Crisis is you get all the bad stuff out before you begin again. If you havent hit bottom you must hit bottom before you can start rebuilding your reputation. Rose thats and so this thing that doesnt quite make sense to me, here is how they could embark on this new race with so much energy and all of this storytelling and this very sort of carefully woven tale of a bid for redemption knowing that they pretty much knew that Something Like this could happen. They they sort of they sort of stichte stipulated thatt might. But didnt these very savvy professionals know that this could have come along and sweep the race . Rose we continue with steven cohen and his sac capital advisors, hedge fund. With sheelah kolhatkar and tom keene. They basically impugn the entire culture of sac capital. They said that cohen the Hedge Fund Owner was hiring people specifically, the kinds of people who could potentially leak them information that he was compensating those people and rewarding them for bringing that information and trading off of it and essentially this indictment is so sweeping and strong that it makes it seem as if the entire company was sort of somehow imreplies it in this illegal activity. Guilty of saying Insider Trading is Insider Trading. In the cfa exams which a lot of the pros take you spend a lot of u u of three exams defining what insider trader is and its very, very squishy. Its an extremely hard body of law to get your hands around and i would suggest thats one of the problems the sec and the government has is, what are you going to charge them with . Is it moral responsibility, is it dereliction of management or sit this fuzzy thing called Insider Trading. Rose we continue with Chris Fischer the founder of ocearch Whose Mission is to save the great white shark. Standing next oa great white shark you feel like youre standing next to a living dinosaur. The impact that has on people is amazing. Youll see the most mature scientists, people like bob peter, they have been studying them for years, and never seen a live one. You see a grown man come to tears and you are standing next to an animal that is evolutionary perfection, that is the king of the sea. Rose Anthony Weiners campaign, steve cohens legal case, Chris Fischer and the great white sharks when we continue. Funding for the charlie rose show is provided by the following rose additional funding provided by these funders and by bloomberg. A provider of Multimedia Services worldwide. From our captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Anthony weiners campaign for new york city mayor suffered another setback. His Campaign Manager danny kedham resigned this weekend. He vowed to stay in the race. Joining us for assessment is Michael Barbaro for the New York Times, also ken auletta of the new yorker magazine and the new york bureau jodi kantor, im pleased to have them both. You have been away on a little vacation. Thank you. Sorry, im back. Rose youve been writing about this every day. Ill begin with jodi, jodi, what do you make about this . I want to quote Anthony Weiners interview, he said, youre stuck with me which is kind of a hostile way of saying im still in this race, im not getting out. So even though you know the ship is beginning to fall apart, the Campaign Manager resigned as michael reported he seems totally committed to this. And one thing we dont see is at least a visible we see all of these visible figures on the outside telling ethical get out. Peeping were just scafing over the weekend, David Axelrod and schaeffer were saying, get out of this race. There isnt anybody close to him, who has authoritative reaction to him that tells him he should leave. Rose michael, does he listen to anybody except program um after . Anthony weiner has since he entered politics had a entirely self sufficient campaign. He doesnt solicit or want the kind of Kitchen Cabinet we want. And thats been his biggest liability as a politician. He doesnt have alliances. He you could count on one hand how many people liked him. Thats why he has this being sort of rose what he is saying that convinces him to stay in the race . The reason to stay in this race is, largely, reputational and at this point financial. He has 5 million the new York City Campaign finance system has allowed him to hold onto that even when on the that even when he was in that very scandalous period a few years ago. It was the amount of money that allowed him to enter the race. And why not . If you are Anthony Weiner, create advertisements that help clear very burr nished reputation, about anything but this scandal. Rose whats your i dont think he can do it. I dont think it will work. Polls come out showing more than half of the public would not vote for him. Its very hard to overcome that kind of a negative. Now i know people said he could have overcome it before this latest disclosure of last week came out. I didnt believe it then, i dont believe it now. Rose you didnt believe it . People say you dont you might have one chance for redemption but not two or Three Chances for redemption. The mathematical issue, several weeks later theres a runoff, no ones going to get over 40 so Anthony Weiner if he got in the runoff, if he came in first or second hes going to be posted against