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It can be folded and easily transported and this is a fullfledged additional sleeping place just spread the stopper mattress on the floor forget about crazy expenses for new furniture forget about bulky expensive mattresses order mattress stopper casper ortholight at a special Promotional Price of only uah 999 casper ortholight mattress stopper your Healthy Sleep and instant furniture renewal at a good price call welcome to this exclusive interview on espresso my name is yuri fizer and my guest today is the plenipotentiary and extraordinary ambassador of the United States of america in russia in 20112014, as well as the director of the Freeman Institute in the field of International Studies at Stanford University, Michael Mcfall, we will talk with him about a lot of things , but mostly, unfortunately about russia about the war that russia started last year and has been waging for more than a year and a half about our victory we stand i congratulate you p maxil and thank you for joining thank you for the invitation we will talk mainly about russia and its brutal war that putin started in february 2022 and also about our victory, not only about this, well, uh, noty bak just uh, the world so mafy question, in 2001, you wrote an interesting book that i bought and read , the book is called the unfinished revolution in russia, political changes from gorbachev to putin changes took place, but why was there no revolution . This is a complex, big question that is difficult to answer. When i wrote this book in 2001 , it was after ten or even 15 years, if you count the gorbachev period of political transformations in the soviet union and then russia , something was achieved then, or we ourselves this is what they thought, first of all the collapse of the soviet empire took place and 15 countries including ukraine and the Russian Federation gained their independence and compared to other collapses of the empire it was relatively peaceful at least until the past year, and secondly, they made the transition from a predominantly commandadministrative economy to the market, but in this book i wrote that the transition from dictatorship to democracy took place, but it was ambiguous, and it is a little disturbing that in this book, where i consider various elements, i said that democracy in russia was not consolidated and it is tragic that now two decades later we see that putin took advantage of these weak democratic institutions, he destroyed them today i am witnessing the return of the russian dictatorship i think it was in advance it is known that this would happen if, for example, Boris Nemtsov became the next president of russia, because there were plans to anoint him as boris yetsins successor, the tradition could have gone the other way, but in retrospect there is no doubt that these institutions were too weak, too fragile in 2000, when putin came to power and this allowed him to actually destroy george. Okay, take it easy, you know him quite well. Is the putin of 2000 different from the putin of today . Thats a great question. My answer is yes and no. About 2000 there was antidemocratic, however, he was not like that from the very beginning. I wrote my first article about putin in 2000, warning the world about his antidemocratic actions. He was always an imperialist, he mourned the collapse of the soviet union. He, from the kgb, answered all his life defending the soviet empire, but 20 years ago he was much more promarket and prowestern on market reforms he lowered individual income tax and moved russia to a flat tax of 13 he lowered corporate taxes and prevailed private property is no longer the case, he restored strict state control over the economy, especially after the invasion of your country for the second time. Once he was open to cooperation from the west. He even talked about russia joining nato. Nato and he was forced to invade ukraine due to the expansion of the north atlantic alliance, but 20 years ago he was not afraid of nato, he wanted to join the alliance and even said about ukraine in 2002 that if ukraine wants to join nato, that is their business, not our so that in these two aspects he has changed his thinking significantly and the last day he has become a much more nationalistic patriot who allegedly professes conservative orthodox religious values, i would not call it conservatism but it is something that did not exist 25 years ago, he has changed. I think that one of the main drivers were that he became more authoritarian in order to fear his people and therefore he needed an external enemy to justify his authoritarianism with antiwestern and antiukrainian; secondly, he is afraid not of nato expansion but of democratic expansion in in 2000, georgia, in 2003, most importantly, the orange revolution in your country was a threat to his authoritarian way of ruling, and of course later the revolution of dignity became an even greater threat, but not to russian security, and here i want to make it clear for 1941, from the time when hitler invaded the soviet there was no military threat to the union from the west against russia , and business in forever in democracy threatened putins rule inside russia , that russians need a strong state, russians do not need western ways of governing because that they are different, i remember how in 2011 i was at a meeting with him. And then Vice President biden, and he talked for a long, long time about the fact that russia is not part of europe, is not part of the defense, he says that ukrainians are not a separate nation that you its just russians with an accent that ukraine has become an independent state, this is another one of his very strange arguments, if ukrainians practice democracy, slavic peoples can do this to putin. I think this has become his obsession with your country in the first place, and also with my country, the enemy from outside in order to legitimize his dictatorship at home and he found this enemy, unfortunately uafeng, you