This is overheard. applauding katharine hayhoe, welcome. Thank you for having me. Nice to have you here. So i thought we would do a baseline for this conversation. Alright. So, establish a baseline. Global warming is real . Yes. Climate change is real . That too. Climate science is legitimate . Yes and its very old. So whats everybodys glitch . Why is this even a thing . Why are we even arguing about this . This is the big debate. It is. [evan] yeah. The number one reason were arguing is because people dont like what they perceive to be the solutions and its easier to say it isnt a real problem than to say it is a real problem, but i dont want to fix it. So is the problem a problem of ideology . Is the problem a problem of faith at odds with some of this stuff, science, and whathaveyou . Is the problem a problem of economics at odds with this or is it some combination of those things . The smokescreens that we see when it comes to Climate Change, the smokescreens people throw up, are smokescreens of science. Oh, its just a natural cycle or we dont know enough yet. Theres smokescreens of faith. God wouldnt let this happen or the worlds gonna end anyways, but when you get to the bottom line, the real issue is that the way weve been doing things is the problem. Weve been depending on coal and oil and gas for all of our energy over the last 300 years. Right. And it brought us to a great place, dont get me wrong, but nows the time to make that switch. There are many people who dont want us to make the switch. It occurs to me that when you think about people saying, well, the Climate Science comes forward or climate scientists come forward and people say, well, thats just wrong. Theyre just choosing to believe that. We dont do that with a lot of other aspects of science. We dont say like biology or physics, well, you say gravity exists, but youre just saying it. Actually, i assert that thats not the case. Why this and not that . What about this specifically . And you, even worse, youre saying gravity exists so that you can line your pockets with government grant money. laughs right, exactly. Yes, its these greedy scientists who are only in it for themselves. Right. What people dont realize is the physics that we use to build climate models is the same physics we use to build airplanes. Right. So if you really dont think that Climate Science is legitimate, theres a lot of dont get on a plane. No, because it clearly wont fly. Its just your imagination. Right. Its the engineers telling you it will fly to line their pockets. Right. Were in a world right now where actually science is weirdly the enemy of a lot of politicians and a lot of people who run for office actually, theyre not ashamed or embarrassed about this. They actually proudly embrace their denial of science. That includes people who are responsible for big policy areas in our government. The chairman of the House Science Committee in the congress who happens to be a fellow texan of ours, lamar smith from san antonio, doesnt believe in Climate Science. Guy who chairs the Energy Committee of the house in the new congress refused to attend a speech by the pope two years ago because the pope had mentioned Climate Change. This is really a huge fight and it doesnt show any signs in a new administration of going away. No, in fact if anything, i think it is accelerating and its amping up and why is it a fight . Its because science doesnt compromise. Whether you believe in gravity or not, when you step off the cliff, you are going down. laughing whether you say Climate Change is real or not, the thermometer will still give you the same number and it will still say that its warming. And politics changes and politicians change, but science remains constant. The principles remain constant, the conclusions remain constant. Yes. Right. So talk to me about your origins. Talk to us about the origins of your interest in this. You grew up in canada. Originally when you went to university, you actually intended to be an astrophysicist, right . [katharine] yes. Talk a little bit about how you got from one to the other. So my dad is a science educator. He grew up with six sisters and three daughters. He used to say the only male around the house was the cat and he was really not quite male. laughing if you know what i mean. So i almost feel like i didnt have a choice. I went to university and science to me was the coolest thing, the most important thing, the truest thing that you could study i felt like. So, of course, i studied science. I fell in love with astrophysics because the idea that we can understand the distant reaches of the universe with nothing more than the brains and the limited instruments that we have on this tiny, insignificant planet in the grand scheme of things, just blows me away. So i was studying astrophysics, planning a career studying quasars at the time. To finish up my degree, i took a class on Climate Science in the geography department. I took it thinking, oh, its probably really easy and i think i know everything there already is to know, because in canada, you study it in high school. That class completely shocked me because, first of all, i didnt realize that climate modeling is all physics. In fact, much of the same astrophysics that i had already learned goes into climate models. The second thing i didnt realize was how urgent the issue is. I had kind of mentally lumped it with, you know, biodiversity loss, deforestation, air pollution, but what i realized is, we cannot fix those issues and we cant