someone else. I dont see how you overcome a 50 negative against another foe. I just dont see how you go that. Rose and what about uma jodi . She is as interesting and as fascinating because she had such a mystique and such a reputation because of her service and her work with Hillary Clinton. Yeah, one of the things weve seen in the last couple of things is she in fact has gotten beaten up along with her husband. Generally wives who have been attached to men with those kinds of sexual scandals are figures of sympathy and yet last week the tide sort of turned against her. There was a harsh New York Post cover that said what is wrong can you, senora danger. She was a very private figure who never spoke in public to a very public one. Does she give more interviews, more speeches, does she continue to talk about this sort of story line of reconciliation that she had been telling for weeks and weeks, even though we now know that the reconciliation didnt happen exactly the way they were telling the story . So i think the question of whether she retreats or comes to the forum more, tells us about the couple and what they want. Rose what would you think . I think jodi is right, if she starts to show up in Campaign Advertising that would be very interesting. Im sure there was a ton of private pain. There was a provocative piece written by a woman who thought, maybe this is a very open marriage. Rose you mean its about power and position rather than about love . That every marriage is its own black box and were never going to be able to know if its love or power that animates this or its a combination of both. But no one wants to be humiliated and she was humiliated and chose to handle her humiliation as jodi is suggesting, in a way not sympathetic. And shes also part of new yorks most interesting and important political family. You know, i think what new yorkers are really saying is that if you know, there is one scene we could watch, all of us, it would be the scene between Hillary Clinton and uma avedon. And how to work through it and how the political circumstances work through it. The question i dont think any of us can answer is what advice exactly Hillary Clinton has given to her. Especially since it is really true this is not a great moment for the clintons to have another sexual political scandal associated with them. If you have watched the clintons up close in the last couple of years, one of the things you can see especially with the former president is just how strenuously he has tried to put Monica Lewinski behind him. He has had a legacy tour of my record was about Economic Growth not about Monica Lewinski. This scandal coming up for them at the worst possible time. Rose what we dont know is whether Hillary Clinton is giving advice. Whether there are conversations taking place, can you imagine they are not taking place because of the deep personal relationship between these two people, almost like a daughter. Almost like a daughter. Bill clinton officiated at the marriage. This despite the fact that many people in the clinton world never wanted them to get married. Always found him to be a figure repellant, obnoxious, we dont know whether Hillary Clinton is talking about it. We are waiting to pick up the scraps of what they said so they are going to be extremely discreet about it. Warren how do you say to someone, i want to talk to you about your spouse, i dont think you married well . Its a conversation thats very hard to have. I dont think thats the conversation they would have. We are in the realm of pure speculation here. I think the question as a reporter i would ask is either bill or Hillary Clinton picking up the phone to say huma it is really time for him to cut his losses and get out of the race. That is the type of advice that very senior political figures give. Rose and suppose he comes back and says that is not what you did, you stayed in. Well, and then you know, its very hard to imagine the clintons interfering in this kind of circumstance. But there are all sorts of things the clintons can do to make life either easier or harder for anthony or huma in the coming months. Rose its fascinating. I dont think many people understand the time line here. Weiner resigned in twefn after lying about these posts on twitter. A year later, he is doing a series of interviews with magazines like people who paint a rosy picture of a man who has been rehabilitated. Rose with the baby now part of the family. That was part of the equation. One of those interviews was july 2nd of 2011. Ten days later Anthony Weiner ask found on a phone having a conversation with sydney leathers, a woman with whom he exchanges unspeakably raunch yir conversations about sex, and then of his penis and his body, as he wove this narrative of recovery. Rose and then the story comes out because it was a rocky time in the marriage and there was a relapse. Thats not what they were telling us or what she said subsequent to that. Theres a whole spin here that in retrospect as michael is suggesting is not true and goes to credibility. Rose and is that in the end what this is about about lying and hypocrisy, or rather than the sexual act . What any race is about for any office is how does the public feel about that candidate . Do