Transcripts For KQED PBS NewsHour 20140718

You get the outlying areas of milwaukee and you cant get much redder. Woodruff and its friday, mark shields and david brooks are here, to analyze a full week of news. Those are just some of the stories were covering on tonights pbs newshour. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by moving our economy for 160 years. Bnsf, the engine that connects us. Ive been around long enough to recognize the people who are out there owning it. The ones getting involved, staying engaged. They are not afraid to question the path theyre on. Because the one question they never want to ask is, how did i end up here . I started schwab with those people. People who want to take ownership of their investments, like they do in every other aspect of their lives. And with the ongoing support of these institutions this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Woodruff the air disaster in ukraine sparked worldwide condemnation today, and fresh claims and counterclaims over who shot down the plane. President obama called it an outrage of unspeakable proportions, as questions arose over how the crash site is being overseen. A warning parts of this story may be disturbing to some viewers. Woodruff across fields of wheat and rows of sunflowers, emergency workers and others combed the widespread crash site of Malaysia Airlines flight 17. Many carried sticks with white flags to mark the locations of victims. The boeing 777 had been flying from the netherlands to malaysia when it was hit by a missile over Eastern Ukraine, not far from the russian border. Today, local people recalled moments of horror on the ground. translated it was about 5 p. M. There was a very strong plane rumble, then there was a sort of explosion or flap, and then people started falling from the sky. People were appearing right from the clouds. Then the planes fuselage appeared and landed there, 50 meters away from here. Woodruff of the 298 passengers and crew, more than half were dutch. The rest came from at least ten other nations, including one american. By days end, more than 180 bodies had been counted. But the area, held by pro russian rebels, remained far from secure. Some people were seen taking pieces of wreckage as souvenirs, while european monitors said they were blocked from gaining access to the site. The planes black box recorders. There was also confusion over the planes black box recorders. Some reports said rebels had found them, while one separatist leader denied it. Meanwhile, charges and counter charges flew over who shot down the plane. Ukraines government released recordings of what it said were phone calls between rebels and a russian intelligence officer. In it, one rebel says we have just shot down a plane. Later, another voice says it was 100 a passenger aircraft. The head of Ukraines Security Service said that theres more evidence in the form of other intercepted conversations. translated two things have been ascertained the first is that we showed a place on the border where a heavy missile launcher crossed into the territory of ukraine before the attack. And terrorists clearly confirmed that the crew entered from the territory of russia and were russian servicemen. Woodruff Ukraines Interior Ministry also released a video it said showed the missile launcher used in yesterdays attack. Officials said it was spotted yesterday, with one of its four missiles missing. Still, rebels and russian officials denied any direct role in the catastrophe. Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov translated regarding the claims from kiev that we allegedly did it ourselves you know, i have not heard a truthful statement from kiev for months. The eyes of the world are on Eastern Ukraine, and we are going to make sure that the truth is out. Woodruff at the white house, president obama joined worldwide demands for what he called a credible, International Investigation. In order to facilitate that investigation, russia, pro russian separatists and ukraine must adhere to an immediate ceasefire. Evidence must not be tampered with. Investigators need to access the crash site. And the solemn task of returning those who were lost onboard the plane to their loved ones needs to go forward immediately. Woodruff the president said teams from the f. B. I. And National Transportation safety board are on their way to ukraine. And, he strongly suggested russia bears at least partial blame, for supplying the rebels with sophisticated weapons, and the people or training to use them. There are only certain types of antiaircraft missiles that can reach up 30,000 feet and shoot down a passenger jet. If mr. Putin makes a decision that we are not going to allow heavy armaments and the flow of fighters into ukraine across the ukrainianrussian border, then it will stop. Woodruff in moscow, president putin did not address the issue of whether russia has given surfacetoair missiles to the rebels. Instead, he again put the blame on the Ukrainian Government. translated this tragedy would not have happened if there was peace in that land, if the fighting had not been restarted in the southeast of ukraine. And of course, the state on whose territory this happened carries the responsibility for this terrible tragedy. Woodruff the russian leader did agree with the call for an immediate ceasefire. The u. S. And russia also skirmished at the united nations, where the Security Council pressed for an investigation without delay, and ambassadors traded verbal volleys. If indeed russianbacked separatists were behind this attack on a civilian airliner, they and their backers would have good reason to cover up evidence of their crime. Thus, it is extremely important than an investigation be commenced immediately. translated there is a need for an impartial, open investigation of what