And to assure them that he is Ok but 29 year old who'd been studying in Pyongyang left North Korea yesterday after negotiations by the Swedish embassy brought his detention to an end he's traveled to Japan where he's been reunited with his wife the statement doesn't address why he was arrested by the North Korean authorities or whether he intends to return to the country archaeologists in Sweden have found the skeleton of a horse along with remains of a man and his dog inside 2 Viking ships that in the grounds of the church details of the find were released following excavation work last month researches also honest mediæval weaponry including a sawed spear and shield as well as a large comb such burial sites extremely rare as the latest b.b.c. News. Many thanks for the latest hello and welcome to News they Shaima and Carney with you this morning we are in Sudan in just a moment to getting reaction to that historic agreement after months of protests and violence straightaway surges they have had never visit rewinding patients investing paralysis and missing children in China being separated from their families remember you can text us on anything you hear the numbers possible 477-862-8508 extension 5. We start in Sudan on a historic day a few hours ago the transitional military council in a coalition of opposition and protest groups called the forces of freedom and change have finally reached a power sharing deal it's what millions in the nation have been hoping for but in the past few weeks with the heavy military crackdown and loss of life that seemed impossible while the news has apparently been met with celebrations in the streets of Khartoum Sunday had seen major protests across the country overnight this has turned to joyous gatherings the deal was between the military council and the civilian sidique Yousif the veteran politician was one of the main negotiators for the civilian So what exactly has been a great we decided now about how to formulate the Governing Council in the arcade format from there remember why members of the recovery council awful lot reappointed Iraq I'm quite reappointed by my off. True government change. Hands were tied to cordial that the integrator. Half of the future headed by the military man and how the 2nd half run on how to fly for Syria on the part foreign countries who were decided upon our group of 4 foreign to from the military council to from us to write that agreement or nah. What legal rights and. We didn't want to count that is to read including And after that we decide according to day to sign their agreement and we are going to decide on the same day popcorns of having County and their prime minister and 2 to 5 percent of your religion count that's an apology for more on the deal I've been speaking to said an ex-pat cinnamon Belden who's based in the United States take a listen I believe it's disappointing but I'm also realistic enough to realize this is the best deal that the coalition freedom again coalition could have a dent under the circumstance and understand all this skepticism and the distress that is felt by many in seeing the details of what has been agreed on disappointing why because there was an insistence on a sphere of power to civilians this is why the Sudanese population went into a nation like a cries for months is now since mid. December 28th 18 that's why the Sudanese population has undergone a 2nd Feis many people to achieve the objectives of freedom peace and justice for themselves and their. Own and the military has tried to steal that uprising and peoples of by imposing themselves of the defacto government to the day now. They are with the mysteries of basically Ok so now we see the 2 sides agreeing to rotate control of the sovereign Council and compromise though had to be reached exactly and the membership of the presidency or chairmanship of the. Consul wouldn't be that important. If it's not clearly agreed what they would as a mandate of the sovereign Council is the intention from the start was to have it as you know we soon balik. The presentation and that was the militantly clearly want to preserve so that you know to preserve the status that of Dand and the 1st years of president she was she's gotten a little money from the cabinet was that it got to the management of the financial resources to shoestring national resources contract and they that the control from the previous regime also the autonomy of that have to support forces is key to this 2nd man and the strong man in the military council however the fish of the streets has for the Military Council to give one out of court systems and we will see have the power play with it you know play itself out in the coming weeks and months is and we're looking at that you know the pressure on the streets as you put it and this surely showed the unresolved of the Sudanese protest overall and in the end and a slight victory at least can be claimed this is the correct reading that the Sudanese people have simply demonstrated that the country will continue to be ungoverned ungovernable if they don't get their weight loss to see a foreigner controlled by civilian authority they don't want to see you know the community and the minute front of them decently that has presided over the counter for the last 50 years or the disaster of Spitzer and therefore this is the missing result but it's a stupid action of deceiving me and ruin it into a government that is accountable to the people and now that you have to stood there however I don't think that the you know all of the people of Sudan who would accept . I think short. People sedan x. But a sentiment about over now to a remarkable medical development more than a dozen completely paralyzed adults in Australia can now write feed themselves and even drink thanks to a new surgical technique called nerve transfer Dr Natasha found veil of Austin health in Melbourne left the research and told me 1st of all the patients involved they all had more or less the same level of paralysis head injury in the neck from about the c. 5 level to see 7 levels of in the in the mid neck area and that for those people that means that you have some ability to move your shoulder and a danger elbow but nobility to strengthen your elbow usual hand at all so the big news of course is of this new technique called nerve transfer tell us more about that and what does the surgery involve 1st you say that nerve transfer isn't a new technique itself but it's relatively new in this population and this study is just a