Lets start with the sizzle before we get to the steak, are you gonna run for president . I think i just got an f from you. This is overheard. audience applause chief brown, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for being here, and congratulations on the book. I have to say, i kinda wish you didnt have to write it. Right, i wish the events that propelled this book to exist hadnt happened. Although, its such an interesting story that you tell not just of july 7th of 2016 but your own life, and i think that actually for a lot of us, finding out about you as the backdrop for this book is worth the read. Yes, and ive been an extremely private person, even though a public figure for various reasons but this book reveals my thoughts, my life, how it applied story behind the story. Purpose, meaning, yeah. The events, i should say, of july 7th, obviously people are aware of them in the abstract, or maybe in specific if they paid attention to the news of that day and after it. Lets set this scene for that and talk about that a little bit before we talk about you. So, 2016 was a particularly brutal year in this country in terms of the relationship between the police and citizens. You had 64 Police Officers, i believe, shot, you said in the book, and 21 ambushed. Yes. And a thousand, almost a thousand People Killed by the police. Yes. Also, last year. Yes, and it reached a fever pitch in july after just to the runup to this yes, for the shootings in baton rouge, louisiana and the shootings in minnesota. Alton sterling in louisiana, Philando Castile in minnesota. Those both happened over the july 4th weekend. Weekend. Yes. So thats really the immediate backdrop to what happened on july 7th in dallas because those two killings prompt protests, rallies, all across the country. Including one in dallas and the dallas one was really at the same time happening, similar events happening in other places. Yes, and we felt that this was a critical point in Police Community relationships and that this protest was really important to manage well. Do you have any reason to fear that things would go off the rails on that day . Going into that day, knowing that peoples tensions were at a high point, knowing everything that had preceded this, did you go into this day thinking, we really have to plan for this ending badly . No, actually it was just the opposite. We had met with the planners of the protest weeks before when we knew the july 4th weekend prompted this idea of a National Protest day. And so we met with them, we were in undercover capacity in their planning meetings, we were hearing what they were planning to do, they were planning to have a peaceful protest and they intentionally wanted to be peaceful because they wanted the country to hear their concerns and not be distracted by violence, or Property Damage or whatever. So we knew that they were gonna have speakers, have a pretty stationary event in a park downtown, and then disperse. That was the plan and it was going to plan. And dallas also, lets say, not just any city in this country, right . It is the the 9th largest city in the entire country, it has a long history of issues around race. Yes, it does. And so, dallas as a particular backdrop is an element of this story, and maybe a greater burden for this city to show its best face. I agree. And we were intentional in our ways of managing this crowd. We were making sure that the best of dallas was gonna be on display. Display. So the gentleman who killed these Police Officers. Five officers ultimately died as a result of this day. Micah johnson was an army veteran, african american, and he very specifically said, we came to know, that he was targeting the police, and white police, specifically, as a result of these incidents that have happened elsewhere. Yes, we learned that later at the time when we negotiated with him. People think this was a long, drawnout event. And it was to a certain extent, but the shootout was just a few minutes, then we spent the time after the suspect gets cornered, three and a half hours to try to bring it to a peaceful conclusion, even though there had been the most extreme violence you could imagine, we still wanted to give him an opportunity to give up peacefully and that opportunity just didnt exist. Yeah, and so, ultimately, as we now know from watching the events on that day, you had a robot with a bomb on it. A pound of c4. Right, that you sent in, and thats ultimately how you resolved the situation. He was killed and situation was brought to a close and that was it. It could have been a lot worse and in fact, he talked about having intentions for it to have been a lot worse. In fact, at one point he said there were bombs all over dallas, right . Not just his intent to create the most damage he could to people. He wanted to divide us around race. He particularly wanted to target white cops, so that we could be more divided, in this area of white cops versus communities of color. This was more than just, the violence which was bad enough, but he wanted to spark something that would divide our city, divide our country even more. Right. What allowed this situation not to be worse than it was . I mean, thats a strange question, im sure. What happened . What was the Decision Point or what were the elements that allowed the situation to be contained from your perspective . I had the, the belief that whatever would happen, divided or wed come together, rested on how we talked to the public and the world when we were being, having press conferences. So the aftermath of this. How you talked about the events of that day and what it meant, what it signified about what had happened prior, and what it would mean Going Forward. I actually got a question