are sometimes called the architect of president obamas reset policy regarding russia, this was 1015 years ago, you really believed that relations with the kremlin at that time could change the language i think that there is a lot of misunderstanding of what we were trying to do then in 2009 we sat in the white house and determined our National Security interests and the highest priority one of those priorities was the need to cooperate with by the kremlin, then president medvedev, and by the way, in 2009 he was radically different from the crazy medvedev that he has become today, it is very important to understand that he was completely different, well, i will give a few examples , in 2009, the treaty on the elimination of medium and shortrange missiles expired and president obama decided that the u. S. Military service corresponds to the National Interests of the United States and that without the russians it is impossible to negotiate arms control, so he said that we need to negotiate with them and the plane signed a new treaty on sno3 dsn o in 2010 reducing Nuclear Weapons in the world by 30 a friend he decided that we should stop iran from obtaining Nuclear Weapons and for this he wanted to introduce multilateral sanctions against iran it is debatable that this was the right decision but obama wanted to impose multilateral sanctions for this russia had to vote with us which they did by the way at the meeting of the Un Security Council in the 10th year we decided to lead our troops into afghanistan in an effort to defeat terrorism there we were also going to fight terrorism outside the borders of afghanistan including in pakistan but at that time 95 of our supplies went through pakistan so president obama had the idea that we needed to diversify our supply routes to afghanistan and that meant going through russia through the socalled the Northern Distribution Network we had to negotiate with the russians and by the way we violated the sovereignty of pakistan in 2011 and killed bin laden himself we could only do this through diversification i think that many people misunderstand our desire to have good relations with russia, although other wars are possible. I dont even believe that our allies believed in this, like me. We should not choose mood music or a positive attitude towards the country as our goal, the goal should be specific tasks that advance National Interests, in the case of my ukraine, the interests of the United States, so for a certain time we did so. This is how it ended, of course, for two reasons firstly, putin returned and he was not interested in cooperating with us, and secondly the masses fought back against the demonstrations against the putin regime in 11 and 12 years, and putin accused us and me personally of these demonstrations, and as a result, cooperation on other issues such as iran or north korea or even syria, which was being repaired in 1213 years , turned out to be impossible with putin, who was in the kremlin. Kill about the russians, because you know them very well, since you lived in moscow for 4 years. Why, according to some estimates, 8590 of russians support putin, is it because they are afraid of him, or maybe they are fascinated by his imperialist ideas, or maybe they just dont care why action os in differenty news why its hard to answer your question because its hard to understand what people really think in authoritarian countries its possible to remember that you cant do a real poll in a country like russia or in any dictatorship because people are afraid say what they really believe they have no incentive to say whats on their mind and secondly i got the impression that putin his horrible barbaric invasion of your country has a lot of support frankly i am not surprised, but deeply disappointed, this is not just putins war in ukraine, this is the war of the russians in ukraine. We must admit that this is not a oneman war, that putin does not control everything in it. Putin does not kidnap your children, he does not rape your daughters and mothers, it is done by individual russians i think it is very important to understand that it is the russians who kill and the russians who commit these crimes against humanity and not only Vladimir Putin regarding your other question. It is definitely true that propaganda and repression work well, so there were some slave russians who protested at the beginning, some of them are serving 25 year prison terms, for example, volodya kamurza, whom i know well in yashin, they criticized the war and are now in prison, and this deters other russians from protesting. There are russians who support this war and imperial ideas then when i live in russia in the 90s, i would never have thought that they are capable of revival of stalinism propaganda on the part of putin, this is not deeply disappointing, but there is another segment of Russian Society that simply lowered its head, but not against them, and aside from these people instantly change their minds if they change the condition if putin says to end the war, it is interesting where russian potion said in an interview with a ukrainian channel that russians are unfortunately used to the war used to the war and y they are used to supporting it and putin present putting of course we will win for putin will lose for a while, but those russians who are used to war will remain. Do you think this could become a problem for both ukraine and the western allies . Yes, i think it is a big problem. And that is why i believe that the western world, the democratic world, should do a lot more to make them pay the price for supporting this war i work with Andriy Yermak from the office of the president in the working group on International Sanctions that the western democratic world should increase sanctions so that people feel the war more directly, in particular it is said that too many components from the west are involved in the production weapons in russia and this must stop too Many Russians who have not been sanctioned work for