they trust his or her character . Rose its about character. Its about judgment. Love him hate him, like the bikes, dont like the pedestrian plazas, no one questions that Mike Bloomberg is honest, that he speaks the truth, that his personal life has integrity to it. When you are asking voters to contemplate bringing Anthony Weiner into office youre asking them to cast a ballot for somebody who has been untruthful. Come up with the word you choose about his personal life for some time. Rose jodi. One of the rules of political pr and crisis pr is you get all the bad stuff out before you begin again. If you havent hit bottom you must hit bottom before you start rebuilding your reputation. So what doesnt make sense to me is how they could embark on this new race with so much energy and all of this storytelling, and this very sort of carefully woven tale of a bid for redemption, knowing that they pretty much knew that Something Like this could happen. They they sort of they sort of stipulated that it might, but didnt these two very savvy political professionals know that Something Like this could come along and sweep the race . But you know, we have any number of examples. I was hiking the appalachian trail. Rose or in brazil. Elliot is trying to escape his security details so he can go away with a prostitute. People make incredibly stupid decision in these situations. Rose like the president of the united states. Especially the president of the united states. But in original sin not in search for redemption. Maybe. But the other thing worth a moment charlie is to talk about the press. Rose okay. And the kind of coverage. This has been if you watch the evening news its been all over the National Evening news. If you were in europe as i was last week it was all over the press there. What is it about this that has enthralled us, and im not talking about this show, it is worthy to talk about a guy running for mayor and whether he has character to perform that job. The press is having a great fun and readers reading this but this is getting a little much. Rose this is bob scheiffer, the end of his sunday show face the nation. Because new york is so big and is the Media Capital of the world the mayor of new york occupies a bully pulpit second in bullishness only to the white house. Stories about that make raise real questions about behavior is about to have a chance to occupy, you know, what was called when you were back in politics the second most important job in america. He is getting somewhat like carters girls were why Anthony Weiner occupancy this interest to begin with. He is a profoundly gifted retail politician. Terms of phrase tumble out of his mouth. He has a presence i would argue in a room arrival rivals that o. Chris ie, hof. Chris chris he still has that power. Rose maybe that is why he had a chance of becoming mayor. Thats right. I think were talking about him because this is a delicious subject for the public loves it. Were selling newspapers and getting you know, more viewers to watch our shows. Rose lm go ahead. Im just really curious about what the bestcase scenario is for Anthony Weiner. It does seem very unlikely that he could win a mayoral race. Five years from now, what can you imagine, what can you what do you think he is imagining as the optimum outcome for him at this point . Rose i dont know, i was thinking way off the you remember president obama was quoted by somebody called blowworth, and remember Warren Beatty played a senator that was going to call it like it is. Playing the bullworth card, the stuff is out there im going to say what i want to about politics. Bob scheiffer, brings out, im a fighter, screw all these people, we understand each other. Michael also answered jodis question, its about redemption for him, his reputational redemption. If he makes a fair showing, doesnt win but makes a fair showing, comes out can hold his head up high that he ran a campaign of issues, he comes out enhanced, he just does, and that might be satisfactory. Rose is that enough for him . At this stage . At this stage rose he might be saying, its my reputation not about being mayor . I think thats right. Correct. Rose you both agree on that . Jodi, do you agree, this is about reputation not about becoming marry . Absolutely. Rose and huma, whats it about for her . I assume about the same thing. When you read the New York Times magazine piece in which she spoke its pretty clear that she believes or believed in the promise of him as a politician and im sure anybody in that position would prefer not to be married to a disgraced former footnote, et cetera, et cetera. But married to somebody who went on to go and do something meaningful. Rose what did she say . She said in that famous press conference, i love him, i believe in him, i trust him . But also, that it was really hard to stay with him. That was an extraordinary press conference because ive never seen public pain aired like that in such real time. She was still going through it and there she was talking about a deliberation about whether to stay with her husband. Rose what was amaze going that whole story line all of us are attracted to great stories, where she was what pedestal she was on and how people talked with her the mystique that