is a big group looking very comprehensively at how nerve transfers work in spinal cord injury and we found that they very successful So what basically happens is a nerve that is functioning and is and is attached to a muscle that is intact is cut and that nerved is transferred to a muscle which is paralyzed while the 1st nerve is taken from a muscle which is expendable there are other muscles doing the same function so they don't lose that function but that power supply to light his plugged in to the new to the paralyzed and then the nerve fibers from the 1st grow down the paralyze nerve and hit the muscle and basically reactivate it so technically giving life this area that was otherwise been dead before that absolutely so for no hand function to being able to open and close your hand pick up things brush your hair brush your teeth hold a fork. Dr Wright. All of the things that we're doing all the time in their early thinking about it's quite remarkable that for no movement you know your patients are able to do that how long after the surgery were they able to regain these functions so it depends on which nerve transfer you use but somewhere between 3 and 9 months after the surgery start to see a flicker of movement in the muscle that's being reactivated and then it takes about another year from that point for the muscle to really reach its full strength and can this be applied for other parts of the body because if if someone is paralyzed from the neck down they're now able to move their hands and they kind of pick up stuff brush their hair can this be applied to the legs to feet as well only if there are muscles in the leg that are working and that you can take from them without damaging those functions you wouldn't be able to do that in someone who is completely and in someone who is paraplegic you have an incomplete injury or had a new injury and in the leg you can certainly take in the same way you can take notes from a working muscle and transplant them into a muscle that is paralyzed and just Dr Banfield what does that mean to you being able to to have these successful operations and have people actually move now well I mean it's just you know I have the best job in the world because I get to sit in the clinic and see patients that I haven't seen for a while come back after this surgery and I see them moving their hands and I get to talk to them about the kinds of things that they're doing and you know it's an absolute thrill to hear that. Stopping through for me absolute thrill and a remarkable achievement there that was a doctor Natasha found sale of Austin health in Melbourne leading that research with that technique called nerve transfer that an able to completely paralyzed actually move their hands your list. Needs a from the b.b.c. With uncanny shop the main headlines this half hour Sudan's ruling generals and protest leaders have agreed to form a chance a tional government straining sedges have you as you've been hearing have that pioneered an operations which they say enables paralyzed patients to move their hands and a b.b.c. Investigation has found that China has separated hundreds of Muslim we get children from their families that story still to come here on News Day Let's get the sports news now with Matthew on Rafael Nadal against Nick Kerry also has the most in throwing match at Wimbledon on Thursday a match up one by natal in full really tight sets and tight at incredible intensity Curiosity's character always comes into his matches doesn't it but from a British number one on b.b.c. Commentator Gregor's ascii told me it was curiosity tennis which brought out the best in the dough Well exactly so we knew this was going to be a tasty matchup it's the one we've been talking about from the start of the championships and we've never seen a Rafa so motivated for 2nd round match at Wimbledon because they had had 3 apiece there was a little bit of trash talking before the start of the match as well about both guys not being intimate with each other and the tennis quality was super to be quite honest and Nick you never know what you're going to get out there with them you know underarm serves complaining the chair umpire so he's a difficult player to play but I think overall Nick behaved himself pretty well considering how he behaved the queen's this past past month Yeah show we did have some of those indulgences if you like but in the end it was a fantastic match up and the kind of test you would think Nadal actually quite appreciates early on in this championships Well exactly so because he really had to hit a high level early on as he said after the end of the match you know I had to really focus at to really concentrate I had one lapse in the 2nd set Nick took advantage and then he was delighted with the way he played those 2 final set tie breakers to come through in 4 sets and you know the electricity in the stadium. Everybody just really enjoyed the match and was. Impressive from the Da was how well he played those tiebreakers how well he served how well he played so he is a big threat but his draw doesn't get any easier because he plays Joe Wilford song in the next round so another big serving Frenchman but that was the match of the day bar far yeah Wilford song for an adult things are not necessarily quite sure tough for the men's defending champion Novak Djokovic she returns to court later on today his side of the duel I mean he's going to win these matches but there's a lot less serious challenges in that well a lot of the big names fall fallen out of the top section like city passons Vera and guys like that but her catch who is playing today the Polish players are actually quite tricky I mean I expect jock itch to come through in 3 or 4 sets but as you say the top half looks a little bit easier Nadal's got the roughest section Federer is down there below as well so if you think about it overall jockey of it right now has the best draw he's got to be the slight favorite in the championships but it's probably one of the big through he's going to come through and win this event and apart from Djokovic chyna doll who in the men's side of things has really impressed you so well I think Federer has been pretty comfortable as well I think for me Dalin jockey which because the court surface is so slow it seems slower than last year it just gives him a little bit more time on the ball and that makes a difference that I've been impressed with is actually Kevin Anderson because we didn't know where he was going to be he's actually