happened. Pressure shouldnt be brought to bear on this investigation by trying to prejudge its outcome with broad statements and insinuations that arent justified. Woodruff the disaster drew special attention in the world aids community because scores of passengers on the plane were researchers and activists en route to a conference in australia. They included the former head of the International Aids Society and a spokesman for the world health organization. People have been devastated, this is just a terrible, terrible blow to the whole h. I. V. Movement. What if the cure for aids was on that plane . Really, we dont know. Theres some very prominent researchers that have been doing this for a very long time. Woodruff mourners around the world today honored the memories of all the victims. Many left flowers at the Dutch Embassy in kiev. Similar memorials were erected outside the dutch and malaysian embassies in moscow. Woodruff we take a closer look at what its like at the scene where the plane went down with matt frei of independent television news. I spoke to him a short while ago. Matt frei, you just arrived in the area. What do you know of what is at the crash site now . Well, i spoke to a monitor from canada just a few minutes ago who has just come back from the crash site which is about an hours drive from where i am now. And its dark and theres a curfew of people that drive in the dark in this part of the world these days because its just two dangerous. What he told me is extraordinary because essentially described the biggest crime scene on the planet, one of the biggest crime scenes in aviation history gathered by nothing more than a group of what he described as junk and hoodlums in uniform. These are pro russian rebels, all of them armed, most of them junk or half junk guarding this masmasquerade which has been treated by the locals, by mierntminorswho live in the arer family have covered people by blankets. They tried to salvage some of the things they think might be sensitive like passports and so on. They tried i think very hard not to contaminate the crime scene in any particular way. The other interesting thing is that this monitor said when he arrived at the scene, they got a very hostile reception from the people guarding the grave. They werent allowed in there and it took a little bit of negotiation. They did finally arrive. There were sam reports of warning shots being fired in the air. The relationship between this group of monitors and the rebels has been extremely tense in the past. They are perhaps Still Holding some of them captive, hass tinges hostages. Woodruff the monitors did they return to the crash site to try to exert some control over it. The plan is to go back, the plan is to prepare the ground for others to come in. I mean, normally when you have a crash like this, you know this judy, you have a human avalanche of experts of forensic experts, of aviation experts descending on the scene to secure the black box, to sift through the evidence, to secure the crime scene. None of thats going to be possible until the political situation around the crash site, and im talking about the border area of Eastern Ukraine has been sorted out. Woodruff matt frei talking to us from donestk. Thank you veaf. Thank you. Woodruff i want to zero in on the crash site itself as well as questions why the jet liner was on this flat light. Our science correspondencent miles obrien who was a pilot himself and close observer of aviation matters joins me now. Miles, first on the crash site, how unusual is it to have a scene like this without any sort of official oversight, people who are watching it very carefully to make sure its not disturbed. As best i can tell, judy, what matt just described is unprecedented, as well as being horrific. Imagine being a Family Member who lost a loved one on that aircraft, knowing that the bodies are being treated with such terrible disrespect. Never mind the investigation as to the cause. There should be a big strip of yellow crime scene tape around this site and a preserved scene for investigators to come in and do their work, to document where the bodies are, and then just as quick as humanly possible, treat them with the respect they deserve. What we have is hoodlums who are around this scene and bodies that are decomposing which is just horrific. Woodruff this is horrific indeed. Miles, i want to ask you about the tbliet o flight of this pla. Why was a passenger plane flying over a war zone, a place where militants had access of surface to air missiles. Its just a commercial decision which trumped a common sense safety decision. Now the truth be told technically this aircraft was flying in fair space above the socalled lid of the war zone, up to 32,000 feet was a no fly zone. They were at 33,000 feet. As a pilot i can tell you, i always like to have an out. When youre flying with around a thousand feet of margin, if you something that requires you to descend rapidly or decompression, an engine loss or whatever, in short order youre going to be right in the middle of a no fly zone. Best case scenario, youre going to end up having to land do an Emergency Landing inside contested territory. So for a carrier to fly over these zones with such little margin for error, raises a lot of questions which im sure these families would like to advanced. I looked at the flight paths of some other airlines and it wasnt malaysia that went through on a routine basis. If you look at air france and British Airways, they scrupulously avoided ukraine air face for somspace for some timet is the prudent thing to do. Woodruff as i understand it, u. S. Carriers have been avoiding this area as well. Who decides, who recommends to air care juries what is safe, what isnt safe. How are those decisions made, carrier by carrier. Its the responsibility of the carrier