even fix bigger issues like hunger and poverty and water scarcity. Everything is connected, right, back to this. Theyre all connected. So at the time that you were doing this, was Climate Change or Climate Science as much of a general topic of conversation out in the world because it seems like today, now, you say Climate Change or Climate Science and most people have some acknowledgement that thats something, but go back 15 years ago or 20 years ago and it wasnt really a popular topic of conversation. Not really. Like i said, it was over there in the air pollution category. Right. You know, general environmental issues. It was a niche, a niche. A niche issue. Really, what opened my eyes to the importance of this issue is it isnt just about the environment, its about us. We are some of the most vulnerable species on the planet to a changing climate. Right. So was it alarm that attracted you to this . Was it a negative attraction, that oh my god we have to fix this or was it more of a i think this is really interesting . It was the fact that i had always wanted to do something that would help people. I grew up, a part of my time as a missionary kid in south america so i had friends who lived in very different places. Mud huts built of bamboo and mud that could get washed away when it flooded. Friends who lived in houses just as nice as the ones we have here. So i knew how Vulnerable People can be to natural disasters that are getting stronger under a changing climate. I always wanted to do something that would help people, but i have a really weak stomach. I faint at the sight of blood. So i felt like the healthcare profession was out of reach. Thats out. Ill just go be a scientist and then allofasudden i realized, wait theres this whole field of science thats all about helping people. Yep. So i want you to define the risk for us or define the threat that failure to act on our part as individuals or as communities or as a country. Help us understand exactly the magnitude of it, but put it in simple terms, put it in complicated terms, but talk through the risk here that were under. The best analogy, i think, to our situation is smoking. So people say, is it too late . No, its not too late. Youve been smoking all your life. Whens the best day to quit . Today. If you dont quit today, tomorrow. Weve been smoking fossil fuels all of our life so to speak and the best time to quit is now because the risks get more and more serious and more and more dangerous the more we smoke. Is there a magic number of cigarettes that we can smoke up until and then not even one more and we wont get lung cancer . No. Theres no magic number of fossil fuels that if we just produce this much well be okay. The more we produce, the more dangerous it is. When i say dangerous, i dont just mean the polar bear, i mean us. Two thirds of the worlds biggest cities are within a few feet of sea level and sea level will rise a few feet this century. Hurricanes are getting stronger, heavy downpours are getting more frequent, heat waves are killing more people. Its affecting our food, our water, and our economy. But, of course, on a day when the weather is atypically cold. Yes, yes, like today. People say, well, Global Warming, you know. If there were really Global Warming, it wouldnt be 30 out or 25 out and so this disproves everything. Oh, yes, i hear that all the time. Thats the number one thing we hear between november and march. Its cold outside. Wheres Global Warming . Clearly, youre makin this up. Exactly. But . But we know that we have weather. Weather just goes up and down from day to day. [evan] right. Climate is the longterm average of weather over 20 to 30 years. So we have our longterm average that is warming and then we have that variability on top of it. So saying that its cold today, wheres Global Warming is like saying the titanic cant be sinking because my end just went 200 feet up in the air. laughing in fact, ive heard you rebut the people who say, well, its cold where i live, therefore there cant be Global Warming, by saying, yes, but actually if you look at alaska, and alaskas temperatures over time, there seems to be just incontrovertible evidence that something is going on. Oh, yes. Alaska and the arctic is warming twice as fast as the rest of the world because when all that shiny white ice and snow melts, theres this dark surface that absorbs so much more of the suns energy. It isnt just getting warmer, the ground that used to be permanently frozen is thawing. All of the homes and even the Oil Pipelines built on top of that ground are cracking and crumbling. Right. You know that in the civic arena, part of what you need to do to be a good combatant is to try to see the other side and to try to understand the other sides motivation and to try to put yourself in their shoes, to look for holes in your own argument so that you try to understand where theyre coming from. Do you think theres anything at all to the other side here . Is there anything redeeming about the pushback against this . Do you see either in the concerns about the Business Climate that might be impacted by the necessary remedies or do you see, i mean, does anything at all in the side that give you sympathy for those people, sympathy for that argument . Yes. Many people who oppose the reality of Climate Change do so because they are afraid of the solutions, or again, what they think the solutions are. What they think the solutions are. They think the solutions are a Big Government telling us what to do, how to set