served pretty well he's had a little bit of an elbow and shoulder problem and to come back into the championships when he got into the finals and and to play as well as he's played so far considering he's played very few matches has been pretty impressive from that point of up against great I pile and nature later on today do you expect to see Anderson late in the 2nd week I expect him to come through it depends how healthy is depends how is albums feeling but you know the nice thing about slams is you get a day off in between every match and on top of that when the weather is warm it's a lot easier on your body that's Gregor's that ski at Wimbledon this morning Novak Djokovic and Kevin Anderson amongst those in action later in the men's singles and also 15 year. Old Cari go off against Slovenia's Polonia Hertzog in the women's singles their last stop on Center Court you heard on King Arthur Vaughan at Wimbledon this time yesterday telling us he thinks that Corey golf is the favorite for that match keep you posted on her and all the rest of the news from Wimbledon sport today at 830 g.m.t. Loads more to look forward to today Pakistan need to beat Bangladesh by a massive 316 runs if they're to overtake New Zealand than in the race for the last spot in the semifinals at the Cricket World Cup that's because of the mathematics of the whole thing even if you're not a cricket fan I think you get the impression the vote is a very close to impossible task and it's the start of the knockout stages at the Africa Cup of Nations focus on Africa will have all the buildup on a live news Morocco against by name and Uganda up against Senegal Meanwhile most of the host nation Egypt are currently concerned with Muhammad solace cold the pharaoh's a few to play South Africa tomorrow but he's been rested from training China's not environmental. Oranges I know it's not the season but hey Matthew Many thanks business news now in India's Finance Minister has been outlining new tax and spending measures to boost growth and reduce unemployment which has hit a 45 year high last year souping Chang joins us from the business desk what's been announced yet so Prime Minister Narendra Modi's landslide victory in the mail action has given the party a huge mandate to try to reinvigorate the economy around 30000000 Indians are currently looking for work in the country and Finance Minister No Melissa to Rahman she's actually still speaking has been going signing up for the best part of 2 hours and out saying measures to tell us more subpoenaed the president of the just Jobs Network she's taken a break from watching the but marathon speech just had a small Sabina any eye catching measures so far. Well I have to say sir that much of what we're hearing is what everybody expected infrastructure spending tax breaks for small and medium enterprises making India more friendly to foreign investments reviews of the tariff structures all of that is very much what we expected and sort of been the track that the government was on in its previous term as well but the emphatic emphasis on women was something that was new in this budget and something that definitely caught my eye and there needs to be a lot more substance there on how we are going to improve labor force participation of women economic and social empowerment of women in this country and but but but at least there was an emphatic emphasis on women in this budget speech which was promising was specifically on women getting more women into what. Yes exactly Well we've seen that India has you know less than one in 4 women are actually in the labor force and went women do enter the labor force they tend to be relegated to low value added poor quality low productivity low wage jobs so there's a lot that needs to be done to bring women into the labor force and then to allow them the support that they need to actually move up the ladder in workplaces and in the world to fork and using the measure is a now is will be enough to boost growth and do exactly that to get more people working Well I think it in an overall sense this budget continues to emphasize the focus on growth growth is important for jobs it is a necessary condition for jobs but it's not a sufficient condition the composition of growth matters whether investment is actually labor intensive in a way that actually generates jobs is important so it's not enough to say we need our economy to grow we actually need to think about where does that growth come from what is the quality of growth is it coming from labor intensive investments where we are creating jobs or not and that's fundamentally important to be No one president of the just Jobs Network thank you. So many thanks now let's return to one of our top stories here at the b.b.c. The corporation has uncovered new evidence that children in China's Cian Jang every Jinn are being systematically separated from their families and placed in secure state schools official documents reveal that launch numbers of boarding schools have been built housing children as young as 2 critics of China's government claim it's an orchestrated program to isolate the children from their midst and communities the children are members of China's minority leader Muslim community in change young more than a 1000000 we're adults are detained there in a vast network of reeducation camps which the Chinese authorities insist are schools for combating violence and religious extremism Now some parents speaking in exile have told the b.b.c. Their children have disappeared and his 3rd special reports on the situation Ching Jang Here's our China correspondent John some sort stronger Liz's like thousands of we go as Muslims from China's western region of Shin Jang Abdurrahman Toti now lives in Turkey 3 years ago his wife and their children took a short trip back home to see the grandparents he's heard nothing from them since they describe what he's saying. Then earlier this year he found a video online to go out of the exam to put on my kid did nothing but cry when I saw my son for the 1st time in 3 years. What else could I do. She said he searched and it's his 4 year old son Abdul Aziz in an orphanage speaking not in week his mother tongue but in Chinese. I'm shouting Patry ATSIC military style says to questions about the Chinese flag of the Chinese government on the far left of the goal is to make them haunt Chinese and them to take away their identity. My child has now been in Chinese hands for 3 years was. Was after Armin's wife he believes has been swept