my furs term. she is up against the president of the professional firefighters. >> governor walker's policies. we need someone there not just with a rubber stamp but who will fight for the middle class citizens of our state. >> for the next hour we will go behind the scenes of the wisconsin election recall. you will hear from all four candidates you will meet the tea partyers who traveled if aer and wide to get their voices heard. democratic minority leader peter barca who is here to energize. the wisconsin battle how it will impact the presidential election. and we will tell you why one person thinks it is the second most important election of the year. welcome to our special on the record the wisconsin recall. first up craig gilbert of the sentinel joins us. >> thank you. >> take us back to how it all started. this is the first time they have had a recall. >> only the third time in american history it happened. he was swept into office with the republican legislature in 2010 and surprised a lot of people by announcing he was going to curb collective bargaining. it create add fur or on the left and among laborers set off protests and now recalls. >> did he ever say it in the race he intended it? when he was rudging for office -- running for office as governor did he talk about this? >> he talked about concessions and unions but didn't talk about going after kolt elective bargaining rights and union certification the way he did. it is shocking to people in his own party. >> in the midst of all of this to add more drama to it a number of democratic senators hit the road whether there would be a collective bargaining session. >> they went to illinois. in retrospect i think both parties thought it was a smart tactic. it could have been a two-or three-day battle and then forgotten. it resulted in a protracted impasse and raised the temperature then you had hundreds of thousands of people and that led to the recall movement and more recalls any state has ever seen in history. >> a lot of us went in when we saw people taking over the state capital and see the video of people. who won? not talking about the recall but the collective bargaining battle? >> the governor won. he had the power to implement his agenda. he got it done. they had to live with changes that not only i think create less incentive for employees to join unions because they cannot collective bargain but make it harder for unions to survive. they have to recertify every year the un downdues the ball el is still waged in court but it was a huge set back. >> in terms of the application of what happened are the communities better off fiscally or is it too soon to see how it has shaken out in terms of the economic impact? >> it is the core of the debate in the gubernatorial election. experience varies from city to city and community to community. it depends on what kind her getting whether they sign contracts before the collective bargaining rules changed or not. it's the legacy left behind for schools and taxes payers. in the primary in the fall are they out supporting the mayor? >> they are out there working very motivated to try to recall the governor. they are working hard. there has been some division at different levels in the union movement it was the democratic party over the tactics over how to do this and whether it was the right thing to do or not. they are working and trying to send the governor home. >> you look at protests then you look at the numbers of the people who came out during the primary and signing the recall petition do you get the sense that the level of enthusiasm you saw a year ago by the democrats was there at the primary? >> june 5th will answer the question for us. but the way people turned out for scott walker in a token primary it's a long time for democrats and people in the union movement to keep that fire burning. this has been going on for 15 months. i think that there will be -- both sides are energized but in terms of who has the energy, who has the turnout advantage we will find out. >> in the campaign if there are a lot of signs up people are knocking on doors do you have that sort of heavy energy in the race where people have a little tape? >> i think some people have fatigue. this has been going on for a long time. from wisconsin i think i would be voting six times this year. there were legislative recalls last summer. there was a round of 4 along with gubernatorial recall. the elections war is predicting a huge turnout almost at presidential levels. if that happens there won't be recall fatigue. >> thank you. >> it's a pleasure. >> governor scott walker says he's a poet and owes him an apology. tom barrett accused walker of pushing the books. job growth numbers are way above estimate. they have shown governor walker as numbers saying jobs crew by 23 thousand last year. we have spoke with governor walker. >> it is literally a 57,000 plus increase from where my opponents are claiming the numbers were last year. their numbers were based on a sample of 3 and a half percent of the employers in the united states. they showed job loss instead. these were actual numbers taken from surveys over 150,000 plus employers across the state. that's 96 percent plus of all of the employers of wisconsin. that shows real data. those are the real numbers. they showed we gave more than 23 thousand jobs last year. 33,000 since i have been elected. that is good news for all in wisconsin moving forward. >> i am reading most of my information from the milwaukee journal sentinel. it is a big pool in which you had a net gain of 23 thousand as opposed to the older numbers which showed a loss of 33,000. when you ran for office even as recently as last week at the republican convention you found 250,000, 23 thousand is the right direction but that's not 250,000. the term is not over but what do you say about this? >> we promised one. we promised -- created a veteran's market for the people. we said we would do it by 2015 by changing the business environment. we have been doing that. it will compound. you can appreciate it was a backers when vince lombardi took over the packers they were 10-1. they didn't go to the world championship the first year he was a coach they went after several years of him setting the foundation of success. he lowered property taxes. changed the high cost of litigation regulation and better business environment. our chamber of commerce did a survey two years ago 10 percent headed in the right direction. now 94 percent we are headed in that right dikts today in 2012. 