and find ownership, but i think what its turned into is an instance where guys are just checking the box. Thats been the case. Ive been on some interviews in the past where thats, ive had that feeling. Theres always no way to know for sure, but you know. I know im not alone there. But the results certainly speak if not for themselves, speak pretty loudly. 1 in 32, jason. Yeah, nicolle. Like and to think this all started, who amongst was has not sent an accidental text that ended up at the wrong person . I get it. Bill belichick sent the text message to the wrong person, but what it exposes is what anybody whos been playing attention to the nfl for years. Youve had coaches for years going i know im going on sham interviews. Theyve already got the guy they want. Its not just brian flores. Hes not just a great coach. He got the Miami Dolphins to a winning record for the first time in two years. He won four rings with the patriots. He was the Defensive Coordinator when the patriots won the ring against the rams a couple of years ago. He is an excellent coach, no reason he should have been fired, but theres a list of African American coaches who have won super bowls in the last three or four years who cant even get interviews. The solution quite frankly is not just this lawsuit, which is an important part, but we have to talk about how ownership works. These teams are being run by a bunch of mini trumps in many cases and it doesnt matter. They say, oh, if we can get African American ownership, its not an issue of having money. Ive talked about this before. In order to buy an nfl franchise, you have to have 40 of the entire value of the entire franchise up front. Youve got to be able to buy out your next two biggest partners and 26 of the 32 teams have to vote to let you in. So the race isnt inherent many of the owners, its preventing a more diverse ownership, which might result in more coaches. So this is a bigger problem than just what hes presenting, but i do think brian flores has definitely shaken the table an hell probably get paid off by the league, similar to what they did with colin kaepernick. Our friend made that point, people who cover and Pay Attention to these stories, that theres a direct line between kaepernick and flores. Explain that, jason. Well, what happened with Collin Kaepernick is he sued the nfl saying look, this is a conspiracy. A conspiracy. The leagues response was no, no, were just 32 individual franchises who hang out and have the same jackets. But in discovery, what was shown is you did have lots of people communicating about kaepernick. Teams saying dont hire this guy. So they ended up settling with kaepernick. Had john gruden fired. Even hes saying youre not going to scapegoat me. There are lots of racists throughout this league. So now youve got flores who is able to make the argument, look, qualified African American candidates are not being given the opportunity to even compete for these jobs. Ive got people showing up to my interviews who appear to be drunk. People showing up late. In contrast, you have white candidates, 38, 39yearold guys who have never coached in their lives being put in charge of billion dollar franchises. I also want to add this else you have to be. Weve not talking about African American Football Players who have won super bowls, many of them are players. You have to be an athlete in the top 1 , then you win the super bowl and cant get a call back for the interview. Kevin, what are you to do if youre brian flores and you love football and love coaching football and youre really, really good at it . Well, you would hope you do have to mott ter yourself to live up to your dream. He admitted in his lawsuit that he realizes its something he may have already done. Oddly enough he has an interview coming up, maybe two. Well have to wait and see how it works out. But, you know, the its always taken the threat of burning the house down or burning the house down in the end. Johnnie cochran and cyrus murray threatened to burn the house down and the nfl reacted. Mr. Flores has now thrown kerosene in the building and lit it on fire. So were going to see whats going to have to happen. You know, to jasons point, what do you do with these owners in the league . Its a very difficult thing to deal with, these franchises. But ill also point out that inside of the lawsuit that brian flores filed is a very historical march through the racism in the league. He points out the government how the government has interceded on these issues before which has forced the league to integrate, first in 1946 after it had resegregated itself and then again in washington, d. C. In the early 1960s when this was the last allwhite team in the league and they were forced to integrate if they wanted to play in a new stadium that was built with federal funding. Thats incredible. Well stay on it. Kevin and jason, thank you for helping us with our coverage today. Thank you very much. Quick break for us. Well be right back. Right back. And mental health. Take advantage now. Wow what happens when we Welcome Change . Take advantage now. 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