into the vast network of highly secure facilities that China has been building right across shin Jang. You know where we go is the Catholics and other Muslim groups who all have their own distinct languages and culture of being taught to learn Chinese and to love the Communist Party and now we have new evidence of what's happening to their children so I was standing outside the kindness kindergarten in hot and and at 1st glance you have to say it's the most unusual can be gotten you're probably likely to see their rolls of barbed wire along the tops of the walls the place is for students with security cameras and this is one of the places we believe that may be holding the children of the people who are being held in mass reeducation. He says sad eyes and the campus police speak Mandarin on the little orange poster. With a sign on the front door instructs people entering to speak Chinese. Some people would suggest that that is evidence that lends itself to the idea that the whole policy being enacted here in shit is designed to repress weaker identity we go language or we could culture. One of those people is Dr Adrian's adds an independent academic based in Germany in research commissioned by the b.b.c. He found Chinese government documents online that suggest there's now a deliberate policy to separate children from their roots. And government is attempting to gain full control over the young generation to literally raise a new generation that has been cut off from religious beliefs from cultural knowledge even from the own language so I belief the evidence really points what we must call cultural genocide that was the 3rd special reports on the situation in. China Correspondent John Sudworth and the children being separated from their Muslim families a lot more online b.b.c. Dot com forward slash news if you go to our Asia page there is an extensive piece by John including a video quite a remarkable video there of him speaking to those families but definitely definitely recommended reading and watching for you that's it from me and Carney here on News Day Stay with the b.b.c. World Service it's us saying goodbye have a great weekend. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the u.s. Is made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from Forex dot com empowering traders to seize opportunities in currency markets since 1999 Forex dot com It's your world trading for x. Trading involves significant risk of loss. If you need to get rid of a car van truck motorcycle r.v. Or yacht we can help will come over to pick it up and you are all running or not and deal with the paper once your car van truck motorcycle r.v. Or yacht has been sold the proceeds go to k. P.c.c. In your name we use the money from your car van truck motorcycle r.v. Or yacht to support trustworthy news an independent program so go to k p c c dot org slash cars to donate your well you know. When is a bug not a bug Whoa whoa whoa whoa. It said some over here I'll let you know if it stays like very good or I'll be the decider of that thank you so much. On the food chain in a few minutes find out what the meat industry and plant based food produces are at wool over Woods and what it might mean for the consumer that here on the b.b.c. World service to the news. B.b.c. News with Debbie Ross crowds who celebrations in the streets of the Sudanese capital Khartoum after the ruling military council and opposition alliance struck a power sharing deal to form the transitional government the Accord comes off 2 weeks of intense African mediation following the brutal suppression of mass protests a month ago and also be an independent investigation into the recent violence. The b.b.c. Has uncovered a new evidence that Muslim children in China's Shinji and region are being separated from their families official documents reveal large numbers of boarding schools have been built the Chinese government denies separating children from their parents. The Malaysian court has charged the stepson of the former prime minister Najib Razak with laundering money linked to the state fund one m d be reason as this Hollywood producer behind the Oscar nominated film The Wolf of Wall Street was charged with misappropriating nearly $250000000.00 He pleaded not guilty an Australian student released from detention in North Korea says he just wants to return to normal life in a statement Alex Siggy said he wanted to thank people for their concern and support over the last week the Indian finance minister Nam Alessi tarmon is presenting her 1st budget in Parliament she says the government ams to make India a 5 trillion dollar economy by 2025 she's announced a slew of measures from building social infrastructure to space and environmental programs a Virgin Atlantic flight from New York to London has made an emergency landing in Boston after smoke appeared in the aircraft's cabin the authority said a device consistent in appearance to a phone charger had ignited archaeologist in Sweden have found the skeleton of a horse along with remains of a man and his dog inside 2 Viking ships buried in the grounds of a church such burial sites are extremely rare b.b.c. News. Hello and welcome to the food chain with me Manuela. Not a sausage silly question but the meat industry and some politicians don't think. They argue words like steak sausage ribs can only be used to describe foods that come from an animal alternative plant based products they all should come up with their own names signs are the meat industry is winning this argument last year the u.s. State of Missouri than the word meat from the meat products in the same year France changed its nose to prevent product labels like that stubble steak or so we sausage and it's not just meat free products that are being targeted in 2017 the European Court of Justice ruled that plant based foods cannot be sold to using terms like milk butter or cheese so does all this matter what's in our name after all and can you really claim ownership of a word. That's what we're discussing in this episode so let me introduce our panelists the Limbaugh is the c.e.o. Of the there are a veggie and the can food company based in the Netherlands Jess Peterson is a senior policy adviser at the u.s. Cattlemen's Association a trade association and lobbying group that advocates for the interests of American beef farmers and carry Guillen is a linguistics expert formerly a professor at Arizona State University but these days she's a co-founder of quick brown fox consulting and also