she had and now to be so closely attached to something so scandalous. We know his interior. We have seen some pictures of miss interior. We dont know hers, she has a more interesting character. Rose because . Shes an interesting character. Rose you got to believe this has to be part of her makeup to have served like she did and with secretary clinton the way she did, she must have remarkable toughness, remarkable ability, remarkable sense of strategic wisdom. But up like her husband she was really a well liked figure in the clinton he never has been. Rose okay, there you go. That makes it more interesting. You know celebrity never hurt a man who has a Corporate Consulting business waiting in the wings for him which Anthony Weiner does. It was named after his great grandfather, it made him a great deal of money before the race, hopefully will make it after the race. The park avenue apartment they live in, the rent is about 12,000 a month. It seems likely he can go back to that life. The biggest revelation may be Elliot Spitzer because i have talked to a lot of people in the last couple of days who feel that spitzers sexual scandal looks completely generic when it comes to weiner. There are graphic pictures of his body on the internet and the spitzer affair which was quite outsized does seem to fade in comparison. Rose jodi suggests spitzer may be benefiting from that, maybe . In a sense when you put those two gentlemen side by side, one seems to have a much bigger record as an elected official, that would be Elliot Spitzer. When you look at what he did as attorney general of new york, the case he brought, the money he drew out of corporations that never did when he was attorney general, that is not the record that Anthony Weiner had. He wrote and passed really one bill in his time. Rose that was part of the reason bill clinton was able to overcome the odds he faced because people liked him as president and believed he had been a good president and he had friends. But people dont like Elliot Spitzer, i suspect one of the things that will happen after this cloud passes, i assume it will unless there are other revelations, there are a lot of people, the labor unions who really dont like Elliot Spitzer and want to help his opponent and i suspect the guns are going to start blasting away with Elliot Spitzer in the next few months around i suspect we are not done with his, quote, scandal. Rose thank you, gentlemen and thank you, jodi. Thank you. Rose well be right back. Stay with us. The case against steven cohen, the Securities Exchange commission has brought a charge, the sec says it will continue operations as it fights in court. Prosecutors call the evidence of wrongdoing voluminous. Questions of oversight and Business Practices of hedge funds. Sheelah kolhatkar, spond to bloomberg businessweek. And tom keene, he is the editor at large of Bloomberg News and the host of bloomberg surveillance, one of my favorite programs. Im pleased to have him here. Ill begin with you. How voluminous evident of wrongdoing, tell me what the sec looks at this and what is behind this indictment . Well, essentially the u. S. Government has accused sac capital as being criminally responsible for the action he of analysts and traders who have been trading based on improper information. Rose Insider Information . SnideInsider Information. The u. S. Attorney in are manhattan said this was unprecedented in the hedge fund industry, very strong wording. They basically impugn the entire culture of sac capital, they said that cohens contacts with executives at public companies, executives that could leak him information, that he was compensating those people and rewarding them for bringing that information and trading off of it. And essentially this indictment is so sweeping and strong that it makes it sound as if the entire company was somehow implicit in this illegal activity. Rose there is an impression tom, that lots of people believe that theres an effort to get steve cohen. From where i sit, with the interviews ive had there is an idea which sheelah knows a lot better than i do, i think youre innocent until Proven Guilty but that process may not happen. He may go out of business before we even get to that decision. The idea of do you get him through the Legal Process either sec or the courts or do you get him just through process . Rose do you think that would be part of they want to do grievous damage to his company and therefore they would get him i think theres no question about that. You cant run a business based on trust with these charges these allegations made against you. Well, essentially they have been trying for months and even years to rose because they believed that he was guilty of Insider Trading . Well the, the government has been involved on this huge crack down on Insider Trading for years. Rose and some have gone to prison. They have been after Portfolio Manager and Portfolio Manager, amassing a doe dossierd they would have preferred to charge cohen himself. Rose did not, because that says to me they are charging the company, which is an unusual move, they were not able to get the case against him personally for Insider Trading. They didnt have a witness that talked to them about Insider Trading. Rose do