and ultimately the captain to reject the flight plan. If a dispatcher gives them a tbliet plaflight plan over the e its up to the captain to say this doesnt feel safe to me, we should take a few extra minutes, burn a little extra fuel to go around. So the faa had issued a flight prohibition zone, the european counterpart had done similar things. But each airline is responsible to the home countrys regulatory agency. And in this case, its a patchwork and not everybody was paying as close attention to what was going on in the ukraine. These carriers, however, knew to fly safely wood wood jus. Woodruff we know there are places on the planet where there are hot wars of some type going on. If you are a passenger how do you know the plane youre on is going to stay safe. Thats a very good and difficult question. You dont know the flight plan when you get on that flight. And i think one thing you can do is look at past performance. Just looking at online and realizing that British Airways and air france were avoiding ukraine, that tells me something about how they run their airline. Woodruff miles obrien, we thank you. Youre welcome. Woodruff to some of the days other main stories now iran and six world powers, including the u. S. , agreed to extend talks on curbing the Iranian Nuclear program. Sunday had been the deadline for finishing a longterm deal. The extension grants an extra four months. The number of civilians dying in the violence of iraq is rising sharply. That word comes in a new report from the united nations. It says that between january and june, nearly 5,600 civilians were killed in iraq. There were just over 7,800 killed in all of 2013. Sunni extremists have stepped up their fight against the Iraqi Government since the beginning of the year. Waters off the u. S. Atlantic coast will be opened to oil and Gas Exploration for the First Time Since the 1980s. The Obama Administration opened the way today, approving the use of sonic cannons. They fire sound waves 100 times louder than a jet engine to pinpoint energy deposits beneath the ocean floor. Officials acknowledge thousands of Sea Creatures may be harmed in the process. Firefighters in Washington State battled a large wildfire today thats destroyed about 100 homes. The fire has scorched 260 square miles in the northcentral part of the state, and forced the evacuation of an entire town, 120 miles from seattle. 100 miles to the south, another major fire burned near the town of leavenworth, forcing hundreds more to flee. Woodruff shipping giant fed ex is vowing to fight federal charges that it helped illegal pharmacies deliver drugs to customers, without prescriptions. A grand jury indictment, announced last night, accuses fedex of conspiring to ship painkillers, sleeping aids and antianxiety medicine. The Company Denies wrongdoing, and says it will plead not guilty. Wall street finished the week by rebounding from yesterdays losses. The Dow Jones Industrial average gained 123 points to close at 17,100. The nasdaq rose 68 points to close at 4,432. And the sandp 500 added 20, to 1,978 for the week, the dow gained about 1 . The nasdaq and the sanp rose about half a percent. Still to come on the newshour how an International Investigation into the downed plane could work; israel warns of a widening Ground Invasion into gaza; shields and brooks on the weeks big stories; and what wisconsin tells us about americas political divide. Woodruff leaders from around the world called for an investigation into who shot down the malaysian passenger plane. But how can that be done in the middle of a war zone . Hari sreenivasan has that. Sreenivasan and we turn to New York Times reporter Mark Mazzetti. And p. J. Crowley, who served as assistant secretary of state during the first Obama Administration and is now a fellow at George Washington university. Mark, i want to start with you. From your sources in the Intelligence Community, is there any certainty on whether the surface to air missile was from russia or from the rememberrals. Not certainty on that point. You heard president obama put the point pretty clearly on moscow today either they did it themselves or they give it to the rebels and doing this by proxy. Either way the president said intelligence officials are sort of pointing out, its russia is escalating the conflict by introducing these surface to air missiles. But you raise a good point, exactly how this happened, exactly how the missiles got there and when they got there is still an important point and question to answer. Sreenivasan is there any kind on time line how they could make such a determination. It would be going back to satellite images looking at the plumes of smoke, about where exactly these were fired, going back to intelligence. We heard in the last couple days Ukrainian Government put out intercepted communications among insurgents about the transfer of these weapons. It could be something in the next few days we know a lot more but its always the first couple days after the fact hard to know because theyre trying to double check all the intelligence sources. Sreenivasan considering this is an active war zone, wouldnt that mean that there are mary eyes i more eyes in thy watching. Absolute let contrast between malaysia fight 370 the mystery that we do not yet know about that airplane is in sharp relief to what we have here. We do have a crash site, we do have eye witnesses. And because this is a conflict zone, intelligence agencies not just u. S. But others, have already been concentrating a lot of assets in this piece of territory. So notwithstanding some of the concerns that have been raised about the lack of security at the crash site, theres going to be a lot of information at the crash site anyway. But beyond that a lot of intelligence information over time should be able to help us answer many of the