our thermostat, what type of car were allowed to drive. Thats a thing these days across the board, so right. Exactly. Consistent with what we hear elsewhere. Right. But many of those people, if we actually sit down and have a conversation, and ive had many of these, i imagine you have had too. When you get down to it, theyre good people who want to do the right thing. They just have a different view with the blinkers on pointing in a bit of a different direction. So i have found so many times when if we can identify a genuine shared love, concern, or value that we really do connect over and identify with each other over, then from that genuinelyshared bridge we have, we can start to talk about this issue from a very different perspective. Often starting with Solutions Rather than science. Yep. Like dont you think its great the fort hood, the biggest military base in the United States, just bought a new contract for wind and solar because theyll save taxpayers 168 million . Right. Who doesnt like that . In the process, it will be better for everybody. Its not just about the numbers. Theres a larger good thats being accomplished here, but if thats the lens through which people regard this, then thats fine. Yeah. I mean, who doesnt love the fact that, theres a billion People Living in Energy Poverty first of all, who dont have access to electricity. Who doesnt love the fact that solar is the way that theyre actually getting electricity. Right, right. Better for the environment, better for the world, and also as a practical issue, solving a problem, a Public Policy problem or a community problem. So im hearing you say that fear of the remedy is what drives people, but i also wonder if you go back, is the problem the output, the remedy, or is the problem the input misinformation . There seems to have been a misinformation or disinformation campaign. Yes. Waged on this issue over time so that many of the people who may oppose what you say or oppose what appears to be fundamental, simple reality, it may be because theyve been told things that are simply not true and theyre basing all their views on that bad information. Yes, oh, absolutely. There is false information being deliberately spread. There are a limited number of scientists who are in the pay of fossil fuel companies and they get millions of dollars to literally just spread information that is not true or to attack other scientists. [evan] right. But the reality is that we arent black and white on this issue. So if you look at our opinions about Climate Change and solutions, not just the science, were spread across this spectrum. Theres this group called the six americas of Global Warming that categorizes us into these six different groups. People who are truly dismissive, people who would dismiss any piece of evidence. You pile up 10,000 Journal Articles and papers, theyll dismiss em. An angel of god with tablets of stone saying Climate Change is real, theyll dismiss em. laughing those people are 10 of the population. Now, they may seem disproportionately concentrated in one certain city of the country, washington dc, but theyre not that many. Does that feel like a lot to you or a little . That feels like a lot to me. 10 . You think its a little . Given that we often think people are more 5050, yeah because then some people are doubtful. So the doubtful people are people who have been misinformed like you just said, but they have some doubts. Then, did you know that the Biggest Group of us are cautious . Then, the secondBiggest Group are concerned. So were there. Over 60 of people in the United States are either somewhat or very concerned about Climate Change. We just dont realize that there are solutions that are good for the economy, good for national security, good for us personally, and good for Climate Change at the same time. I appreciate the fact that youre going through the whole litany of these Things National security, good for the economy because you really just cant make this purely about climate. No. Youve got to connect it for people to other things. Exactly. One of the things that is part of the hayhoe brand is that you have figured out how to put faith and science on parallel paths if not intersecting paths, right . You talk often about this through the lens of faith. Although your father was not ordained, your father was quite connected to his church when you were growing up. Youre married to an evangelical pastor, right . [katharine] yeah. You consider yourself a person of deep faith and you often talk about Climate Change through the filter of faith. I wonder if you would explain how you came to that place because that differentiates you and it also puts you on a different path from a lot of evangelicals whove chosen to view this issue differently. Yes. Thats why i think its so important to distinguish between political evangelicals who get their theology primarily from their political ideology and secondarily from the bible versus theological evangelicals who get it primarily from the bible. So there is an important distinction between those groups. As a scientist, i was trained to speak as a scientist, so when i first moved to lubbock, i got my first invitation to speak to the league of women voters, a fairly friendly audience, and i went and i started with science and i talked all about the science and i ended with science. Then all the questions were, well, but why should i care, and what should i do about this . So i had to sit down myself and actually articulate to myself the reasons