you believe that as this process unwinds that somebody might turn and therefore they have a case . I think theres always hope. I mean, last week, the u. S. Attorney said well, tomorrows another day and they havent ruled it out. Now i would think that cohen if you were to sort of settle these charges would expect his own immunity to be part of that. But its certainly an open question whether or not he is i think whats interesting out here is Insider Trading, you and i throw it out, we are guilty of saying, Insider Trading this, Insider Trading that. In the csa exams which a lot of these people take, you spent the first few exams defining what insiderriner Insider Trading. Its a particularly squishy problem. Is it dereliction of duty or this fuzzy thing called Insider Trading . Rose one small point. My impression is or or my understanding is, whatever size his fund is in the sec a lot of it is his own personal money, hes not simply built up as many people in the Hedge Fund World do, they go out and raise money for a fund and then they get rich because they take a percentage, the 2 in 20 or whatever it is. But a lot of this money is his money, his own capital. No question about it. Rose why wouldnt that continue, why ask that going to be damage . I would suggest sheelah, even when you have to continue with the billions of dollars that mr. Cohen wouldin would manage s familys money. Certainly the trading partners, goldman sacs, morgan stanley, they cannot stop him from trading his own money. The sec filed civil charges against cohen accusing him of failing to supervise his employees. They could win a bar for cohen but that would mean he couldnt serve as an investment advisor, but because of terrible stories swirling around him and hes argued all along that he hasnt done anything wrong but this publicity has already caused many of his investors to flee. Hes got around a billion dollars in outsider money as well as his own money. Hes managing his own money although it would be such a large pile, it would be a large force in the market. Rose tell me what his skills are . He is an information junky. People who know him describe him as incredibly smart, mercurial, moody. He wants to talk to his traders, he became famous, a tape reader as someone who could look at the market on the stock ticker tape and impugn where stock prices were going to go. And he essentially turned that into an incredibly profitable business. Rose what about his reputation . What he does, hard charging, Knowledge Based as sheelah says. You and i remember the saw dust on the floor and the cigar bips. This guy is lined up with computers, reading the tape is not what theyre doing. At bloomberg, shameless plug, what theyre doing is making minute decisions over short time fraings based on an information advantage and the question here for the government, i would suggest, was there a fairness in that information advantage . Theyre not investing over three weeks or three years. Theyre investing over, it could be three seconds. Or a day, is a long time. Its shortterm work. Rose and they gave him information, unfair advantage to make that trade . I cant tell you that now. Rose no, no, thats the question. The question was how fair was their information received . Rose rt must be a hard determination to make that. I agree, i dont agree that its Insider Trading or something new theyre inventing now. Thats somewhat unfirm, the aspects or definition of Insider Trading is still being worked out but this edge comes up, very common term on wall street, its used a little less shamelessly now but it used to be sort of a code for your information advantage. What is the edge . What is the thing you know that other people dont know that will allow you to make money . It used to get tossed around a lot, without any shame or concept of hiding it. Now the whole concept of edge should be, you shouldnt be trading on information that other people dont have it. Rose im quoting felix salmon, its much harder to understand what a trader does, of what differentiates a good trader from a bad trader. I agree. I interviewed julian robertson, you know the book, more money than god. Rose right right. He was adamant that this would not affect the hedge fund industry, because Steven Cohens work is so different and unique. Rose how about the tiger fund that he founded . Oh, absolutely, thats the tone i got from mr. Robertson. Rose what is steven cohen saying, theyre after me, im not guilty, this is a terrible miscarriages of justice. All looping, as two Portfolio Managers, one former and one current was charged and now he himself has been charged and his firm has been charged criminally, he has said that he is not guilty, that there are other explanations for this. Rose the other reasons for it . It is difficult to prosecute hedge fund managers, especially for steven cohen because he so active in the market. He will trade 80 different securities in one day. Who is to say what is driving a trading decision and of course he always points to the fact that they have a very large compliance department, he believe they have 38 people. Rose former sec people and people like that. They have hired people from goldman sachs. Now the government is arguing that that is something that people