from a media person about what this meant. And specifically, i answered the question in a more broad term, not just speaking to that reporter, or to dallas. I was speaking to the country and the answer was, were not gonna let a coward change our democracy, that were not going to now be more divided because this person does this. And this is an opportunity for us to challenge each other to do better but also to come together on common goals. Right, youre not under the illusion of course, chief, that this situation was going to cause the race to relations in this country to suddenly repair or the relationship between the police and communities of color to suddenly repair because this is an ongoing situation. Its been ongoing in the year since, im sad to say. Youre probably acknowledged that were not any better really than we were before. Im naive so im gonna first check the box of a naive person. Because i left school my senior year here at ut austin to become a Police Officer to save the world. I am that naive to believe that we can take the worst of circumstances and be the beneficiaries of the greatest hope. You still choose to believe that theres a solution there. That theres a fix there. Yes. I insist on it. You insist on it. Yeah. Do you believe that the police have a beef with the communities they serve . I want you to speak truth here about whats goin on. Why do we have this problem between Law Enforcement and communities of color . You grew up in a community in dallas that has been, you know, you understand from the Community Side of this conversation, right . So, let me be plainspoken. Ive been black a long time. audience laughs i will fact check that. Okay. laughs audience laughs confirmed. So, ive been stereotyped as a black man. And i hate it. I hate that if a black person does something, all blacks can be cast as what that person did in a negative light. And ive been a cop all of my adult life. And i hate it when a cop does something and it cast the whole lot of policing in a bad theres a stereotyping of that as well. Stereotyping divides us further. Its not a solution to stereotype and there are some cops that dont deserve to wear the uniform. Without question. But explain to me how five cops can give the ultimate sacrifice, run toward gunfires, kill protestors who had just been protesting them between bullets and their bodies and be racist and cast in the same light as the one or 2 of cops that dont need to be in the uniform as the same as i as a black man will be cast in a stereotypical way in other negative tones. But is the negative critique of the police chief or is the negative critique of the communities that the police serves in any way legitimate . There are individual instances of cops behaving badly. And there are people in the community, patricularly communities of color behaving badly. Right. But you cant cast the whole lot. A few bad cops or a certain number of bad cops are not the police in the main. Right. And a few bad actors in these communities are not the black communities, say, in the main. The problem is that we tend to simplistically associate the bad actors on both sides with the institution. With broad strokes. Broad strokes. With no solutions in between. How do you change it . I go back to how our democracy was formed. Particularly the local democracy changes, more significantly, our lives. So what i mean by that real quickly is protesting alone has never significantly changed anything in our country. The Civil Rights Movement is the closest example. 50 years ago, young people began protesting. And then they challenged in the courts, the laws. The divider segregated by equal laws. And then they ran for government and got elected and served. John lewis got elected and served in government, after protesting. They wanted the Voting Rights act so they can have the right to vote. So they could then, particularly at the local level, have an impact on city council, city managers, mayors. So that they could then be represented in government. That their point of view could be represented. But you understand that in communities like dallas, austin, houston, san francisco, chicago, pick a city, people believe that coming out and showing that they have a problem with the way things are, whatever that issue may be, whatever the community may be, they believe that having their voices heard is an essential component, maybe the first pebble in the path of our democracy. Youre not saying they shouldnt do that. No, im saying lets contrast that with the last City Council Election in dallas, just a few weeks ago. 6 turnout. Right. Which means 94 of the people at the local level, stayed at home. And when you protest and have that kind of participation in our local democracy, you cannot expect any significance. Ultimately it doesnt matter if you dont do what is necessary to make change happen. Yes. And thats where that comes from. Do you expect that were gonna have situations like dallas Going Forward . I mean, it feels like, how can you say no, right . We take a step forward and then another viral video comes out and we take two steps back. And so its been a most challenging time, and we right now dont know how reform is gonna go forward from the federal aspects of how the Justice Department would put forth a consent decree. So we dont know that. What its gonna take, and im gonna repeat this again, is putting some skin in the game at the local democracy level, a municipal government, thats where the Police Chiefs are hired, thats where the mayors and the city council write policy, change training for Police Officers. They can actually reform through engage participation in the local government. So if you dont like whats going on you gotta change it, thats