why i am so passionate about this issue. It had always been a little bit more instinctual or an emotional response, but to actually sit down and articulate why do i think this is so important . What do i share with people im talking to in west texas . What value do i genuinely share that we could connect on on this issue . I thought, well, one of the biggest values is obviously our faith because for me, Climate Change is about helping people. Its about helping people who are already suffering today, the poorest and the most vulnerable of the world are the ones who are most affected by a changing climate. That is why i care. So for a scientist, talking about what you feel about something to people in public . At some point, youd rather pull down your pants than do that. laughs so it was not an easy switch and i see many of my colleagues struggling with the same issues today, but we have realized that talking facts, facts, facts is not enough. Youve got to personalize it, youve got to make it more intimate, youve got to give people a way to access it. Of course, i think that religion, faith, is largely about belief and science is largely about evidence. The question is how those two are not in conflict . Youve actually figured out a way for them to be perfectly aligned . Yes, i think they are. So theres a verse in the book of hebrews, theres a chapter thats all about faith and the first verse defines faith as the evidence of what is not seen. And science is exactly the opposite. Science is the evidence of what we do and can see. Science tells us climate is changing for the first time in the history of the planet, it really is us, not a natural cycle, and science tells us that the more carbon we burn, the worse the impacts. But science cant tell us what way to go. Its like a compass. The compass tells you north and south, but it doesnt tell you, its not a map. A compass is not a map, right. Yes, it doesnt tell you what direction you want to go in. In the same way, science tells us whats happening, but faith is what says, i want to make decisions that minimize the suffering for the poor and the vulnerable. That is my response to the facts the science gives us. But is your sense, to go back to this distinction between the sort of theological evangelicalism and political evangelical. Is your sense that the political evangelicals on this issue and other issues are actually as aware of what the bible says as you are . No. Because you know, i go back to the 2004 president ial campaign when john kerry, i think he was quoting, it was faith without works is dead was something among the things he talked about from the realm of the bible and he was saying, you know, there are a lot of people who vote and on the way into the voting booth, they step over poor people. The reality is theres something fundamentally inconsistent with saying on the one hand i believe in scripture, but on the other hand, im going to behave in exactly the opposite of what scripture says. There seems to be a little bit of tension here as well, that people are not as aware of what they think they are beholden to as they actually are. Yes, often our opinions are based on what our thoughtleaders tell us because were all cognitive misers. In other words, i mean, we dont have time to figure out cognitive misers . Yes. Its a good band name actually, isnt it . laughs yeah, it is. Im sorry. Why dont you have em on next week . I will, okay, good. Im sorry, i was distracted momentarily. What that means is we literally do not have the brain power to sit down and each of us figure out all the nuances and details of every issue that exists right now. So what do we do . We look to people whose values we share and we say, well, what do they think about this issue because surely theyve spent more time thinking about it than we have. Or they have a Research Team that tells them what to think. So we go to our thoughtleaders and in the conservative sphere now, the majority, not all, but the majority of thoughtleaders are saying this isnt real, gods in charge anyway, its all gonna be over, so it doesnt matter what we do to the planet. Theyre telling us comfortable, religioussounding untruths. That when you go to the bible, you see genesis one, humans were given responsibility over every living thing on this planet. Were not usurping gods authority, were in charge. Go to revelation, the last book of the bible, it says god will destroy those who destroy the earth. And all throughout the entire bible, there are verses about gods care for creation, for nature, for the planet, but also how were supposed to love and care for other people. Im wondering if the world is shifting a little bit in your direction. I couldnt believe my ears when i heard rick perry as a candidate nominee for secretary of energy say before the United States senate, i believe in sound science. He actually changed the view that he held as governor of our state of texas. He actually held open the possibility that Climate Science is not illegitimate completely. Maybe the world is beginning eversoslightly to move in the direction that youre going. Well, i think the sooner he and others realize that Climate Science is not a threat to the nuclear and Energy Economy, and the nuclear and Energy Economy is the future. So the Climate Science or the embrace of Climate Science may not be the disease, it may be the cure . Yes, it could be. As far as that goes. Yeah because whats the fix . The fix is to replace coal and gas and oil with wind and sun. What do we have here