president heard secondhand, thirdhand and fourthhand from other people. in other words, rumors. >> well, cult is an interesting turn of phrase there. these are not going to be thirdhand hearsay witnesses. next week we'll hear from people who heard the alleged impeachable offenses firsthand from donald trump's own mouth. joining me is larry fifer, senior director of the white house situation room and former chief of staff of the cia. so great to see you in person. the last time i spoke with you, it was about the call itself. we talked about this on lawrence o'donnell's show. as someone who ran the situation room, this is your job. what is the setup normally? how many people listen to the call, listen to the president on the phone and would you ever expect for a phone to call, incoming, to the president on his cell phone. >> when it comes to head of state calls you'll have a lot more people listening in on the phone than a call from another u.s. government official. but when a u.s. government official calls in, in this case,