it. Yeah, put some skin in the game. I quit school my senior year, became a Police Officer. That is not the only thing you can do is become a Police Officer. But thats an example, i mean youre an example of somebody who said, i cant just sit back and watch a situation unfold that im not happy with. Ive gotta put myself in the middle of it and try to be a positive changer. Yes, after you finish protesting, put that protest sign down and put an application in. Be the change you wanna see. You were chief for six years, maybe a little bit more. You were on the force for more than 33 years. Yes. You know how the police department, how Police Forces work. Are there things practically over and above what were talking about at a high level, or are there on the ground, granular things that forces can do to ensure that the relationship between themselves and the community is better and healthier . Some aspect of community policing. Is there technology that can be used, whether its body cameras or dashboard cameras the kinds of things that have come into common usage or were all kind of familiar enough with them . More that forces now looking back over your shoulder, can be doing or should be doing . Yes, all of the above, check all the boxes. Heres the best example that i can give. There are cops that i used to get assigned with, that today other cops get assigned with, you dont wanna ride with them. cause when they get to a scene with you, theyre gonna cause problems. Theyre gonna have you in internal affairs, writing letters, theyre gonna put your career on the line. When you go to a call and theyre in the call with you, hey, hey, you stay in the car, ill go handle this, when i get back, lets go to the next call. Cops know the cops that shouldnt be cops. Theres a small percentage. And the risks are, the reason why im saying this, the risks are this small percentage can hijack the internal organization. Why cant you get those bad cops out . Thats the question that has to be answered by Police Leadership. Ive terminated over 60 cops as police chief during the six years i was there. And that casts you being portrayed as not being supportive of a police enemy of the cops. Yes. Is the police union the issue . Sometimes its the culture, not the union. Union is the reflection of the culture where people pay dues and expect to be represented. Im not against unions but per se, but Police Leadership have to put their careers on the line and challenge the police and culture to get the one or 2 . You owe it to the 98 who are doing the job the right way, to get the one or 2 out of policing. In some ways, Public Education is having a voice in this conversation as well, right . You have a 10year system at the higher ed level, or in the case of public ed, youve got unions that are very protective of their folks and understandably so. But there are bad teachers who are probably you know, in schools, people know who the bad teachers are in the same way that enforcers people know who the bad cops are. Great segue for this next point. Its a good point for me to make. The whole time i was chief, i wish my cops would throw a hundred mile and hour fastball, or a mumbles ball. Because theyre not compensated for the task we expect them to do. We expect them to be perfect, not make mistakes, particularly on video, and we expect them to risk their lives for us, but we pay them nominal types of compensation. While sports entertainment, if you can throw a fastball, throw a football, dunk a basketball or you look like brad pitt. You are extremely compensated to the most perverted way. Right. And we do get what we pay for. We get what we pay for. So this is out of balance, you think. Yes, not just policing and fire departments, but teachers as well. We need to think about compensating the foundations of our society. How we teach our young people, how we protect ourselves, need to be compensated. We need to pay our cops, pay our firefighters, pay our teachers much more money than we do. Whyd you wanna be a cop . Youve said it a couple times, as we know from the book, that you dropped out of college to go be a cop. Yes, i was a senior in 1983 when the crack cocaine epidemic hit my neighborhood, hit all inner cities, i grew up poor. Youre living in oak cliff. Oak cliff in dallas, a neighborhood in dallas. You grew up mostly in dallas and so you saw your community, the community you grew up in, suffering from this drug epidemic. And you said, i gotta come home and do something about it. Yes, i gotta come home. My dad and mom broke the news to him, my dad was very frustrated with the decision. I was so fascinated by this. This is an early actor in the book. Your dad says to you, why do you wanna be a cop . His exact quote was, cops mistreat people in the community. Yes. This is 1982, 83, this is 30 x years ago. Your dad says this to you. Its the same conversation that probably dads are having with kids who decide to be cops today. Today, yes. Right, its the exact same conversation. Yes, it is. And my dad grew up, hes born 1940. He grew up in the jim crow south segregation. He was probably more likely than not, not respected by police during that timeframe. Thats his frame of reference. Thats his world view. But im stubborn. Im stubborn. Im worried about their safety livin in the neighborhood, while the crack cocaine epidemic is increasingly more violent. I cant concentrate at school anyway. And so i go down and put an application in. And i dont take no for an answer. They hired me, and my first beat was my own neighborhood. And you were always a boy scout. In essence, not a literal boy scout, but you know, as we now know that term to mean, growing up as a kid. I earned these nerdy glasses right here, yeah, yeah. audience