key questions that this has raised. Sreenivasan staying with you for a second, we heard the president earlier this afternoon call for a ceasefire, call for unfettered access. As we heard thats just not happening, theres not a secure area. What can we do or what can be done to change that . Its going to be very very difficult. Obviously this is not a part of the country of ukraine that the government in kiev controls. So we have some negotiating to figure out what kind of access, who controls it and then rumors about whether the black boxes are still at the scene or been moved. So when the president says there should be a credible International Investigation trying to figure out the roles of that will be a challenge obviously given the high political stakes behind what the investigation produces. Sreenivasan mark, from your reporting whats hatching from behind the whats happening from behind the scenes especially in the Intelligence Community. Theyre trying to nail down the providence of these weapons. And if they can, tie them back to either the russian military. I mean there were accusations made today. President obama accused them of training, moscow of training separatists. The top nato generals several weeks ago said that there have been training going on in russia of ukrainian separatists. So these things are adding up. The Intelligence Community would be adding the signal intelligence, the images, other kind of sourcing to be able to nail down a more solid case. Another really important data point here is on monday, you had a Ukrainian Military transport plane shot down by a surface to air missile. Thats the first case air to surface missile shooting from a plane and thats the first issue introduced into this conflict and that was a really significant develop. Sreenivasan p. J. Wouldnt that be a warning sign a big flag goes up if they are able to shoot something up to 20,000 feet. Why werent they alarmed about it. You got the conflict and its perhaps a deeper conflict than perhaps we recognized in recent weeks or months. But the real question is what does this say about Russian Support for the ukrainian separatists. This would be the political challenge behind the investigation. Putin has been conciliatory in public but obviously the visible hand of russia has been deeply reached into ukraine and they are providing meaningful support and have largely achieved the objective of regaining leverage over ukraine and also potentially destabling the eastern part of the country. The challenge for not only the United States but also europe is can you use this tragedy and investigation that follows to reestablish some leverage that moves this back towards the political solution and negotiation that russia has spoken in favor of that really undermined over the past few months. Sreenivasan staying with you for a second. You mentioned the word leverage. The u. S. Has had very little leverage over russia, especially in the past few months. What if there is a direct determination or determination that theres a more direct connection between russia and what happened. What does the u. S. Do then . I think theres a fork in the road here, and youre exactly right, while the United States has a profound stake in this in terms of one imposing costs on russia for its foreign policy, thats something that largely, thats more significant in the european hands than in the american hands since the european economy is far more integrated with russia than is is the american economy. And this will be an opportunity for vladimir putin, does he change his policy, does this scare him sufficiently that his proxies have overstepped National Norms to dediscriminate what the president and others have called for that he has not yet actually done. But if russia is not responsive to what the National Community is demanding, weve got to relook at the nature of the russian u. S. Relationship the nature of the russian european relationship and structure that for the foreseeable future as long as putin is in power. P. J. Crowley, and Mark Mazzetti thank you so much. Thank you. Woodruff now, to the middle east, where israeli officials now say their ground offensive in gaza could last two weeks. Palestinian Health Officials reported more than 30 gazans killed since the attack began overnight. And, one israeli soldier died. Our chief Foreign Affairs correspondent Margaret Warner has the latest. Warner israeli tanks kept rolling across the gaza border today, the first full day of the offensive, with a steady stream of heavy fire. The military said it hit at least 150 targets, including rocket launchers and tunnels that hamas militants use for crossborder raids, and for moving and storing weapons. The assault began overnight, hours after the israelis said they foiled an attempted cross border commando attack on a kibbutz using just such a tunnel. Today, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the operation is essential, and could expand. translated since it is impossible to deal with the tunnels only by aerial means, our troops are also dealing with it on the ground. Here as well, there are no guarantees for total success, but we will do the utmost to achieve the best result. My instructions to the i. D. F. , are to prepare for the possibility of significantly widening the ground operation, and the chief of staff and the military are prepared accordingly. Warner the israelis said they had met little resistance, so far. But the main gaza hospital said it was overwhelmed with casualties, including children. And a hamas spokesman insisted it will strike back. translated netanyahu is killing our children and he will pay the price. The Israeli Offensive does not fear the leaders in hamas or the Palestinian People and we in hamas guarantee that the Occupation Army will sink in the mud of gaza. Warner the militants