companies and Political Parties that support the war, therefore the sanctions need to be expanded too comfortably for the russians traveling to supposedly hostile countries is the world to stop 360 billion dollars that were frozen in the Russian Central Bank must be transferred for the reconstruction of ukraine so that the russians feel the consequences of the war they support so in my opinion this is the first step then in the long term the defeat of putins army in your the country needs it in order for people to finally reject their imperial ambitions , sometimes in 1991 they failed to do this, there is a big difference between germany and the year 44 and in russia in 1991, Boris Yeltsin tried to put the communist party on trial, but there was not enough support. So they never had remorse, they never had an awareness of the evil that soviet imperialism carried. Unfortunately, until putin loses this war inside russia, this process will not begin what is putin most afraid of right now what could be the weakness of his rule and again a great question to which i unfortunately do not have a great answer but i think there are a few important things that i would like to say about putin and his brevity that putin a match that cannot be cornered, he would need the space of those who say that he needs Ukrainian Land to end the war, i do not agree with this, then he is not as desperate as people think of him, several examples come to mind when he was pressured , but instead of escalating, he retreated for several years, warned putin to stop flying his planes to syria through turkish territory, in the end, he got fed up with it, shot down one of these planes, putin told you a lot, but as a result, nothing he didnt do it and he only saw it. Brics took place in south africa. The fact that putin sent lavrov there and he spoke online shows that he is afraid of the Un International criminal court. We dont see a comrade who defies the west. We see a coward who is afraid of the west. It should happen that putin should not be afraid if you can boldly challenge him and eventually drive him away. So the answer to your question is that i think that he is most afraid of losing crimea, he is afraid of transferring the war in crimea to our country and not to his. Thats what he fears the most because it would undermine the legitimacy of his war in russia, lead him to a dead end, amen, the ability to get crimea became a threatening consequence for his regime , another question about the chinese government, because their attitude to the russian war in ukraine at certain moments is very unclear and ambiguous of time why do you think this is the case, what is the Autocratic Alliance against the democratic world, of course, it is not about a formal alliance, but about a partnership that is primarily fueled by antagonism towards the United States of america chinas support for russia was moderate. All xi jinping do not support the war. They supported putin and russia at the un general assembly, and china was not among them. He abstains from military aid. He behaves very carefully because he wants to avoid the disease himself. Running even in 2014 did not recognize the annexation of crimea how little china has done for russia is surprising i give credit to your president and your diplomats for smart diplomacy with china that keeps it on on the sidelines, how would china get the west and condemn this war, i dont think it will happen, however, maintaining chinese neutrality is a very worthy goal that ukrainian diplomats managed to achieve, the last question for today, i want to thank all americans and all european allies for the support we receive from you thanks to this with help and support, our courageous soldiers are fighting on the front lines and recapturing our territories. But we often hear calls from the west about the need to sit down at the negotiating table with the russians. Table with russians, what does this mean . The west is getting tired of the war in ukraine. We need to find out what is included in the concept of protecting europe. They support you much more than others here in the usa. To zelenskiy to negotiate with the russians, im not talking about grandma, look at the usa and they are criticizing for giving to ukraine, dont forget that next year we have president ial elections, all the republicans who will run against President Biden will actively criticize the republicans, now there is donald trump hors is max, who, of course, supports financial and military aid to ukraine much less than President Biden. That is, you touched on a question that also worries me, what to do. And you, you need to do more than more weapons, better weapons and as soon as possible this is the fastest way to end this war i would say the same about sanctions more sanctions stronger sanctions and as soon as possible this is the way to victory where you can speed up the process of ending the war guarantees prolonging the war when i hear lets do more now to hasten the end of putins barbaric invasion ukraine thank you very much mr. Ambassador for taking the time for us thank you for answering my questions this was Michael Mcfall director of the Freeman Institute in the field of International Relations at Stanford University the Us Ambassador to russia in in 201114, they talked about a lot of things, but mostly about russia , about our victory over the aggressor and how they help us bring this victory closer. Meeting ten on the clock time to find out what is happening in ukraine and the world at this time khrystyna parubiy is working in the studio another tragic page in the history of our people every year on the second sunday of september they celebrate the day of remembrance of ukrainians victims of forced eviction from lemkiv oblast education kholm oblast southern podlasie oblast lyubachiv oblast and western boykivshchyna on september 9, 1944, the ussr and poland concluded an agreement on the socalled Mutual Exchange of population
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