a co-host of vocal fries a podcast about linguistic discrimination and I want to come to you 1st in the u. There's a proposal at the moment to ban veggie envy can products from using names more commonly used to describe meat one of your vegetable products and. Several of your vegetables products are labeled with words like burger and other what is called a schnitzel or words commonly associated with meat so what do you go to do and what do you go to cool them if the e.u. Goes ahead with this plan I'm a very optimistic person and I'm pretty convinced that this law be dissed movement will not go in the direction of not allowing the use of these names you've mentioned that we're using names like burger schnitzel and that it's only partly true we always use the name in combination with a prefix like veggie or vegan so the combination is something that works for consumers to our opinion Ok you say you are optimistic that this will go ahead but in 2017 as I mentioned earlier the European Court of Justice did rule that you can't say things like soya milk you have to call it a soya drink so already there's a precedent against your industry Yeah I think you're right there are precedents and I think there's also a strong societal development towards plant based and I think those interests are represented by different politicians and lawmakers so I'm pretty convinced those are not Europe wide or us wide or world wide developments but incidents which will give our country learnings to avoid those mistakes but do you sell in France yes we do sell in France how do you get round the issue that because there they've banned things like that it will say course we saw CIJ Yeah well there. We will always abide the law and we will have to make those modifications it's a transition phase in France so there's still a lot of products which have me to combined with veggie in the name but we also have products which we call the Seeburg or instead of a fish burger. Seeburg Ok that's quite inventive does it matter do you have any evidence that changing a name that way facts whether or not the product sells Well I think it is of what a very wide range of people that make the choice to eat plant based some of them are. Some of them are meat reduces I would like to try both some are people that are in in a phase where they are trying to convert from meat to more plant based 100 percent plant based it's very difficult to measure but we have a very strong indication from consumer research that having names which are recognizable for them with the habits they have or other members of their family have makes it just so much easier for them to make that choice and make the switch so it's familiarities Nativity Yes it's familiarity and habit and these are important to be able to sell your product well the category and the products with pride are called meat substitute products we're not preaching we're not making the choice for the consumer but we're allowing the consumers to make a choice for me to replacement would you consider changing the names of your products to things like a vegetarian Tube for sausage or a vegetarian disc for a burger sounds very unappealing and I think it's not helping us in the conversion which we strongly believe worldwide is very needed towards more plant based menu Jess Peterson of the u.s. Cattlemen's Association explain to our listeners why you think a company like the devil that is the Vera shouldn't be using words like sausage or burger in labeling of these products so we've been eating meat for thousands of years and it's just in the recent 65 years we've been building a relationship with our consumer that's based on trust and transparency in addition to that. We're constantly striving to maintain high levels and actually enhance our production environmental standards food safety protocols taste and quality so when a food safety issue comes up whether it's mad cow disease or coal live work or Hans and Lee making sure that the consumer is taking care of we follow food safety guidelines they know that what we're doing is environmentally promoted and they know that it's going to taste extremely well all of that is tied to the names beef hamburger steak and so by placing these other products out there there's a confusion but do you have actual evidence that it creates confusion in the conceivably is as a consumer myself I find the term vegetarian sausage very old this I struggle to understand why that would create confusion amongst anyone else I can't speak for a plant based producer of a Petri dish protein I can't speak to their production I can't speak to their safety it's like the last 60 Minutes has been their claim to fame and rush their products to the market without a lot of transparency but if 5 years from now or 5 months from now there's a problem with sausage and that is known worldwide What's the recall like is it tied to again the word that we all know that consumers know trusted traditionally produced meat or is it plant based all of a sudden we don't know so when we start using these words out of line and out of sync it creates confusion the consumer and can lead to even greater problems down the line if I may jump in the 1st point of traceability and I think that's valid for Vera but for many food companies is very clear if there's a problem with a vegetarian or vegan burger or a sausage it's very clear where to. Find a source all of the ingredients and where it has been manufactured related to misleading if ever a consumer would be misled that vegan sausage is actually made of meat this is a very unlikely event to happen I believe again we've seen such a rush and we think this rush is tied to the immense amount of venture capital being raised so each month they're responding to their investors saying is your product getting to market and were you out where you're selling it and it's just me just clarify you when you say rushed Maki mean of plant based alternatives correct so we're pushing pausing wait we need to look at the overall regulatory side you reference it earlier in the United States there's a ban on the word meet someone asked Do you want to trademark the word meat no we don't want to trademark it but it's being used wrongly it's a truth in labeling so we need to push pause we need to understand the safety ramifications we need to know more about how these products are developed and we're not seeing it Mary respond to the word rush we actually started this business in 1990 so we're close to 30 years in the trade think we have