did fire fresh rocket barrages into israel today, and the israelis answered with more air strikes. In washington, president obama voiced u. S. Support, for a limited operation. Our understanding as the current military ground operations are designed to deal with the tunnels and we are hopeful that israel will continue to approach this process in a way that minimizes civilian casualties and that all of us are working hard to return to the ceasefire that was reached in november of 2012. Warner immediate prospects of a longterm ceasefire seemed to dim. Still, on a visit to turkey, Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas said he hopes an egyptiandesigned truce remains possible. translated we hope this takes place soon so we can preserve palestinian blood. We want to bring a stop to this and to have an independent state like the rest of the world and the rest of the worlds citizens. Warner around the world, the Israeli Ground offensive prompted protests. Demonstrators turned out in bangladesh, jordan, south africa, venezuela and turkey. Woodruff and margaret joins me now. Youve been talking to all parties, youve been talking of course to americans to the israelis and people close to hamas. What do they believe Prime Minister netanyahu means when he says this could expand significantly this operation . Judy, as he said the first aim was to get after these tunnels and these arent just the tunnels going into israel these are the tunnels inside gaza they store weapons around. Once thats concluded, there is a list of other targets. A senior israeli official said remember Ground Forces can take many forms. We can introduce special forces for special targets mainly perhaps assassinating top officials. We could create no go zones in certain areas. We could do hit and run attacks on key installations. He did say the key for them is not to let the Isreal Defense become themselves a target and that means being very mobile and fluid and flexible. Woun woodruff what is hamas saying to this. Hamas, there hasnt been much resistance. People close to hamas says theyre sitting back trying to assess what the israelis are up to. Theyre saving their ammunitions stock piling a long time in anticipation of a major conflict. They dont know if say israels going to a major Population Center in a houseto house fighting. This person says i think theyre playing it day by day they dont really know what theyre going to do next but keep firing enough rockets into isreal until they think they can get a cease spire that can give them something more than they had going into this. Woodruff only israel side, the concerns they could end up getting sucked into an endless or many endless ground war. Yes there definitely are concerns and you hear voices. Remember Prime Minister netanyahu was under pressure from people saying he wasnt aggressive enough. Hes taken this action. Someone close to the Prime Minister said to me look i know my Prime Minister, hes very conscious of this he grew up in the United States during the vietnam area. He also mentioned the hezbollah war. On the other hand the senior official said, i said what if they keep firing rocket. Is he said now weve crossed that psychological line that barrier of introducing Ground Forces it could take many forms. I cant imagine the Prime Minister withdrawing some ground operation until the rocket firing stops. Woodruff before this happened, there were efforts to try to come up with a ceasefire. Where did all that stand. Really from everything i can find out today, judy, i mean there were great homes for these talks going on in cairo which we talked about the last couple days, there were predictions early as today. At this point there are some officials still there. Its pretty clear that israelis told me they concluded hu hamass on another planet. Hamas felt dissed by the israelis and egyptians in the way hamas doesnt get mentioned in the agreement if you look at the text. Theyre talking about all pan jy palestinian factions and they didnt get anything. Then abbas in turkey. Here you have the Prime Minister accusing israel of genocide. They think turkey is the locus of the deal. That said the americans working with turks and others very hard trying to get the views of hamas. Woodruff speaking of the americans, how do the americans see any influence they can have in bringing this to some sort of peaceful ending. Its interesting judy, first of all theyre sending a Double Barrel message you heard this from the president today. Of course they have a right to defend itself, rockets raining down on your citizens. But were supporting a limited operation and we want israel to be mindful of civilian sacial tease and im casualties and secretary kerry has told Prime Minister netanyahu look you are in danger of really losing european support if these civilian casualties approach anything such as 809, where 1400 palestinians were killed. Were just trying to get both sides to walk a fine line here but get as quickly as possible to a ceasefire before its out of hand. Secretary kerry said, he was talking as early as yesterday the fact he hasnt gone yet tells you they dont think the time is quite right. Woodruff mar Margaret Woodruff and to the analysis of shields and brooks. Thats syndicated columnist mark shields and New York Times columnist david brooks. Gentleman, no shortage of terrible news this week. Mark, lets start where we left off with margaret, the middle east. What is israels Ground Invasion into gaza . What does that do, do you think to hopes for any kind of resolution here. I think its a slippery slo just enlarging the military operation and military engagement because its not simply increasing the possibility as margaret mentioned of civilian casualties which already are approaching 300 dead civilians. Three quarters, 300 palestinians three quarters of