didnt actually pay any attention to, that it was there for show that they werent actually rose they are arguing that this is before they had the compliance fundthe compliance operation in place . There is a little bit about that too. Some of these go back to 2008, and criminal activity going back to 1999. His compliance department, compliance procedures one could assume have become more robust over the years. Rose talk about hedge funds in general, are they changing, making more money, or less money and what will they be looking at in this case . Without question there will be more daytoday rigor of are we doing the right things and what are our best practices in place, particularly in terms of information flow. The backdrop of this is on average, hedge funds have underperformed. You mentioned earlier charlie, the 2 and 20 where you get a big fat fee of 2 versus less than 1 at most funds and you get 20 of a gain over a hurdle rate. You make the hurdle rate and you make 20 over that. Most hedge funds havent made that, they have underperformed. Rose why is that . We could go for hours on that. The answer is it is a very difficult business to provide superior returns in any im being generous, 15 much hedge funds get it right, earn the fee and keep their investors happy. I want you to know, sac capital was in that area at the time. Rose four in 50 . I wouldnt know about that, away from superstars like mr. Cohen. Rose i was told among superstars you know this better than i do. Mr. Cohen charges higher fees than anybody else in the business, he used to. Yes, his firm was taking 50 of the profits and the reason they were able to do that is because they outperformed for you. They only had one down year, 2008. They had years and years of 25 even higher returns. They made many investors very rich. They are loyal to him. I think many of them are reluctant to leave, because they feel he did well for them. Rose is it easier for hedge funds to raise funds now or has it become more difficult . Well, theres still a lot of money flowing into hedge funds in general. But i do think there are a lot of hard conversations going on among endowment, Pension Fund Managers and their boards about whether they can justify paying these fees. Because as tom mentioned they have been underperforming, the s p, the market has been going up. Hedge funds really are not meant to do that. They are meant to provide diversification, they are meant to provide in a way thats not correlate lated to the market so they look at that. Rose could you argue that hedge funds were where the best and brightest work because they make the most money . Youre right. I was sitting in a meeting with the chairman of the sec, bill donaldson, i requested him the question and he said tom, its a brain drain on wall street, thats exactly what its been. They make three times, two and a half times what a socalled buyside manager makes. And the smartest people have gone to the hedge fund industry, with that is mediocrity. There are the underperformers. Rose where are we . Hedge funds are under scrutiny and what is the next thing to happen, what is the next turn of the dial . Sheelah knows it better than i do. But i would say they are all under test in a market thats up 19 yeartodate and most hedge funds arent up 19 yeartodate. Where most of them are, not much about steven cohen but their own picture at the end of the year. I would say the cohen story, reefng its peak is going to cause some soul searching. For cohen himself hes got a criminal case that his firm has got oconfront and thats going to drag on for a long time and employ many, many high priced lawyers. Rose and make enough money to buy more art and beautiful homes. He will continue to buy beautiful things and the government prosecutors will continue to be annoyed when they read about that in the newspaper. Rose thank you, sheelah, tom. Go home, go to bed, youve been up since 3 00. Well be right back. Stay with us. Chris fischer may know mower about sharks than anybody alive. He founded ocearch, ocearch has tracked more than 100 sharks. The vast majority have been great whites. The organization takes a novel approach to catching and biosampling on board without using a harpoon. Over 40 sharks are being tracked around the world on his web site. Im pleased to have Chris Fischer at this table. Welcome. Thank you charlie, it is a pleasure to be here. We have been doing conversations at cbs and im honored to have you here. Tell me this thing about you and sharks. This thing is about me and the ocean and sharks are the way i can effect change soonest and one of the biggest crisis on the water. And so we have massive knowledge gaps of all these giant creatures and if we dont solve the puzzle of their lives we cant ensure their future and without their live there is no future of the ocean. Rose ecosystem of the ocean is determinate by what the sharks do . They are the great balance keeper, the loin of the ocean, lion of the ocean. If they get removed, the rest of the system collapses falls out of balance and right now, 200,000 sharks today were finned and removed from the ocean. Up to 73 million a year. Rose by whom . By commercial fishermen finning them to send those fins to asia for a bowl of soup. We are trading the future of the ocean for a bowl of soup. Rose when you look at them tell me about the majesty of the great whites, also the fear they induce in people. This is one of the most humbling things you can experience standing next to a great white shark, you feel like youre standing next to a living dinosaur. The impact that has on people is amazing. Thing guys who have been studying animals for 40 years have never touched a live one. You see a grown man come to tears. And youre standing next to an animal that is evolutionary perfection. That is the king of the sea. Rose what are his qualities . How big is he, what does he weigh . 