87 percent say they are going to add more jobs in 2012. the biggest concern they have is the recall. they don't want to go back to the days when we had double budget deficits and tawe want t take the foundation we have built and go forward. >> the owner of one show the green bay packers. let me tell you what mayor tom barrett who was your opponent this is what he said. the announcement isn't about the best way to calculate job growth in wisconsin this is about scott walker political stunt to save his own job. gis he doesn't-- i guess he doe agree with you. >> it was a desperate campaign. it would save on a billion dollars for the taxpayers when he said he would lower income property tax he lowered it for the first time in is it years. we have $154 million surplus. putting money aside in the rainy day funned the first time ever. now with jobs they said we didn't have a net gain of jobs, we have. it's a 57,000 plus job turn arounded. the facts are the facts. barrett and supporters can say anything they want about the process but they cannot undermine the fact that more than 150,000 employers by law are require to do provide that information to the state. we are provide -- require to do provide to the bureau of labor and statistics. >> this is an interesting poll. one that was in the milwaukee journal of sentinel above the intensity gap. 91 percent of republicans said they are certain to vote for you in a recall. 83 percent democrats say they are certain to vote. i thought after watching all of the protests in wisconsin whether protesting in collective bargaining a number of people appearing in madison taking out the capital i am surprised the intensity gap between republican voters and democratic voters is even as it is. >> well it is part of the recall. there are a lot of democrats on the margin out there who realize it is a big waste of time and money. 16 almost $17 million out of the tax payer's pocket that could otherwise be spent lowering taxes or providing relief for seniors in education. you see it wasted by the folks who want to rehash the last election. we are ready to move it forward. the people who came out when i hardly had essentially noncompetitive primary our numbers match that and the top two vote getters on the democratic side. i think there are a lot of people out there who for the last year and a half have been sitting on the side lines that now said you know what i don't need a bull horn or protest i can have my voice be heard at the ballot box. my hope is they will join scott walker.org and get the word out between now and june 5th so we can win in that election just like november 2010. >> has the recall process changed you in any way in the sense that you decide to be more con sill tory on certain issues or is there any way you start responding different in any way? >> no doubt about it. i wouldn't change all i do is write it. the results have been positive for the hard-working in the state. i think it has been positive to make sure you have a good process. if i had it to do over again i would stick to the foundation for support. if i told voters taxpayers last year that most school districts in our state had to buy their health insurance before our reforms without being able to vet it out instead because of that had to spend literally cost them 10 he s of millions of dol they put more money in the classroom and making sure they have health insurance moat voters would have said yes, you need to do that. i tried to fix it then i talked about it. most politicians talk about it but never fix it. i will pick fixing it every time. you need to pauk about it and fix it. >> the voters are not the only ones watching the recall result. the entire nation will be on the state. we talk to do governor walker about that. the implication of what happens here in r with regards to the national election. it really is a microcosm of the state of wisconsin is very much like america. not just in the past year and a half you go back to 2000 and 2004 it's a good example. we are almost evenly divided for years we have almost been evenly divided between democrats and republicans. we have diverse areas urban areas and rural as well. what you sees a question of people who want like i did in 2010 a broad based message that is optimistic and is about empowering -- overwhelmingly empowering middle class in our state and business owners putting people to work and putting them back in charge. success in government about how many people can get signed up for government assistance, unemployment, or is it just the opposite the you casuccess of p on unemployment how many people are free from being dependent on government. i want to be the state and the country where success is measured how many people control their own destiny. >> what do you think the chances are wisconsin becomes a battle grown -- growned stat -- ground? >> we had 2 and a half million votes cast only a couple thousand was the difference between the two presidential candidates. months ago a lot of people would have written this off because