shown that we're acting responsible and consumers are understanding very well what's going on and you're right there is a dynamic starting which is fueled by the interest of consumers for sustainability they're feeding off responsibility ever improved products which are tasting better and the gap if there is a gap between our vegetarian products with meat products has narrowed very much so I think it's clear there's a heritage already of close to 30 years it is a strong willed consumers to make the transition and they have hurdles to overcome to break habits in terms of previous usage so this is a great opportunity to allow people to make that choice it's their own choice they choose vegan or they choose animal based just well so I appreciate where that. Gentleman is coming from with regard to what his company is doing but not all the other companies are playing like that they're not playing above board they're rushing this to the market they're changing some words we've had our own federal regulators push back on these petri dish proteins for misrepresenting their product and again if something goes wrong we're the 1st ones to get brought forward find textured lean beef was blasted all over the place is pink slime we had to step forward talk about what we were doing talk about the safety side of it and add another level of again I keep going back to transparency so we're really at the infancy stage of how these companies again are communicating with the consumer and we take that very seriously I think in older lines of business this purity in those examples of pure approach I'm thinking back of some scandals we have had with horsemeat being sold as as cow meat horsemeat was basically posing as beef when it wasn't beef and I would say that both in plant based industry and in meat based industry does very good examples in being on the stem and pure and this examples of not being so pure just I mean there will be people listening who say it's not really about how this is about the market Shefa meat being eaten into. So 1st off if you're a vegetarian we completely understand your decision your choice we're hoping that some day you'll just miss that pure natural taste of the best lean iron based food you can get with some steak or the sizzle of a tried and true burger and you'll start coming back to us but in any case if you're a vegetarian that's fine if you walk into a grocery store there should be certain aisles that says non animal based products you should have the right to shop there consumer rules say so you don't believe that these products should be sold alongside meat and I don't either and you know that because if someone buys that product and they see it it says some type of steak or beef product hamburger and they bring that product home they grill it up and they start looking around and all of a sudden as they dig through the a green cigar wait this is not even traditionally produced meat but the price point was there the environmental standard they're claiming is there I think we like it so from that perspective they've deceptively used a meat counter that we've built a relationship for 60 plus years you know we we sell millions of packs of vegetarian burgers and sausage and other meat replacements throughout Europe we've never received complaints from people who have bought our products and never thinking it was meat honestly if they would complain we would probably send them our Fool range of products and allow them to taste then take their decision what they like better and I'm pretty sure that people understand what is the actual meaning of the product with the actual content as long as you clearly mark that it's not just beef burger a burger but it is plant based Vigen etc I still am baffled by the fact there is so much innovation in these plant based cell based products yet the lack in innovation and marketing is just just mind numbing to me and I'll just I'll leave I'll leave my point out but for the more yes that meat counter there are things that happen that we directly take responsibility for we as a production. Industry have to make changes everything from what's happening on the farm or ranch in the feed situation at the processing facility everything has to be addressed to get that product to that meat counter so to have anything being thrown in there just as well we're going to put a label on it call it meat and it's in the meat counter it just baffles me I don't think listeners would be on board with saying you're now leave in the meat aisle it's going into the mystery aisle it's been the meat aisle for 60 years now it's become the meat mystery aisle for who has food safety recall Zz we don't know the effects of these agreed against We don't know the long term results you know we're we're talking about does meat cause cancer so there's always this debate going back and forth we know that it does I mean everything causes cancer when you get down to it but when you look at safety proportion or healthy proportions of meat that doesn't cause cancer so healthy party lifestyle So we're cautiously making these interactions as there is confusion with the public so now we're saying Ok Are all these products in plant based Is that right for every diet again it's a mystery I'll versus a meat aisle there's a lot of research a lot of relationship that goes into it and we stand very serious that relation with consumers carry Gillan even quiet. Tell me why does it surprise you to see this much Ogmund over what is something we say every day meat sausage Berga No not at all in fact there are people who argue about the meaning of the word sandwich and the talk with them which So I'm not surprised at all that people want to fight over what the meaning of words are but what do you make of this particular discussion I mean is meat something I mean obviously I refer to you got Jesse called trademark it put it that way right so can you have a segment of the economy of a population basically claim ownership of a wood. So as. Linguist I would say it's a bad idea to try to do that words mean what a community think that means and so yes generally speaking if you say the word meet people understand that to mean flesh of an animal but it didn't always used to mean that in fact it used to be the cover word for all food and you had to say flesh meat to refer to meet Well now is this how long ago we talking here so it's a long time ago so 1300 ish is when it's switched to mean only flesh of an animal so the words can change meaning over time and I think