whom are civilians and one quarter whom are children. And at the same time retaliation upon israel troops, shooting and firing them, trapping them or capturing them. So i think there is a problem of potential escalation here. Woodruff does this mean, david, the idea of any sort of resolution is just so far off in the distance. Well, yes. Were sort in a parallel universe where sort of the military operation weve not seen before. So hamas has had no success and in part of the so defensive because the rockets are not that great. But when the ceasefire proposal went out there, they agreed there were a barrage of missiles nonetheless not because they how many to put damage on israelis but they hold isreal lisa would would israelis would put damage on them and tell civilians not to flee. Its a rare moment where a party rejects a ceasefire more than getting their own people killed. Thats the gloabl strategy, propaganda strategy. I think the u. S. Has don a good job, john kerrys done a good job of the strategy of using any shields. Bill clinton has said things. This is the strategy theyre trying to enact and its this perverse military strategy. Woodruff its not a strategy theyre being open. Well, no, i mean, david, not disputing davids report or analysis on it, but you know, every war has its picture. When you get four kids between the age of 9 and 11 kicking a soccer ball on a beach outside the hotel where western journalists stay and western journalists will be playing with them shortly, killed by an isreallanisraeli, thats a huma. Theres no way you could identify them as potential terrorists or problems. So i think the concern expressed, humanitarian level as well as diplomatic level in my conversation, that israel could risk as they did in 2008, 2009 when they are 1400 palestinians killed and 13 israelis died. That really d cause support. The israel problem is they cant sit there while missiles are raining down in the country. Yes. But hamas situation was different this time than the previous situations in part because the palestinian population at least until this moment was much more negative. The Pure Research in gaza suggested 62 disapproved much less popular among the palestinian population. Hamas has been greeted with much more skepticism around the arab world than before. So theyre in a much much weaker position, much less effective governing agency than the past wars and thats both part of the chaos and part of the instigation. I agree hamas has been a failure at governing. But theres a more quicker way to overlook the shortcomings of any government when they have a civilian population under military attack. I mean, that is a unifying factor. Even behind bad leadership as hamas has demonstrated. Woodruff very quickly before we turn to ukraine, david or mark. Any clarity what the u. S. Could be doing here to help the situation . My view theyre doing the right thing which is obama and senator is focusing on putin. Putins strategy is sort of messianic fantasy nationalism which both rhetorically has ripped up this messianic nationalism and calmed these people. Thats the ultimate thing we can address. I dont think we can get the europeans to give more sanctions to put irc putin but i think the administration is focusing on putin. There isnt any question that putin is the heavy in this whole tragedy. And his failed attempts to try to shirk blame to the ukrainians, the tragedy, the cast pheocurrecatastrophe occurr ukrainian territory. And stabilize the Ukrainian Government, that was his attempt, i dont think he intended this international disaster. I just dont think that was on it. And i mean, its come home to reduce witruse withreducroostwi. As far as further sanctions judy, the french sold ships, the germans who have oil, you got the english or the british who welcome the dollars and those russian capitalists, euphemistic about it. Are they willing to inconvenience themselves and especially one third of the european oil and natural gas comes from russia. One half of it goes to ukraine. Woodruff david, when the president said this incident in ukraine, he said its a wake up call that the concept in ukraine is not going to be contained. What does that mean . I mean, what consequences are we talking about . I dont think you have to be a super historian to look at times in the past when people have fervor and they lost control. I agree with mark, he did set up this momentum and its sort of spinning out of control. If the europeans see that, then they really have to say even putin cant control it. So what do we do. So that does raise, i think it would raise alarms in paris, berlin, london and everywhere. I agree. Woodruff and in terms of the u. S. , having a role, is the u. S. A bystander. I thought the president today was quite measured in what he had to say. Ahead of the evidence, ahead of the facts. I think theres probably to some degree as a result of what happened after benghazi. That he let the strong it was but it was quite comfortable put the challenge directly to russia that they are challenging him not to in any way inhibit, impede the official International Investigation of what happened. Woodruff the president was more measured. We just heard that maybe putin will this is the problem and maybe he himself like he has in the past to be fair to him has scaled back, when the ukrainian war got super hot a couple months ago he pulled back a little. So hes capable of some regulation and maybe well see some of that. Woodruff mark and david stay here because were going to ask you another question in just a few moments. Be right back to you. Woodruff finally tonight, some domestic politics. A look at the intensifying clash between red and blue america. Few places reflect the growing political chasm in the u. S. As does the state of wisconsin, and in particular, metropolitan