of the recall. focused not just on personality but more so on policy and substance. after these recall elections people are going to look closely on each of the candidates for president and say who is the person who will stand up with the taxpayers. >> the wisconsin recall election is a rematch. tom barrett taking on scott walker. walker defeated barrett by 5 percent in that governor's race. we spoke with mayor barrett. >> what is your analogy between the turn around in favor and win the site? >> we know this is an unusual election. i don't know if any modeling has been done to reflect how unusual this election is. i don't think anybody knows exactly who will come out and vote. we have seen a tight race. we think the race is going to be tight. no question to who can raise more out of state dollars scott walker can win. he has raised 10s of millions of dollars from out of state donors. that raises a question. when you raise that money if you become the rock star of the far right. he traveled this country and he has been the tea party favorite. it allowed member to bring in 10's of thousands of dollars. i am not going to be the rock star of the far right or the far let i. going to be rock solid. we need a governor that works to create jobs. >> the governor's job is on the line june 5th. so is lieutenant governor rebeccacally fish's job. you will hear from governorcally clay fish and her opponent l. they pack a punch on election night. we will talk with tea party leaders in wisconsin. everybody is talking about the recall result that could set the stage for november. karl rove is here to tell you why you should care about wisconsin no matter where you live. follow the wings. 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[ dennis ] mayhem is everywhere. so get an allstate agent. are you in good hands? rebecca kleefisch. >> scott walker he is job since the recall. rebecca kleefisch is also fighting for her state. we spoke with lieutenant governor kleefisch about her recall battle. >> do you 100 percent agree with governor walker on every issue? >> not every issue. probably not. but i don't think for a second we have discussed every issue under the sun. i think in most cases we do agree but that's part of the importance of having a really good relationship between your governor and lieutenant governor. that's why our legislature decided they should have left the governor and lieutenant governor as a ticket which is how we were elected to a two-year term. as you know our government accountability and our attorney general has rules that the governor and i are being recalled separately. they have a choice of forward or backward in both of these cases not just in strenggovernor's ra lieutenant governor's race. >> you could be elected or re-elected however you want to call it on june 5th governor walker could lose and you could be the lieutenant governor of a dpem krat being governor. i suspect you are going to win or lose together. but that's the way it has developed that could theoretically happen? >> spouse it could. i haven't spent any time thinking about it because i don't think it's going to happen. i think governor scott walker is going to continue to be the head of the executive branch of the state of wisconsin. >> your opponent mitchell says you are simply a rubber stamp of the governor. i suppose you have a response. what's your response? >> i don't know that we need to spend a lot of time on it. we have a good partnership a good team in the executive branch. you want the governor lieutenant governor who are working well together. i want a governor who entrusts me with big responsibilities. you know johnson and the economy making sure that we have a trained work force in order to take those jobs those are the two biggest priorities we have in this administration and among taxpayers and job creators and hard-working families we listen to every single day. that's where i spend my time. the governor appointed me as jobs ambassador. i have been meeting with them and how to create jobs how we can work together on it. but i also spened my time developing plans in order to connect more job interest in jobs and assuring our job seekers have the skills they need for employers to hire them. >> governor walker said he fished in going back to the collective bargaining that he wished he communicated more with the people. looking back i realize you were in the fire on this one have you had a chance to look at the first part of the term see how you might have done things differently? >> i think governor walker has an eye to the correct answer. you and i spent a lot of time talking to a lot of folks from different outlets from arounded the country last year about what was going on in wisconsin and why we are having the protests. we have had big reforms. the problems of the past and the future. when we came to a $3.6 billion budget deficit come from the past. you look into the future and you saw the cost drivers of pensions. we had it coming at us in both ways. we wanted to make sure we were preserving tax payer's desire to do a budget without raising taxes. could we have sold the case longer and made sure people understood there was a need not just a want for this but a need for this, yes, absolutely. i think the governor is dead on in describing it like this. >> public safety in this case can a union head bishop is on the record that's next. >> paul ryan says courage is on the balance in his state. what does he mean by that? we will tell you coming up. 