foolish for us to try to nail words down to mean only one thing and also when it comes to something like the word meat it's not like the companies are saying hey this is the burger they're saying chick be burger black bean burger they're giving you some sort of information about what kind of burger it is so I don't think it's confusing at all and in fact actually in the 1940 s. In order to sort of force the fact that most burgers I mean out of beef there was this use of the word beef burger to contrast it with any other kind of burger just you except that I mean that there was a time when you would say beef he would just say but if I think some people still do refer to yes I guess even that phrase a different type of burger so it's pea with Burger Ok so does that mean there's hamburger there at all or are there any other gradients I guess I would turn to the rest of us and since we're talking from a linguistic perspective an approach that imitation crab is the only real crab an imitation crab Can we just sort of top 4 heads would walk to the dairy counter what makes Allman what we'd say water what's been called all men milk How did that become that So at what point do we take kind of a greater ease those of ethics to say Wait why are we trying to use these words as we mentioned there's a bit of an evolution but to keep in mind we've said before. Burger we were really driving home the point that's that's what it is and there is an actual product tied to it now we're saying something that's not even traditionally waked to a description we're making up new definitions all to market it to the consumer so if you had your own product what we can't understand is if you're so proud of what your food tastes like come up with a name don't just grab bars and say we know burgers taste good that's why we'd like to mismatch one of our own Ok let's take that would what's the origin and hope it would carry and so from Hamburg. Hamburger a person who lives in Hamburg. So it has nothing to do with meat in the 1st place originally No I mean words do change their meaning over time and I don't want to get too trapped in the Adam logical fallacy but yeah traditionally it doesn't have anything to do with meat all this some would you think should only as of the with meat for example steak. I hesitate to say that there is never a hard and fast line when it comes to the meaning of words because a community decides what they mean steak does have a closer tie to the meaning of meat because it has to do with a particular cut of meat and Ham also refers to a particular kind of pig however I'm not tied to any one word having the exact same with meaning of over time so perhaps just maybe some woods are you know you'll and some woods aren't. Again it goes back to a relationship with the consumer as we mentioned the members have been very helpful and from Hamburg in it with the marketing it build that relationship for instance the phrase beef it's what's for dinner in the United States is extremely well known phrase we used our own dollars to work with consumers in advertising and interactions and promotions to say Beef it's what's for dinner and now someone says hey great we just got done with our lab based product here and we're beef it's what's for dinner we want to be the burger you choose well it's as William said isn't it that people are looking full familiarity carry Can you see the meat industry in a position where I can shape the debate in that way because I'm not at the end of the day it's what consume how consumers are put to it that will really be the decisive factor here if consumers keep referring to these products as that Terence also says that. There's only so much neat industry can do right so it would just come down to the brand names so yeah consumers will call * it work ever they want to call it I think the only real impact will be on companies that need to change the name of their products and maybe one of those names would become the generic name for the beef industry would interactively convince consumers to pick up a new word but that would just be because it's the most popular in the most thought product going to give you another example we recently launched the bacon strips it's very clear It tells exactly what people are expecting if you would name that product salty strips or something like that which can come up with more descriptive name stuff is that the can bacon strips I mean could you have said bacon flavored I mean they're obviously not bacon strips No but I. I think it's very clear for the consumer what it is and what it tastes like and it gives them exactly the experience they want and they have in v given a clear description of what the product is in that situation and should see what Kerry says here as well Bacon says to me Pork words do have sort of a core meaning less prototypical meaning so like bacon we would think prototypically is poor but when we added into it then we say Ok it has all the other properties of bacon just not the pork part so it's got the kind of smoky flavor it's got the crispness and cetera where I think. Consumers are used to eat bacon if it's pork based and this allows them to complete their meal to something that they know and if you try to describe it in a way which is fuzzy and not clear you're not giving them do what you need to make the choice for that experience but is it bacon because it looks shape of bacon is that what it is what is the there's the taste there's the texture and there's the look of it wait that's from his perspective Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Since I'm over here I'll let you know if it stays like bake it or I'll give you my address all be the decider of that thank you so much and again with all due respect you just walking through our meat aisle stealing our names and then wondered why all wires are confused what's what's next and so I would just encourage you folks to be a little more creative with your names I mean bacon is a particular cut I think Bacon predates that cheeseburger from not correctly or carry so I don't know well I just wonder if I mean they responded to the essence of the discussion is that we're trying to advise politicians to make a well balanced decision and you just mentioned your walking through our aisle which sort of indicates that the aisle is owned by some manufacturers or industry and I think the isles are a territory where consumers can make their choices it's not owned by anybody it's very dynamic it's changing and I challenge