milwaukee, home to an engaged electorate and deep racial, social and economic divisions. Gwen traveled there this past week. 50 years ago we had that battle. Why are we having it again . Ifill lifelong milwaukee resident earl ingram lives on one side of the divide. Wisconsin has had a terrible history, like many other states in this country, of not being fair when it comes to people of color. Well, not just here, but across the nation, with the conservative reality that has come back. Ifill keith best, who left the city for the suburbs in his 30s, lives on the other. I saw jobs were leaving, i saw taxes were going up, and i saw the School System was failing, and thats why i moved out to waukesha. Ifill best and ingram are from the essentially the same place, battleground wisconsin, minutes away from one another in distance, but miles away in their politics. In milwaukees riverwest neighborhood, at an urban cafe named coffee makes you black, the topic was how to curb neighborhood violence. 30 children have been shot in the city this year. It takes politics. It takes churches. It takes every single resource that we have, not out in waukesha, not in menomonee falls, not in mequon, right here in milwaukee, wisconsin. Ifill by contrast, at republican congressman james sensenbrenners Community Town hall a few miles away, the hot topic was immigration. I believe it is not only a humanitarian crisis, but it is a National Security crisis. Ifill the audiences black and white, democrats and republicans, urban and suburban, reflect a sober truth, residents of metropolitan milwaukee. Once home to ticketsplitting independent thinkers, no longer view the world through the same lens. The city of milwaukee is majorityminority, 56 black and hispanic, but the minority population in the surrounding suburbs is somewhere in the single digits. And here in southeastern wisconsin it goes way beyond race, to social segregation, economics, and party identification. Milwaukees suburbs are redder than almost anywhere else outside the south. Ifill craig gilbert, who tracked wisconsins growing polarization in a fourpart series for the milwaukee journal sentinel, said the split widened in 2012. Thats when an effort to recall republican Governor Scott walker drove record partisan turnout in the blue cities of milwaukee and madison, as well as in the red suburbs clustered around both. Hes just so divisive i mean its just all about how you feel about how hes governed this state over the past three or four years and every piece of evidence we have is that its almost right down the middle. Ifill one example republicans give walker 91 approval rating. Among democrats, president obama gets 93 . All you have to do is look at a map and you can see voting results, just how widespread the differences are, and milwaukee, the city of milwaukee a deep, deep blue. You get the outlying areas of milwaukee and you cant get much redder. Ifill milwaukee mayor Thomas Barrett has slammed headlong into that partisan wall, running unsuccessfully for governor three times, the last time on the losing end of the effort to recall republican Governor Scott walker. Polarization, he believes, has been driven by the strength of conservative talk radio. I think its horrific economically. Ifill why . To have that much of a schism. I think its bad in terms of race relations. I think its bad for growth for the region. Because i think if youve got an area thats pitted against each other youre not trying to find the similarities, not trying to find the commonalties that would allow you to work together, and its very unfortunate. Ifill the divide is deep and enduring. Carmen murguia is a poet who was born on the citys south side. We dont talk to each other, we, at least from what ive seen, we keep ourselves separate because we dont think were going to be listened to or understood, or even come to a happy medium at least. Ifill sally kabacinski also grew up in milwaukee but now lives in nearby wauwatosa, scott walkers hometown. I dont understand liberalism. Believe it or not i was a democrat, my family was a democrat, ifill what changed . Their liberalism. Ifill republican Lieutenant Governor Rebecca Kleefisch says wisconsinites are merely voting with their feet. Wisconsin is really no different from the rest of the country. As Population Trends have evolved over time, so have political trends, and so folks are looking for candidates, leaders, representatives, who speak to their wants and needs regardless of geography. Ifill walkers move to roll back union protections for public workers, she said, actually helped. Ifill did that leave the state divided . Because democrats overwhelmingly wanted to recall the governor; republicans overwhelmingly did not. You noticed that too. Ifill i did notice. The whole country noticed that. I dont think it left the state divided, frankly i think it left the state in a stronger position than she was in even before. Ifill try telling that to keith schmitz. He spent part of his weekend campaigning for democrat mary burke, who is challenging walker this fall. The thing about progress in any state is when you divide, you cant multiply, and things have been rather divisive in this state. Ifill as walkers National Star has continued to rise, republicans are eyeing him as a likely president ial candidate. Governor walker has sort of been making the argument to republicans that you can be a very sort of staunch conservative and still succeed politically ifill or survive anyway . Or survive anyway in a battleground state and well see if that happens. Ifill with 18 terms in congress, sensenbrenner has survived. If you go fishing where the fish are, and the republicans were turning the votes out in the suburbs, and the democrats were turning the votes out in the city, and no Political Party is going to turn the other way, ifill