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( grunts ) cool. you can video call on skype... send photos. yeah, okay. ah, let's do it. get $100 off any motorola 4g lte smartphone, like the droid 4 now just $99.99. verizon. some goodbyes are worth fighting for. help the marine corps scholarship foundation honor marines by educating their children at mcsf.org. >> lieutenant governor rebecca kleefisch going head to head with a union leader. mitchell is president of the professional firefighter's of wisconsin. we spoke with the democratic challenger about the issue at the heart of the recall battle collective bargaining. >> with collective bargaining it's about working conditions. for instance leaving a firefighter we don't just talk about wages. at ours we talk about how to be safe as a firefighter the we are gee wear and the fire trucks we ride on to protect our community. if you look at employee protections for instance in illinois lift out wisconsin women who have to wear dresses. they have to wear high heels. it is not just for hours and wages it's about working conditions and public safety. >> my question was a little bit more directed. you talk about safety in firefighters. if i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong, this new provision in collective bargaining accepted firefighters and police officers we are talking about other public workers. >> that's not necessarily true. we work with act 10 in the current form. we are hit by state aid. i was in wisconsin yesterday had to layoff five firefighters. we had to layoff five firefighters for a cut in state aid. it effects us. scott walker is putting in place does effect fire and police and in turn effects public safety. >> when gfrn another wa governo had a 3.6 budget deficit he had to deal with. he advised by the constitution or the law in the city of wisconsin submitted a balanced budget. if this were a yier ago and you were the lieutenant governor working with a democratic governor what would you have done differently to bridge that gap? >> what i wouldn't do is give tax breaks to corporations in january. over the next ten years it will be massive tax cuts in corporations. what i wouldn't have done is upped the taxes. it gives tax breaks in january but come february he has to balance the budgets on citizens on education on our kids. on teachers nurses firefighters, janitors, snowplow drivers. that's what we wouldn't do. we need a budget that has true shared sacrifice. we talked about shared sacrifice. right now we sacrifice and they share the wealth. >> i take it for the purpose of these tax breaks i haven't seen them. that would attract business in the state and focus on jobs. is that what the purpose is? >> yes. we need corporations in our state. we need industry in our stated. we need businesses in our state. but we need true shared sacrifice. in tax breaks fine p. tax breaks without any accountability to create jobs is when we have a problem. you have to give back to the community in order to get a tax break. that is what we are not saying. tax breaks with no accountability. >> any idea what the cost savings has been with collective bargaining? i am not taking a side on this i am trying to understand what the number is. has governor walker put out a number of how much money he has recouped or recovered or somehow refined from this? >> i have not seen those numbers, greta. remember last year when you talk about cost savings when you talk about collective bargaining and cost saving it's not just about cost. it's about hours and working conditions and public safety. if you remember lags year the union is affected conceded to concessions for healthcare and also the pensions. he has to go further. there is no doubt in my mind when he talks about divide and conquer two weeks ago that's what he was trying to do last year. divide and conquer our state. in his own words wasn'ted to drop a bomb on our state. that's what he was doing. this is not about collective bargaining it's about governor walker trying to take over our state and divide and conquer our state in years to come. would you like president obama to come into wisconsin and campaign. he took the state by 12 or 14 points. would he be helpful? >> i believe he would be helpful. he has a huge, huge busy agenda. >> he's doing some campaigning. he's doing campaigning for himself. he's done fundraising. would it be good if he helped you? >> i love president obama. what we are looking at now is working with people in the state and talking to people. get the message out there and that's what we are talking about now. if is not going away. the recall effort will put the power to the test. what are tea party leaders doing to influence the election. what cock a game saver in this tight race? wisconsin assembly minority leader answers that question. you have to hear what he says coming up. [ male announcer ] we began with the rx. ♪ then we turned the page, creating the rx hybrid. ♪ now we've turned the page again with the all-new rx f sport. this is the next chapter for lexus. this is the pursuit of perfection. recently, students from 31 countries took part in a science test. the top academic performers surprised some people. so did the country that came in 17th place. let's raise the bar and elevate our academic standards. let's do what's best for our students-by investing in our teachers. let's solve this. throughout our entire lives. ♪ one a day women's 50+ is a complete multi-vitamin designed for women's health concerns as we age. ♪ it has more of seven antioxidants to support cell health. that's one a day women's 50+ healthy advantage. with features like scanning a barcode to get detailed stock quotes to voice recognition. e-trade leads the way in wherever, whenever investing. download the ultimate in mobile investing apps, free, at e-trade. >> i am harris falkner. all 153 people aboard a nigerian airliner have died. the plane crash in the city of lagos. the flight coming in from nigeria's capital is close to landing. it hit a 2 story building in a populated area. rescue workers