18 feet long. Rose what is the difference between he and she . She is always fatter than he is, over 4,000 pounds so she can carry ten, four and a half foot babies. Rose four and a half foot babies . They give birth to them, they drop them off on a beach where theres plenty of food. He is far more aggressive, he is 18 feet long not as fat as she is but far more determined. And to begin to solve their puzzle, he wanders to and from the breeding sight every year, she goes on a twoyear migratory route because it takes her 18 months to have her babies. Rose what kind of route will she go on . She will go on a route leaving the breeding site, going about a thousand miles a month, until she end up in a place she wrants to gestate. The sofa, halfway between l. A. And hawaii. We are trying to determine where that is in the atlantic, our shark mary lee has shoad us where she is going ogestate. Rose why is that . Where is that . Right off the floridageorgia border. Rose why is that the site . A dependable food source, where she can stay and let her babies grow. Rose is the temperature warmer, easier to push the energy of the babies. These are all guesses that the scientists and i will talk about, and soon well will have the data we need. And youre trielg to get the data for what reason . We have to know where the nursery is so we get destructive types out of the nursery. We cant be gillnetting the babies. We have to to know where the nurseries are. We have to discover the breeding sites. We have to give those mature animals a little room, we have to get the balanceseekers. Imagine africa with no lions. Rose convince the National Governments they have to stop . Absolutely. I spend a lot of time with with policicy makers. Its not necessarily to stop, its to create a sustainable past. One of the things im focused on is maintaining a centrist approach. You have to go where the data face you and takes you. And we need to let the data create a future for our sharks. Rose tell me what you do. Oh, what do i do . I didnt really know this about myself. I was kind of at a think tank meeting this weekend. I didnt realize how disruptive i am, we are disrupting, we found an entrepreneurial way to get it done which allows us to not search the institution if it serves the resource. We have disrupted the approach to research instead of individuals and institutions trying to get ahead. We get them recall to collaborate and put the sharks in the ocean first. Weve disrupted television to some degree, we leverage television for four years, Series Television, to build a global brand. And fund 10 million worth of research over the years. Rose how many have you tagged . We have tagged about 100, about 65 great whites. Rose how do you do that . We have to capture the fish. This was part of the method in the beginning we had to pioneer that was very difficult. No one had ever captured these 4,000 pound great whites before. I remember the fear, heading out not knowing what was going to happen. I get emotional, i cant remember i cant believe im at this table. I believe in 2007, heading out with my captain, who has been with me since the 90s, creating bridges across these communities and not knowing what is going to happen. And we went out there and we got kicked in the face a few times but we never gave up. Rose kicked in the face means . Like they would destroy our gear, breaking our bodies, the biggest gear in the world was being destroyed. I used to sit at a dinner table very much like this at my parents house, my father and mother were amazing. They used to say, never gem overwhelmed about a sense of a challenge. An inch is a cinch, a yard is very hard. Soon it will be right before you. We inched forward and we figured it out. Rose so how will you measure success . We will measure success by published papers, 40 published papers being written on our work right now. We will measure success on how inclusive we are, open source, bring the people onto the ship by giving the content away, give the data away, allow the world to track the sharks. And whats really exciting is, really as an explorer we will be there with anyone. At the end of 2015 i will have led my 20th expedition. Rose you think of your mission like cousteau . I think of my world to po pour the worlds oceans into peoples home and into childrens homes. We are getting ready to launch a stem based curriculum thats integrated, we will make science cool again, math, geography and geology as they are tracking the great white shark. Rose what stands in your way of reaching these goals . I think many of the things standing in our way we have already