everybody to try to use products and make their own choice and also nobody owns words either accept or trademarked words and bacon is certainly not trademark I'm sure but yes his point is that these words come with a history that history that his industry has been very instrumental in in shaping why not come up with something completely different I mean people not buy it if it didn't say bacon in it what the purpose is in itself is not to be creative but this to be clear to consumers if with creativity you can get something which brings to message across in a better way we will definitely do that I find a really a question for them and carry I like your input on this is well let's say the European Union parliament does vote against you know allowing steak sausage and burger to be used in foods that don't come from an animal so basically that would impact your business quite a lot well and what would you if pressed uses a are. Placement name let me start by saying that would be a huge mistake and that we would continue doing everything to convince politicians to see the bigger picture and the importance of helping to transition that's a they they don't you never know in that case we have no other option Nom desire to come with descriptive names which are appetizing and give an explanation of what it is then you come to words like Patti or your arms I would aim to stay as close as possible to something that describes what it is Carrie would you make of that I would avoid any name that sounds even remotely like to be. Some of the strategies that other companies have use or things like chicken with like an apostrophe So you know it's not actually chicken but it's chicken like even with an apostrophe and write something like that who just wouldn't do. It but I don't think that alone must the law was written in such a way that you're not allowed to do that you know that would be one strategy I might use and would that feel to you really. It's a trick and if it works if it remains clear to the consumer and it's legally allowed that could be a solution but that's not the real solution the real solution is to all together make a wise decision and leave the choice with consumers and not artificially we have with manufacturers. I have a feeling we're going to be hearing a lot more about this debate in the coming year as more people flock to talent based alternatives to meet an industry that's been growing over the past few years thanks to all our gas the c.e.o. Of the there are a veggie and begin food company based in the Netherlands just Peterson of the u.s. Cattlemen's Association and Kerry Gill and a linguistics expert. Let us know what you think you can get in touch on social media use the hash tag b.b.c. Food chain or tweet me my handles at the scene of trying to go for me and produces some into that thanks for listening the food chain is back again at the same time next week. This is the b.b.c. World Service this is listener supported $89.00 p.c.c. Pasadena a community service of Pasadena City College $90.00 caveat. Springs 89.5 k j I o high and 89 point one. Redlands a community service of the University of Redlands discover us online i k p c c dot org. With the 2020 election approaching Morning Edition shows you the view from here there and everywhere we take you across the country to explore different issues and understand the voices behind the votes I'm Brian Bakst in St Paul. News crew Virginia I'm Josh Rogers and conquer Mara Liasson n.p.r. News Washington travel somewhere new with Morning Edition from n.p.r. News weekday mornings on 89.3 k.p.c. See. Coming up after the news on the b.b.c. World Service it's hard to talk with me Stephen Sackur it is impossible to predict Donald Trump's policymaking and diplomacy he sits neither consistency nor consensus as is obvious in his approach to China North Korea Iran and a host of other challenges at home and abroad my guest today is Republican Senator Rick Scott of Florida a key Trump ally back in 2016 who has parted company with the president on some of his most controversial policies the way I look at it is down Trump you know loving or hating he believes he can negotiate a deal with Iran his belief right and I think a lot of Americans including my belief is the deal was not a great deal we gave them we gave around a lot of money they were continuing to enriching uranium so that Senator Rick Scott all the hard good comes after weeks of intense African mediation following the brutal suppression of mass protests a month ago and so it reports Sudanese military deaths on the civilian a position have agreed to each a point 5 members to the top body the to lead the country through a transition to democracy one will civilian member of the submarine Council will be agreed on by both sides media to say that member may or may not be a retired military officer the parties also agree to form a joint team to investigate last month's deadly crackdown on protesters in nearly defunct culpable will not to be allowed to seat in a submarine consul the b.b.c. Has uncovered new evidence that the authorities in China's western region of sheen Jack team to investigate last month's deadly crackdown on protesters in Delhi defunct culpable will not be allowed to seat in the silvery in council the b.b.c. Has uncovered new evidence that the earth already. In China's western region of she and yang are systematically separating Muslim families hundreds of thousands of adults are being detained while children are being placed in large boarding schools John Sudworth reports from Beijing it's long been know that China's despite having an impact on children in changing our investigation quantify it government figures show that in one township alone more than $400.00 children have both parents detained officials assess each child to see if they need centralized care along with the camps which China insists are vocational training centers to combat religious extremism it's also been building giant boarding schools into which thousands of children many of nursery age of being moved across in Malaysia has charged the step son of a former prime minister the Hollywood producer reason as he is with money laundering the case is linked to the theft of billions of dollars from the Malaysian state investment fund one m.t.b. He's Michael pristine resume as is alleged to have taken nearly a quarter of a $1000000000.00 from the government fund it's thought his Hollywood production company Red Granite pictures used it to make films including The Wolf of.