fiveterm democratic congresswoman moore says the lines have hardened over time, as republicans deny City Residents funding for amenities like public transit. Its not like your ward captain walks up and down the street and says you need to stay in line, and vote as a democrat, but i think that when you dont have the opportunity, you know, like were here in the public market, to gather and there be some sort of public forum for exchanging ideas, that it is a lot easier for people to corral you into one type of thinking. Ifill sheldon wasserman, a former state assemblyman, describes himself as a moderate democrat. He tripped into this political chasm in 2008 when he decided to expand his reach and run for state senate. The bigger district, which stretched across the divide, exposed him to a whole new world. I represented a district that was educated, progressive, and republican, and democratic, but more republican, and i thought i knew what republicans were all about, i thought i knew what democrats were all about. Ifill he lost his race to the republican incumbent by one point. Ifill in this environment, both sides admit there is little incentive to find middle ground. I dont know what its going to take to get compromise again because of the polarization, its just a tough situation. One side is going to be proven right, and one side is going to be proven wrong, and i dont know how thats going to end up. Ifill is that a healthy fight . Good question, i cant answer that, i wish i could. Ifill but, with a gubernatorial and president ial race on the horizon, this fractured Political Landscape in wisconsin and in washington could determine outcomes for years to come. Woodruff and we turn again to mark shields and david brooks. Mark, how typical is this divide that gwen is showing us in wisconsin and the rest of the country. Its true typical and just congratulate gwen on that piece. It was pointed out that in 1994, just 20 years ago, tommy thompson, the republican governor carried milwaukee and herb kohl, the democratic senator carried the county. There was a time when 40 of wisconsin voted, that is no longer the case and you had basically in the chain to wisconsin that gwen was describing, its army politics. In other words, were not persuading anybody from the other side reaching around finding Common Ground with them. Were just mobilizing our troops, thats what were about doing. 65 or 70 as Tom E Thompson did to 51. Woodruff what changed in 20 years, what happened. Thats a good question. Theres a debate, there is the polarization of washington phenomena and washington phenomena. There were people watching fox and all the lobbyists and all the money people. Its now pretty clear its a National Formula and its much more bottom up than it used to be than top down. Maybe the top down polarized the bottom but people and the ethological lines are hardening for a whole bunch of reasons. What really is struck is scarcity. Remember why walker became nationally famous because of the fights. As resources begin to begin cull some of the rights get more polarized whether a lot of City Services or state pensions or not and different populations that live in different areas have reactions to that scarcity problem on top of the idea lodgization thats going on. Woodruff so youre saying its post financial collapse and recession. I think thats part of it. Theres the irony more of the education population more polarized it gets. The country gets more educated and also more ide ideological. Woodruff we can point to colleges. It goes back to the campuses and parking spaces. But the campaign is not about persuasion. I have this in common even though we dont belong to the same party. Thats a real difference. So you end up only talking to your own people telling them how good we are and how virtuous and how terrible the other side is and how threatening they are. Woodruff youre saying because people already made up their minds and dont want to hear anything else. Its a selfreinforcement phenomena i only talk to other people on the other side. If you have two polarized options you are polarized and thats whats happening. Woodruff well talk the photography Refrigerator Company of shields and brooks. Thank you mark and david. Thank you. Woodruff and thats the newshour for tonight. A reminder gwen will be back for Washington Week later this evening, and Hari Sreenivasan will have the latest developments on the downed plane and the mideast on the pbs newshour weekend. And well be back, right here, on monday with the latest medal of honor recipient, ryan pitts. Who demonstrated valor in one of the most investigated incidents of the afghan war. Thats the newshour for tonight. Im judy woodruff, have a great weekend. Thank you and good night. Major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by Carnegie Corporation of new york. Supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement, and the advancement of International Peace and security. At carnegie. Org. And with the ongoing support of these institutions and friends of the newshour. This program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. And by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. Thank you. Captioning sponsored by Macneil Lehrer productions captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. Org is bbc world news america. Funding of this presentation is made possible by the freeman foundation, newmans own foundation, giving all profits to charity and pursuing the common good for 30 years, kobler foundation and Charles Schwab to my and union bank. Union bank, our relationship managers work hard to understand the industry you operate in, working to nurture new ventures and help provide capital for key to strict key strategic decisions. We offer expertise and solutions in a wide range of industries. What can we do for you