laughter let me say, here we go, right here chief laughs you were always on the right side of things, you played sports, you tried to stay on the right side of the line, right . Im interested in an anecdote where somebody gives you a joint. I think this was in san francisco. It was in san francisco. Somebody gives you a joint and you try a joint for the first time. And then you decided, okay, i dont like this, and then the opportunity comes up later, and you say, thank god, if i had made the wrong choice, my whole life would have been different. I wouldnt have been able to be hired as a Police Officer if i was a drug user. Im 13 years old when i make this choice. But for a few years later, that being a crack pipe was the first experimentation is addiction for a lifetime. I always said but for the grace of god, go i its a different story. Well, and even then, i wanna get to this. So your son dies, and you take pills to sleep. Yup. And then you think about continuing to take pills to help you with your grief and your sleep and everything else, and you look at the pills and you say, if i take pills the second time, im gonna take them everyday, and you push the pills aside. Because you have such extraordinary discipline and so much of whats in this book is you having this ongoing conversation with yourself about who do i wanna be, how do i wanna be, how do i want my life constructed and pushing all the things that could derail you off. When i was in kindergarten, my mother saw this in me. She called me a old soul. audience laughs softly a old soul. I loved being around my great grandmother. Mabel. Yes, mabel henderson. I love being around older people 20 years, 30 years older than me. My whole life, ive never liked the same kind of music my peers liked. Ive always liked the music my parents listened to. My mother just consistently called me a old soul. And that caused me to be more reflective. That nature i have caused me to be a bit more reflective in decision making. Now, chief, you know that at the time that this incident in dallas happened on july 7th, this horrible day, we came to learn things. As you say youre a private person. [chief] yes. We came to learn things about you that we did not know. Your brother died, your son died, your first partner died. You actually have had to personally deal with an extraordinary high number of terrible things in your own life. How have you dealt with that . How do you deal with it . And in some ways, did it better prepare you for this last trip around the track as chief, this horrible day in the aftermath of it . Only upon reflection does it make sense that this was preparing me to deal with five officers being killed and to speak to an officer, department and speak to the country in a calm voice and bring people together and divide. While i was going through all of that tragedy, it made no sense to me. Actually, the first tragic moment was my first Police Partner who was killed in the line of duty. I wanted to quit the department, i wanted to quit my faith, im a christian, not same with the gospel, i wanted to quit, and i went to a prayer meeting to confront god about why bad things happen to good people, and to say so long. That this faith is not worthwhile. And this prayer meeting was a small group of women mostly. And they prayed for me and kept me in my faith, kept me on the job. Its the only reason why im here today is because of gods good grace mumbles . Its the only reason why i was able to go through tragedy after tragedy after tragedy. And when the most tragic things happens to other people, im able to rise to the occasion only through my faith. Your brother was killed by drug dealers. Drug dealers. Yes. Your son had Behavioral Health issues. Bipolar. He killed a Police Officer in a suburban city, and was subsequently killed. And then he was killed by police. Yes. He was 28 years old, adult bipolar, had no signs of bipolar. The only gun i had in the house was the gun that the city issued me. He had not been acclimated to guns. We didnt hunt or anything like that so he had not been interested. Adult bipolar, untreated, and this episode happened. And so in some ways i kinda bring this forward to Micah Johnson and the events of july 7th because he also had serious behavioral, i mean, clearly, he had serious Behavioral Health issues. And i wonder if from your own experience, with a son, an adult son who tragically died but who had these Behavioral Health issues, may be similar in some respects to Micah Johnson. If that gave you a different way to think about that day in the moment and the ultimate way to resolve the situation. I had been developed through tragedy and empathy thats just hard to explain for people. Its beyond empathy. I can really see a kid struggling with Mental Health or drug addiction differently and appreciate that person needs services. Or before my tragedy, i would have said, thats somebody elses problem. I would have had sympathy, maybe. But not as if its something i need to do to help resolve that. Do you think the Police Forces around this country generally speaking, have adequate training in dealing with people with Behavioral Health . Because of course many people who are involved in criminal activity are not people with Behavioral Health issues but a great number are. Right, and in some ways having that frame of reference for that maybe as a better strategy. Our prisons in many parts of this country are our largest Mental Health providers. Theyre effectively psych wards, right . Yes, they are. Up to a third. Up to a third are Mental Health providing issues that police cannot resolve with handcuffs. You cant arrest your way out of Mental Health, poor Mental Health policies and funding. You cant. Its impossible