in texas . The most wind. The most wind. Of anybody. Yes and we have enough sun and wind to supply the entire country with electricity. Thats how much we have. We have the technological knowhow, we have the jobs, we have the infrastructure, we have the people. Texas is poised to again lead the nation in energy by embracing the cleanEnergy Economy. We visited before we came out here. You have a nineyearold. [katharine] i do. Youre watching this wonderful child of yours grow up in a world in which a lot of closelyheld political positions are beginning to fragment. Were sort of in a, you know, whether its samesex marriage or race, we have a lot of work to do in this country on race, but on the other hand, our kids are growing up in an era very different from the one we grew up in in terms of accepting diversity as a part of the fabric of all of our lives. I wonder if the answer here is generational more than anything else . That generation is growing up in a world much more hyperaware of this stuff. Yes. And maybe a lot less ideological about this stuff and so that possibly its just gonna take us to pass the baton to the next generation for this to stop being such a big stinkin bomb of an issue, right . It is true. Theres a huge age gradient. One of the biggest predictors of what we think about Climate Change is sadly, our age. Now, theres also the strongest correlation is with where we fall in the political spectrum. Not just one or the other, but what part of the spectrum were on. And, im sorry to tell you this, theres also a bit of a gender gap too. laughs there is and ive given up on there not being a gender gap on anything, so thats fine. But seriously, you must talk to you son, right, about this issue. If youre your sons mom, how do you not talk about this issue . Oh, i take him with me on half my trips. So are his perceptions of this different than what you wouldve expected . Does he arrive at conclusions that surprise you . Or is he simply parroting . No, what surprises me, he definitely processes the information and comes up with his own conclusions and what surprises me is his indignation and frustration when he sees people doing things that he just says are silly. Like why would you drive a gasguzzling vehicle . It just doesnt make sense. Why is that person doing that . So theres a whole new attitude and perspective on that just isnt cool anymore. I do think that things will be incredibly different with the new generation, but heres the issue that i run into with the Climate Science and that is the fact that we dont have 30 or 40 years. We cant wait for those nineyearolds . No. To become 39 or 49yearolds . No. We have to act now and that is why we need to find ways to act together where its okay if we dont agree on the science as long as we can agree on the solutions, thats the most important thing. It really is about individual choices as much as we talk about governments needing to bend in the direction of this or business bending in the direction of this. At the end of the day, it does get back to individual behavior and personal responsibility. I have a little pbs digital show called global weirding. Global weirding, i love that name. Yes, you can find it on youtube or on my facebook page, global weirding, and the little episode this week, theyre only about five minutes long, is about what each of us as individuals can do. So give us the kind of top line. Whats your best takeaway for people if theres one thing that people can do . The most important thing that each one of us can do is talk about it because studies have shown that we just dont talk about it. Were kinda scared to talk about it. We think we might start an argument with somebody. [evan] we know its controversial, wed rather avoid it . Exactly. So because of that, our concern levels are really not very high because we never talk about it. So thats the most important thing we can do is talk about it. Yeah. You spend how much time . Youre a professor at texas tech, you run the Atmospheric Science center, you have actually a number of responsibilities under the umbrella of your academic life that keep you certainly very busy, but youre also spending a lot of time, increasing amounts of time, out on the road. How much time are you spending out talking about it as you say . I added up, i think i gave about 55 talks last year, but i try to do as many of those talks as i can via video. Zero carbon and you can do a lot more. Oh my god, youre just on this constantly, arent you . laughing i have to be, yes. Well, i appreciate you modeling best practices for the rest of us. Katharine hayhoe, thank you for everything youre doing. Its a pleasure to hear from you and good luck in all your work. Thank you for having me. [evan] very good, thank you, good. applauding [narrator] wed love to have you join us at the studio. Visit our website at klru. Org overheard to find invitations to interviews, q and as with our audience and guests and an archive of past episodes. So we have discovered that Carbon Dioxide does indeed help plants grow, but it primarily helps weeds grow. It is not so helpful to crops. So were actually running into problems where weeds are flourishing and crops are getting taken over. [narrator] funding for overheard with evan smith is provided in part by the Alice KlebergReynolds Foundation and hillco partners, a texas Government Affairs consultancy and by klrus producers circle, ensuring local programming that reflects the character and interests of the greater austin, texas community. chimes