passed through. Rose youre twothirds home say . We have proved the method, the pedigree, we are funded, some of our Great Fortune 500 companies have said, this is great for our brand, great for our children, we will educate your future employees, stem based skills which is the future of our jobs. So now it is about you know keeping everyone alive charlie. It is about leading 22 people on a trip that i go to from here with everything in order, and now just solely living in the moment. To get all the sharks and all the people through it. So that at the end, you know, we can just, i think, explode our scale in inclusion, and get the whole world exploring. What kid doesnt want to be an explorer . What kid doesnt want to be an explorer, theyll be on the shipper at all times and explore with us. Rose there is perception in what is it called, sharknado, a great white puts fear in los angeles, that kind of thing. Yeah. Rose does that do harm to your goal or is that looked at entertainment and Everybody Knows the difference . I think its mostly the latter, its so ridiculous and out there. I think what sharknado is, its leverage technical impact of sharks. Theyve got people tweeting while theyre watching and driving traffic and its a successful content distribution strategy, i dont think it has much to do with sharks. Rose you had shark week on the discovery channel. What is that . Shark week is different than we are. We are replacing all of the unknown with the fear, with facts. So we can be curious about their lives. When you look at rose actually what you want to do and i know this from conversation is change the perception so if you appreciate the shark, understand the danger, but appreciate the shark and how it is central to the ecosystem of the ocean, you know, then you will see them in a different way. Thats correct. Rose and if that kind of idea gains scale, then you may be able to make some inroads in terms of protecting the young sharks. Absolutely. I mean when i talk to the scientist, if we can shift the tone from the theme music to jaws to one of curiosity, that can be as exciting as anything we learn. Rose and the excitement of you being on the water and seeing a great white is what . Simple things like i love to see the scientists who see us deliver them something they have never touched. I love covering them up on data, i love the fact that we can be 100 on mission and open source everything. And be inclusive. I believe inclusiveness is inspiring, exclusiveness is a turnoff. So if we can be inclusive at every level, we can inspire the world. Rose i want to ask you about two specifics. One, the global shark tracker, you developed that. That is being inclusive. That is allowing the world to see our data real time as the sharks travel besides the ph. D. Es, so people can be a part of seeing where the shark is going and thats whats creating the conversation with the curious tone. Because people are chatting online, what are they doing . Why is mary lee doing, is she giving birth . Rose tell them who mary lee is. Mary lee is a 4,000 pound great white shark tagged off of cape cod that i named after my mother. I thought it was the final shark we would tag. Our show had cancelled from the network, i had scraped together the last of my personal liquid cash and i, last september, this is it, if we dont go do this now, it may never happen and i probably can only hold on for a few months before i get buried by the ship and because we werent making a show for first time i was able to invite the global media to participate on the ship. Be inclusive. And suddenly the media distributed the story about our work. And our impressions, the people who followed was six times greater than the amount of people who had watched our tv series that year on television and suddenly i was like, were bigger when we are inclusive. Were bigger when we invite the world in to explore than we are by making Series Television which didnt allow us to do that because it would scoop the series that would air eight months later. Rose now, Mary Lee Mary lee saves my business, saves my house. Rose this shark also stays close to the coast. We didnt know this was going to happen. She ignited the southeastern united states. Here you have a 16 and a half foot shark spending a tremendous amount of its time in 15 feet of water, right in the surf. And it ignited the southeastern united states. And im so proud of that area of the world because those people, you know, youre from that part rose north carolina. Im sorry about the university of louisvilles success in the ncaa. The people are so connected to the ocean, they live on the ocean, love the ocean that they began the conversation about mary lee, it is one of the curiosity, i think they inspired the rest of the country and planet. Rose how long will you do this . I will do this until the job is done, if that takes the rest of my days, and i can hold it together, i will do that. I am on a application, it is not hard to get out of bed in the morning, there is much needs to be done, if not us, then who . There is no one i would be helping then. Rose thank you for coming. Pleasure for having me. Rose thank you for joining us. See you next time. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org