to have the cops, the burden of Police Officers in this country is way too much. Do you make this case to elected officials . I do. Youre no longer the chief, you retired as chief in october of 2016. Youre now essentially on the circuit. By which i mean in part, youre advocating for a lot of these issues were talking about. I serve on the board of Mental Health institute. Out of dallas. Yes, out of dallas. And we advocated at the legislature this year and got the funding that we asked for, thank you Governor Abbott for signing that to argue that when you think about the criminal justice portfolio of issues, youve got to put Mental Health in there, if not at the very top. Yes. Because these are issues, theyre related, unbelievably related. And its intersected with drug abuse. People who are addicted to drugs often are selfmedicating a mental illness. Just go to a Mental Health facility and try to get medicine. Its embarrassing, what weve put out there to help people. So, chief, we have a minute left. So you retired as police chief in october of 2016. You thought this was the moment for you to depart after 33 years on the force and six years as chief. And so youre now out in the world. You have any thoughts that you wanna get back into the public space in any way . Because the bet, as you said yourself in the very beginning, at the end of the day, you have to be the change. Yes. So where are you in this conversation Going Forward . Well, ive been asked this question before, are you considering politics . Heres my answer. I dont know if politics will consider me. And heres why i say that. But youre not foreclosing. No, im just saying, if you give me a Million Dollars for my campaign, i may not vote the way you want me to vote. If a person in a Different Party says something i agree with, im gonna support them. So my partner would kick me out and i wouldnt have any money to run for office. audience laughter so its not that what i consider politics. I dont know if politics will consider me. Right, what you just described is actually the antidote to the poison though. Hmm. Somebody who is willing to say, im not gonna, its the country over party idea. Yes, sir. So that might be you. Okay, evan, we gotta talk more after. audience laughter okay, very good. Chief, tv likes nothing more than a cliffhanger. chief laughs i think we just provided one. Chief brown, thank you so much for being here. Congratulations on your book, thank you for everything audience applause [announcer] wed love to have you join us in this studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q as with our audience, and guests and an archive of past episodes. When we journey the mass incarceration issue back in the 80s and 90s in that war on drugs, our crime rates were 10 times as high as they are now. And were actually much safer when we can make distinctions between people who need Mental Health care, drug treatment, to make their bed space for the violent people that need to be in jail. [announcer] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the Alice KlebergReynolds Foundation and hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy. And by klrus producers circle, ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. The character and interests steves im meeting my florentine friend tommaso at i fratellini, a venerable hole in the wall much loved among locals for its tasty sandwiches and wine sold by the glass. Grazie. Tommaso thank you. And when youre done, you leave it on the rack. Steves boy, its intense in the city. Tommaso yes, it is. Well, if you want to leave the tourists, lets cross the river, and lets go to where the real florentines live and work. Steves whats that . Tommaso the oltrarno area. Steves theres much more to this town than tourism, as youll quickly find in the characteristic back lanes of the oltrarno district. Artisans busy at work offer a rare opportunity to see traditional craftsmanship in action. Youre welcome to just drop in to little shops, but, remember, its polite to greet the proprietor. Your key phrase is, can i take a look . Posso guardare . Man certo. Steves grazie. Here in this great city of art, theres no shortage of treasures in need of a little tlc. This is beautiful. How old is this panting . Woman this is a 17thcentury painting. Steves from florence . Woman we dont know. Maybe the area is genova. Steves genova. Each shop addresses a need with passion and expertise. Fine instruments deserve the finest care. Grand palaces sparkle with gold leaf, thanks to the delicate and exacting skills of craftspeople like this. A satisfying way to wrap up an oltrarno experience is to enjoy a florentine steakhouse, which any italian meat lover knows means chianina beef. The quality is proudly on display. Steaks are sold by weight and generally shared. The standard serving is about a kilo for two, meaning about a pound per person. So, both of those for four people . Woman yes. Steves the preparation is simple and well established. Good luck if you want it well done. Man i am hungry, yeah. Oh, look at this. Ah steves oh, beautiful. [ laughs ] man wow. Steves chianina beef. Woman white beans. Steves okay. Perfect. Man and that one. Steves so, the meat is called chianina. Tommaso thats its name, because it comes from the chianti. Steves oh, from chianti. Okay. And tell me about this concept of the good marriage of the food, you know . Tommaso well, when you have the chianina meat, you want to have some chianti wine, and they go together well. They marry together. We say, si sposano bene. Steves si sposano bene. A good marriage. In other words, the wine is from tuscany, and the meat is from tuscany. Tommaso exactly. You dont want to have a wine from somewhere else. Thats it