say there were more victims on the ground. it is not yet known how many were killed. the pilots called the tower to say they were having engine trouble. good news coming out of the fight of the massive wildfire in mexico. burned nearly 377 square miles the largest wildfire in history there. a ray of light is people who were forced to leave their homes in one small town allowed to go back tomorrow. they are building containment lines to protect their towns. i am harris falkner. now back to the wisconsin recall with greta van susteren. >> wisconsin recall election is a tense one. the recall election will be seen as a test of tea parties during wisconsin. they pack a punch in their state. jenkins went to find out. >> we are encouraging people to vote and protect democracy. >> this has turned into a national story where we of course saw all of the protests and the change in the capitol last january. you guys were there. >> we were here with our tea party group who are in wisconsin and we watched what happened as the unions and liberal groups started marching arounded the capitol. >> the party movement isn't quite as strong as it was in 2010 with healthcare. what's going on with you guys? >> clearly that's wrong. we had our idea raised $12 million in the last fiscal year. we had hundreds of people here in wisconsin from arounded the country and people who are calling doing virtual phone banking. we haven't gone away. we have gotten more sophisticated and smarter. >> what are you guys doing? >> we are going door to door knocking on doors the absolute best way to talk to voters to get your message out in face-to-face contact. >> when you are talking to folks here what is the sentiment? the democratic senators left the state and reached a bit of a fever pitch. what are people saying now in terms of what the sentiment is on the street? >> i think things have calmed down a little bit. they have seen the world didn't end. changes happen and mistakes may have been made or not but what they have seen is that the b budget is balanced. if they don't like it the next election is really two years from now. it's not that far away. hopefully we prevail it's not about walker it's about when you have elections they have consequences. if you don't like it wait until the following real election not the professional recall. how significant is this election, this recall election to your national goal which is obviously november? >> i think it's very important. it's going to set the stage and the momentum from here going on into november. >> what is the number one issue with wisconsin tea party groups that you guys are again the umbrella that you have nationwide with the wisconsin tea parties the way they faced focusing on other than obviously the recall election? >> they are going to get through this. they have been in campaign mode for the last two and a half years. hopefully it willen end all of e recalls in the state. they will be focused on what happens with the general election in going forward. >> let's talk about who is your opponent in that? >> as far as the primary opponent i think it really is the special interests on the left. the unions, the occupied movement. those are the opponents in this election by and large. let me ask you should things change and the polls shift and barrett wins how will that impact you and what you are trying to do? >> if that happens i think we will see the left will be energized they will be excited going into the next few months leading into the national conventions and the elections, but it's not going to stop us. we are going to keep working no matter what they say. we are going to go on and save the country. >> republican governor scott walker survive the recall election. some democrats worry he will. some nuss wisconsin democrats. spoke with minority leader peter farka. >> we have had close ones in wisconsin with senator gore senator kerry. president obama won by a big margin but it could be one of the closest races in wisconsin history. >> democrats seem to be losing a l little bit of their interest in the recall. how do you feel? >> people are still very energized. i think you will see a huge turnout. it will be very interesting. some predict i could have turnout post pelection level. we feel our values are at stake. wisconsin values have been disregarded. >> rid in the wall street journal that wisconsin democrats didn't get 5,000 dollars. i found through research that schultz is coming out to do a fundraiser before the recall. what is the story? is washington helping you guys or are you on your own? >> washington has been helpful. they are becoming even more helpful as we close into the last couple weeks of the race. we expect that as the money is there and there has been more interest you are going to see a huge turnout. that is what it is all about. it is all about voters who show up at the polls. it's not about who has the ri richest friends and the most billionaires. >> is there a game changer between now and june 10th that would change this? >> i think by far the most important thing will be boots on the ground, getting people active so they actually show up at the polls. now the other issue, though, is this is a first governor in the history of our state that put together a criminal defense fund because about a dozen of the people who worked for him that come under investigation and some have been indicted some have been given immunity in exchange for testifying obviously if something would break there that would be a total game changer as well. the governor has scrambled that reputation. paul ryan the recall the second most important election next to the presidential election. why is this so important? the wisconsin congressman next. wisconsin congressman, next. i'm robert shapiro. over a million people have discovered how easy it is to use legalzoom for important legal documents. so start your business, protect your family, launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com, we put the law on your side. mcallen, texas. in here, heavy rental equipment in the middle of nowhere, is always headed somewhere. to give it a sense of direction, at&t created a mobile asset solution to protect and track everything. so every piece of equipment nows where it is, how it's doing or where it goes next. ♪ this is the bell on the cat. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪ >> greta: whicwisconsin congren paul ryan says courage is on ee>> paul ryan says courage is on the ballot in the wisconsin elt election. what else does he say about the tightly contested race? here is paul ryan. >> they have to spend something like 40 million in wisconsin between now and june 5th when the recall is. it will be a massive effort a big fight. i think scott is going to win? you know why? the reforms are working. >> they are almost a million signatures for recall. >> sure. >> reporters and judges are signing the recall petitions. more to the point i met with the school district superintendent in a small district i represent just the other day because of scott walker's reforms she saved $1.6 million just in her school district on being able to put health insurance out forbid because she doesn't have to use teacher union monopoly insurance plans any more. she saved $1.6 million. she put the reforms in the classroom that make education better because of these reforms. these walker reforms didn't require massive layoffs of teachers and other workers. they didn't require cutting government services and helped balance the budget without raising taxes. >> if i were governor walker had the con dpins you had the recall petition had so many signatures on it. when i was doing reporting on it i had an e-mail from a friend of mine from a teacher at university of wisconsin practically took my skin off she was so angry. there is real anger. >> as people learn the facts and learn how the freerms are working not just at the state level but the local level i think by and large they are not going to vote to recall. injury call over a policy dispute i don't think is called for. if people don't like what scott walker did which is what he said he would do when he campaigned i think in the normal course of elections they should vote for somebody else. >> outside money coming into the state? >> i image so. >> interesting how this has become sort of a national election. >> it was said in one of the major news parps this is the most important election this year after the presidential election. courage is on the ballot. who has the courage to address the constructionnal problems of their state when they do that this is what happens to them. that is really profound. scott is taking on the drivers of the teblg in wisconsin just as we are taking on the drivers of our debt in washington. we are going to be attacked by political ad ver sar res. they are not offering solutions but more borrowing and spending. wisconsin is expected to be a trend setter. why is the entire nation looking to the state? karl rove is here to tell you next. that's next. 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[dumbfounded] well, we... doesn't last long does it? listen. 5-hour energy lasts a whole lot of hours. so you can get a lot done without refills. it's packed with b-vitamins and nutrients to make it last. so don't just stand there holding your lattes, boys. make your move. we'll take the 5-hour energy. smart move. 5-hour energy. hours and hours of energy. >> all eyes are on the great state of wisconsin as they expect a national trend in this presidential election year. why is it wisconsin? we asked karl rove. >> generwalker is positioned to the question is by how much. the bigger the victory the bigger the impact. three impacts first of all will be whether or not the wisconsin experiment of bringing into power collective bargaining rights and certain public employee unions and having transparency in retirement benefits and equality of public sector and private sector benefits. that's a big experiment. it's a model for the rest of the country. if he survives other states will be emboldened to take up this banner of reform the second thing it will have a big impact on determining what kind of wisconsin there is in november. are we at the wisconsin in 2008 in which there was a 14 point victory or will we have the wisconsin of 20000 and 2004 gore carried them by 5,000 votes. john kerry carried it by less than half of a percentage point. a very competitive presidential race and slightly smaller victory by walker would indicate the state is more like 2000 and 2004 an won't be in the battle ground listenings. it will have a big impact on organized labor. they have put a huge amount of money into the election. last year and this year and we will see how good that investment comes out here. thanks for being with us. we will continue to bring you the latest developments leading up to the wisconsin recall election. stay with us through election night we will bring you all of the results as they come in. we will impact the entire nation. right now greta.com let us know what you are -- greta wire.com. thank you for watching the most powerful name in news. >> live and at large i am geraldo rivera. they lit candles in churches to remember trayvon martin and to praise the rerays of george zimmerman the man who killed the unarmed teen about three months ago. this is zimmerman's latest mug shot taken this afternoon after he heard from six weeks of hiding along the highway. >> approximately 1:25 today george zimmerman met members of the sheriff's office and at i 4. was placed into custo